Improvements to "GettingStarted"

[Jeremy Ruston]

Rizwan Ishak has recently submitted some improvements to the appearance and usability of the “GettingStarted” tiddler:

* Conventional checkboxes for filtering by operating system or browser

* Clearer styling of each panel

* More prominent download button

* Panels now operate as links, instead of transcluding the target tiddler within the GettingStarted tiddler

See below for a screenshot.

The changes are now live at https://tiddlywiki.com/

In the GitHub ticket we’ve also discussed some possible further improvements:

https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/pull/4640

Feedback and suggestions welcome,

Best wishes

Jeremy.

[OGNSYA]

Looks great!

I agree that a Wizard could be helpful, since many new users struggle with the whole concept of what TW is.

Regardless, I think the categories on the left should better reflect the variety of options. I use TiddlyDesktop, for example - shouldn't this be in a "Desktop" category?  

[PMario]

Hi,

Looks nice. ... BUT imo all the elements have to be checked, if they appear in the right "sets", depending on the filters. ... eg: A firefox AddOn will work with FireFox independent which OS is selected.

So is there a list of all the tags that an element has to have and how do the filters work.

-mario

[PMario]

hi,

IMO the selection titles should have the same colour coding than the "cards" on the right side, if that's possible.

If not, there should be a legend, that describes the color codes.

-mario

[Eric Shulman]

I'd like to see the default "download saver" included in this list.

https://tiddlywiki.com/#Saving%20with%20the%20HTML5%20fallback%20saver

I suggest renaming the tiddler to "Saving with the HTML5 default saver" (i.e., change "fallback" to "default").

It is, after all, the default method of saving if no other method is chosen.

I'd also strongly suggest removing the negative judgmental description, which currently starts with:

   "This method of saving changes is clunky ..."

While many people find it less than satisfying, I use it ALL THE TIME with great effectiveness.

The only thing I do to configure it is to set my browser to "Always ask for location" when downloading.  This bypasses

the default "save to Download folder" behavior so I can easily select where I want the saved file to go.  There's no

extra plugins, scripts, or applications to install, and it works on practically all systems and browsers.

The first time I save a TW document, I get the system-based "select a file/folder" dialog and I just choose the current folder

where the document already lives on my system.  That setting is then use for all subsequent saves, and persists even

between browser sessions, so I almost never need to change it.

Then, when saving, the system dialog automatically defaults to adding an "(n)" number suffix, which makes it easy to

save "checkpoints" as I work, without overwriting the original file, so if I break something, I can quickly compare files to figure

out what I've done wrong or just revert to a previous saved version and start again.  Then, once I am satisfied that everything

is working as I want, I can easily click on the original filename to overwrite it and then clear out all the "checkpoint" files that

I no longer need to keep around.

Furthermore, if I do some experimenting starting from http://tiddlywiki.com/empty.html, I can try stuff online first, and if I want

to save the experiment to my local system, the "download save" does the job without any fuss.  I just pick a destination folder

and I'm done.  I can then continue the experiment from my local system.

This also works well if I am working from an existing TW I've uploaded to TiddlySpot.  I can make changes online,

and save locally just by clearing the TiddlySpot "wiki name" in the TiddlySpot Saver settings.

I get that some people don't like a lot of interaction during the saving process, but I find it a comfort because

the download saver triggers the system-based "select a file/folder" dialog, which offers me a moment think,

"am I sure about this?" before saving, and by default avoids accidentally overwriting an existing file

(because of the automatic "(n)" handling).

-e

[PMario]

On Sunday, June 14, 2020 at 2:13:26 PM UTC+2, Eric Shulman wrote:

I'd like to see the default "download saver" included in this list.

I'd also strongly suggest rewriting it to remove the negative judgemental description, which currently starts with:

"This method of saving changes is clunky ..."

+1 ... Authors did invest a lot of know how and time into every option available. ... So every single one of them should have a "positve tone" in the description.

-m

[Thomas Elmiger]

+1

PMario:

IMO the selection titles should have the same colour coding than the "cards" on the right side, if that's possible.

If not, there should be a legend, that describes the color codes.

Maybe both? I too missed an explanation for the colours.

Also the tags of the browser extensions should be revised. When I select my OS (Mac) and my browser (Firefox) I cannot find my preferred file-backups browser extension.

What information does the checkmark icon add to the download empty button? Maybe clean that button up too – neither Firefox nor Chrome download pages have an icon on the download button.

[Riz]

Hi,

I have only made visual changes, nothing else. If choosing a set of options does not show a saver, it is because it needs more tags.

Colors correspond to delivery methods. This is not obvious right now. However the next step is to reclassification of savers to broad categories and listing them under those subheadings. I have detailed my plan in the discussion Jeremy linked above. I will reproducing the same below.

This the text I had in mind for the introductory Tiddler.

TiddlyWiki comes in 2 major flavors
* Node.js based flat file flavor: All your notes/tiddlers are saved as separate text files. Node.js runtime is required to view your wiki in browser.

* Single HTML file flavor: All your notes/tiddlers are saved in a single HTML file which user can view in any browser.
<<.tip "You can convert your wiki between the two flavors any time.">>
<<.tip "There are third-party community resources providing other back-ends like [[sqlite, boltdb, dynamodb | widdly]] and [[PouchDB | Noteself]]. Please note that they are published and maintained independently of TW5">>

Choose your flavor:
* [[Node.js based flat file flavor|GettingStarted with Node.js]]
* [[Single HTML file flavor| Link to matrix]]
* Help me to choose which is best for me

The node option will give steps to install the setup, followed by description of Tiddlyserver and probably Bob.

If they choose single file, they will be shown the above matrix but subdivided to the following categories

• In built - Download saver, Emergency export
• Browser addons
• Applications - TiddlyDesktop, Tiddloid, Quine etc
• Cloud Savers - NoteSelf, TiddlySpot, Git savers, TiddlyDrive, Cloud Connectors
• Servers and Server protocols - WebDAV, PHP, DAT

The questionnaire for the third option is something that needs broad discussion. Like, is it moving forward with the in built assumption that user has rejected node? What is the easiest option offered for each platform?

[PMario]

On Sunday, June 14, 2020 at 7:30:59 PM UTC+2, Riz wrote:

I have only made visual changes, nothing else. If choosing a set of options does not show a saver, it is because it needs more tags.

Hi Riz, ... It wasn't meant to critic your work, which is great.

I wanted to point out, that every maintainer of a plugin or app, needs to review the tags for their work. The best way to create PRs would be, if the authors of the code would create the PR. So Jeremy can be sure, that it's "tagged" in the way the author wants it.

 

-mario

[Thomas Elmiger]

Hi Riz and Jeremy,

First: Thank you both for improving this important entry point! I think it is a big step forward.

Riz:

I have only made visual changes, nothing else. If choosing a set of options does not show a saver, it is because it needs more tags.

The changes are good, people finding more room for improvements (in related, untouched tiddlers) shows that you give us a new perspective.

I wanted to propose a change to the card design but did not find out how to make a proper pull request from the github web interface:

https://github.com/telmiger/TiddlyWiki5/blob/tiddlywiki-com/editions/tw5.com/tiddlers/system/tw5.com-card-template.tid

(There are always unrelated files and very old commits from my master branch involved that would only be irritating. I don’t know how to get rid of them.)

My main idea is to link the author name with the solution URL. I would like to keep the link to the description tiddler and offer a shortcut to the solution also. In order to clearly separate the two links, I put the author information at the end of the card.

Feel free to copy that manually if you like it.

Cheers,

Thomas

[Rizwan Ishak]

Hi Thomas,

The entire card is a link. So a link within a link would not a great UI choice. 

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[Riz]

[Thomas Elmiger]

Hi Riz

This is why I unliked the author part so that there can be a second (different) link that takes users directly to the solution website offered by the author.

(I just made an update to also cover the case where there is an author but not a URL.)

[Thomas Elmiger]

Ah I see your point, Riz.

There is a new version now, where the author (and the second link) is beneath the card to maintain your concept of the whole card is one link.

Another reason why I would prefer this over the existing design is that I think the author name does not provide much information to new users and is a bit too prominent in the second line of text before the explanation. (Why is it aligned on the right?)

All the best,

Thomas

[Mark S.]

Are you talking about authors of the documentation, or of the original method? Not all of the methods have associated authors.

[Mohammad Rahmani]

Hi Jeremy

Great to see you in the group again! I wish you full of health and energy!

Small comment

Keep the cards color/style compatible with the theme!

Best wishes

Mohammad

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[TW Tones]

I want to second Eric argument about keeping the download saver as prominent. With 'browser to "Always ask for location" when downloading'.

I do wonder if this should be in an 'are you "new to tiddlywiki" section`. Too much choice is likely to scare less technical users, although the number of choices is inspiring to more technical users. Such a section can also point out they can experience tiddlywiki in their browser without doing any thing else, perhaps including a playground with local storage and a prominent warning.

Here is my example of a Playground edition. Have a look and see how it can be used to experiment online without having to save or download.

Regards

Tony

[TW Tones]

Added link to previous post

https://anthonymuscio.github.io/playground.html

Tony

[PMario]

On Sunday, June 14, 2020 at 11:00:55 PM UTC+2, Mark S. wrote:

Are you talking about authors of the documentation, or of the original method? Not all of the methods have associated authors.

Hi, I was talking about the authors of the original method, if eg: AddOns or apps are involved. IMO only the authors can decide, how they intended the functions to be used. ... They need to support it.

Some elements, like WebDav are documentation only, so there may be several authors involved.

-m

[Rizwan Ishak]

That is a good point. 

Things like server protocols require some more focus. For example WebDAV. There ought be a more detailed steps regarding installation and usage of specific WebDAV servers. 

Some WebDAV solutions are obviously platform specific. For example, there are WebDAV android apps. In such cases, whoever is pushing the changes should take care to tag them appropriately and ensure that the documentation is complete regarding that particular solution.

Also I have questions regarding DAT protocol. Does TW support headless dat server or just beaker browser? 

Meanwhile, please also remember to give everyone's input regarding what steps you seem appropriate to guide to a new user to find appropriate saver. One question as put forward by Jeremy is whether user needs tiddlywiki to take care of online synchronization, or is it something they want to handle themselves via Dropbox, Google drive etc.

Sincerely,

Riz

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[PMario]

On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 2:22:14 PM UTC+2, Riz wrote:

Also I have questions regarding DAT protocol. Does TW support headless dat server or just beaker browser? 

At the moment it's Beaker-browser only!

I personally do see a lot of potential in the peer to peer DAT-protocol ... Which is now Hypercore-protocol. ...

We have been a bit early, implementing a DAT saver, which should be deprecated as soon as possible. It will only work using the beaker-browser V 0.8.x ... As the version number shows, it's a beta version and the API has been subject to change. ... And it did!

The new beta is 1.0.0-prerelease.x, which is a completely different concept to V0.8.0 ... Again: It's a completely different thing. Browser and protocol wise. So the DAT saver won't work anymore.

If Beaker 1.0 is shipped, the API is considered to be stable. See V1.0.0 ... So they will have to be more careful, changing APIs in a compatible way.

As I wrote, the whole "workflow" has changed considerably. Beaker browser now uses a "hyperdrive-deamon", that is independent form beaker. But it's highly influenced by beaker. ...

At the moment Beaker browser is the only usable GUI, that can talk to the deamon. It abstracts most of the complicated things away, but it has its own opinions how some workflows should look like.

The rest of the utilities that exist are command line (CLI) based, which is a no-go for most of our users.

I am working on a new "single file" saver, that can use the new Beaker-API. ... BUT the whole thing isn't very harddisk space efficient, because it doesn't use anything of the "good stuff" that hyperdrive has to offer.

So the first version, that makes sense for me, will separete the core-js-code from html-content, which can be done in a save way, since hyperdrive has a "built-in" versioning system.

... more to follow in a new thread, when the time comes!

have fun!

mario

[Rizwan Ishak]

All in all, delete beaker browser for now and add it later when things are more stable?

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[Mark S.]

Hi, I was talking about the authors of the original method, if eg: AddOns or apps are involved. IMO only the authors can decide, how they intended the functions to be used. ... They need to support it.

 So we should remove PHP (store.php), since the author is not supporting it and has definitely not created the saver documentation tiddler. People are attempting to use store.php and becoming frustrated.

[bimlas]

OGNSYA,

 

I agree that a Wizard could be helpful, since many new users struggle with the whole concept of what TW is.

 Although the answer would be a completely different thread, but I think we could give them a very brief summary that is tangible of what they know:

Treat the single file (standalone HTML) as a document (like Word, PowerPoint, etc.) that includes its own editor, so basically you have a common software that work differently for each task.

To add to the GettingStarted change: I think the status of checkboxes should be saved in $:/state tiddler instead of $:/temp, because now changing options changes the dirty flag.

[Rizwan Ishak]

To add to the GettingStarted change: I think the status of checkboxes should be saved in $:/state tiddler instead of $:/temp, because now changing options changes the dirty flag.

Noted. Will change in the next commit.

Sincerely,

Riz

[PMario]

On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 3:44:11 PM UTC+2, Mark S. wrote:

Hi, I was talking about the authors of the original method, if eg: AddOns or apps are involved. IMO only the authors can decide, how they intended the functions to be used. ... They need to support it.

 So we should remove PHP (store.php), since the author is not supporting it and has definitely not created the saver documentation tiddler. People are attempting to use store.php and becoming frustrated.

Yea, I think there is an alternative, that works.

-m

[Mark S.]

The alternative is tw-receiver. But that author hasn't submitted it to the gallery of savers either. I tried to submit a saver tiddler for tw-receiver, but it seems to have not made it into this collection.

[TW Tones]

Riz,

I agree with the store.php I gave up getting reliable results. but its successor is tw-receiver and it cant be found on tiddlywiki.com easily if at all.

https://github.com/sendwheel/tw-receiver

Regards

Tony

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[Rizwan Ishak]

There is a parallel Reddit discussion giving more insight to new users take on the matter here.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TiddlyWiki5/comments/h9788l/requesting_inputs_for_improvements_to/

Sincerely,

Riz

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[Paco Rivière]

I also think the first glance should only show some simple options to newbies, maybe not more than three, and a link or button may take other users to "More saving options".

I find this appreance, as overwelming and scareing as the present one.

An option for each Android, iOS, Unix and Windows should look much more friendly as a start. Beside a "More options" button.

El dilluns, 15 juny de 2020 6:57:06 UTC+2, TW Tones va escriure:

[TiddlyTweeter]

Riz & Jeremy

I did not comment before because I needed to see where this was going to make a decent comment.

I think Riz is right, boiling it down to "KNOWN workable for my platform".

The biggest single issue my users have is the old approach is TOO rich. Too many options. Gets confusing!

Comments on Reddit illustrate that well.

IMO "Saving" is a necessary PITA. And showing as minimal as possible options the correct way.

Just musings from a non-doer.

TT

[Riz]

The major question at this point is what is the algorithm for the "Help me choose it" option.

I got only two steps till now

Do you need cloud synchronization?
- Yes :
- Which of the following cloud services would you prefer? GitHub, Gitlab, Dropbox, Google Drive
- No: Go to next question

Do you need a dedicated app for saving tiddlywiki?
- Yes: Show TiddlyDesktop
- No: Show download saver

Any other questions and corresponding answers?

[Mark S.]

I don't quite understand the question

"Do you need a dedicated app for saving tiddlywiki?"

Why would anyone say "yes" ? It's more like, "Do you need saving to be convenient" ?

I think the "Getting Started" section needs at least a sentence to explain that TW doesn't have a save mechanism built in (except the default saver, which doesn't count because it needs so much explanation). People are totally unprepared for the concept of a tool that doesn't have saving. Every app that they have experienced since 1988 has had a save mechanism. They need that on-ramp which says "Things are a little different here, you have to select one or more saving methods."

Thanks!

[Rizwan Ishak]

How would you word the question?

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[Birthe C]

Mark S,

The question is about a dedicated app. That is not necessary for saving to be convenient.

Birthe

[Ste Wilson]

My 5 pence worth

'Tiddly wiki is a fully contained application contained in a web page.

As such it works out of the box in any browser, but that means that saving downloads another copy of the wiki.  See here for some help making that a little more painless------>Pick a browser----> Info on how to set up individual browsers to ask for a download location.

There are lots of other options for saving your wiki, see by OS---->options, by browser---->options, by complexity......, by cloud service.....and then options can be hidden/ revealed/ questioned from there....'

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[Mark S.]

Are you saying that the download saver is convenient?

Let's take a step back. Why would anyone want to use an app if there is already a convenient method?

If the download saver is convenient, then you only need to choose between a cloud-based solution and the download saver. Why would someone ever WANT an app, unless it was somehow superior? So, I think the 2nd question is either irrelevant, or needs to be couched in terms of it's advantages.

[OGNSYA]

I started this discussion, which I think would be helpful to figure out who is TW's audience (current and potential).

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/X3op3S7apYk

That could then inform the UX for newcomers

[Mark S.]

On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 7:43:04 AM UTC-7, Riz wrote:

How would you word the question?

That depends on what the intent of the 2nd question was. Why would anyone arbitrarily want an app ? The only reason I can think that anyone would choose the Download saver (except for Eric) is that they can not use external executables or extensions.

So maybe a second question would be:

"Can you install software on your machine?"

If "yes", then "TiddlyDesktop". If "no", then the "download saver".

[Mark S.]

On a side note, any local file saving solution can become a cloud solution using SyncThing. A common theme that comes up is that people want a solution that doesn't involve putting data on the servers of 3rd parties like Google, Microsoft, or even Github. I guess it would fit best as a "cloud solution".

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Riz

> The major question at this point is what is the algorithm for the "Help me choose it" option.

Indeed, the tricky thing is phrasing questions that will be understandable to users who consider themselves ignorant of technology. For example, "cloud synchronization" would only make sense to someone reasonably tech savvy.

Some questions that we might usefully ask include:

* Do you want to be able to access your data from one more than one computer or phone/tablet?
* Do you want to keep your data private?
* Are you able to install applications on your computer or phone/tablet?

Best wishes

Jeremy

[TW Tones]

Jeremy,

Yes, my thought was the question do you want to access your wiki on different devices?

The trouble is most people would answer yes, even before they discover they love tiddlywiki. Which means we send them down the complexity path right away.

Here I provide a carefully thoughtout path to address new and experienced users entering tiddlywiki.com. Perhaps links to playground wikis should come before they read GettingStarted which is really about "making it your own"

My idea is that we keep them informed of the general possibilities and only present the options and complexity when they are actually looking for it. People want assurance that it will work for them first, and that it has potential to meet their needs, we should answer that before we scare them off with technical questions and decisions.

I would be tempted to assert the facts

• Tiddlywiki can be installed on or accessed from multiple devices including desktop, phones tablets and in most common browsers. Icons displayed reassuring them including devices, browser, app stores etc... 
• Perhaps they could open a list of devices and platforms, but with, No indication of how to (yet), allowing people to confirm their favourites are covered.
• State extensive Client and Server options are available (but no more at this point)
• I would also hint at this high level TiddlyWiki can be used as a platform to build smart document, websites and applications.
  
• A firm direction/instructions to enable a browser to save to any location, would allow the download saver to be used flexibly.
  
• One can download to where you want, and chose to save over the download after making changes.
• With a suggestion to move on to the appropriate location for more details.
• Failing this in some browsers advice there are plenty of choices.

But perhaps before the download saver we should then provide an online playground for evaluation (irrespective of device/Server/host), like on TiddlyWiki.com or my aforementioned Playground or various hosted editions with demo content so they can see the possibilities and download from there. Including all appropriate caveats. Note my playground now has 4 plugin libraries in total.

Download options on an edition could include,

• Current version empty,
• Latest version of empty (Via link) 
• this edition without its demo data, 
• this edition with its demo date 
• with its demo date  and the users updates.

The next piece of information would be something like, A comprehensive set of savers and servers exist for tiddlywiki on different platforms so to learn more click here.

Noting: Choose the simplest option to start, you can always move a tiddlywiki to other devices or servers later.

Only then do they get to indicate there preferred devices, browsers, OS etc.. 

Adding an option to indicate "I want to serve my wiki to myself, on the LAN or on the Internet"

• This should be phrased so they select the easiest option first.
• Thus information given, can then be used present the details.
  

Finally a side effect of editions containing demo data, and demo data plugins, is people can reproduce a problem they are having with the same shareable data.

Regards

Tony

[Riz]

So the the presently the text goes like this

Hello there.

Tiddlywiki is a note taking applications that is unlike most of the traditional alternatives you must have come across. A few points to keep in mind before going further.

1. You can view, navigate and search your tiddlywiki files using any modern browser. You need to choose a saver only if you want to edit your tiddlywiki files.
2. Tiddlywiki has an inbuilt saving mechanism. It works by creating a modified copy of your tiddlywiki file every time you make changes. This requires no internet connection or additional software installation. Your browser will prompt you to download the modified copy or will carry out the download automatically depending on your browser setting. You can update your original tiddlywiki file by choosing to overwrite it with the modified copy. The saver methods listed in the following steps are attempts to make this workflow easier and provide varying additional features.
3. You can keep multiple tiddlywiki files. Each tiddlywiki file is completely independent of each other.This is almost like being able to run separate instances of Evernote or OneNote in the same computer. You may choose to use a different saving method for different tiddlywiki file.

1. Would you like to edit your tiddlywiki files from multiple devices?
- Yes
- Which of the following services would you like to use to sync your tiddlywiki files between your devices
- GitHub
- Gitlab
- Google drive
- Dropbox
- None of these: Describe syncing between devices using syncthing/other alternatives and mention that
- No: Next Question
2. Would you like to install dedicated softwares to manage, save and backup your tiddlywiki files? Note: Ensure that you have permission to install and run softwares.
- Yes: TiddlyDesktop, Quine, Tiddloid
- No: Next Question
3. Would you like to install browser extensions to save and backup your tiddlywiki files? Note: Ensure that you have permission to install and run browser extensions.
- Yes
- Which is the following browser do you use mostly?
- Chrome, Firefox, Internet explorer, Edge, Beaker
- No: Download saver

------------
The DIY setups like WebDAV and PHP server have not been featured anywhere in this wizard. I feel like it would be premature to spring those choices on unsuspecting new user, especially early in the wizard. May be they could be added as a footnote in the Tiddler explaining syncthing.

I have repeatedly referred to Tiddlywiki as tiddlywiki files to separate the brand from the tangible items user is familiar with.

I want to give the user a more comparative analogy for tiddlywiki as somebody mentioned above. I don't have the complete text formed in my mind right now. It goes something in the lines of: Consider a excel spreadsheet file. You need Microsoft Excel or similar software to open, navigate, search and edit your Excel files. When it comes to Tiddlywiki, you only need your web browser to do the open, navigate, search. While for saving your edits - you can choose from a wide variety of choices offering different feature sets including backups, syncing, serving over networks and so on. The advantage of such an analogy is that we convert the need for a separate saver from a weakness to a strength. The message is not that user have to choose, the message is that user can choose.

PS:I am seeing multiple valid points regarding individual savers in this thread. Please understand that I am not neglecting them. Each of you are well capable to pushing those changes yourselves. My purview is limited to updating the GettingStarted/Saving Tiddler.

[Eric Shulman]

On Thursday, June 18, 2020 at 11:51:04 AM UTC-7, Riz wrote:

2. Tiddlywiki has an inbuilt saving mechanism. It works by creating a modified copy of your tiddlywiki file every time you make changes. This requires no internet connection or additional software installation. Your browser will prompt you to download the modified copy or will carry out the download automatically depending on your browser setting. You can update your original tiddlywiki file by choosing to overwrite it with the modified copy. The saver methods listed in the following steps are attempts to make this workflow easier and provide varying additional features.

Here's a suggested re-write of the above paragraph:

 

TiddlyWiki has a built-in mechanism that works by creating a modified copy of your TiddlyWiki file every time you save your changes.

Depending on your browser settings, TiddlyWiki will ask you to select a location to save the modified copy or will save the file automatically to a previously designated default "Downloads" folder.  Although this procedure uses the browser's standard download method, it can also work directly with files stored on your computer and does not require an internet connection.  You can update your original TiddlyWiki file by choosing to overwrite it with the modified copy.

The saver methods listed below generally require some additional software installation to simplify this workflow and provide additional features such as automatic backup copies or uploading to online services.

I have repeatedly referred to Tiddlywiki as tiddlywiki files to separate the brand from the tangible items user is familiar with.

Although "TiddlyWiki file" is perfectly acceptable, I often refer to a "TiddlyWiki document" to emphasize the difference between the "application functionality" and the "data instance".

I want to give the user a more comparative analogy for tiddlywiki as somebody mentioned above. I don't have the complete text formed in my mind right now. It goes something in the lines of: Consider a excel spreadsheet file. You need Microsoft Excel or similar software to open, navigate, search and edit your Excel files. When it comes to Tiddlywiki, you only need your web browser to do the open, navigate, search.

I have used a similar analogy here: http://tiddlytools.com/InsideTW/#WhatIsTiddlyWiki

Thanks for all your work on this... it's really important to get the "first impressions" right... especially for non-technical folks.

-e

[TW Tones]

Folks,

Perhaps we need to also apply some global Operating and browser statistics, perhaps Windows + Chrome is far more common occurrence than others. 

Personally if I were a new tiddlywiki user I would love to of had a playground where I can test editions and plugins, learned about and installed Timimi with FireFox and Chrome from the get go, venturing into server options later. 

Now this is my personal experience, and others will have different journeys and opinions but can we make these shorter journeys for the majority at least?

Regards

Tony 

[Riz]

Hi,

So I have uploaded the current draft of changes here: https://ibnishak.github.io/TiddlyWiki5/

Apart from changed suggested by Eric, the text is practically same. Some other major changes

1. The filters in Saver methods are done away with. As pointed out above, most options appear whatever options you choose. Wherever options are platform bound, it is mentioned clearly in the description. Otherwise it is subdivided to meaningful categories keeping in mind "What average users might want to see first".
2. Text in "Installing Tiddlywiki with Node.JS" is slightly modified.
3. Advice boxes CSS is updated.
4. Wizard as discussed above.

I have not updated individual savers. I have my doubts regarding a few - HTA hack, Beaker, PHP saver. A few users in Reddit had complaints regarding instructions about Noteself being outdated. Someone more knowledgeable might want to look into these. Actual users of individual saver methods could eventually update the docs with detailed instructions to set up individual savers.

Apart from general comments, I need specific feedback regarding the following.

1. In the wizard intro, there need be a comment mentioning that only one saver would work at a time. If you use GitHub saver, the local copy will not be updated. This seems to be a frequent source of confusion.
2. Right now in wizard the "Next" button appear only when next step matters - like when user selects No or when there is a subquestion - like which cloud service to use. Another option would be keeping the next button appear always and urging user to click it on choosing an option. It might involve animation- so could be costly wrt performance.
3. How about changing all advice boxes (Tips, Warning, Preamble) in the doc to the CSS given in the demo? Right now I have kept it limited to the tiddlers I modified in this demo.

Sincerely,
Riz

[TW Tones]

Riz,

Thanks for your work here

Some Quick points

• Single file HTML button should be at the top, and possibly open to start with. This is where new users will be, lets not force a choice when they still do not know how to answer.
• Personally I think at least download empty should always be visible above the choices as it will always be valid.
  However as argued elsewhere it would be better to use a Standard wiki with a little more than empty eg a few inclusions like contents, display the more page control, home close all and a little more.
• I also believe once established a learn tiddlywiki and playground editions be pointed to here. If people can experience it without download/save of any other decisions I expect out adoption or conversion rate to go up.

Regards

TW Tones

[Rizwan Ishak]

> Single file HTML button should be at the top

Noted. Will change. I am not up for keeping it open. The wizard is in place specifically for those people who need help. People should make informed decisions. Might be worthwhile to add download button to wizard intro though. I would take suggestions on how the text should be.

Regarding standard edition I agree with the necessity of such an edition. However these require a entirely different and thorough discussion. What is a standard edition?. What plugins goes into a standard edition? How are users guided through the usage of a standard edition? Is there gonna be a wizard inside standard edition that will tell user what to do step by step? 

When a standard edition is formed and available under tiddlywiki.com domain, the GettingStarted Tiddler will be definitely revised to link to it in appropriate places. It doesn't exist currently unfortunately.

Similar is the case with playground edition. There should exist one in the repo and under tiddlywiki.com domain. When they do, it will be linked. 

Sincerely,

Riz

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[PMario]

Hi,

I think, file based options should be first. node.js is definitely more complex.

And the browser default saver should be first too. Every user should know how it works, because it always works!

-mario

[TW Tones]

Riz,

Totally agree, I suppose I need to take the next step for playground and standard editions despite it being raised an number of times.

However If there is no download without selecting an option, how will it look to a new user?. To me it is a big thing to hide something so essential that was not before.

Regards

Tony

On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 at 3:14:10 PM UTC+10, Riz wrote:

> Single file HTML button should be at the top

Noted. Will change. I am not up for keeping it open. The wizard is in place specifically for those people who need help. People should make informed decisions. Might be worthwhile to add download button to wizard intro though. I would take suggestions on how the text should be.

Regarding standard edition I agree with the necessity of such an edition. However these require a entirely different and thorough discussion. What is a standard edition?. What plugins goes into a standard edition? How are users guided through the usage of a standard edition? Is there gonna be a wizard inside standard edition that will tell user what to do step by step? 

When a standard edition is formed and available under tiddlywiki.com domain, the GettingStarted Tiddler will be definitely revised to link to it in appropriate places. It doesn't exist currently unfortunately.

Similar is the case with playground edition. There should exist one in the repo and under tiddlywiki.com domain. When they do, it will be linked. 

Sincerely,

Riz

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[Rizwan Ishak]

Ok. So single HTML file goes first. 

Is download saver the main option intended for promotion? I know it is universal, but most users would definitely want a better method. From what I understand from usual responses - TiddlyDesktop is the one new users usually flock to. Hence it is kept at top. The major point of this redo is to help users reach faster to the point where they might eventually reach after several attempts, putting download saver on top doesn't look very logical to me. Think about it - how many users in this forum might be actually just using just download saver as their major option? 

There are parts of documentation that ought to be structure driven, then there are parts that ought to be usage driven. Order of savers ought to correspond to latter and hence the most possible choices at the top.

I am merely explaining my choices. If there are more interesting counters, I am willing to reconsider my stand.

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[Rizwan Ishak]

Hi Tony,

The download option only makes sense if the user chooses single HTML file version, right? May be users - especially those coming from markdown based note taking applications - might want to keep their notes in separate plain text files. 

Giving the download button and then explaining the choices would defeat this purpose. So if a user consciously choose the single HTML - that is when he/she should be guided how to download it and save it.

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[Saq Imtiaz]

I do suggest TiddlyDesktop (TD) be highlighted in some way. There are simply too many options to choose from for a new user.

For a user choosing single file, I would go so far as to say that there should be only two options presented. One for local usage (TD), one for online, with everything else hidden away in a "explore more options" section.

I've tried various ways of introducing people to TW since the days of TWC, but the smoothest and most successful by far (since native saving in browsers went away) has been to ask them to download TD, and then "Create new wiki". Saving etc, all works well, and it is similar to the "application" and "new document" paradigm that people are used to.

I think that makes for an excellent entry point on desktop where users can start using and saving as quickly as possible in a familiar manner, and users wishing for more flexibility can then choose to look into how to use a regular browser and other saving methods. 

I agree with Riz, that from the point of view of a new end-user, promoting the download saver as the first choice seems illogical.

On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 at 8:00:52 AM UTC+2, Riz wrote:

Ok. So single HTML file goes first. 

Is download saver the main option intended for promotion? I know it is universal, but most users would definitely want a better method. From what I understand from usual responses - TiddlyDesktop is the one new users usually flock to. Hence it is kept at top. The major point of this redo is to help users reach faster to the point where they might eventually reach after several attempts, putting download saver on top doesn't look very logical to me. Think about it - how many users in this forum might be actually just using just download saver as their major option? 

There are parts of documentation that ought to be structure driven, then there are parts that ought to be usage driven. Order of savers ought to correspond to latter and hence the most possible choices at the top.

I am merely explaining my choices. If there are more interesting counters, I am willing to reconsider my stand.

On Wed, 24 Jun 2020, 11:16 PMario, <pmar...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

I think, file based options should be first. node.js is definitely more complex.

And the browser default saver should be first too. Every user should know how it works, because it always works!

-mario

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[TW Tones]

Riz,

The following is my view point simply in the spirit of sharing perspectives.

The key to me, is providing an easy path for the new user to identify if tiddlywiki is for them. For someone wanting to store tiddlers in separate files ie a specific requirement, they must first have established the tool meets their general requirements. 

Personally I think some links to a showcase would be good (but not yet available?)

In someways if someone "makes it their own" with a download and can play with tiddlywiki, when only the default saver is available to them, and they like it, even if they can't save it, they will return to the website and look for more information.

This is why I think a link to a standard edition/playground edition(s) asap would be wise, no download until your hooked approach.

My idea is, if there is a motivation for someone to move to the next step and no barrier to do so, we get forward moment, someone from the markdown, coder, node server will be motivated to find out how it works and what they can do, they will trawl the options (As I did) but a lot of new users arriving from a google search may only be motivated by their search string, and what it is they were looking for, curiosity could get them to download and open empty.html, but I am not sure curiosity will get them to install a server, even chose to, before they get an idea of tiddlywiki, if presented inappropriately they will think a server install is necessary.

The approach you suggest says "a user MUST consciously choose the single HTML", to me this is a barrier too many. A sparse empty.html is the next barrier in my view. With not contents tab its may be hard to find a tiddler again.

Regards

Tony

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[Rizwan Ishak]

I understand your point. The discussion essentially whittles down to: Should the single HTML file option be left chosen by default?

I myself won't be doing it. I believe it is  wrong to make people's choices for them based on untested assumptions, rather one should strive to make their choices clearer.

However if you want it that way, you merely have to add the default attribute with the value "html" to the first reveal widget in getting started tiddler. If this PR gets accepted, you can create a PR on top of this.

Sincerely,

Riz

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[Birthe C]

How many find Tiddlywiki by Google search, and what are the search word/words?

I have always thought people had read a positive article, a blog  or something. Had been evangelised irl or otherwise.

The many discussion concerning Roam Research I would imagine got many to look for alternatives, and Tiddlywiki were mentioned rather a lot.

Birthe

[Rizwan Ishak]

I found tiddlywiki searching for the following keywords:

"Open source cross platform alternatives to zim"

But that was years ago.

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[PMario]

On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 at 8:00:52 AM UTC+2, Riz wrote:

Ok. So single HTML file goes first. 

Is download saver the main option intended for promotion? I know it is universal, but most users would definitely want a better method. From what I understand from usual responses

I think,it's not the go-to target for every user, but every user should know it, as a version that works with every settin. Even if there are no "extensions" available.

May be we call it "default saver" and make the advantages clear. The rest may be called "advanced savers"

some thoughts

mario

[PMario]

On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 at 9:13:56 AM UTC+2, Saq Imtiaz wrote:

I do suggest TiddlyDesktop (TD) be highlighted in some way. There are simply too many options to choose from for a new user.

For a user choosing single file, I would go so far as to say that there should be only two options presented. One for local usage (TD), one for online, with everything else hidden away in a "explore more options" section.

hmmm .. that's a good point

-m

[Rizwan Ishak]

Default saver is prominently explained in the wizard intro. Will that do?

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[Birthe C]

Riz,

I think you have done a very good job, well presented!

I agree that options should not be hidden away, they doesn't need to with your gradual presenting.

I never searched to find tiddlywiki. At that time many years ago, I used what was perfect for my note taking. Treepad Business. It could be used for notes, todolist, calendars and all that sort of things. Small simple databases even. Easy to import to, and export from. Create html pages and presentations - and used portable. Nothing not to like. (It too had a long life, updated until last autumn in fact)

Above made it rather difficult to explain why I should change to tiddlywiki. Evangelising constantly, showing all sorts of lovely TWclassics- (it was at that time)- doing all sorts of work.

Really protesting I got tricked into testing a simple version. The wikis were coming steadily, so at one point i did not have time to use both for note taking. To this day I will argue, that a hidden template was transcluded into my brain, making me keep on and on and on.

Who can recreate that template for TW5?

@Måns, Thank you for ever!

Birthe

[Mark S.]

I have a lot of stuff still in treepad (Business). I didn't get the notice that they were shutting down. Now the site has been taken over by a marijuana dispensary. Sad.

The problem with treepad that I realized right away was that it had no community support. Apparently the developer had had one previously, but got tired of feedback.

On my list of things an information manager should have/be, is that it should have a vibrant support community. TW definitely fills that bill.

[Mark S.]

Beaker Browser is showing up as the first choice for "desktop" ? I guess the list is alphabetical. I've tried beaker and it was confusing and painful to set up. It would be a poor first choice for most people IMO.

Likewise Noteself is showing up first for cloud synchronization. I don't know if NS actually works, but the documentation became outdated when IBM made their extensive change less than a month after introduction. As I've mentioned multiple times, it doesn't appear possible to cleanly delete NS from your browser -- there are still pieces leftover which then block a new install.  To me, the Github saver should be first since it is built into the TW file already.

Under "servers", tiddlyservers would make a better first than IIS, which is really complicated IMO.

I'm not sure where it fits in, but Bob can now save individual files. So it should show up somewhere in the "single-file" options.

Thanks!

[TW Tones]

Mark, Bithe Me and more?

I too was a big user of treepad including TreePad Business. I always kept abreast of updates, It is sad to hear.

It was almost certainly why I looked for and found TiddlyWiki, because I wanted a higher level of customisation and automation than treepad (which was already better than most). 

Curious, clue to attracting new users?

TW Tones

[Birthe C]

Mark S, TW Tones,

It is rather funny. To use Treepad Business I have had to run it through WINE for years now. I was setting up some laptops, looked for update to Treepad, downloaded and all was fine. Then I thought I had forgotten some of the extras and decided to look for them the next day. That was when i saw the sign, that it was closing down due to financial problems with the cost of the site.  The last version from february 19, can be found on Wayback Machine.

Strange if satisfied Treepad users started using Tiddlywiki also. When i started using Tiddlywiki, at lot of users were also using treepad and puppy linux.

Måns and I created a puppy linux with only a browser installed, AND tiddlyhome, and a tiddly server and lots of dedicated tiddlywikies in an applet holder. Quite fun...using tiddlywiki for everything. portable all of it ;-). It was called TWOS

I wounder how using Linux and running treepad through WINE, that my rather big files are running really fast. I haven't had any Tiddlywiki of same huge size yet. I do not think it would be running.

Does Tiddlywiki users have other software use in common. We might find a gateway here.

Birthe

[Mark S.]

A lot of people end up at the "alternative-to" web site. I notice that they don't have TiddlyWiki listed as an alternative to Treepad. Or, if they do, it must be more than the 3 pages that I paginated. If someone doesn't beat me to it, I might set up a suggestion. It means setting up another account ;(

I used to use puppy linux all the time when I was running off a stick. Most other distributions try to pretend that a flash drive is the same as a regular drive, which inevitably corrupts the flash. The puppy linux had a system of layers, where the working layer would be periodically saved. This meant much reduced IO traffic. It was the first real linux  my daughter used, and now she's pretty much a diehard linux fan. (Arch, currently).  I think it might have been partially the cute Puppy mascot ;)

[TW Tones]

Riz,

I just realised one of my main workflow steps it I open tiddlywiki.com (usualy pinned in a tab) and I hit download empty. Whilst I download it, in chrome I don't care where, I just save it in a scratch folder and open it from the browser tray. 

I can then search, hack, import and test.

Even if its outside getting started, I would really like "Download Empty" to be a button somewhere on tiddlywiki.com's initial load.

Regards

Tony

On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 at 9:32:58 PM UTC+10, Riz wrote:

Default saver is prominently explained in the wizard intro. Will that do?

On Wed, 24 Jun 2020, 16:40 PMario, <pmar...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 at 8:00:52 AM UTC+2, Riz wrote:

Ok. So single HTML file goes first. 

Is download saver the main option intended for promotion? I know it is universal, but most users would definitely want a better method. From what I understand from usual responses

I think,it's not the go-to target for every user, but every user should know it, as a version that works with every settin. Even if there are no "extensions" available.

May be we call it "default saver" and make the advantages clear. The rest may be called "advanced savers"

some thoughts

mario

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[Rizwan Ishak]

Top bar would be a good location.

Sincerely,

Riz

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[Riz]

So minor changes:

1. Single file is the first option now among flavours
2. TiddlyDesktop is the first option among savers
3. Tiddlyserver is specially mentioned in Installing Nod.JS Tiddler. I guess people who look for node will be the ones most interested to try out Tiddlyserver.