Home Sweet Home ... are TiddlyWikiDev & TiddlyWikiDocs worth keeping?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

After a while chickens land ...

As far as i can see THIS group covers EVERYTHING TiddlyWiki.

The groups TiddlyWikiDocs & TiddlyWikiDev seem very peripheral. Are they NEEDED?

The flipside  is that often here dicussion is HIGHLY TECHNICAL conversations that some visitor looking to be able to get a bit of software to be able to write a memo to grandma would find far too much.

I have a suggestion.

1 - DUMP TiddlyWikiDocs & TiddlyWikiDev

2 - START a TiddlyWikiNewbie that contains ONLY info for beginners

In any case the current situation with the groups is more platitude than reality. HERE is the hub. Any OTHER group should be the HUB INTRO. IMO. Get rid of redundancy.

Best wishes
Josiah

[c pa]

>> DUMP TiddlyWikiDocs & TiddlyWikiDev
These 2 groups experience periodic spurts of activity when clever folks get into really deep discussions that are off the general topic

>>START a TiddlyWikiNewbie that contains ONLY info for beginners

Because TiddlyWiki is such a complex and functional product, making a distinction between newbie and "not newbie" questions is very hard since newbies often ask questions that require a tech answer. In the process newbies experience expanded horizons

[Arlen Beiler]

I feel like putting a plug in here for the Area51 proposal for a dedicated TiddlyWiki Stack Exchange site. It's in the commit stage now, so all you have to do is sign in and commit. It will help the proposal if you use the same account you use on the rest of the stack exchange network if you have 200+ rep on another site. 

https://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/105326/tiddlywiki?referrer=kk4xS6VP59WB49QQOgt7xA2

Not to get off topic, though. Just a reminder. Keep going. But hey, that would be one solution :)

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[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Arlen

One of the pains with StackExchange is the hoops you have to go through. I thought I voted already? Now I have to do it AGAIN? This process is slower than a snail with a heavy weight on its back :-).

Best wishes
Josiah

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao c pa

I wrote ...

>>START a TiddlyWikiNewbie that contains ONLY info for beginners

 

c pa replied:

Because TiddlyWiki is such a complex and functional product, making a distinction between newbie and "not newbie" questions is very hard ...

I agree IF the newbie is a "customiser". Then they are on the road to becoming a DIY addict like US--and need to go through the hell of it.

I was thinking more that most "newbies" are just looking for an ALREADY MADE SOLUTION.

I think its the weakest area of TiddlyWiki is that the main thing we communicate to people is:  "its wonderful BUT complicated".

How about, instead? "HERE IS THE SCREENPLAY MAKER" & "THERE IS THE BRILLIANT GTD SYSTEM"?

I think there is a BIG need for a Newbie Section to deliver FORMED APPLICATIONS. I think we are alienating users as we currently do it. Just MO.

Best wishes
Josiah

[TonyM]

I would add to the idea of formed applications, another layer of self contained modules, as is often the outcome of a specific plugin rather than an whole edition.

I plan to build something I call object tiddlers, and hope to create lego blocks rather than provide a lego kit for the "millennium falcon", I want to provide engines, landing gear and "nuclear power piles". So you build your spaceship, not simply ask questions or follow instructions.

Editions and modules, or self contained plugins are the building blocks for a newby. By the time they get to ask questions in the existing group they may already know how to answer the question them-self.

We need to watch the ever present possibility of people loosing interest, too few people have the patience I have after 30 years of wrestling with Information Technology. It would be sad to find ourselves attracting and engaging people, for them to only give up because they hit too many barriers. We need to make it possible for people to build usable spaceships before they give up.

Regards
Tony

[PMario]

On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 at 4:05:26 PM UTC+2, TonyM wrote:

I would add to the idea of formed applications, another layer of self contained modules, as is often the outcome of a specific plugin rather than an whole edition.

For me edtions and apps are the same thing. .... but you are right lego blocks are better, but increase the complexity.

 

I plan to build something I call object tiddlers, and hope to create lego blocks rather than provide a lego kit for the "millennium falcon", I want to provide engines, landing gear and "nuclear power piles". So you build your spaceship, not simply ask questions or follow instructions.

Did you have a look at my bundler plugin. IMO it could provide "lego blocks", if you make the content "small enough". The main problem is, to manage the versioning problems, that will come up.

have fun!

mario

[TonyM]

Mario,

I did look at your bundler plugin and I think it is great, I intend to use it, I expect you will hear from me later because I have some thoughts about fitting it into a ecosystem of sorts. An ecosystem where the need to differentiate between editions and Apps, or modules will become more important.

My argument about lego blocks is they should make life less complex for the new and intermediate user to get results, while allowing them ultimately to develop complex solutions to complex problems without becoming tiddlywiki experts, while at the same time developing the knowledge to become expert.

Yes, versioning may be an issue, so I will give this some focus during the design process.

Some thoughts that come to mind, a little off topic.

A team that works well together, lifts the capabilities of all team members, to such a degree that that team is what rises above all other teams. Attempts by individuals in a team to climb to the top within a team only reduces the teams effectiveness. Open source collaboration between passionate enthusiasts turns us all into expert professionals in the long run.

And Mario - you are a top contributor.

Regards
Tony

[dg]

I'm one of the "newbie's" referred to in this discussion. I know only a smattering of HTML, even less CSS, and virtually nothing about client/server or node.js, etc..... I don't even know JavaScript (JS), although I may learn since it's so pervasive. I have done simple programming before in FORTRAN and VBA. I currently use Windows, but have used Unix before. 

I wished for a newbie group on TW. But I wonder if is whether there's sufficient traffic to make it worthwhile. In fact, my main concern about learning TW is that it seems a niche tool and I'm not sure of it's long term prognosis. 

My primary interest in TW is a personal notebook/knowledge-base. Commerial Wiki's like http://www.wikidot.com/ would be perfect for me except data security at work prevents me from putting a lot of my professional notes in the cloud. Password protected TW file local to my encrypted hard drive is a viable solution.

To explain my wish for a newbie group, and concern that it might not work for TW, please see the following:

• I learned VIM years ago and, at that time, the very active "vim-beginners" group was a great way to learn practical tips that eventually changed my experience of VIM from a nightmare to a dream to use. The more advanced VIM groups were way over my head and talked about things I wasn't interested in (developing plugins, etc.)
• The "vim-beginners" group was a much better way to learn VIM than reading the manual. At that time, the manual was about the only way to learn VIM. Recently, there's been a slew of books and web sites providing lots of information about learning VIM. If I was learning today, the "vim-beginners" group would not be the best way to learn. 
• Like the advanced VIM groups, this TW forum mostly talks about things over my head and of no real interest to me. It's not a good way to learn TW.
• Web searches on TW questions return a lot of dated material from TW Classic, etc. It's not only hard to figure out what applies to TW5, it's disconcerting to see all the really great tutorials and beginner material on TW is 5-10 years old. Makes me wonder about the future of TW. 

I hope my input is helpful to your decsion.

Thx!

-- 

 -- dg 

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao dg

That is a very GOOD, USEFUL, reply to issues I was trying to articulate--you did better than I did. That is part of the issue. I'm so embedded in basic knowing of TW--I'm getting blind to BASIC SIMPLE NEEDS of many potential users.

IMO we let down potential new users.

Part of the issue, as you say, is that it is NOT good for newbies to have to cope with a group that has threads that are so technically complex you have No Idea what they crapping on about.

What Newbies need, IMO, is a simple Google group with basic instructions and Q & A. And LINKS to FULL-FEATURED completed TW designed for SPECIFIC PURPOSES so they can download what they need to get on with it and forget everything else.

On whether TW is here for the long haul? YES, it is. It is a remarkable bit of kit that has proven resilient for over a decade already.

The fact the user base is small compared to TW's huge utility is a sad thing. IMO if we provided more FULLY FORMED apps in a simple way it would get used a lot more.

Best wishes
Josiah

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao PMario & TonyM

Just to clarify one point.

By FULLY FORMED TW ... what I meant was a complete functioning application that has a public web address you can get it from. Click & get it. That WHOLE TW.

For NEWBIES add-on modules, plugins and all the kind of DIY things WE take for granted are BARRIERS to entry IMO.

They come later. Much later.

Its complex enough for a NEWBIE. Even when they clicked and saved they still need to figure out how to SAVE the damned thing in usage and learn how to install additional thing (like a browser plugin) to do that. That's enough tech already.

What is MISSING is a MINIMALIST way forward when you start. A place to ASK about real basics.

That is why I'm interested in a LESS COMPLEX Google Group for Newbies. A group that focuses ONLY on getting you up and using in as simple a way as possible.

Best wishes
Josiah

[Mat]

@TiddlyTweeter wrote:

What is MISSING is a MINIMALIST way forward when you start. A place to ASK about real basics. 

I can see an argument for adding more FAQ type docs to tiddlywiki.com. That is the minimalist way, ie a <<link-list "Basics">> or similar.

Beyond that, I don't see what another forum than this one would bring to beginners.

<:-)

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mat

Actually, I agree. Not least because its pretty obvious TW currently does not have enough active uses to maintain yet more Groups. That was partly my point in the first place "Get rid of all redundancy".

One thing I think you overlook is people are ALSO looking here, not just at passive sites. They also look to THIS discussion group. Looking for relevant INTERACTION.

I think whatever aids NEWBIES in some minimalist way should ALSO be PINNED threads HERE. So that a Newbie visiting this group could FIND THEIR FEET.

Best wishes
Josiah

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Further to last.

We become BLIND to basics enjoying the dynamism here so much.

Do you realise the header for this group does NOT give a link to tiddlywiki.com .. this is how it reads ...

----

Welcome to the TiddlyWiki 5 discussion group for end users. Feel free to ask questions - we welcome newcomers, and are eager to help everyone get the best out of TiddlyWiki 5. 

• We're moving discussions about the older version 2.x.x of TiddlyWiki to the TiddlyWikiClassic group
  
• See the TiddlyWikiDev group for technical questions about JavaScript, CSS etc.
• See the TiddlyWikiDocs group for discussions about improving the documentation.
• An enhanced group search facility is available via mail-archive.com
• Please remember that people reading your post via email won't see any edits you make after posting; it's usually best to make a follow up post if you have substantive comments to add or correct.

[Dave Goggin]

Pinned threads would be very helpful! 

Since most of the great TW tutorial sites are for TWC, sorting out what works for the current incarnation is a real problem. I don't know how applicable that material is, so I stay away from it. 

A source of current, curated content would help a lot. TiddlyWiki.com only gets you so far. 

-- dg

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[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao dg

I agree with you that many SEARCHES for TiddlyWiki bring up both Classic & TW5. Since TW5 is NOT fully downwardly compatible it can create confusion having those results. Different names should have been used, really as they are different things. They weren't named so differently, so newbies can form the IMPRESSION TWC should be subsumed by & auto-supported by TW5. That is not the case in any straightforward way.

It has left a CONFUSING legacy. It is too late to put it right now.

Regarding PINNING for beginners. For reasons I don't understand there was resounding SILENCE. It may be this group is in a Catch 22. There are not that many active people here and (rightly) the small numbers don't want to get involved in stuff like supporting beginners explicitly because its a BIG commitment to do it properly.

On the other hand, nobody here is against beginners.

IN SHORT --- IF you have CHUTZPA as a newbie you will do okay. You may well be appreciated.

But there is NO pinned HAND-HOLDING SECTION yet. There should be, but there isn't. So the beginning of really utilizing TW IS tough.

Best wishes
Josiah

dg wrote:

Pinned threads would be very helpful! 

[Danielo Rodríguez]

What about trying a forum ? We can easily bring up a forum on any free tier, for example an heroku app and if it suceeds we can port it to whatever paid plan fits out needs, and maybe Jeremy could create an a record like forum.tiddlywiki.com for it. All are very straightforward and small steps

[Ste Wilson]

Aren't we just circling the drain? Riz campaigned for a Reddit group worked hard to set it up and then watched as nothing happened.. We have that other thing that still needs votes (stack exchange?) which is going nowhere fast but we do have yet another thread calling for better documentation, newbie friendliness, better links to mature tiddlywiky's and here we are... On Google groups.

[@TiddlyTweeter]

EXACTLY.  We are here in this camp. Like it or lump it.

One thing I do keep pointng at is PINNING of a few threads here...  like ...

-- NEW HERE?

and

-- WAYS TO SAVE YOUR TIDDLYWIKI.

 and maybe a few others like ...

-- SHOWCASE LINKS

and

-- GREAT PLUGINS

But so far I never got anyone interested.

Basically we are a comfy basket that keeps itself warm :-).

Best wishes
Josiah

[ste...@gmail.com]

On Monday, September 11, 2017 at 1:47:21 PM UTC+2, Mat wrote:

I can see an argument for adding more FAQ type docs to tiddlywiki.com. That is the minimalist way, ie a <<link-list "Basics">> or similar.

I don't know how often this has been discussed already, but tiddlywiki.com could also use more examples (e. g. for the usage of macros, widgets, filters etc.) Examples are often the easiest way to understand new concepts. Many Linux man pages suffer from the same problem, by the way.

Cheers,

Stef

[@TiddlyTweeter]

 I totally agree. AND disagree. BEFORE tiddlywiki.com how about PINNING here? The problem with talking about tiddlywiki.com is its one step too far away from anyone but @Jermolene doing anything. Like its "over there that it gets done" (by who?).

The issue, at root is about MAKING A DECISION amongst those who would do it THEN LOBBY @Jermolene to get it moved on. IMO, I think PINNED threads here in GG could be a way to develop such material in an incremental manageable fashion.

Best wishes
Josiah

[Arlen Beiler]

So how do I sign up for the Reddit group and actually start using it?

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[@TiddlyTweeter]

Its here: https://www.reddit.com/r/TiddlyWiki5/ ... and Riz is doing a few posts again after his resurrection from wage slavery & pissed-offness at the state of the world...

On Wednesday, 20 September 2017 22:57:47 UTC+2, Arlen Beiler wrote:

So how do I sign up for the Reddit group and actually start using it?

On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 4:39 PM, @TiddlyTweeter <tiddly...@assays.tv> wrote:

 I totally agree. AND disagree. BEFORE tiddlywiki.com how about PINNING here? The problem with talking about tiddlywiki.com is its one step too far away from anyone but @Jermolene doing anything. Like its "over there that it gets done" (by who?).

The issue, at root is about MAKING A DECISION amongst those who would do it THEN LOBBY @Jermolene to get it moved on. IMO, I think PINNED threads here in GG could be a way to develop such material in an incremental manageable fashion.

Best wishes
Josiah

On Wednesday, 20 September 2017 22:22:46 UTC+2, ste...@gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, September 11, 2017 at 1:47:21 PM UTC+2, Mat wrote:

I can see an argument for adding more FAQ type docs to tiddlywiki.com. That is the minimalist way, ie a <<link-list "Basics">> or similar.

I don't know how often this has been discussed already, but tiddlywiki.com could also use more examples (e. g. for the usage of macros, widgets, filters etc.) Examples are often the easiest way to understand new concepts. Many Linux man pages suffer from the same problem, by the way.

Cheers,

Stef

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[Lost Admin]

I didn't know there was a Reddit for tiddlywiki. I will go stealth reading it for a while.

I use reddit to get very specific news about very specific things. sub-reddits that turn into a forum (like this) I drop pretty quickly. But, that's just my useage pattern. I am fully away others work completely differently.

[Jeremy Ruston]

Again, thanks to everyone for contributing to another interesting thread.

To kick off, for a long time my ambition for migrating from Google Groups has been to eat our own dog food and move to a TiddlyWiki-based discussion board. Part of the motivation is that I believe we could build a tool that supports ordinary back-and-forth threaded discussion, but also adds features to enable community members to refactor/reindex/retag/remix posts to make them logically arranged and easy to find. I parrot that the purpose of TiddlyWiki is to make information reusable by chopping it up into chunks and weaving those chunks into a multiplicity of narrative sequences, and that’s pretty much what I see needed here.

Josiah’s original question was whether it was worth keeping the TiddlyWikiDocs and TiddlyWikiDev groups because they seem peripheral. The origins are that we created those two groups in response to the community feeling that those topics were crowding out the main group, and putting off newbies due to their complexity.

I’m not sure that I can see any case for closing them.

Having topic-specific mailing lists is common amongst open source projects. The problems, such as they are, are easily understood: people can have difficulty picking the right group for their post, and threads can drift between topics. For me, a critical thing is that in a classical open source project these are mailing lists, and not forums. The great advantage of mailing lists is that they are delivered via push to a single place (my inbox); with forums users need to visit each one to find the latest activity (unless they are sophisticated enough to use an RSS reader). Thus, for people like me who prefer to participate with discussion groups via email there’s very little cost to being subscribed to a low traffic group. I do appreciate that for people reading via the web interface it’s a little harder, but not much; Google Groups shows a count of unread posts in the groups to which you are subscribed.

Beyond Josiah’s original question there were some other parts of the thread I’d like to pick up:

* Firstly, TiddlyDesktop isn’t dead. It’s just that I’ve lost some enthusiasm for it because of the feedback that it wasn’t as good as their regular browser (in terms of spell checking etc). My worry has been that TiddlyDesktop development could degenerate into endlessly chasing end user browser features. Then Arlen started TiddlyServer which does an awful lot of the things that I was interested in exploring with TiddlyDesktop...

* Nonetheless, I am preparing an update for TiddlyDesktop with the latest version of nw.js, so that will remain an option for Firefox refugees

* As I understand it, the TiddlyWiki Stack Exchange site couldn’t really be a substitute for the general TiddlyWiki discussion group because Stack Exchange is ruthlessly focussed on the Q&A format. At least when they started, they discouraged free-wheeling discussion and focussed on asking and answering questions. Unless that’s changed, Stack Exchange could only host a component of our online community

* Josiah’s comments about "HERE IS THE SCREENPLAY MAKER" & "THERE IS THE BRILLIANT GTD SYSTEM” suggest that we’ve not done a good job of communicating the purpose of “editions” of TiddlyWiki. The intention is precisely as described: a series of canned, off-the-shelf starter wikis for various specific purposes. The presentation isn’t good at the moment but that particular wheel has been invented...

* Josiah suggests catering for the needs of newbies to TiddlyWiki is with a dedicated discussion group. While a dedicated group could be useful, I think it’s even more important that we cater for newbies at tiddlywiki.com. It’s actually quite a dedicated newbie who gets from tiddlywiki.com to the point of finding the discussion groups

* There’s often a feeling that making changes to tiddlywiki.com isn’t practical, which I think is why we’re discussing using pinned threads to solve problems that should really be solved on the main site.  I’m very much open to contributions that make changes, but those contributions have to happen… 

* The proposal has come up of migrating from Google Groups to another bit of forum software. One problem is that I don’t see any forum software that really moves significantly beyond Google Groups. Things like Discourse are pretty old-fashioned and traditional. But in any event, any move needs to consider who’s going to host it, who’s going to pay for it, who’s going to ensure backups are taken etc. It is more than just choosing and deploying software to a server.

I have some thoughts for where we might go from here:

* We need to get to the point where a bigger team in the community can update tiddlywiki.com with links to new examples, plugins etc so that we spread the workload

* We need to move the TiddlyWiki5 repo from my personal GitHub account to https://github.com/TiddlyWiki/TiddlyWiki5. That will enable me to add others in the community to help manage issues and PRs

* We need to make it easier for people to contribute editions and plugins into a central register or library

Part of the solution to some of that might lie with the work I’ve been doing on Xememex; we could be thinking about a community wiki for working on the documentation…

Best wishes

Jeremy.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/eefdeaa6-d7a4-42dd-be43-d598b668f388%40googlegroups.com.

[TonyM]

Josia,

You say

What Newbies need, IMO, is a simple Google group with basic instructions and Q & A. And LINKS to FULL-FEATURED completed TW designed for SPECIFIC PURPOSES so they can download what they need to get on with it and forget everything else.

I agree but unless a group/forum is part of something the non-newbies frequent it will need a collaborative effort to maintain. This is not difficult, it just needs to launch and a little grit to "make it stick":

On editions (Complete TWs) see below.
 

On whether TW is here for the long haul? YES, it is. It is a remarkable bit of kit that has proven resilient for over a decade already.

Totally agree

The fact the user base is small compared to TW's huge utility is a sad thing. IMO if we provided more FULLY FORMED apps in a simple way it would get used a lot more.

First I think you may find a lot of people discover tiddlywki and go away and use it, and sometimes we hear from them. This is what I did with TWC and Erics TiddlyTools site for a long time. A Key cultural feature of the google groups was you did not need to search you just ask.

I agree some fully formed apps in a directory would be good but I would like to suggest we do have some of these and I for one are impressed by them, they are on my HDD, they inspire me, but I do not use them. The thing is they are either the whole solution (you have to buy into them), or only part of the solution (you need to combine with other features/plugins). I think a little more supportive content between plugins and editions in size is what we need. I am working on a few myself but it will be some time before I can demonstrate where I am, coming from. We need to extend this building block approach into the solutions people can use, without providing only part, or all of the solution.

I believe there needs to be an ecosystem of solutions rather than editions, code or plugins, even if you use plugins to archive this, people are thinking about and working on solutions.

Regards
Tony

[Riz]

What info for directed for newbies do we have in mind? If people post it here, I will collect it and post it as a pinned thread or wiki page in reddit.

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao TonyM,

Josiah wrote:

... IMO if we provided more FULLY FORMED apps in a simple way it would get used a lot more.

TonyM replied:

First I think you may find a lot of people discover tiddlywki and go away and use it ...

True.

I agree some fully formed apps in a directory would be good but I would like to suggest we do have some of these and I for one are impressed by them, they are on my HDD, they inspire me, but I do not use them...

On this I agree & disagree. Its much about where you are placed in the process of learning.

I'm thinking more, I think, in my initial orientation, of new folk used to the ideas of apps. IMO they could do with seeing a lot more finished apps. Most published TW in GG are demos, fragments, plugins & bits. Nothing wrong with that if you already DIY. But its a bit of a step for a newbie. And much of it "looks like" variations on TW.com, rather than whole apps. I think there is a cognisance gap to understanding from these bits wholes can form. Fulsome Apps. can do that.

We need more public whole apps. IMO, to SHOWCASE OUTCOMES, rather than process steps. I suspect we are not gaining non-DIY users at a pace of knots.

Josiah wrote:

What Newbies need, IMO, is a simple Google group with basic instructions and Q & A...

TonyM responded:

I agree but unless a group/forum is part of something the non-newbies frequent it will need a collaborative effort to maintain...

Good points. I'll respond on this in a separate post. @Jermolene made many good points as the BDFL that deserve responses.

Best wishes
Josiah

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao TonyM & all

A small footnote to last.

Though I had no idea what it was or what to do with it, it was seeing Eric Shulman's TiddlyTools some long time ago that alerted me to TiddlyWiki. It stuck in me despite not using it at the time. And some years later I came back & re-looked at it and then found TW5.

IF my First Contact had been Google Groups--forget it. I HAVE to SEE something special fully dedicated to a purpose to grog it. TiddlyTools did the trick with me--even though I have never used it.

Best wishes
Josiah

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Jeremy & tutti,

Jeremy Ruston wrote:

To kick off, for a long time my ambition for migrating from Google Groups has been to eat our own dog food and move to a TiddlyWiki-based discussion board...

Brilliant. The only problem is the starving dog :-). The downside is whilst we wait Rover has a bit of a lean time :-).
 

Josiah’s original question was whether it was worth keeping the TiddlyWikiDocs and TiddlyWikiDev groups because they seem peripheral...

I’m not sure that I can see any case for closing them.

Actually I agree--but weakly. Meaning, I don't think it does harm having them. But I still don't think it adds anything. For the life of me I can't find a single post on TiddlyWikiDev that I haven't seen the like of in the TiddlyWiki GG. And TiddlyWikiDocs is largely unused.
 

... a critical thing is that in a classical open source project these are mailing lists, and not forums.

That is REALLY INTERESTING COMMENT. I do not get this GG through Email. To me IT IS A FORUM.

Because I view it as an online forum, maybe you can see now why I attach more relevance to Pinned threads etc than someone who gets it all through email.

I think its important to understand that GG is NOT just a mailing list. This has some bearing on current issues.
 

... I am preparing an update for TiddlyDesktop with the latest version of nw.js, so that will remain an option for Firefox refugees

Noted. I apologise for referring to it a few times as "Retired". I genuinely formed the idea that TiddlyServer was its nemesis.

 

* ... Stack Exchange could only host a component of our online community ...

Agree. StackExchange, also, I find, illustrates a negative "numbers game". The very robust TW community still has trouble there because of our low numbers. That makes it hard to get momentum to get it to work. So, in that sense, we are victims of its restrictive volume rules.
 

* Josiah’s comments about "HERE IS THE SCREENPLAY MAKER" & "THERE IS THE BRILLIANT GTD SYSTEM” suggest that we’ve not done a good job of communicating the purpose of “editions” of TiddlyWiki. The intention is precisely as described: a series of canned, off-the-shelf starter wikis for various specific purposes. The presentation isn’t good at the moment but that particular wheel has been invented...

I think this is quite a complex issue. I'm as much as fault as anyone for not ever having publicly released anything. I got touched with DIY-itis, so nothing I ever make is good enough--yet--yet.

It's an issue I hope we can collectively consider more. I'm convinced there is great work in the wings that if it were more visible would help newbies grasp what TW can do for them.
 

* Josiah suggests catering for the needs of newbies to TiddlyWiki is with a dedicated discussion group ... it’s even more important that we cater for newbies at tiddlywiki.com.

One small point on this. The BRIDGE between GG & tiddlywiki.com is perhaps not quite as clear as it could be on the GG end.

For instance, the header for the group does not give the address of tiddlywiki.com . And there is not a single pinned thread saying WELCOME in the GG group that points back to tiddlywiki.com for beginners.
 

* There’s often a feeling that making changes to tiddlywiki.com isn’t practical, which I think is why we’re discussing using pinned threads to solve problems that should really be solved on the main site.  I’m very much open to contributions that make changes, but those contributions have to happen… 

Yes. I think part of this is there is no real clear BRIDGE mechanism between the two to clarify (a) HOW to do it; (b) WHAT is valuable to prep, what is NEEDED. Its pretty obvious that a LOT of things written into this GG daily are proto-documentation. But some mechanism is needed to point to the valuable ones. Its erroneous to believe people will point to themselves--so I think one needs a thread to PROMOTE THIS to list things worth working up into documentation. I just don't believe good docs arise from nowhere. It needs a framework of intent & need.

Best wishes
Josiah

[Arlen Beiler]

TiddlyTweeter et al,

 

Noted. I apologise for referring to it a few times as "Retired". I genuinely formed the idea that TiddlyServer was its nemesis.

I had formed that opinion as well based on comments in one of the last TiddlyWiki hangouts about TiddlyDesktop. There was a TiddlyServer version 1 that was similar to TiddlyDesktop I am told. Thus mine was named version 2. I don't know why you couldn't use TiddlyServer 2 to build a new TiddlyDesktop 2, except that it doesn't quite have the same functionality yet. They would basically perform the same function. 

I would be happy to work with any developers who want to do something like this, or contribute ideas. At some point, TiddlyServer is probably going to get an admin panel. 

That is REALLY INTERESTING COMMENT. I do not get this GG through Email. To me IT IS A FORUM. 

I get these GG through my email, where it is conveniently grouped by thread and tagged according which GG it originates from. However I am probably one of the biggest culprits when it comes to using regular for dev talk. I try to keep it separate, but sometimes I forget. 

I've also become pretty experienced at figuring out which threads are of interest to me (esp. design discussions) and which are out of my field (anything with filters or wikitext). Gmail tells me how many emails came in for that category since I last checked, so I can pretty well make sure I don't miss anything I'm interested in. 

Then, of course, I can search for any mention of a certain term, such as TiddlyServer, right in my inbox.

 

* There’s often a feeling that making changes to tiddlywiki.com isn’t practical, which I think is why we’re discussing using pinned threads to solve problems that should really be solved on the main site.  I’m very much open to contributions that make changes, but those contributions have to happen…

I usually feel this way as well. Although I probably shouldn't. Now that I have the tools I need to easily clone and commit (GitHub Desktop), it should make it easier. I just have to look up what exactly to edit.

To kick off, for a long time my ambition for migrating from Google Groups has been to eat our own dog food and move to a TiddlyWiki-based discussion board...

There's a lot of work between here and there. TiddlyWiki hasn't yet seen a solution that scales well no matter the size. And this Google Group generates a lot of content. I really feel like we need a wiki where some of us who want to document stuff can do so. We already have Wikibooks available. Github wiki could work but is not as easy to organize nicely. We have reddit wiki. And we could use TiddlyWiki for a community wiki. I feel like I'm getting close to that point with TiddlyServer and CardServe (in the works), but I have no idea what Jeremy has up his sleeve. That would not need to scale nearly as much as a message board or forum would anyway. 

 

Arlen

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[Arlen Beiler]

There's a lot of work between here and there.

Having said that, go for it. I can see the work it takes, but I also see that it is totally possible, and I believe it is practical as well. It will require solving new problems, but that research will make TiddlyWiki better and more versatile. It can totally be done. 

[Riz]

I say we start here. Right now. Discuss what would we like to see in a "Welcome" thread. As is said above, contributions have to happen so that it can be integrated to wherever.


PS: It is official I guess - FF 57 aka FF Quantum is hitting shelves on Nov 14th. Apparently it boasts of almost double responsiveness, according to benchmark tests. Would people retain old FF 52 or ESR varieties is that is true?

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[@TiddlyTweeter]

Slightly tech point ... (you people FORCED me to think more nerdish)

FF 57, so I'm told, by #Mozilla folk who don't care about file saving, will attract Chrome users because its looks like Chrome+. I am highly sceptical.

J.

[Arlen Beiler]

Just an interesting graphic on the browser market: https://www.w3counter.com/trends

Notice Firefox goes from slightly upward to significantly downward when chrome came out. And I think the reason was responsiveness. At least that is what it was for me. 

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[@TiddlyTweeter]

How can i say PINNED THREAD when so many people here would never see it on GG?

Okay. WELCOME ...

1. What is TW?
2. Where do you download it?
3. What can you do with it?
   
4. How do you save it?
5. Some example TiddlyWikis.
6. How to ask questions & where.
   

Next up. The OTHER THREAD. The SAVING Crisis (actually its a bonanza already). For LOCAL save ...

1. The Death of Firefox at 57 and how to postpone it.
   
2. TiddlyServer (sorted)
   
3. WebDav (in process)
   
4. Mark S' Batch System (interesting experiment)
   
5. TiddlyDesktop (needs updating)
   
6. The other thing ...
   

Best wishes

Josiah

Riz wrote:

I say we start here. Right now. Discuss what would we like to see in a "Welcome" thread...

[Arlen Beiler]

How can i say PINNED THREAD when so many people here would never see it on GG?

I don't think it really matters if I don't see it. What matters is that I know it is there and every new person that goes to join the group is going to see it.

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[Rizwan Ishak]

Now somebody got to write the answers.  

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[@TiddlyTweeter]

Assign me a task for one item.

J

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Its an alarming trend, given that Chrome is so crap on facilities. (Me: gnostic in a wood with wi-fi since 1957).

J.

[Ste Wilson]

Tiddly Wiki is a personal notebook which can be used to store all your thoughts in an easy to manage flash cards style system. You can easily link from one card to another as well as group topics and thoughts with tags #nohashtagneeded.

It comes in a single file which can be opened and edited in any browser and saved back to you usb stick or your pc.

If you want more there are off the shelf plugins available to add functionality to your Wiki and the ability to customise it into something unique and bespoke for your needs.

You can get started by downloading your own from tiddlywiki.com.

[Ste Wilson]

My opener for ten..