Presenting: SetUp - a guide to set up a great TW system

[Mat]

So, you want your TW to...

• function well on your phone? 
  
• auto-sync with your many devices?
  
• work as a shared family wiki with to-do lists, reference matter and all?
• ...or even as a corporate system, with simultaneous editing?
• ...and automatic backups?
• be totally off-the-grid on a RasPi server?
  
• or you want tools to manage all those TWs of yours? 

Well, maybe it's possible....

The ol' TWaddler proudly presents...

SetUp

- a guide to help you navigate to the TW system you want

This was previously named "BackEnd" but SetUp is more appropriate given that it concerns TW-specific: Savers, Servers, Services and Managers

As you can see on that site, if you experiment a little and tick some check-boxes, a lot of info is missing. You may disagree or want to add or to remove either of...

• SetUps
  
• criteria (i.e the "features" listed that a user may look at to decide what suits him)
  
• options for the criteria
  
• or even the categorization into "savers, servers, services and managers"
  

Well, I need help with this information. I barely know what a server is... but I do know how to copy-paste text so if you guys provide the info, I do the foot work.

The point is to help anyone... no, I mean everyone!.. to get the most out of TW. It really concerns all of us, so please do a good deed and help out. The TiddlyGods will reward you.

<:-)

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mat

2 quick comments ... purely aesthetic ...

1 -- Of firefox & chrome for me on Windows I get this ...

What is the character you want on those boxes? Another Unicode might work better?

Minor thing the overlay of the two menus--but could cause unintended events :-)

I'll comment about substance once I looked properly.

Best wishes
Josiah

[Mark S.]

Hi Mat,

I'm not sure how this is supposed to work. But I've got a bunch of starter questions.

I clicked on savers.

On Firefox, the icon after "Click there and there" doesn't render (utf substitute icon). On Chrome, they show up as checkboxes, but I don't know what they are indicating. What am I supposed to be clicking on?

Why do all the non-full options have a grayed-out "tw" ?

I'm thinking that there is something missing that should be hinting that I want to click on the various columns. Since they just show up as links, at first I thought they were just informational. Maybe a line of text explaining what to do?

Thanks!
-- Mark

[Mat]

Thanks Josiah

I've changed the arrows (they were nice and visible, now instead slim barely visible but should at least work)

The other thing up in the right corner is kind of not needed by the visitors so I'm thinking I can leave it like that... at least for now :-)

Thanks

<:-)

[Mark S.]

When I click on "dependencies" and click "No", nothing changes. Shouldn't only "basic TW file" be showing up on the list?

Thanks!
-- Mark

On Saturday, May 26, 2018 at 10:55:34 AM UTC-7, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:

[Mohammad]

Great efforts Mat!

Thank you

[Mark S.]

"follwing" sb "following"

[Mat]

Mark

thanks for input and sorry for confusions ;-)

I hope the upper left "Click there / and here" is now clear. The images were supposed to be arrows pointing to the links. I changed the text now as well.

The idea is that only the first "saver/server/service/manager" checking - the "type" filtering - is a real disqualifier from being seen. Thereafter, the setups remain in the matrix for easy comparison.

A green mark indicates that a setup matches a requirement OR, more typically that the user didn't set a requirement (...which means it is fulfilled)

A yellow mark indicates that a requirement is partially fulfilled (and that the user has set multiple requirements for the criteria)

A red mark indicates that no requirement in a criteria is fulfilled.

Writing this makes me realize you're right; it is definitely not as obvious as I felt it was. Good you're pointing it out.

<:-)

[@TiddlyTweeter]

I went through the table.

Its a seriously difficult filtering job.

TBH I'm not sure the "red crosses" add anything. Green ticks would be the main selection guide for a user? The non-matches I do not think need to be explicit?

Also sometimes you get a Green tick with the word "No" below it. I got a bit confused with those.

I think it will improve when you get more data.

You list Android as a browser and an OS. Its principally an OS I think. There are Android Apps for TW, perhaps that is what you meant?

Anyway
I think its important what you doing. Don't want to come over negative.

On Saturday, 26 May 2018 19:35:02 UTC+2, Mat wrote:

[Mark S.]

Hi Mat,

Are the 3 categories (green, yellow, red) explained? I would put them right at the top of the chart.

When I check "savers" and then look for offline savers, nothing is checked. Yet almost all the mentioned savers work offline (except maybe TWITS and TiddlyDrive).

Also, AndTidWiki has "Chrome" in the "browser" column. But AndTidWiki is it's own browser and doesn't depend on FF or Chrome.

Any of the items with checkmarks act as links when you hover over them, but nothing happens when you click on them. Are they supposed to go somewhere?

Thanks!
-- Mark

[Jed Carty]

I am not sure how to answer some of the questions about Bob here, but this is my attempt:

it is a plugin that lets you save tiddlers, so it could be a saver, it serves the wikis so it may be a server (but it isn't a separate piece of software, so I don't know), and it lets you have multiple wikis so it may be a manager but I am not certain what the 'as objects' part means.

Autobackup: no (maybe later)

Browser: any standard

data-storage-location: it is a server, but the device you are using it on could be the server so I am not sure what to say about that.

dependencies: nodejs for the plugin version, none for the single executable version

encryption: no (same as the normal nodejs version, possibly coming later)

file or folder: I am not sure what this means, you have switchable so lets go with that

format: I don't know what this means

mobile first: no

multi-user: yes

os: any for the plugin, windows osx and linux for the single executable

portable: no for the plugin (same as normal nodejs), yes for the single executable

versioning: no

works offline: yes

Bob may need two entries, one for the node plugin version and one for the single executable version.

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Jed: file or folder: I am not sure what this means, you have switchable so lets go with that

I think Mat means whether the system runs  TW is for single html wiki (file) or Tid based (folder) or both. For instance TiddlyDesktop is both. Bob I think is just folder (even though you can generate the html one-files from it)?

[Mat]

@TiddlyTweeter wrote:

I went through the table.

Its a seriously difficult filtering job.

TBH I'm not sure the "red crosses" add anything. Green ticks would be the main selection guide for a user? The non-matches I do not think need to be explicit?

I'm considering this but letting it be at the moment. 

Also sometimes you get a Green tick with the word "No" below it. I got a bit confused with those.

I added a "SetUp has:" to signify that the SetUp has this value. Hopefully more clear now. 

I think it will improve when you get more data.

No doubt.

 

You list Android as a browser and an OS. Its principally an OS I think.

Corrected.

 

There are Android Apps for TW, perhaps that is what you meant?

I'm not aware of such. Where?

 

Anyway
I think its important what you doing. Don't want to come over negative.

Constructive criticism; bring it on!

 

<:-)

[Mat]

Mark S. wrote:

Are the 3 categories (green, yellow, red) explained? I would put them right at the top of the chart.

Added. 

When I check "savers" and then look for offline savers, nothing is checked. Yet almost all the mentioned savers work offline (except maybe TWITS and TiddlyDrive).

Added info. 

Also, AndTidWiki has "Chrome" in the "browser" column. But AndTidWiki is it's own browser and doesn't depend on FF or Chrome.

Corrected. 

Any of the items with checkmarks act as links when you hover over them, but nothing happens when you click on them. Are they supposed to go somewhere?

If you mean the cells in the matrix, where the green/yellow/red appears, then this is now corrected. (In the admin version, they are, in deed, buttons)

Thanks Mark, good input. Please help fill in more if you can.

<:-)

[Mat]

Mark S. wrote:

Are the 3 categories (green, yellow, red) explained? I would put them right at the top of the chart.

Added. 

When I check "savers" and then look for offline savers, nothing is checked. Yet almost all the mentioned savers work offline (except maybe TWITS and TiddlyDrive).

Added info. 

Also, AndTidWiki has "Chrome" in the "browser" column. But AndTidWiki is it's own browser and doesn't depend on FF or Chrome.

Corrected. 

Any of the items with checkmarks act as links when you hover over them, but nothing happens when you click on them. Are they supposed to go somewhere?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mat asked:

TT: There are Android Apps for TW, perhaps that is what you meant?

I'm not aware of such. Where?

AndTidWiki is an App in Google Store: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=de.mgsimon.android.andtidwiki&hl=en

NoteSelf has an Android App version in Beta at: https://github.com/NoteSelf/android-app/releases

[Mat]

Jed Carty wrote:

First, yes, makes sense to differentiate between node plugin version and single executable version so I did this now. but note I'm not sure I got the data 100% correct and i still have some editing to do with it. (there's also some CSS problem so the popups don't cut the text properly when you click the SetUp title)

Please note that the criteria you have difficulty with are probably because they are poor guesses to begin with, from my side. 

Here are some questions based on what you write here.

it is a plugin that lets you save tiddlers, so it could be a saver, it serves the wikis so it may be a server (but it isn't a separate piece of software, so I don't know), and it lets you have multiple wikis so it may be a manager but I am not certain what the 'as objects' part means.

The idea is that a user should find what is important. If it is a server, I'm guessing that it is simply assumed that one can also save to it so I would just call it a server. 

 

I've removed the "as objects" part in the descriptions for managers.

Autobackup: no (maybe later)

(I've set it to "no" because to different degrees all solutions can have "maybe later" ;-)

 

data-storage-location: it is a server, but the device you are using it on could be the server so I am not sure what to say about that.

I changed options to include "Server location" and made a note that this can mean "on your local device".

 

dependencies: nodejs for the plugin version, none for the single executable version

I've redefined "dependencies" to mean dependency on something outside of the actual SetUp. The SetUp obviously depends on itself to function but it may also require some other supporting software or service to funciton. I have rephrased the description for dependencies but will rephrase it again to say basically what I just wrote here.

file or folder: I am not sure what this means, you have switchable so lets go with that

Maybe single-file or multi-file would make more sense... The idea is that the single file nature of standard TW has been highlighted as a key feature. How can I capture this aspect and what other aspects stand in contrast to this one?

 

format: I don't know what this means

It may be a poorly chosen term and I welcome any better one. What I mean, which can be seen when clicking that criteria, is how the SetUp solution is "packaged" or manifested, i.e as a html-file, a browser add-on, an app etc. I know I feel differently about, say, a browser add-on compared to a separate app/program. Any better term? 

os: any for the plugin, windows osx and linux for the single executable

Is OSX same thing as MacOS?

 

<:-)

[Mat]

@TiddlyTweeter wrote:

AndTidWiki is an App in Google Store: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=de.mgsimon.android.andtidwiki&hl=en

Hm, Mark just said it is a browser in itself. Are there two variants of it?

NoteSelf has an Android App version in Beta at: https://github.com/NoteSelf/android-app/releases

 I should ask about the distinctions on the NoteSelf board.

Thanks!

<:-)

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mat wrote:

The idea is that a user should find what is important. If it is a server, I'm guessing that it is simply assumed that one can also save to it so I would just call it a server. 

This is a fascinating discussion. Because it illustrates the endless issue of describing/typifying TW for diffrent types of uses/user.

Take Bob as an example. I know, intellectually, it is a "server". But to me its a self-contained application that does stuff. I don't need to bother about whether its a server or not. All I need to know is how to do things in it.

I guess, when I hear "server", I think more of some special thing I need to spend hours (days) understanding and implementing. That I'd need to be tech savvy about and know how to type directly into a console.

OF COURSE my thinking is a cliche. But a significant one of an "end-user", I think.

Just saying
Josiah

[Mat]

@TiddlyTweeter wrote:

I guess, when I hear "server", I think more of some special thing I need to spend hours (days) understanding and implementing. That I'd need to be tech savvy about and know how to type directly into a console.

How about: configure proxy settings, CORS, mysterious ip-addresses that one is supposed to somehow know and write in some field with weird dots, config files, sys admin rights, a few registry tweaks, some obvious BIOS settings and "whaddyamean you don't know Linux"?

That's enough for anyone to cr*p his pants. (No, not 'crop')

A better thing than this "matrix" is probably some Wizard that holds your hand and asks questions with a minimum amount of lingo. Still, I think this matrix is a necessary step to collect the data and get a general overview of it all, not least to iterate out what the sensible parameters actually are. A bit ironic that I am doing this given how my pants looks from just writing those words.

<:-)

[Mark S.]

I'm not sure why Beaker Browser, AndTidWiki, and Quine are on the "servers" page. I would put them on "Savers".

AndTidWiki says that it has a dependency "other software". The only dependency that I know of is the AndTidWiki application itself -- it doesn't need anything else.

Thanks!
-- Mark

[Mat]

Mark S. wrote:

I'm not sure why Beaker Browser, AndTidWiki, and Quine are on the "servers" page. I would put them on "Savers".

AndTidWiki says that it has a dependency "other software". The only dependency that I know of is the AndTidWiki application itself -- it doesn't need anything else.

Mark; appreciated and corrected.

<:-)

[Mark S.]

I think "basic tw on node.js" should be the same as "Bob" except multi-user is "no".

Possibly for both OS should be "any OS with node.js" since some people have gotten node.js to work on termux.

Maybe "format" should include "executable" for setups like "Bob single user"?

The currently empty fields of Tiddly server should be just like Bob multi-user except not "multi-user". Also, ts has backup option for single tw file backups.

All the links in the right column go to the "Getting Started" page where the user has to start over again. Perhaps you could link to the permalink for the topic rather than going through a detour.? Also on a small device, the result of hitting the blue links in "Getting Started" is almost invisible to a user, appearing down below out of sight.


Thanks!
Mark

[Mat]

Mark, much appreciated again. I've implemented some of your points but will have to do the rest in the next few days.

<:-)

[Mat]

Mark S. wrote:

I think "basic tw on node.js" should be the same as "Bob" except multi-user is "no".

Done.

 

Possibly for both OS should be "any OS with node.js" since some people have gotten node.js to work on termux.

Done. Any others that should fall into this criteria as well?

 

Maybe "format" should include "executable" for setups like "Bob single user"?

I have a criteria called "App". Does this cover it or is an app something else?

The currently empty fields of Tiddly server should be just like Bob multi-user except not "multi-user". Also, ts has backup option for single tw file backups.

So no mistake; "Bob on Node" or "Bob single exec."?

All the links in the right column go to the "Getting Started" page where the user has to start over again. Perhaps you could link to the permalink for the topic rather than going through a detour.? Also on a small device, the result of hitting the blue links in "Getting Started" is almost invisible to a user, appearing down below out of sight.

OK, I removed the links to GettingStarted. 

Again, thank you Mark. Much appreciated.

<:-)

[Mark S.]

Hi Mat,

You probably already know this, but you have 2 copies of "basic tw on node.js" on the servers filter.

AndTidwiki:

autobackup: no
data-storage: local-device
enc: Native-iTw-enc.
format: html-file
(not "browser in itself" which s.b. for the "browser" column)
mlti-user: no
OS: Android
portable: no
versioning: no

I don't use iOS, but I believe Quine is the equivalent of AndTidWiki on that platform. So everything would be the same except OS.

Thanks!
Mark

On Saturday, May 26, 2018 at 10:35:02 AM UTC-7, Mat wrote:

[Mark S.]

Hi Mat,

On Monday, May 28, 2018 at 2:13:49 AM UTC-7, Mat wrote:

Done. Any others that should fall into this criteria as well?

 

Maybe "format" should include "executable" for setups like "Bob single user"?

I have a criteria called "App". Does this cover it or is an app something else?

Twenty years ago there would have been no ambiguity. I've noticed that these days an "App" almost always refers to a small application that runs on a smart phone or tablet. It's more of a "What is the first thing you think of" kind of question.

 

The currently empty fields of Tiddly server should be just like Bob multi-user except not "multi-user". Also, ts has backup option for single tw file backups.

So no mistake; "Bob on Node" or "Bob single exec."?

"Bob on Node", I think.
 

"File Backups" would definitely be in the "saver" category.

Thanks!
Mark

[Mat]

Excellent. I've added the AndTidWiki stuff and Quine

You probably already know this, but you have 2 copies of "basic tw on node.js" on the servers filter.

I'm a bit uncertain on this: the double copies was from marking "basic TW on Node.js" as a server, so it turned up double because both the "basic TW on node.js" och "basic TW single file" are permanently included for comparison. Maybe that, i.e to have those two permanently on top, is not a good idea? But if I classify "TW on node" as a server, what should I then classify "basic TW singel file" as? 

<:-)

[Mark S.]

I'm always for consistency. Except when I'm not ;-)

IMHO ...

basic TW on node.js is a server. (it always needs the user to start a server)

basic TW single file is a saver. (it always saves a local file)

Thanks!
Mark

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mark S. wrote:

I'm always for consistency. Except when I'm not ;-)

basic TW on node.js is a server. (it always needs the user to start a server)
basic TW single file is a saver. (it always saves a local file)

I'd be interested how you think about TiddlyDesktop.

It supports both "single files" and "folders." In "folder mode" its running an internal server. But do we need to know that? What does it add knowing that in case of TD?

This has brought up the issue of dependencies v. "self-contained". For instance, do I really need to know Bob is a server? Not that I shouldn't, but what does that knowledge add to practical function? My interest in Bob is what it does, not how its constituted. Like TiddlyDesktop, it is self-contained. Once an "app" is self contained, who cares, so long as it does the job.

I think its a bit like cars. I'm really not interested whether its an 85 cylinder thing. What does it DO? :-)

[Mark S.]

I would consider TD a saver, even though it uses an internal server because you never see the effects of using the server. The server and the gui have been combined into one application. Also, and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think you can use it anywhere on your local network. I guess if it's on localhost it might be possible, but that's not the way it's usually used.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that when you run Bob you *must* view it in a browser. So you have 2 things going. The user has to start the server, and the user has to open a browser window. And, the user can, if they want, open the server up to the local router. So Bob is a server. If you were explaining Bob to someone, you would have to point out this distinction -- it wouldn't be invisible.

About cars, I remember that the goal of auto design at one time was to reduce the number of moving parts. Then, in a marketing ploy, manufacturers started touting the number of valves cars had. It was never clear to me why it should be a good thing for a car to have lots of valves, but apparently someone had decided that more was better.

-- Mark

[Lost Admin]

Filling in a few more blanks (may have already been done and not on setup yet):

WebDAV

dependencies : Apache (tested) or IIS (tested), or Sabre/DAV (not tested); possibly also supported on Nginx

format : html

OS : Any (Apache) or windows (IIS)

Portable : No (or maybe with Apache portableapps)

PHP (store.php)

Dependencies : Web server & PHP (confirmed on Apache 2.4 with php 5.6)

Format : html

Portable : No (or maybe with Apache portableapps)

NoteSelf

Encryption : no

file-or-folder : neither

format : json

Portable : no (I'm open to being corrected but I didn't find a portableapps option)

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mark S.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that when you run Bob you *must* view it in a browser.

Right you MUST.

But its a bit of non-sequiter in the end. ALL methods require a browser to see render. Some have it built in. TD uses the Chrome engine.

I guess if you put TD on a machine that didn't have a browser it would be exciting just for that.

What excites me about TD & Bob is what they ADD functionally. TD Backstage is not much explored but exciting. Bob's Automation is special. The fact they both need one form of Browser of another seems secondary?

Not that I have answers. It seems molto difficile to "typify" TW in a way that could form a "selling point."

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Lost Admin wrote:

Filling in a few more blanks ...

Good stuff. Small comment ...
 

NoteSelf

Encryption : no

file-or-folder : neither

format : json

Portable : no (I'm open to being corrected but I didn't find a portableapps option)

Storage: In-browser database AND (optional) synced external database (either local or in cloud).

Portable: YES, in the sense that you can run it from any browser on any device. Its not dependent on location (paths). NO, in the sense its not a Portable app per se. I think the right answer is likely: "N/A".

Variants: It also comes in a Android App form (Beta). 

[Mark S.]

On Monday, May 28, 2018 at 11:01:47 AM UTC-7, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:

Portable : no (I'm open to being corrected but I didn't find a portableapps option)

Portable: YES, in the sense that you can run it from any browser on any device. Its not dependent on location (paths). NO, in the sense its not a Portable app per se. I think the right answer is likely: "N/A".

It's not portable in the sense that Mat's defined it here nor in the sense that someone's created an actual "setup" to do that. If you start moving into hypotheticals, rather than actuals,  the list would be endless.

-- Mark

[Mark S.]

One big difference is, that with a server you could browse from another browser on the same network (even if it is inadvisable in some cases).

You might consider the given categories to be arbitrary, but that's probably essential in order to assert some order on the phalanx of options.

-- Mark

[@TiddlyTweeter]

I agree. I think its "N/A" on "Portability".

However, with deference to Mat, still the point remains that NoteSelf is an interesting option for users who want a solution that works over many different types of devices from one source (a synched cloud based database).

[Lost Admin]

The strength I find in NoteSelf is that on large TiddlyWiki files it loads and saves a lot faster (as only changes and tiddlers actually being displayed are synced to the server).

The biggest weakness I see is the set-up. It probably took me about 16 hours of effort (over about 3 weeks) to do my first functional setup of CouchDB. But, I was doing that by digging through the CouchDB documentation and various tutorials on how to setup CouchDB (there wasn't anything specific for NoteSelf at the time (I'm fixing that). My most recent set-up took under an hour.

 

[Lost Admin]

On Monday, May 28, 2018 at 2:28:37 PM UTC-4, Lost Admin wrote:

The biggest weakness I see is the set-up. It probably took me about 16 hours of effort (over about 3 weeks) to do my first functional setup of CouchDB. But, I was doing that by digging through the CouchDB documentation and various tutorials on how to setup CouchDB (there wasn't anything specific for NoteSelf at the time; I'm fixing that). My most recent set-up took under an hour.

[Jed Carty]

I think that trying to define these as exclusive categories is a problem because almost none of the options fit into just one. Almost all of the servers can save wikis but because of the scary name people may avoid something because it says it is a server instead of a saver when it is both.

One problem with the portability part is that the list is referring to if the installation is portable, not if the usable part is portable. I am not tied to any specific device to use TiddlySpot but it isn't portable in the sense used by the table.

[Lost Admin]

I'm with Jed on the portability part. Perhaps "works offline" instead? Even that is somewhat dependent on the details (I run a webdav server on my laptop, so it works fine when I'm offline).

There are also issue with "dependencies" as the list I provided is a very small sub-set of WebDAV server options that I believe should work fine for TiddlyWiki. At the same time, taking away the dependencies column is probably a bad idea because for many that would be a deciding factor.

Mat has really taken on a hard project.

[Mark S.]

It's not a question of whether NS is useful or not or should be cherished and loved by all.

It's a question of whether anyone has created an instance or instructions (i.e. "setup") to allow it to be used as a portable application. The answer to that is "no". Hypothetically someone might, but until someone does it's not portable.

-- Mark

[Mat]

@TiddlyTweeter wrote:

[TiddlyDesktop] both "single files" and "folders." In "folder mode" its running an internal server. But do we need to know that? What does it add knowing that in case of TD?

But that would be the point to not classify it as a "Server" but only as a "Manager". 

 

[...] do I really need to know Bob is a server? Not that I shouldn't, but what does that knowledge add to practical function? My interest in Bob is what it does, not how its constituted. [...]

So, what reusable labels would you put on the things Bob does? Like what you allude to, I'm interested in finding labels that bring value to users. They should be able to say "I want X. Which ones have that?"

<:-)

[Mat]

Lost Admin - thank you for your information! Some questions:

WebDAV

... 

OS : Any (Apache) or windows (IIS)

What does this mean - what's the difference? 

I'm limiting the SetUp matrix to include set-ups custom made for TW - OR - instructions(!) on how to adapt some other "system" to TW. When it comes to WebDAV, I see @PMario has kindly made instructions for IIS. From that tiddler I don't understand if there are other options for someone who is not very tech savvy. is there?

 

Portable : No (or maybe with Apache portableapps)

To qualify as portable it should exist as a self-contained solution by itself.

 

(Should I change the category "portable" to instead be "self-contained"?)

PHP (store.php)

I've renamed the set-up to now be as you phrase it here, yes? 

Dependencies : Web server & PHP (confirmed on Apache 2.4 with php 5.6)

I have classed "PHP", or "PHP (store.php), as a server... but "a server" is rather the requirement for this (right?).

 

NoteSelf

format : json

Hm, that woudl be the "code-format", for tiddlers right, not NoteSelf per se? By "format" I tried to find a label for: 

How is the set-up solution manifested?
What format is this piece of software in? This
might affect how complicated it is to install/set it up.
Option values, predefined

• html-file
• .tid-files
• TW-plugin
• Browsr_add-on
• Browser-in-itself
• App

I would guess NoteSelf is an "App" in this sense, i.e a separate software.

Would you say my lable "format" is poorly chosen? Any better suggestion? 

Looking at my list above, I'm wondering if ".tid-files" really is relevant? 

...and maybe I should include json, i.e use file-format of tiddlers as a criteria? This may be important if one wants some kind of API integration, right?

 <:-)

[Mat]

@TiddlyTweeter wrote:

 

NoteSelf

 Storage: In-browser database AND (optional) synced external database (either local or in cloud). 

For storage, I previously added "Server-location In-browser", is that fair?

 

Portable: YES, in the sense that you can run it from any browser on any device. Its not dependent on location (paths). NO, in the sense its not a Portable app per se. I think the right answer is likely: "N/A".

So... why not Yes then?

 

Variants: It also comes in a Android App form (Beta). 

Does this have the same criteria as the main NoteSelf? (Other than OS, presumably) 

<:-)

[Mat]

Lost Admin wrote:

 

The biggest weakness I see is the set-up. It probably took me about 16 hours of effort (over about 3 weeks) to do my first functional setup of CouchDB. But, I was doing that by digging through the CouchDB documentation and various tutorials on how to setup CouchDB (there wasn't anything specific for NoteSelf at the time (I'm fixing that). My most recent set-up took under an hour.

 Instructions are as critical as the software side and I hope I can link to instructions from the SetUp site. Please inform me when you've "fixed" it ;-)

<:-) 

[Mark S.]

Hi Mat,

On Monday, May 28, 2018 at 12:40:10 PM UTC-7, Mat wrote:

For storage, I previously added "Server-location In-browser", is that fair?

 

Portable: YES, in the sense that you can run it from any browser on any device. Its not dependent on location (paths). NO, in the sense its not a Portable app per se. I think the right answer is likely: "N/A".

So... why not Yes then?

IMO ...

 It's not portable in the sense you originally defined. ANY server based solution would be portable in the first sense that TT uses. I would mark it "no".

-- Mark

[Mat]

Jed Carty wrote:

I think that trying to define these as exclusive categories is a problem because almost none of the options fit into just one. Almost all of the servers can save wikis but because of the scary name people may avoid something because it says it is a server instead of a saver when it is both.

The key question is what brings light to the user. I hope the categories will answer his question "I want something that can X. I'll see what set-ups fulfill this!" and perhaps also "I know very little about what I want so I need to know what I should consider when setting up a TW system" 

One problem with the portability part is that the list is referring to if the installation is portable, not if the usable part is portable. I am not tied to any specific device to use TiddlySpot but it isn't portable in the sense used by the table.

Yeah. Maybe "self-contained" is a better angle? Or perhaps that interferes with "dependencies"? Maybe the criteria should be "USB-stick'able"? or, "e-mail'able"? IMO it would be fair to put "Yes" for a service like TiddlySpot on this because you can still use it without fuzz from e.g a USB-stick.

<:-)

[Lost Admin]

On Monday, May 28, 2018 at 3:25:43 PM UTC-4, Mat wrote:

Lost Admin - thank you for your information! Some questions:

WebDAV

... 

OS : Any (Apache) or windows (IIS)

What does this mean - what's the difference? 

I'm limiting the SetUp matrix to include set-ups custom made for TW - OR - instructions(!) on how to adapt some other "system" to TW. When it comes to WebDAV, I see @PMario has kindly made instructions for IIS. From that tiddler I don't understand if there are other options for someone who is not very tech savvy. is there?

The Apache HTTPD server can be installed on pretty much any OS (it is available on most UNIX and UNIX like OSes, including Linux) but also available for OSX (Apple) and Windows. I'm working on instructions for setting it up on FreeBSD (UNIX-like), Debian Linux, and Windows. I already made basic setup instructions on this forum (now buried and probably lost).

@PMario made his instructions, which I followed to set-up IIS. So really you can run a webdav server on pretty much any OS with the Apache HTTPD server and on windows specifically you can also run webdav with IIS.

To make this even more complicated, there is an entire webdav server written in PHP (called sabre/dav). I haven't tested this but it is pretty popular. PHP runs on pretty much any OS, so it should work pretty much any OS. PHP is an interpreted language (like Python or Perl) and needs server software that supports it. Since Apache (and Nginx, and IIS) support PHP, you can pretty much run Sabre/dav on anything.

If you are only going with "that we have instructions for", you still have a bit of a dilema as there is absolutely nothing special about the setup of WebDAV for Tiddlywiki (you just need a properly set-up WebDAV server). So instructions (not unique to TiddlyWiki) are out there. But if you want specific to TiddlyWiki anyway, then IIS for now (and Apache if you can find my old instructions or wait until I finish the new ones with better screenshots).

Web servers are complicated. There will probably never be instructions for the "not very tech savvy". But there will (hopefully) be step-by-step instructions for the brave and soon-to-be-tech-savvy.

 

 

Portable : No (or maybe with Apache portableapps)

To qualify as portable it should exist as a self-contained solution by itself.

 

(Should I change the category "portable" to instead be "self-contained"?)

Honestly, I think this is always going to be a debatable. The intent you have is specific and simple terms are going to have broader meaning to different people. 

 

PHP (store.php)

I've renamed the set-up to now be as you phrase it here, yes? 

Dependencies : Web server & PHP (confirmed on Apache 2.4 with php 5.6)

I have classed "PHP", or "PHP (store.php), as a server... but "a server" is rather the requirement for this (right?).

Yes. but since without the "server"; store.php doesn't actually do anything. The solution is server-focused.

 

NoteSelf

format : json

Hm, that woudl be the "code-format", for tiddlers right, not NoteSelf per se? By "format" I tried to find a label for: 

How is the set-up solution manifested?
What format is this piece of software in? This
might affect how complicated it is to install/set it up.
Option values, predefined

• html-file
• .tid-files
• TW-plugin
• Browsr_add-on
• Browser-in-itself
• App

I would guess NoteSelf is an "App" in this sense, i.e a separate software.

Would you say my lable "format" is poorly chosen? Any better suggestion? 

Looking at my list above, I'm wondering if ".tid-files" really is relevant? 

As I understand your intent better, I would say App is probably the best fit. In fact, in a lot of ways NoteSelf is very much a modern web app written in javascript that talks directly to a back-end database.

 

...and maybe I should include json, i.e use file-format of tiddlers as a criteria? This may be important if one wants some kind of API integration, right?

I'm not 100% sure how this should go. Here are some technical details. I don't know how to turn this into a couple of words and remain meaningful.

NoteSelf is a touch more complicated than TiddlyWiki in in it's most basic form and yet is also (at it's core) only plug-ins to TiddlyWiki. So ... format, the log explanation:

NoteSelf, the very first time you load it, is an HTML file. It is TiddlyWiki with some plugins.

One of those plugins takes each Tiddler and converts it to JSON (an in-memory data structure) and stores it in browser storage. The format of the browser storage varries depending on the browser used but is basically still JSON. This is PouchDB.

So, in the above sense you now have a multi-file stand-alone tiddlywiki. One file is HTML, the other is in whatever format your browser uses for local storage. Firefox, for example, uses sqlite files as the on-disk format (but each tiddler is saved as json within sqlite records).

Now, things get really confusing. We add in CouchDB. The plug-ins that make NoteSelf include support to sync what is in browser storage to a database server (specifically one running CouchDB). Internally CouchDB uses  the JSON data structure and so when it saves, it is also JSON. Each tiddler is a single JSON structure inside a larger JSON structure.

So, your multi-file wiki consists of one HTML file and one or more JSON data structures stored in files managed by two other programs (your browser and the CouchDB server). However, the HTML file is pretty much static. Your changes always store to PouchDB and then sync to CouchDB.

Perhaps in the spirit of "keep it simple", the "format" should be N/A or proprietary as only technically savvy people will be able to dig the data out of the raw on-disk files of CouchDB or the web browser.

I may have been getting to specific for you. I didn't know you have a small pre-defined set.

 

 <:-)

[Mat]

Lost Admin wrote:

I'm with Jed on the portability part. Perhaps "works offline" instead? Even that is somewhat dependent on the details (I run a webdav server on my laptop, so it works fine when I'm offline).

Already got "works offline" as a criteria. 

There are also issue with "dependencies" as the list I provided is a very small sub-set of WebDAV server options that I believe should work fine for TiddlyWiki. At the same time, taking away the dependencies column is probably a bad idea because for many that would be a deciding factor.

Please note that "the WebDAV server options" are probably limitless, just like most servers. I'm therefore limiting the SetUp site to only show things that are specfically designed for TW - OR with instructions that some kind tiddlywikian has detailed so that one can design a system that makes TW work properly.

 

Mat has really taken on a hard project.

In my view, the question of how to set-up a TW system belongs to everyone so I've merely brought it up on the table for us to mould. As we're doing right now :-)

<:-)

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mat wrote:

So, what reusable labels would you put on the things Bob does? Like what you allude to, I'm interested in finding labels that bring value to users. They should be able to say "I want X. Which ones have that?"

Bob is radical. It will run wikis. It will save wikis. So far, so normal. But its greatest unique feature is AUTOMATION.

With Bob you can run "scripts" that interface with the OS. What this means is you can control virtually anything on the computer from Bob. For instance, I use Bob already to (1) save TW tid sets to single TW; (2) launch Windows programs; (3) run external programs that gather data for Bob Wikis. Its been easy.

Bob is a good example of "What is the Added Value of this?" Bob's is "Automation", without doubt. Its unique.

TiddlyDesktop's Added Value is: Smart visuality, great menus, sense its a "FULL PROGRAM". Excellent for users who need something that just runs like a normal desktop program.

These Added Value aspects I suspect are quite important on choice.

Best wishes
Josiah

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mat wrote:

@TiddlyTweeter wrote:

 

NoteSelf

 Storage: In-browser database AND (optional) synced external database (either local or in cloud). 

For storage, I previously added "Server-location In-browser", is that fair?

Not exactly. But close enough. Basically the wiki is stored in the browser in a database. "Browser database" and "Synced external database" are a bit closer though.
 

Portable: YES, in the sense that you can run it from any browser on any device. Its not dependent on location (paths). NO, in the sense its not a Portable app per se. I think the right answer is likely: "N/A".

So... why not Yes then?

Depends if by "portable" you mean an application, an actual program. I eventually wrote N/A because I think its actually at a different level than a "program". Its not so much about portable APPLICATIONS as CLOUD COMPUTING.

Its a tricky one.

Josiah

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mat wrote:

... IMO it would be fair to put "Yes" for a service like TiddlySpot on this because you can still use it without fuzz from e.g a USB-stick.

That is not portability. That is cloudability.

A portable application is one (a program, not a site) that (1) makes no registry entries and creates no files outside its own directories; (2) uses relative addressing such that you can move its install folder between disks and it will work exactly the same.

Bob is portable. TiddlyDesktop isn't.

Josiah

[TonyM]

Mat,

There has being "a lot of water under the bridge", in this conversation and it is now a little hard to identify the current state of play. I always intended to contribute but have being very busy, Can I suggest a few points, some random some systematic and you can see how they fit into the the final result?

TiddlyDesktop Claims it can serve on the network although I have not seen the settings or instructions yet. It servers single Files, Node JS and Provides a browser (NW?). and has the index wiki.

If in fact all these advertised features are available in TidlyDesktop and it helps us identify the components we need to address in your wonderful table.

I have raised this previously but all tiddlywikis use a browser, be it one of the common ones, or one built into the solution like TiddlyDesktop, "AndTWiki"

Here is a brain dump of what I know about all the different alternatives, and the rules arising, I have studied.

1. All tiddlywikis use a browser, be it one of the common ones, or one built into the solution
   
2. In a browser there are two ways to access a tiddlywiki be it an http:// address or a file:// address
   
3. If they(wikis) are accessed at a http address there is a server somewhere, servers "replace the need for a file saver", but you can still save as a file.
   
4. If they(wikis) are accessed at a file:// address there needs to be a "file saver in the browser" or a tiddler Database but only if the default download mechanism is undesirable (it often is)
   
5. TiddlyDesktop comes with its own browser AND can serve files AND provide a filesaver to TiddlyWikis opened in it.
   
6. All ? Servers can serve on the local only address, or on the network using the physical servers IP Address (which allows other devices on the network to access the server, and any wikis it hosts)
   
7. Some servers can serve folder based wikis and others can also serve single file wikis
   
8. All ? TiddlyWikis can save file or folder wikis as file based wikis
   
9. All ? TiddlyWikis (including served folder base wikis) can Import tiddlers from file wikis or intermediate bundles of tiddlers (eg JSON files)
   
10. Most servers are based on NodeJS installed or packaged in the server implimentation
    
11. NoteSelf is not a Server, but it can use CouchDB and Pouch DB to Server tiddlers, a wonderful feature is the CounchDB (I think of as being in my loungeroom) is inside your browser session but only serves tiddlers to that browser session so it emulates a file saver (but it does not update the original tiddlywikifile or HTML hosted "file")
    
12. NoteSelf allows you to "Host" tiddlywikis as plane HTML files anywhere with updates to that html file saved in CounchDB or PouchDB, Since PouchDB is outside the browser you can access the tiddlers it serves by logging in with a NoteSelf File tiddlywiki, or HTML hosted tiddlywiki. In this case we have two tiddler based database servers on local (browser session only) "CoundDB and a Remote tiddler based database server (pouchDB)
    

There seems to be a clear distinction between File based wikis and Folder Based Wikis (typical hosted in NodeJS but I expect an increase in Databases of Tiddlers "database hosted wikis" as with PouchDB. I would like to see one based on MySQL as an example.

File based wikis 
Folder Based Wikis
Database hosted wikis

- Database Inbrowser

- External database (Local or remote)

Regardless of the above how do you access your database?

Within a provided Browser (addressing handled internally)

At a File:// Address

At an http:// address

  Local 

  Remote

For Example (the difficult cases?)

Bob is a server, has an "index wiki", Serves Folder based wikis, not file based wikis, does not have its own Browser, removes the need for a saver, can send Operating Systems Messages to the Physical server it is installed on, can be accesses localy and remotely, and can cope with multiple access to the same wiki.

TiddlyServer is a server, has an "index (but no index Wiki)", Serves File and Folder based wikis, does not have its own Browser, removes the need for a saver, , can be accesses localy and remotely, however multiple access to the same wiki could result in "contention".

A final note:

File based wikis can typically be opened in any browser, and be saved with any browser (this is often forgotten), However FileBased wikis require a file saver to bypass the default Download method, usually one for the given browser in which it is running, Since browser security has increased there are limitations to how file savers can operate (eg; Under the browsers download folder, though not always true)

Depending on the server, File and Folder based wikis that are served can be accessed via a local or remote IP address and since the server handles the save mechanism no file save is required meaning "Served" wikis can be accessed with virtually any browser (although results may differ).

The above statements are 100% correct to my understanding, Please consider this in deciding on columns, and feel free to extract some text as explainers (tooltips perhaps), if someone had told me these things when I first started with TiddlyWiki I would have saved a lot of time.

Regards

Tony

[Mark S.]

Hi Mat,

NoteSelf fits into two categories. One as a (remote) Service and one as a (local browser) Saver. The complication of it as a local browser saver is that it needs to connect to the github starting page at least once.  So it's not 100% offline. That is, if someone needed to set it up inside a sealed room cut off from the rest of the world they would currently be out of luck.

As a setup, it is not a Server because no one has demonstrated how to set up Pouch as a server, and then how to configure TW to use it. This is apparently not a trivial task. If the idea is to direct people towards real, implemented solutions, then SN as a Server is not there yet

-- Mark

[TonyM]

Mark,

I understand the desire not to document the apparently unachivable, setting up a PouchDB but people have done this (although Difficult) never the less my definition stands. CouchDB is a Tiddler (not wiki) Server, Even PouchDB needs to be though of as a Local Tiddler Server because it can explain how the underlying tiddlywki may not have new content in it that is held in the CouchDB.

Please note I have used my words very carefully.

If as you say The complication of it as a local browser saver is that it needs to connect to the github starting page at least once then the internet is a setup dependency nothing more (Unless it is needed every time), all it requires is a special note. In part because we have not yet defined if internet access is required or it is operated "offline".  A column indicating "can be used offline" could have the values Yes, No, Conditional, and with local/remote server access or something like that.

Perhaps an ease of setup column should be used to show pouchDB is difficult, although those with the IBM database version can currently do it with less complexity than setting up their own.

The thing is we must be careful not to paint a false picture or depart from a careful use of words because even novices may detect inconsistencies and find it hard to understand or believe the list. This is the reason I have suggested this treatment of NoteSelf because 

1. It varies form other solutions
   
2. Includes unfamiliar technology to most,
   
3. We can expect more cases of databases that serve tiddlers.
   In which case more items will have similar specifications.

Best Wishes

Tony

[Lost Admin]

On Monday, May 28, 2018 at 9:13:59 PM UTC-4, Mark S. wrote:

Hi Mat,

NoteSelf fits into two categories. One as a (remote) Service and one as a (local browser) Saver. The complication of it as a local browser saver is that it needs to connect to the github starting page at least once.  So it's not 100% offline. That is, if someone needed to set it up inside a sealed room cut off from the rest of the world they would currently be out of luck. 

 

The underlined part of your statement is not entirely accurate. At least it is as accrate as saying that one needs to connect to tiddlywiki.com/empty.html at least once to use TiddlyWiki.

Although you can use the github as your starting point, you can also download the NoteSelf variation of empty.html and use that from any static web server. As an example, switch to private browsing or incognito mode and go to https://notes.suntrap.ca/noteself.html. Or, use the download button at the bottom of https://noteself.github.io/ and save your own copy of an empty noteself.html and use it locally.

P.S. sorry for getting so technical Mat. But the conversation has gotten way deep.

Oh, and those instructions are coming. I've got a day job so they aren't coming fast.

[@TiddlyTweeter]

TonyM wrote:

Perhaps an ease of setup column should be used to show pouchDB is difficult, although those with the IBM database version can currently do it with less complexity than setting up their own.

NO. Merely, where available, specialist help support could be linked to. For NoteSelf it is: https://forum.noteself.org

[@TiddlyTweeter]

TonyM wrote:
We can expect more cases of databases that serve tiddlers.
In which case more items will have similar specifications.

Right. @Maarfapad has been experimenting towards it. Currently in private beta.

[@TiddlyTweeter]

First Encounter is NOT relevant anyway. It gets ridiculous mixing up how you download/start with a running TW. Its the basic nature of normal function that is the focus ... not how you got there.

Just IMO

On Tuesday, 29 May 2018 14:42:22 UTC+2, Lost Admin wrote:

On Monday, May 28, 2018 at 9:13:59 PM UTC-4, Mark S. wrote:

... The complication of it as a local browser saver is that it needs to connect to the github starting page at least once...

 

The underlined part of your statement is not entirely accurate.

 

P.S. sorry for getting so technical Mat. But the conversation has gotten way deep.

[Mark S.]

You're right. It's been awhile since I tried to use NoteSelf.

It does seem like it's in two categories, working either as a saver or as service. I would not say it qualifies as a "server" until there is a complete setup explaining how to (1) set up your own couch server and (2) connect a NoteSelf instance to that server.

Thanks,
Mark

[Mat]

OK, SetUp has been updated to hopefully reflect all the new info... even if I have quite possibly missed something or misunderstood it... in which case I ask you to point this out. As I hope has already been noted, you can click the SetUp names to get some info about the SetUp. I've added some info there that doesn't fit in the table.

There are too many posts to reply to individually but I hope it is clear that I really appreciate them all and read them carefully. Thank you guys.

Of course, there is still a lot of missing info. Please keep it coming.

Also note I've changed the initial "explanations" somewhat. Whaddyasay:

savers - Saving mechanisms enabling things that the native TW saving can't do
servers - Programs that serve tiddlers and control who/what has access to them
services - Services run by someone else to store, serve (and ultimately control) your tiddlers
managers - Tools to manage multiple TiddlyWikis

And, still, any other suggestions for improvements are welcome.

I think good way to identify what's important are questions/scenarios like:

• "OK, I'm going to set up a TW system for my friend/co-worker/mum/... what will he/she consider important? (if he/she knew how to formulate it)"
  
• What does a tech-savvy hacker look at?
  
• What would "the average facebook user" consider important?
  
• How about the paranoid guy?  
  
• "I just want it to be simple!"
  
• What does it take for this to be used in a corporate environment of 10 people? 100 people?
  

...

<:-)

[@TiddlyTweeter]

TiddlyDesktop:

auto-backup: Yes
browser: Internal Chrome Engine (NOT a full browser)
data-storage-location: Local
dependencies: None
encryption: Native-TW-encr. on TW files
file-or-folder: Both
format: html & .tid
mobile-first: no
multi-user: no
os: win mac linux
portable: no
versioning: no
works-offline: yes

[@TiddlyTweeter]

I want add ... :-)

unique-features: Lovely menus. Runs like a normal program.

[@TiddlyTweeter]

AndTidWiki ...

By: mgs...@gmail.com (not sure it works)

Source: AndTidWiki ... free (with ads) ... https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=de.mgsimon.android.andtidwiki&hl=en

Source: AndTidWiki+ ... paid ... https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=de.mgsimon.android.andtidwikiplus

Info: ????

[Mark S.]

TiddlyWiki in the Sky and TiddlyDrive seem to most closely correspond to "services". They save via someone else's service (actually use 2 services) and there is no equivalent server that you can set up to do the same thing.

"File Backups" is definitely in the "saver" category. It doesn't serve up anything, and provides services the native file saver doesn't do (like auto-save, and backups).

data-storage: local-file
dependencies: no (assuming you don't think of a plugin as a dependency)
encryption: native
file-or-folder: file
format: TW-plugin
mobile-first: no
multi-user: no

The popup messages from the header row on the right side are chopped off by the screen edge on my FF browser. 

Thanks,
Mark

Thanks!
Mark

[Mat]

@TiddlyTweeter wrote:

TiddlyDesktop:

[..criteria...] 

Added.

browser: Internal Chrome Engine (NOT a full browser)

Hm, the idea with the criteria is to let users set requirements so from a user standpoint I am writing "N/A" for the browser criteria - but I added a note in the SetUp text.

Thank you!

<:-)

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mat "versioning" is slightly ambiguous in application.

Usually it refers to a system that has an  "inbuilt method of recovery" ... i.e. the interface itself lets you go back. NoteSelf (or, rather, CouchDB) has that. But TiddlyDesktop and other saving mechanisms have Redundant Backup, which is similar, but no interface for.

In some ways "Redundant Backup" might be more accurate to what goes on in TW. For instance TiddyDesktop doesn't do version control, but it does do redundant backup.

[Mat]

@TiddlyTweeter wrote:

I want add ... :-)

unique-features: Lovely menus. Runs like a normal program. 

I added this too. It gave me the idea to have user comments... but that would really be more work to collect than I can do... so I came to think of the usual problem with federated wikis and to somehow collects user comments... and I came to wonder what steps will be needed from here, considering all the SetUp's :-)

<:-) 

[Mat]

@TiddlyTweeter wrote:

AndTidWiki ...

added info. Thank you.

<:-)

[Mark S.]

The way it's worded, it's looking for per-tiddler versioning. Which is pretty much only Noteself. There is another category for backups.

-- Mark

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Per-tiddler versioning. Got it.

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Thank god for big screens :-)

[Lost Admin]

@Mat

Based on how I'm seeing the other options filled in, Webdav should be "Any-standard-OS". Apparently Apache HTTPD is even available on Android (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.esminis.server.apache&hl=en_US)!

I'll let you know when I get the instructions for FreeBSD/Windows/Linux done. :-)

[Mat]

Mark S. wrote:

TiddlyWiki in the Sky and TiddlyDrive seem to most closely correspond to "services". They save via someone else's service (actually use 2 services) and there is no equivalent server that you can set up to do the same thing.

Interesting. Added.

 

"File Backups" is definitely in the "saver" category. It doesn't serve up anything, and provides services the native file saver doesn't do (like auto-save, and backups).  

(no, IMO dependencies is when some other software or service is required)

 

The popup messages from the header row on the right side are chopped off by the screen edge on my FF browser.  

yeah, thanks. I'll fiddle with this in a few days.

Again, thank you for valuable input.

<:-)

[@TiddlyTweeter]

I just notice for TiddlyDesktop under multi-user you entered "N/A". I think its actually "No".

[Mat]

@TiddlyTweeter wrote:

I just notice for TiddlyDesktop under multi-user you entered "N/A". I think its actually "No".

corrected, thanx

<:-)

[@TiddlyTweeter]

On Bob on Node.js you say format is "TW-plugin". That does not make sense to me. I'm unclear what you mean.

On Bob single exec. under file-or-folder you say "Switchable." Natively they are only .tid files (folder). Do you mean that because you CAN generate a single file wiki its "switchable"? Unclear.

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Regarding TiddlySpot

file-or-folder: "file" 
mobile-first: N/A
multi-user: no
os: any
portable: N/A (its an online service)
versioning: no
works-offline: no

[Jed Carty]

Bob on node is a normal plug in the same as any other node plug in when you install it, so I think listing it like that makes sense.

[FrD]

Hi,

The android app "Serveur WebDAV" works well on saving TWs both locally and on dropbox (on my Samsung A5 phone).

Regards

FrD

[Mat]

@TiddlyTweeter wrote:

On Bob on Node.js you say format is "TW-plugin". That does not make sense to me. I'm unclear what you mean.

On Bob single exec. under file-or-folder you say "Switchable." Natively they are only .tid files (folder). Do you mean that because you CAN generate a single file wiki its "switchable"? Unclear.

I will investigate these properly to give it the maximum "end user perspective" in some time but currently the info comes straight from the horses mouth ;-)

<:-)

[Mat]

@TiddlyTweeter wrote:

Regarding TiddlySpot
...

added

<:-) 

[Mat]

FrD wrote:

The android app "Serveur WebDAV" works well on saving TWs both locally and on dropbox (on my Samsung A5 phone).

Thanks for informing!  I don't find anything ni the google play store (or whatever it is called) that is titled "serveur WebDAV" nor "server WebDav". A few seem to be named the other way (and withou the "u"), i.e "WebDAV Server". Could you provide a link to the one you're using?

Thanks!

<:-)

[FrD]

Hi,

Here it is :

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.theolivetree.webdavserver

Regards

FrD

[Mark S.]

Looking over WebDav Server "read more", I don't see anything in it about authentication.

In fact, AFAIK, none of the server approaches (except maybe WebDav via ISS) have any authorization restrictions.

Jed has a warning at the top of his page, which is good.

But maybe there should be a comments column that warns potential users about the coffee-shop wifi danger?

-- Mark

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mat

Like Neo, you are developing a near total Setup Matrix ...

Then ... I wondered why is there no column for "TWClassic??" ... Some of the options DO support TW Classic.

Could that be added? The overhead seems small. The user-info. benefit significant.

Just thoughts
Josiah

[Yakov]

Hi Josiah,

I have to note that marking which of those support TWc is ambivalent if other tools, that are for TWc only, are not listed, but if it's ok to add those than I'd vote for it. Still, this can be confusing: like if "encryption" is marked green it won't mean it is supported for TWc without a separate plugin; and with a separate plugin, the support may be different from that for TW5.

Perhaps TiddlyChrome should be mentioned in the same section as TiddlyFox ("Potential candidates").

This is a single-editor project, isn't it? Or some collaborators can be added?

Best regards,
Yakov.

воскресенье, 3 июня 2018 г., 16:09:14 UTC+3 пользователь @TiddlyTweeter написал:

[Mark S.]

I was wondering that too. It would have to be a "Saves TWC" column just to indicate the "Save" functionality, but not necessarily the other functionality.

-- Mark

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Yakov (Mat & Mark S.)

I see your points Yakov & Mark. It potentially introduces complications including support for TWc.

Mat's work on this all goes through him, but he listens (mainly :).

My point was simple. This is the most comprehensive survey of How To Run TiddlyWiki ever done. I suddenly found it odd it didn't include Classic in some way. Not just for "saving" but for using, for instance, TiddlyDesktop.

Perhaps it can have its own matrix in TWc world? But I am aware you are one person and Classic has a smaller number of people with time to do stuff like that.

Just thoughts
Josiah

[Mat]

Guys, just quickly; I have been, and will continue to be, busy for a few more days so difficult to work on this at the moment.

But, regarding TWC on SetUp - sure, why not, if I can get some help if it is much work with it. What I mean is; 

If it is merely a matter of adding TWC as one of the criteria (i.e the top row) then it'd be easy-peasy. That would mean you click a name like "TWC-compatible" and see which SetUps that fulfill this... and from those identified SetUp-rows see what other criteria the respective SetUp features.

The more ambitious solution would be to introduce TWC as a qualifying filter before the "Saver, Server, Service, Manager" and logically at that level, i.e so that every listed SetUp will have to fulfill TWC and whatever of "Saver, Server etc" that is ticked. This is not difficult to do but a little iffy. However, what I would need help with then is to have others bring in potential SetUps that are TWC specific and, again, the data for them.

Another thought:

I think the site would bring more value if it could add more info about individual setups. Obviously, not everything fits in the matrix and even if I've added some comments in the respective SetUp-tiddlers, there is often good stuff found in discussions on the boards. So, it would be useful to somehow collect data such that can be added. I'm considering accepting links to relevant discussions - or if someone other than me curates/refines info, then this could be added to the individual setups. (Oh, a project like this would be sooo spot-on for TWederation!!!)

Again, please note I can't engage much in this for a few days.

<:-)

[TonyM]

Mat,

Whilst it would be nice to do this with TWC its options are very limited compared to TW5 (although there are still many) perhaps instead flag TWC in so far as does the "method" also support TWC as does TiddlyDesktop but redirect others to the TWC Discussion thread and information on Migration. I have just contributed to a thread on this here https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/tiddlywiki/L3p321qp7EU

The truth is the future is with TW5 and although existing TWC users may benefit from this information, I think it unwise to promote TWC as an answer to someone entering the TW universe, for its reduced maintenance, reduced futures and diminishing user base.

Further, I love your work here, I wanted to do something similar but are glad you have "taken this by the reigns", I plan to provide a community resource and Expect this reference work will be key.

Thanks

Tony

[Yakov]

While information on migration would be useful too, I don't think it's unwise to show the TWc ecosystem (strictly speaking, its maintainance grew this year considerably with one new version and MainTiddlyServer already released, and I have plans for more) and diminishing user-base may be a self-fulfilling forecast in this context (actually, those who join https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/tiddlywikiclassic sometimes say that "wow, I was not aware of this group and new released stuff" although the link is pinned on top in TiddlyWiki group). TWc still has some advantages (like smaller size, simpler plugin development process, no mobile-first-desktop-never desease and others) so it may have its own niche.

I can certainly help with gathering information (or mostly sharing already gathered info) and I think that the

introduce TWC as a qualifying filter before the "Saver, Server, Service, Manager"

approach would be much nicer (otherwise things link MainTiddlyServer won't get a spot in the matrix at all). But it's up to you of'course.

Best regards,
Yakov.

среда, 6 июня 2018 г., 4:28:10 UTC+3 пользователь TonyM написал:

[TonyM]

Yakov,

We should not abandon TWC, and it should be mentioned in the TW5 table to indicate the cross compatibility of hosting solutions. However I believe TWC deserves its own matrix, and unwise to suggest to newbys to take that path, we have job helping new people learn TW5 apart from TWC. Though TWC should be supported by the community.

Regards

Tony 

[Yakov]

I don't understand why it's unwise to show both versions to new users. If they feel that TW5 is better, they'll use it, if TWc fits their needs, they can choose it instead. Moreover, I'm planning to attract new users to TWc once it's good enough (I've made a local meetup to present TWc and discussed up-to-date demands with a couple of users and can see some key issues now). What I see wise is to make a dedicated updatable comparison to show differences, advantages and disadvantages of both TW versions to help users make a concious choice, isn't it? (including limitations of both TWc and TW5 which are not frequently discussed, like SEO problems, load time, performance issues etc) I can see no reason to hide the legacy (aside additional efforts required for creating the full matrix).

Best regards,
Yakov.

четверг, 7 июня 2018 г., 1:53:30 UTC+3 пользователь TonyM написал:

[TonyM]

Yakov,

It is fine of course for us to disagree, personally I have been deeply involved in both versions, I think both have their idiosyncrasies and both can take some time to understand deeply. Its it not that I am against TWC, but more I am against promoting wholesale two versions, and naturally the back version can be de-emphasised for NEW users. All I am talking about is a degree of visibility. For example I would not complicate the Setup table with the same depth of detail for TWC as combining the two will make it almost unreadable for more than 80% of viewers, yes make TWC visible, yes make TWC its own table and lets even create a comparison table. The issue is both have their own suit of editions and plugins which to a large measure, define what each is capable of, so the comparison needs to map plugin equivalence to give a true picture, it would be wrong to shoehorn all this into one table.

Regards

Tony

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mat

This is an Afterthought. It is no way an original thought of mine.

It came from reading up a lot on the various solutions for running TW, plus some on-the-turf experience of frustration when a solution turned out to have limits I was NOT warned about in advance.

Solution: It is simply this: Have a descriptive field that says what a solution specifically WON'T DO!

Not in the choice system, but visible in the full details of an option.

This came up to me as pretty important to actual usage. Especially for new users.

Let me give you two examples ...

1 -- Running under Node, accessing external files like images, pdfs, mp3 can get very complicated. It would not be a first choice IF you needed simple routine integration of such files.

2 -- Running in TiddlyDesktop. It has limits in that it is not a full browser. For instance it can't save passwords. It can't in "new window" currently print. (Though a recent plugin by BTC enables it.) For many uses these lacks won't matter. For some they really will.

Whilst great filtering criteria--like you have--gets you close to the right choice, a few additional things need commented on before a user commits to a download of an install, IMO.

This is not meant as implying YOU should do anything more. Merely I think it (the "It Won't") will turn up, sooner-or-later a salient factor in actual choices.

Hope this is clear!

Best wishes
Josiah

[David Gifford]

Hi Mat

I didn't have Backend on the toolmap, and do not have SetUp on their either. It is time to rectify that.

Could you please help me by reviewing the categories at https://dynalist.io/d/zUP-nIWu2FFoXH-oM7L7d9DM and telling me which category (or categories) it belongs in, and a one or two line description of what it does? Just reply to this post and start the first line with Hi giffmex so I can identify it quickly. Thanks!

On Saturday, May 26, 2018 at 12:35:02 PM UTC-5, Mat wrote:

So, you want your TW to...

• function well on your phone? 
  
• auto-sync with your many devices?
  
• work as a shared family wiki with to-do lists, reference matter and all?
• ...or even as a corporate system, with simultaneous editing?
• ...and automatic backups?
• be totally off-the-grid on a RasPi server?
  
• or you want tools to manage all those TWs of yours? 

Well, maybe it's possible....

The ol' TWaddler proudly presents...

SetUp

- a guide to help you navigate to the TW system you want

This was previously named "BackEnd" but SetUp is more appropriate given that it concerns TW-specific: Savers, Servers, Services and Managers

As you can see on that site, if you experiment a little and tick some check-boxes, a lot of info is missing. You may disagree or want to add or to remove either of...

• SetUps
  
• criteria (i.e the "features" listed that a user may look at to decide what suits him)
  
• options for the criteria
  
• or even the categorization into "savers, servers, services and managers"
  

Well, I need help with this information. I barely know what a server is... but I do know how to copy-paste text so if you guys provide the info, I do the foot work.

The point is to help anyone... no, I mean everyone!.. to get the most out of TW. It really concerns all of us, so please do a good deed and help out. The TiddlyGods will reward you.

<:-)