Noteself on TiddlySpot? @Danielo

[Mat]

@Danielo

NoteSelf is super interesting.

Is it possible to host a NoteSelf on TiddlySpot, i.e so that tiddlers are automatically and NoteSelf'ically saved in my local browser - but if I want to "hard save" the TW, I upload it to TiddlySpot and so it can be accessed from any other device. 

In attempting this, I crated a TW5 on TiddlySpot (e.g here) and drag'n dropped all special plugins from NoteSelf into it. The resulting TW unfortunately cannot load but gives the red embarassement and the message:

Uncaught ReferenceError: $TPouch is not defined

Is it just not possible? Does NoteSelf require functionality outside of the TW and its installed NS-plugins?

Thank you!

<:-)

[Danielo Rodríguez]

Hello Mat
From Noteself point of view this does not make much sense. Noteself is designed as an application for working offline on your browser with support for an specific kind of backend for server side storage. Any scenario out of that one is not officially supported and I didn't take it in account while designing Noteself.
Please note that Noteself is a tiddlywiky edition and it relies on a set of heavily opinionated modifications over the normal tiddlywiky edition.

That said, I have always aimed at providing maximum compatibility with tiddlywiky and it's ecosystem (not sure why, to be honest). This can lead to some people making fun experiments that work and some others that does not. For example, the recent bug fixes allows you to download your entire wiki as an standalone file with the tiddlers hard-coded on the html as usual while keeping the ability of adding more tiddlers on top of the local database. Like some short of snapshot system.
I'm not sure right now how the download mechanism works. It may be my own plugin baking the tiddlers and then downloading the file or it may allow the next saving mechanism handle the work.
The error you are reporting seems to be more related to one limitation tiddlywiky has. If you install a plugin that requires raw tiddlers to be installed on the head section of the html file (like tiddlypouch does) you will have to reload the wiki twice. This is not a problem on the file edition, but it is a real pain in the neck for cloud saving mechanisms.
Your best bet is to go to the online version, configure your tiddlyspot credentials and attempt to upload from there.

Good luck

[Matias Goldman]

Thanx for reply Danielo!

 

From Noteself point of view this does not make much sense. Noteself is designed as an application for working offline on your browser with support for an specific kind of backend for server side storage. Any scenario out of that one is not officially supported and I didn't take it in account while designing Noteself.

When saying "specific kind of backend for server side storage", are you referring to what CloudAnt provide (provided), or what?

Basically, my idea here is merely to use TiddlySpot as the backend server side storage. I can fully understand that this was not what you had in mind... but it would be really neat if it worked. Many people are familiar with TiddlySpot and uploading to it is of course already integrated in native TW... even in NoteSelf! Now that CloudAnt requires payment, I think it would be super useful if NoteSelf could use other simple server storages as backend.

 

Please note that Noteself is a tiddlywiky edition and it relies on a set of heavily opinionated modifications over the normal tiddlywiky edition.

No prob. As long as it's TW it's all(?) modifiable :-) 

That said, I have always aimed at providing maximum compatibility with tiddlywiky and it's ecosystem (not sure why, to be honest). This can lead to some people making fun experiments that work and some others that does not. For example, the recent bug fixes allows you to download your entire wiki as an  standalone file with the tiddlers hard-coded on the html as usual while keeping the ability of adding more tiddlers on top of the local database. Like some short of snapshot system.

I, for one, really appreciate your aim for TW compatability. I also think it makes sense; I think your NoteSelf user base mostly comes from the TW community so it's probably a good idea to aim for compatability.

 

I'm not sure right now how the download mechanism works. It may be my own plugin baking the tiddlers and then downloading the file or it may allow the next saving mechanism handle the work.
The error you are reporting seems to be more related to one limitation tiddlywiky has. If you install a plugin that requires raw tiddlers to be installed on the head section of the html file (like tiddlypouch does) you will have to reload the wiki twice. This is not a problem on the file edition, but it is a real pain in the neck for cloud saving mechanisms.

Any way around this?

 

Your best bet is to go to the online version, configure your tiddlyspot credentials and attempt to upload from there.

Fails when attempting.

Anybody else succeeds? If I understand Danielo correct, it is simply to:

 go to https://noteself.github.io/ 

click "online"

and in the Controlpanel > Saving > Tiddlyspot ..fill in the tiddlyspot site + password and upload.

<:-)

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mat

Even though I am Dumbo I find your notes on this dumb. :-) Lol!

Mat wrote:

Basically, my idea here is merely to use TiddlySpot as the backend server side storage.

Errm. TiddlySpot is NOT a database, its a page saver. Noteself saves its contents to a DATABASE.

The best you might get is a TiddlySpot TW as a PUBLIC instance. That could be useful. You will still need a backend.

Josiah

[Matias Goldman]

2018-01-27 16:09 GMT+01:00 @TiddlyTweeter <tiddly...@assays.tv>:

Ciao Mat

Even though I am Dumbo I find your notes on this dumb. :-) Lol! 

Haha! You may be right (Even the sun has its spots, to quote my old English teacher)

 

Mat wrote:

Basically, my idea here is merely to use TiddlySpot as the backend server side storage.

Errm. TiddlySpot is NOT a database, its a page saver. Noteself saves its contents to a DATABASE.

Well, I only proposed to use TS as a storage. Does NoteSelf require a separate database - isn't that what that TiddlyPouch/Couch is? I.e what uses my local browser to store stuff?

 

The best you might get is a TiddlySpot TW as a PUBLIC instance. That could be useful. You will still need a backend.

Does NS require more than the modified TW document and the browser database? What functionality is not contained in those two parts? What is actually stored in the backend, or what does it do?

Thanks!

<:-)

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mat

If you thinking of TiddlySpot saves a Noteself made solo on computer with only local Pouch I CAN'T see the point. It adds nothing to what we do already. Just use a normal TW.

It only gets exciting with live on-line connect to that remote DB that lets you "do-it" from many places. I can't tell you what is in the backend much other than it supports a JSON data structure and excellent synch.

Josiah

[Matias Goldman]

If you thinking of TiddlySpot saves a Noteself made solo on computer with only local Pouch I CAN'T see the point. It adds nothing to what we do already. Just use a normal TW.

Well normal TW doesn't save automatically in such a superbly convenient way that NoteSelf does. That's a pretty big deal, at least for me. 

 

It only gets exciting with live on-line connect to that remote DB that lets you "do-it" from many places. I can't tell you what is in the backend much other than it supports a JSON data structure.

I agree that is the most exciting part, if multiple users. 

<:-) 

[@TiddlyTweeter]

 Mat wrote:

If you thinking of TiddlySpot saves a Noteself made solo on computer with only local Pouch I CAN'T see the point. It adds nothing to what we do already. Just use a normal TW.

Well normal TW doesn't save automatically in such a superbly convenient way that NoteSelf does. That's a pretty big deal, at least for me.

RIGHT. Right on. Add it to Saving Methods, please.

Josiah.

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mat wrote:

Well normal TW doesn't save automatically in such a superbly convenient way that NoteSelf does. That's a pretty big deal, at least for me.

The save method to "Browser Storage" is brilliant and outlives the Apocalypse. Its easy-peasy with no need for special steps. The only problem is what happens is if your browser fails, OR you want to transport to a new one. Add some kinda backup of whole TW and you are really there.

This should be an Option on page One. IMO.

Josiah

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mat wrote:

I agree that is the most exciting part, if multiple users.

Not quite there yet.

Noteself supports multiple users (one by one) but not simultaneous guaranteed reliable yet. IT points the way.

Josiah

[Ste Wilson]

I tried to set up a multi user instance over xmas but NoteSelf doesn't quite work the way I thought it did.
If I hosted it then when logging in on a fresh browser its empty till the NoteSelf details are entered because this info is stored in the browser and not the tiddlywiki.
The export options (I assume to start an instance with the NoteSelf info baked into the tiddlywiki) always resulted in the red screen of embarrassment.
I'm not sure if this is because the downloaded name is different to the original name or what..
What this means is that I can't host a NoteSelf Wiki that anyone can view and can be logged into for editing.
I'm not sure if I've missed the point somewhere or if I'm just encountering bugs.

Stephen.

[Mat]

On Saturday, January 27, 2018 at 5:41:21 PM UTC+1, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:

Well normal TW doesn't save automatically in such a superbly convenient way that NoteSelf does. That's a pretty big deal, at least for me.

RIGHT. Right on. Add it to Saving Methods, please.

@Danielo - is the mechanism for automatic saving to browser possible to turn into a plugin for TW? I.e a plugin that can be installed like any other plugin.

<:-)

[@TiddlyTweeter]

An issue with Noteself is it is a relationship between you and a data server. That makes it work. Its a PRIVATE matter. Getting it OUT THERE, on web, is something else. Not yet so well addressed ...

Ste Wilson wrote upon a bunch of issues, amongst which were ...

... What this means is that I can't host a NoteSelf Wiki that anyone can view ...

[TonyM]

Danielo,

I see noteself as providing great solutions for online tools, visit, interact, save (in browser) which is a real potential strength of tiddlywiki, if we could only then connect to a counch DB or save to local file and retain the content outside that browser (should the need arise)  further installing it on my android was one of the most impressive features with a dedicated Icon and saving capabilities. No need for nodeJS or fiddly folders.

I would be keen to see a little more work to take noteself a little further because It has a powerful use case to make TiddlyWiki more popular, it helps in the first interaction and adoption process, even with only pouchDB not couchDB, it is an immediately functional solution. This is a single user approach. 

With a little work I believe we can take the existing techniques CounchDB and other savers and wrap a little logic around it to allow a single instance be checked in/out enabling multiple users across time to work on the same instance.

Somehow I feel that moving it from an edition to a plugin would be a big step in that direction.

I also think this is a opportunity for some degree of commercialisation, which I think I recall you expressing an interest it. I would be keen to continue the conversation on this, privately or in the forum.

Regards

Tony

[Danielo Rodríguez]

Ah, all the good old misconceptions about  NoteSelf arising again, makes me feel nostalgic, thanks google groups for effectively burring all the valuable information where nobody can find it.

Let's split this by parts, and try to answer all the questions/misconceptions. Don't expect them to be in order.

NoteSelf (NS) is my own little project, hope everyone is clear about that. As the main page states, it arises from my own necessities and therefor it addresses them the way I like it. Sometime after it's conception I thought that it will be cool to share my custom solution with the community on an easy manner and that is when NoteSelf come out.

The main objective of NS is to bring my custom solution in an easy way for the masses, and that will always be. I am a very active person with dozens of projects, leaving me little time to support custom requirements. I want to provide general solutions, and leave the rest to advanced/adventurous users on their own. 

That said, I always targeted modularity (more on this later), flexibility and compatibility. This means that the required ingredients are already out there, but I will only cook them to build NS the way I think it should be. There is nothing stopping anyone else from picking those ingredients and cooking them on a different way, but expect little help from me.

@Danielo - is the mechanism for automatic saving to browser possible to turn into a plugin for TW? I.e a plugin that can be installed like any other plugin.

That will never happen, I mean, me working for turning the automatic saving mechanism into a plugin. The reason ? Because it always was. Please read below.

I want to remark once again that NS is a tiddlywiki edition, not a plugin, nor a tutorial neither a showcase. It is a product. But a product built the way I think it should be: making the different parts as general as possible and add mixing them the way I want.  This is very noticeable if you ever open the plugins tab of NoteSelf. You will se the following ones:

• PuchDb library. Yes, even something as important to NS as the pouchdb library is a standalone plugin. Do you want to experiment with it ? GO for it! The heavy lifting has been already done
• TiddlyPouch. Where everything started. Everyone seems to forget about it in favor of NS edition (which is exactly what I wanted). This was my original idea, a saving plugin implementing the PouchDB saving mechanism. It turned out that it was confusing for 99% of the users.
• NoteSelf online configurations. A collection of configurations specific for the online version of NS
• NS Plugin library. Not listed as a plugin, but it actually exists. The reason ? Because NS cares about security, and it is served through https. At that time, TW didn't support https for the plugin library, so I had to build my own.

Not to mention a collection of other non-plugin tiddlers that improve the NS experience. NoteSelf components are spread across 5 ( five! ) different repositories

• Pouchdb TW plugin
• TiddlyPouch
• Noteself page and online edition, containing all the configurations that I want to be part of NS edition
• Android application 
• Cloudant configurator, a small tool to help people configure their cloudant accounts for multi user environments.

I work really hard to keep those repositories consistent and properly linked. That's why when someone asks me to split NS into pieces I get so against. It already is ! I can't split it more than it is without losing the control.

Several of the most common problems have been fixed recently, so I encourage everyone that was interested to check again. For example:

The only problem is what happens is if your browser fails, OR you want to transport to a new one. Add some kinda backup of whole TW and you are really there.

That is already a reality. All you have to do is click on the save button and boom, you will get an HTML snapshot of your wiki with the entire collection of plugins directly baked into the HTML. The cool thing is that you can open that file and continue saving to the local database since it also includes all the required plugins. If this is not sufficient for you you will have to convince me that there are dozens of potential users on the same situation.  

If I hosted it then when logging in on a fresh browser its empty till the NoteSelf details are entered because this info is stored in the browser and not the tiddlywiki.

That is a know limitation and it will continue to be until I find a good and more or less secure way to embed that information on the exported file. Note that NS can handle several local databases talking to several remote ones. If  I allow one of them to be baked into the HTML and take precedence you will lose access to the rest.

I also want to make public that the export section of the control panel is outdated. It's something that I want to fix, improve and make more clear, but I have to find the time, or let someone with the will to help to find me, two very exceptional scenarios.

What this means is that I can't host a NoteSelf Wiki that anyone can view and can be logged into for editing. 
I'm not sure if I've missed the point somewhere or if I'm just encountering bugs.

At some time, that will become much much easier, and you will not even need to host it yourself. 

Well, I only proposed to use TS as a storage. Does NoteSelf require a separate database - isn't that what that TiddlyPouch/Couch is? I.e what uses my local browser to store stuff?

Pouch is your local browser storage, Couch is a database just like Oracle or MySql and will always be remote. TS can not be used as an alternative storage because tiddlywiki only accepts ONE saving mechanism ( not to be confused with sync mechanism). At the very beginning I wanted to allow all kind of saving combinations, then I reached this limitation. So I keep my efforts realistic and instead of trying TW do something it is not designed to do, I focused on only  remote syncing and reliable HTML download.

 further installing it on my android was one of the most impressive features with a dedicated Icon and saving capabilities. No need for nodeJS or fiddly folders.

Glad you liked that feature, you're probably the first reported user (apart from me) taking advantage of this. Many thanks. 

With a little work I believe we can take the existing techniques CounchDB and other savers and wrap a little logic around it to allow a single instance be checked in/out enabling multiple users across time to work on the same instance.

You are right about the possibility, but you are wrong about the amount of work. It is not little, it is bigger than I can handle in a short period of time.

I also think this is a opportunity for some degree of commercialisation, which I think I recall you expressing an interest it. I would be keen to continue the conversation on this, privately or in the forum.

I don't have any problem in discussing this publicly on the forum. Yes, my intention is to make NS a comercial product, but only to the degree that it can own itself. This means, that mean that it's expenses are fulfilled by it's incommings while allowing me to have a quality service for free at the same time.

Hopefully the situation is clearer now and everybody is happy with the answers.

I hope anybody feels dumb about asking, several of this questions deserve to be on the FAQ of NS( who reads the FAQs after all) and this google groups mechanism does not help neither.

I know I am not as active as I used to be. That's because NS is on a mature state, mature enough to fit all my needs. The same happens to TW, when someone has it configured to it's likings it stops reading and posting to this group. Hopefully there are some active members that points me here from time to time.

All the best to everyone.

Regards

[Diego Mesa]

Hey Danielo,

Just so Im clear, if I am working locally with a regular TW file, everything lives inside that file. Meaning, if I protect that single file, I cannot lose my data (within reason).

If I am working locally with a NS wiki, if I or someone else asks my browser to clear everything from all time, all of the content of my current NS wiki will be lost?

If I had downloaded an html version of my NS wiki prior to the browser clearning, its contents will still survive inside that file.

Is all of this correct? I just want to be clear about the steps that could lead to data loss.

Thank you
Diego

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Danielo explained that you can NOW SAVE to a full TW.

Every sweat users have should be reduced by that to near zero.

The point is that whilst storing In Browser there was a sweat about losing everything IF the browser went AWOL, that no longer applies so long as you click the full-save method.

Josiah

Diego Mesa wrote:

Hey Danielo,

Just so Im clear, if I am working locally with a regular TW file, everything lives inside that file. Meaning, if I protect that single file, I cannot lose my data (within reason).

Not quite. It lives in a DATABASE within the Browser Storage. Its pretty robust. IF you also also using it with Cloudant remote DB its very, very recoverable, since you have local AND remote. AND with clickable save back to a full TW you covered all the bases.

[TonyM]

Danielo,

Thanks for your extensive response, such contributions to the community should never be a "rod for your back". I respect your position. We must all respect your time.

What is important to understand is however that your solution solves some of tiddlywikis existing limitations and uses concepts not all users are familiar with, including doing so in a transparent way.

• Ability to save (in Browser cache) changes from a served website.
  
• Quick build what looks like an android app
  
• External Database connections
  
• Save as from Browser or Database implementation

Unfortunately I expect these features will keep stimulating others to extrapolate the possibilities. As have I.

I encourage other developers to help us deliver the above to the community, because through this we can accelerate adoption.. 

I will pass on information in future forum questions if I can help, including a link to here.

Thanks Again.

Regards

Tony

[Danielo Rodríguez]

Is exactly as Josiah has explained.

Regards 

[Ste Wilson]

Cheers for the comprehensive reply.
I do use the android app and appreciate it.
Thank you :)

[Danielo Rodríguez]

Glad to see that someone apart from me uses it.

Report back any issue.

Regards 

[Danielo Rodríguez]

Hello TonyM

El martes, 30 de enero de 2018, 2:58:42 (UTC+1), TonyM escribió:

Danielo,

Thanks for your extensive response, such contributions to the community should never be a "rod for your back". I respect your position. We must all respect your time.

At the end nobody forces me to do this. I do it because I love tiddlywiki and I love open source.

 

What is important to understand is however that your solution solves some of tiddlywikis existing limitations and uses concepts not all users are familiar with, including doing so in a transparent way.

• Ability to save (in Browser cache) changes from a served website.
  
• Quick build what looks like an android app
  

Actually there is an actual android app 

• External Database connections
  
• Save as from Browser or Database implementation

Unfortunately I expect these features will keep stimulating others to extrapolate the possibilities. As have I.

I encourage other developers to help us deliver the above to the community, because through this we can accelerate adoption.. 

I don't fully understand what is what you expect. If it does all what you want, why do you want to extrapolate anything. If you are going to forward any developer to NS I think the most productive way would be to collaborate to the project, and lower the entry barrier. Forking it and going their way will only duplicate efforts.