Tiddlywiki and Coronavirus: March 2020 [Continued...] Part II

[Mohammad]

This thread continues the discussion of Tiddlywiki and Coronavirus: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/IGrE-fslX84/PB-8xcFmAgAJ

This is to share information and see how we can use Tiddlywiki in this situation as a tool to help others.

The original thread got around 800 views and more than 104 posts.

--Mohammad

[Mohammad]

Google has started a COVID-19 alert.

If you have an Android phone, the Google Now app (in my phone flip the home screen to the right) shows the alert and then on tapping the alert you can get some useful information.

Also if make a search in Google in any browser, you will see the alert with Help and Information from WHO.

--Mohammad

[TiddlyTweeter]

Birthe 

Begging is not allowed in Denmark.
Now some hostels all over Denmark has made an agreement, that the homeless paper sellers can be housed there for free for now. (Free for the homeless that is, the homeless paper is paying, the hostels lowering their prices.
A lot of other things going on as well. For now the most important thing is to give them at chance to get off the streets and have a place to stay.

Right. In Northern Italy here in Gorizia most beggars (allowed) are refugees from Africa. We have many. My friendly beggar from Nigeria left the supermarket entrance some days ago saying "I can't risk it." He already has state provision. Italy is good in that way. Very few people are truly homeless.

TT

 

[Birthe C]

TT.

I do not think there are many in Denmark either. But the official statistic might not be totally correct.

Definition being, that just because you do not have a home, you are not homeless (anticipating that people loosing their homes are couch surfing with family and friends) could hide quite a number.

Not many will have the option of couch surfing with the isolation going on.

The need to have an address to get financial help and be able to document how long you have stayed in the country makes it difficult. Some gets full amount, more getting much less, and yet others absolutely nothing. If you leave your local area, you can loose the benefit.

Birthe

[Birthe C]

@Mat

Something do happen https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/en/news/danish-disinfection-robots-save-lives-fight-against-corona-virus

I have heard about your big disaster hospital in Stockholm. In Denmark we have our own disasters but try to find comfort in your proud leading role. ;-)

Why not, after all you also imported a surgeon using plastic tracheas. (Kind of unfair to mention though).

To everyone else: Scandinavians are kind of brothers and sisters, but always competing. It is absolutely friendly.

To the rest of your explanation in the other thread. I agree to most of what you are writing.

Birthe

[Mohammad]

The World Health Organization launches WHO Health Alert on WhatsApp

As the Coronavirus pandemic spreads, people all over the globe are turning to the World Health Organization for official, trusted health information and advice.

see: https://www.whatsapp.com/coronavirus/who

and https://www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/who-health-alert-brings-covid-19-facts-to-billions-via-whatsapp

--Mohammad

[Ste Wilson]

I think the problem with privatisation though is that it quickly becomes ONLY about making money and the bottom line which tends to be incomparable with social care (corner cutting, cost saving) and, often, ethics.

[TonyM]

Mat

This may be the what has happened to public health in Sweden however I don't thing you can draw the conclusions you do especialy when you look at other countries, England has a cost effective public system as does Australia which has the lowest prescription prices in the developed world because for pharmaceuticals to get on the list of subsidised medicines they are open to competition and reasonableness. In America the mostly private system is the most expensive on earth with the least access.

When a public service institution fails it needs better management, and perhaps some incentives, not the addition of parties who take money out of the system as profit. Private organisations fail as well and they are not immune from inefficentcies even with the profit motive which tends to first reduce overheads then moves onto quality reduction, unless they increase costs to the ill. As costs increase people loose access and the real costs go unmeasured, no wonder private health can look good on the balance sheet as they rent seek from government and externalise costs.

Having worked in the public service here I learned the greatest costs in the public service is public demand for accountability and political interference including changing the name and logos each election.

What you say maybe true for Sweeden but I do not think it is a rule.

Regards
Tony

[Birthe C]

@Tony

Exactly!

And an enormous amount of consultants for exorbitant fees.

Birthe

Having worked in the public service here I learned the greatest costs in the public service is public demand for accountability and political interference including changing the name and logos each election.

Regards
Tony

[A Gloom]

anyone know this language?

SANKTAJ AGENCOJ Ligoj:

INTERNACIA: ligo de WHO (Monda Organizo pri Sano)

VIA NACIO: Tajpu la nomon de via nacio, regiono (provinco / ŝtato / graflando) aŭ urbo en la teksta redakta skatolo kaj alklaku "PAGE LINK FOR ...", kiu malfermos Google-serĉon por via nacio / regiono / urbo. publika agentejo (j) de sano en nova retumilo

• GRAVA: ne necesas uzi kompaniojn ĉirkaŭ serĉaj terminoj. Se vi faros, uzu% 22 anstataŭ "

Post kiam vi trovos la publikan sanan agentejon de via nacio / redono / urbo, vi povas kopii la URL / retadreson de la retejo kaj almeti ĝin en la URL-kampo en la sekcio Legosignoj por konservi ĝin por estonta referenco en ĉi tiu app.

A demo of the translate feature of my contribution to Mohammad's wiki with the idea of his work becoming a general pandemic safery guide (there will be others in the future, SARS, bird flu, etc were wakeup calls-- Covid 19 is a sucker punch)  This tiddler draws from the reference wikis search of Ref Collective and takes advantage of Google having an OpenDirectory type result for searches for government agency-- guarantying those links will appear first in search results.  There's also a tentative translate function leveraging Google translate-- try it an be surprised.  There's still work that needs to be done (like leverage core lingo for internationalization) but its functional. (except for annotations for bookmarks-- have to add annotation creation to the bookmarks editor-- but bookmarks can be created/saved/edited/listed & searched)

Fully self contained will create its own data tiddler (for bookmarks) and temp tiddlers as its used.

[A Gloom]

To everyone else: Scandinavians are kind of brothers and sisters, but always competing. It is absolutely friendly.

To the rest of your explanation in the other thread. I agree to most of what you are writing.

Understood-- we have strong communities of Scandinavians heritage here -- kinda of familiar with the cultures-- you probably be intereest i'm a stone's throw from former New Sweden.

Nifty about the robots and they're in 40 countries now-- kudos to Denmark

[Birthe C]

@A Gloom

Now that explains a lot, you know us ;-)

I am living close to the company producing the robots.

They are sure good for that kind of job, but I am not as happy to see apps and video chat taking over the care for old people. Naming something local or closeness in health really does not do it.

Birthe

søndag den 22. marts 2020 kl. 13.35.36 UTC+1 skrev A Gloom

[A Gloom]

Birthe

 

Now that explains a lot, you know us ;-)

; ) I listen to more music from your area than my own country >> <<

 

They are sure good for that kind of job, but I am not as happy to see apps and video chat taking over the care for old people. Naming something local or closeness in health really does not do it.

The technology is meant to augment not replace-- the video chat (which I have access to through the Veteran's Administration) could actually increase my interactions with my care providers considering how long it can be to get an in person appointment (too many vets and not enough care providers).

[Mark S.]

Mi parolas Esperanton malbone!

Ĉu vi parolas Esperanton?

[HansWobbe]

@ Mohammad: @TiddlyTweeter

You might find this an interesting comparison of the global curves

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/infection-trajectory-flattening-the-covid19-curve/

[Birthe C]

I do not expect many here to read in Danish, but I really would have liked that.

A lovely story in the paper. A man with a small company has tried to get into contact with authorities. He Is known for creating analytics for cancer patients. He wanted to tell authorities that he had some machines that could do corona testing. He had mailed a lot of them one week ago and got only one answer. They had everything they needed was the answer. He tried yesterday also, after the papers wrote about the shortage. He got one answer, no need. He wrote about his offer on Facebook and everybody wrote about it. Finally a phone call. Now we will see if it is really  true. I very much hope so. Tests are needed, and the story so lovely.

Not all companies are big and well known, advertising all over and paying a lot of lobbyists.

I am crossing my fingers in hope.

Birthe

[Mohammad]

Hi Hans,

Thank you for sharing!

On Sunday, March 22, 2020 at 11:06:40 PM UTC+4:30, HansWobbe wrote:

@ Mohammad: @TiddlyTweeter

You might find this an interesting comparison of the global curves

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/infection-trajectory-flattening-the-covid19-curve/

This is really informative. 

[TonyM]

Birthe,

There are "Lone wolves" who have value to add, sometimes revolutionary. But sadly for every one of these there seems to be hundreds with, what I consider as yet unclassified personality disorders, who believe the unbelievable. The internet has helped them thrive and whilst some are intended to "rip off" people,  a large number are simply missguided and not sceptical enough of their own thinking.

Let us hope this is a contra example.

Regards

Tony

[TiddlyTweeter]

The manifestation of the virus in severe cases is like pneumonia. Many people die from breathing difficulties.

Whilst sequestered 

(1) give up smoking

(2) improve breathing capacity E.g. 

https://www.amazon.com/Breathing-Book-Vitality-Through-Essential/dp/0805042970

As far as Italy goes if you are a Smoker and a Man and Old those matter a lot. Over 70% of deaths are older men here.

In China 60% plus.

Activity in lock-down matters.

TT

 

 

[TiddlyTweeter]

News reporting is often partial

In Italy the edict reported is that ONLY pharmacies & food stores are open.

Incorrect.

Tobacconists remain open for fags & news everywhere.

In my town Pet shops remain open so you can supply your pets.

TT

[TiddlyTweeter]

Some US cities will have knock-on problems on lock-down.

For instance some cities in Texas are alcohol free. No shops sell alcohol. 

Drinkers are fine with that as they normally just travel to the next town to stock up.

If they confined to city boundaries there will be significant compounding issues.

Lock-down, in general, raises many usually hidden issues. Alcohol dependence is just one of them.

TT

[TiddlyTweeter]

The internet is straining. It took me 10 days to sort out a logon problem to my online bank. 

The help line is to Milano at the centre of issues here.

Its still down from overload most of the time.

Lock-down is a strategy. 

One based on Good idea to help health services cope. That is the main reason,  I think.

I'm wondering though ... the consequences look as extreme too beyond health.

TT

[TiddlyTweeter]

Not sure if its workable, but one idea in UK to sequester "the vulnerable most" is an interesting idea. 

They for 12 weeks. But liberty rights v. chance of infection.

The as yet inarticulate idea is that if you could then the wider society might be able to carry on without total lock-down.

TT

[TiddlyTweeter]

I'm not sure Italy is the best example to look at.

IT IS truly a nightmare here in that, despite having one of the best healthcare systems in the world, we are now drowning in problems.

A major one being that of the infected about 4,000 are now health care workers.

A LOT of that is because we have huge numbers of older people in intensive care. 

In a sense we are trapped in a "viscous cycle". Health care workers, though masked, can't keep distance.

Other countries, with younger people may fare better? Dunno?

TT

[TiddlyTweeter]

HansWobbe wrote:

 

You might find this an interesting comparison of the global curves

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/infection-trajectory-flattening-the-covid19-curve/

Right. They are useful for trying to get an overview and perspective ...

Like, https://www.visualcapitalist.com/history-of-pandemics-deadliest/

TT

[TiddlyTweeter]

How does that help anyone?

On Monday, 23 March 2020 10:42:55 UTC+1, Mohammad wrote:

SVG Icons for using in Tiddlywiki

Set of icons including high quality svg called stay at home

can be used in you wiki if you are preparing anything regarding current pandemic.

https://www.flaticon.com/packs/stay-at-home-5

--Mohammad

[TiddlyTweeter]

I live in Gorizia, NE Italy. We are a joined town with Nova Gorica in Slovenia.

This region is odd. We are a mixed culture.

My town has enormous capacity to house the ill.

We have a whole hospital that is empty from cutbacks a decade ago.

The commune may use it so that coronavirus cases are separate from the other hospital.

We also have a vast walled village that is empty that used to house the military before unification with Slovenia.

There is some reluctance locally to take overload from Lombardy. 

IMO engaging with the POLITICS of what is happening matters a lot. I'm sure we can cope.

Local stories interest me most. Only they give a big picture.

TT

[Mark S.]

I'm reminded of why I've never been fond of emoticons as a substitute for words. What is this:

Please put the dishes in the dishwasher?

[TiddlyTweeter]

Mark S. wrote:

I'm reminded of why I've never been fond of emoticons as a substitute for words. What is this:

Please put the dishes in the dishwasher?

Right. Its conceptually confusing if you not in the "visual lingo" total. Just having a bunch of images means nothing without an applied usage framework.

In the current situation it is kinda distracting too.

My cent

TT

[TiddlyTweeter]

Like what?

I think the issue is you mean well, but I doubt those mean much without substantive context.

TT

Mohammad wrote:

 These can be used for preparing instructions and like that!

--Mohammad

[TiddlyTweeter]

Mohammad

HOW do we use TW to encourage & inform our politicians?

TT

[Birthe C]

 TT,

You ask Mohammad an impossible question. They talk about shortage of this and that, but do not answer offers given to solve the solutions.

What are they waiting for? A tiddlywiki. I do not think so. Maybe the big fat lobbyist with lots of "grease".

Birthe

[Mohammad]

Okay Josiah,

I think I sent my post in reply to my own previous one and it was not in reply to your post!

This like what Jeremy tries to help have some kind of online courses and connect instructors with their students!

So, if my post comes after your posts and caused misunderstandings, I delete those ones.

--Mohammad 

[TiddlyTweeter]

No. It was FINE! What I getting at is politics.

REPORTING the situation is different than QUESTIONING it.

It may just be me interested in what is happening, not just coping with it.

I have many questions on the epidemic.

This may not be a place for that. 

TT

[TiddlyTweeter]

Birthe C wrote:

 TT,

You ask Mohammad an impossible question.

Likely so.  You are right.

But just Coping seems weak. Don't you have a view on what is happening that engages local politicians at least?

TT

[Mark S.]

According to that chart submitted by Hans, Denmark is doing much better at flattening the curve compared to most other countries.

[Birthe C]

TT,

Pressure!

People discussing heavily on facebook and writing blogs. Some have good ideas and are working together to find ways to do stuff. Press get interested, politicians feel the heat. We have heard quite some public excuses now, and at least some ideas are been taken up and going forward.

For a minister to have to admit, that the lack is due to them not answering to offers given on providing, that sure must take something.

A lot of people want to help out one or the other way. Really kind of the same old fashioned way our society was build.

Birthe

[Birthe C]

Mark S,

In Denmark we are not testing enough. And changed who can get tested a short while ago. It will take a week before the curve will tell us something reliably.

Running out of protection gear for the health workers could quickly change the numbers.

Denmark is a very small country.

Birthe

[TiddlyTweeter]

Birthe C wrote:

TT,

Pressure!

Lol! A nice question!

 

People discussing heavily on facebook and writing blogs. Some have good ideas and are working together to find ways to do stuff. Press get interested, politicians feel the heat. We have heard quite some public excuses now, and at least some ideas are been taken up and going forward.

For a minister to have to admit, that the lack is due to them not answering to offers given on providing, that sure must take something.

A lot of people want to help out one or the other way. Really kind of the same old fashioned way our society was build.

You never mentioned an actual issue.

My simple questions are ...

- can we look after the ill AND not have lockdown for the whole society?

- what are the consequences of lock-down economically? 

- given that the virus will "wave" after lockdown repeatedly do you think it is viable to lockdown repeatedly? 

 TT

[Birthe C]

TT.

My simple questions are ...

- can we look after the ill AND not have lockdown for the whole society?

 

Sure. Right now when the system gets overwhelmed we deselect the old and sick.  With less and less health workers surviving, you would of course have to deselect more and more groups from getting treatment. (Resulting in many more death)

Would you be able to find any more volunteers to do the treatments?

- what are the consequences of lock-down economically? 

 

Higher than we know I am sure. Leaving every country with a hefty depth, peoples savings have vanished and the pension savings will have lost in value.

- given that the virus will "wave" after lockdown repeatedly do you think it is viable to lockdown repeatedly? 

Hm. Not having lock down does not mean that people have the money or demands for the same products.

Not knowing if the hairdresser is infectious, would you go for a blond treatment, having the highlighted stripes, the hair extension and some tan. It might be a "beauty to die for"

 TT

[TonyM]

Folks, 

Interesting insights continue here, from all over the world,

• In australia a large number of businesses have closed, pub, nightclub, cinemas with restaurants only for take away.
• But other businesses can operate, at least with most people working from home if possible, our airline industry has all but shut down.
• Other businesses have reduced staff levels in the office, social distancing etc...
• Our schools remain open (optionaly) but that is changing
• Many casual and Gig workers are out off work, and our government is ramping up support, including for sole traders and business.
• Predictions are from 3 to 18 months our society will operate in such a mode.

My concern is contracts, mortgages, loans and leases which operate well in normal times, threaten our society in these times, if they are not exercised with caution/compasion, both individuals and businesses are likely to go broke under the old rules, but can't avoid it under the new rules. 

For now we need to operate under the classic socialist model for a time, "from each as to their capacity, to each according to their need" even although the ideological capitalists in our midst will hate this. It is hardly time to exploit ones wealth and assets, when if you act as normal your actions will cause permanent damage to the economy and society, and once again greed may dominate, when non-selfish actions will reduce the damage in everyone's interest.

Personally we are fortunate to have the resources to survive, if not drawing off a mortgage (lets hope the banks don't get in my way) , but it could make it hard to thrive out the other side. I feel for those less fortunate but it looks like our Government is attempting to support people in need, whatever the long term cost. However history tells us that any bureaucratic system tends to have big gaps and this will be a continuous process.

Best of luck to you all and keep the conversation going.

Regards

Tony

[A Gloom]

On Sunday, March 22, 2020 at 10:08:27 AM UTC-4, Mark S. wrote:

Mi parolas Esperanton malbone!

Ĉu vi parolas Esperanton?

Mi ne, mi ne parolas Esperanton, sed Google Translate faras : P

 I'm looking at applying the copy to clipboard, open Google translate with pre-inserted instuctions (that can be translated) to paste clipboard contents to translate a tiddler contents for translation as a button/macro

[Birthe C]

Tony,

Do you really think so. Maybe in Australia? Look at who are getting the support and more importantly who are not.

Then think some years back to the last economic crisis. Who got the help and who were left behind.

I would not exactly call it a socialist model.

Birthe

tirsdag den 24. marts 2020 kl. 01.18.23 UTC+1 skrev TonyM:

For now we need to operate under the classic socialist model for a time, "from each as to their capacity, to each according to their need" even although the ideological capitalists in our midst will hate this. It is hardly time to exploit ones wealth and assets, when if you act as normal your actions will cause permanent damage to the economy and society, and once again greed may dominate, when non-selfish actions will reduce the damage in everyone's interest.

[A Gloom]

I'll have an sobering, perhaps unique, aftermath prespective-- when this is over and done with and I return to the support group the Veterans Administration offers, I wonder how many of us won't be making it,  I'm one of the youngest and have had a precautionary vaccine against pnumonia due to risk, but the most of the rest of them (spread across a sizeable geographic area) are much older and have more serious health conditions in addition to their blindness.  Even though soldiers are used to it, doesn't make it easier.

[Birthe C]

A Gloom,

No it does not get any easier.

Old people are just young people living long enough to get old.

I do not understand, why we call old people weak. They were strong enough to survive long enough to get old.

They often have more illnesses, but it also takes years for many illnesses to develop and get diagnosed. No surprise then, that they are often diagnosed in the older group.

From year 20 it goes downward faster and faster the older we get. If you live to get old you are called weak, just because you did not die young?

Very sad perspective indeed.

Birthe

[TonyM]

Birthe,

Do you really think so. Maybe in Australia? Look at who are getting the support and more importantly who are not.

I am not sure which part of what I said this was a response to.

 

 

Then think some years back to the last economic crisis. Who got the help and who were left behind.

Its different this time, in Australia with the GFC we had a centre-left party, they stimulated the economy and we came out of it better than almost anyone

 

I would not exactly call it a socialist model.

We now have a right wing party, what the are doing is socialist, at least for them, and given the different nature of the crisis perhaps even more government intervention than the GFC response. 

We have being called a "Socialist Democracy" by the thinkers for some time, though like everywhere else in the "west" we continue to become Americanised.

What ever actually happens does not change the clear need;

to operate under the classic socialist model for a time, "from each as to their capacity, to each according to their need" 

I am boyed by the facts that Australia has the largest number of not for profit organisation and a volunteer workforces in the world. If that can help as they did during our fires we will mitigate the damage quite a bit.

Regards

Tony

[A Gloom]

Birthe

From year 20 it goes downward faster and faster the older we get. If you live to get old you are called weak, just because you did not die young?

The sad reality of humans is their ignorance they disguise through fooling theirselves-- the young help perpetuate attitudes that will be used against them when their time comes

Abraham Lincolm wrote this in a young person's autograph book

To Rosa
You are young, and I am older;
      You are hopeful, I am not—
Enjoy life, ere it grows colder—
      Pluck the roses ere they rot.

Love his lesser known witings-- often feel a kinship

[Birthe C]

Yesterday we were told that we should really be tracked via mobile data.

That thought are not well received in the population.

The comments are harsh or even worse, very sarcastic and black humoured.

They will certainly know where people are at any time. The homeworkers can make nice curves and tables, statistics and all that jazz. They will not know who are infected though, because that are not tested before people are entering hospital, and the hospitals stay where they were yesterday and the day before.

I wonder will I be listed as a criminal for not owning a mobile?

Birthe

[A Gloom]

Birthe,

 

I wonder will I be listed as a criminal for not owning a mobile?

You can join my outlaw organizatin of one currently-- I has not smartphone

you mention something I was trying to spook associates with elsewhere-- someone showed a national map of counts from Internet connected thermometers and I saying we're seeing a glimpse of a Big Brother app-- they'll track your body temp and you get a fever they'll send you an email/text message/pop-up/social media DM that you better be self isolating or getting tested or be isolated/tested...

[HansWobbe]

I don't like to be cynical, but...

re: listed as a criminal for not owning a mobile

Abnormal behaviour does indeed have risks.  And as a result of 911, the "presumption of innocence" is no longer the norm.  Now everyone must submit to bureaucratic procedures in order to show  they are not potentially guilty

re: internet-connected thermometers...

 I can certainly see that Insurance companies will use that data to negate their coverage obligations under the guise of pre-existing conditions.

In Canada, we have recently had two major scandles in which the government tried to deny their actions and ignore the RuleOfLaw.  On 2020.03.23, the declaration of Emergency Financial Powers, that will be in effect for the next 18 months, effectively suspends democracy itself.

[Birthe C]

Insurance would also like to know, where you shopped, when and what you shopped.

You smoked at some point in life. You have shopped some wine or alcohol no matter how often and how much. You are not eating the healthiest menu.

Conclusion you illness is your own fault, we can not cover you.

For years people having more seldom illnesses or multiple illnesses that we do not know enough about have been called Functional Disorders. In reality treated in more and more clinics by psychiatrists. "It is all in the inside of your head. It is your way of thinking."

Then people are not getting insurance and are left to themselves. Getting other symptoms, they are getting ignored largely.

lack of tests or knowledge before this diagnose is very dangerous. Do not get a cancer later in life.

It might be true for some people but not for the majority. In medical history many illnesses have been called hypochondria, but science later proved that not to be true.

Register science looking for data can be an important thing, but science used to be so much more.

Birthe

[HansWobbe]

Birthe

I have had many encounters with Insurance companies throughout my life; none of them pleasant or profitable.

The most irritating was being declined because I took a test that proved I did not have a "prior" condition.  Turned out that taking the test was deemed to an "abnormal" act.  As a result I was declined.  The decline was noted in a database that is shared by all Insurance companies.  Being declined by one meant declined by all.

At this time, my only use of Insurance is for Business Succession planning which the Insurance monopoly lobby offers as an alternative that reduces taxation by government at time of death.

Fortunately, I am now in a position to be "self-insuring" for the majority of health needs.

[TonyM]

Folks,

I am a modern sceptic and this demands I be sceptical or all claims until I have evidence. Many of you raise serious concerns about Government or Business responses in the current situation. I also refuse to claim a specific left/right conservative/progressive ideology, because neither prepackaged ideologies, always respond to evidence. 

My sceptical brain also recognises a serious need to respond to this pandemic based on science. This science and history itself points to a need to have the population respond appropriately and consistently, and there is no other organisation than the Government in most countries, who can apply rules to every member of the population, all be it temporary.

Pandemics and disease in general, is by its nature about populations, we don't normally think of our self as part of a population we tend to restrict this to domestic farm animals and species in nature, or bacteria etc... It is not common for many of us to consider how we as an individual contribute towards the outcomes of the populations we live in. 

We should always be critical and sceptical, but we can "walk and chew gum" at the same time. We each need to recognise how we may need to temporarily put aside personal freedoms, in the interest of our whole societies.  I am however concerned that healthy scepticism can quickly turn to cynicism by the untrained, That may lead to unsubstantiated conspiracy theories, such "backlash approaches" could undermine any evidence based strategies and put at risk a large part of our populations.

Having being in the service of uncovering false claims, debunking conspiracy theorists, alt-med and anti-vax in society and the community, I can assure you if we do not dispute non-evidence based claims, from day one "false beliefs", by a less informed population can develop like a "pandemic of false ideas". As a responsible member of the Human race, we need to remain vigilant not only of others ideas, but the quality of our own ideas.

In Sydney we saw 20 and 30 somethings gathering in large numbers at the beach, big BBQ's and packed nightclubs, either ill informed or feeling immortal, when they should have known better, these things are now banned because individuals did not take responsibility, had they done so, these bans would not be in place (at least yet).

There is a direct relationship between how much individuals take individual responsibility and the need for the community/Government to take responsibility, if individuals do not. Increased freedom is a result of increased self responsibility. Freedom is useless to the dead.

Exercising one's individual freedom, to suspend some freedoms temporarily, in the interest of our communities, is the "measure" of good and intelligent people.

If humans wish to claim they are exceptional, and somewhat above raw in tooth and claw nature then, it is their own nature they need to question, and stand above.

Nature/the Universe/Gods have their laws and they are ever present, we will be victims of our own hubris if we are not careful. 

End of "informed rant"

Tony

On Sunday, March 22, 2020 at 6:12:47 AM UTC+11, Mohammad wrote:

This thread continues the discussion of Tiddlywiki and Coronavirus: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/IGrE-fslX84/PB-8xcFmAgAJ

This is to share information and see how we can use Tiddlywiki in this situation as a tool to help others.

The original thread got around 800 views and more than 104 posts.

--Mohammad

[TonyM]

Interesting argument that the term should be physical distancing,

Not social distancing. Detailed in attached PDF

[A Gloom]

I knew it but no one would believe the doomsayer-- the American economy and its freedoms runs off of human secrifices...

don't do a Google search for covid seniors sacrificed

[Birthe C]

A Gloom,

A sure way of spreading the virus faster.

(The following is sarcasm). Just raise the price for intensive care and there will be beds and staff enough.

[A Gloom]

Birthe

A sure way of spreading the virus faster.
(The following is sarcasm). Just raise the price for intensive care and there will be beds and staff enough.

They seem to forgot some of the first to die were people in their 50's not 70's as they think will be the ones dying

I'm sure everyone knows of Factcheck.org, the have a Covid section (tho seems full of American stories and perhap[s not revelant to other countries-- is the US the only ones living in denial? >> <<) -- https://www.factcheck.org/a-guide-to-our-coronavirus-coverage/

[Birthe C]

A. Gloom

First and most important. We need you - if I could, I would in fact clone you!

You are right about the younger ones. A lot of them need intensive care to survive.

Everywhere some people are living in denial, but really we are able to find estimates for each country. (Not testing enough, most will be based on "guesstimates".)

Birthe

[A Gloom]

Birthe

Thank you for the kind words, it's obvious I'm not taking my disability/retirement well...

but as someone more eloquent said it better than i could

Because it gives some sense of power and passion
  In helpless innocence to try to fashion
    Our woe in living words howe'er uncouth.

Thompson, City of Dreadful Night

You are right about the younger ones. A lot of them need intensive care to survive.
Everywhere some people are living in denial, but really we are able to find estimates for each country. (Not testing enough, most will be based on "guesstimates".)

I believe people are thinking medicine/healthcare system will "fix" them if they get it-- I may be wrong but all they can do for you is supportive care-- there's no "fix" for Covid19 yet?

[TiddlyTweeter]

Birthe & all,

Birthe C wrote:

TT.

- can we look after the ill AND not have lockdown for the whole society?

 

Sure. Right now when the system gets overwhelmed we deselect the old and sick.  With less and less health workers surviving, you would of course have to deselect more and more groups from getting treatment. (Resulting in many more death)

Would you be able to find any more volunteers to do the treatments?

Probably. The Lombardy region asked for volunteers and 3,000 retired, unemployed or part-time health care workers volunteered.

Several retired volunteer doctors died already.

Another factor is equipment & supplies. Fiat factories in Italy are tooling up for mask production since Italy does not currently produce its own.

Ventilators too with other companies.

- what are the consequences of lock-down economically? 

 

Higher than we know I am sure. Leaving every country with a hefty depth, peoples savings have vanished and the pension savings will have lost in value.

Hopefully capacity to cope will improve. As will treatments. Alpha interferons look promising. Asian countries trialed them first in combo with other drugs. And Cuba has been for a long time (Cuba has more doctors working internationally than any other proportionately; and extensively worked with epidemics in recent decades).

Some cities in the West do have empty large buildings. Here we have a whole unused hospital. 

The rough thinking is to bring it back into use and use it specifically for covid for the region.

 

- given that the virus will "wave" after lockdown repeatedly do you think it is viable to lockdown repeatedly? 

Hm. Not having lock down does not mean that people have the money or demands for the same products.

Not knowing if the hairdresser is infectious, would you go for a blond treatment, having the highlighted stripes, the hair extension and some tan. It might be a "beauty to die for"

So a big issue, if not the issue, is to increase capacity so that survival rates improve. 

You are right that after lockdown the economy is likely to be damaged from trepidation. Italy is awash with family run tavernos. My small city (40k) has 40 of them just in the main city. Trepidation may well devastate them.

I asked friends to guess how many businesses here in Gorizia will never re-open, a kind of local bet. I guess 10% - 20%. They think it could be higher.

Right now I need dental treatment. Dentists are shut. If its an emergency I would have to risk the emergency hospital.

Lock-down is about both coping now and capacity building for the future. If you don't do that you can get in a viscous cycle.

If you don't get back to work too, as well as reduce social isolation, it may be worse.

Italy has High numbers of very old people who live alone totally unused to isolation. Who socialise daily and never before experienced this kind of situation.

I haven't been able to look yet at "consequent" factors like suicide rates. Over financial ruin, on intense alienation from society, over just being very old and feeling you a burden etc

I'm a person who likes being alone. And even I am going "stir-crazy".

Best wishes

TT

[TiddlyTweeter]

Birthe wrote in reply to Gloom:

I believe people are thinking medicine/healthcare system will "fix" them if they get it-- I may be wrong but all they can do for you is supportive care-- there's no "fix" for Covid19 yet?

There are considerable variations by country caused by the co-factor of social behaviours.

"Younger" cultures have different variants than "Older" countries as social behaviors differ. 

Because in West testing has been limited the infection matrix is only just emerging and still v. unclear.

To be brutal, the stats, are confusing & inadequate. 

They conflate social behaviours and outcome measures. Yes, some younger people need intensive care. BUT is that the same issue as overall predictive norms on critical infection of the whole population?

The problem with "Guesstimates" is that its like corralling the horse after its bolted. And then it bolts again. So the "guesstimate" gets accurate eventually post hoc, but not now  as its largely ad hoc.

Being clear on emidemiological stats matters to planning effectively.

If I can figure it out I'll post a note on the stats bits that are clear enough.

Best wishes

TT

[TiddlyTweeter]

TonyM wrote:

Interesting argument that the term should be physical distancing,

Not social distancing. Detailed in attached PDF

Interesting short article that is likely wrong.

Social distancing is mediated through physical distancing. Its not a concept, it is a reality.

Sure, there may be some cultural variations on the psycho-social effects of distancing. 

Italy is a pretty "touchy-feely" society and physical distancing is obviously having profound negative consequences.

BTW, if you look back at Ebola one of biggest issues controlling it was that the African cultures involved comfort the dying. 

Being with the dying is (was) considered essential.

This is why anthropologists were used by WHO to try help work out a culturally acceptable way to distance.

Best wishes

TT

[Birthe C]

TT,

I could have written that, but I didn't.

Birthe

[TonyM]

I think the thing is social distancing is what separation causes and physical distancing is what is needed.

Italians and French people singing from balconies is coming together socially not physically as is a phone or Skype call. It is these social closeness activities that will help us deal with this crisis even if it occurs at a physical distance. We need to all come together apart.

Tony

[TiddlyTweeter]

Birthe C wrote:

Yesterday we were told that we should really be tracked via mobile data.

That thought are not well received in the population. 

Right. It is an excellent example of tension between "collective right to know about you" and "individual right to control you own life".

As far as I understand it South Korea used smart phone tracking very effectively, alongside other surveillance, including CCTV.

However that is in a context of sharing back data. They used social media to alert you of local "hotspot" areas to avoid using GPS.

They developed an infrastructure for it since the previous epidemics in the region. I doubt other countries would have that degree of integration quickly.

 

I wonder will I be listed as a criminal for not owning a mobile?

 

Doubt it. Its just I would say that once government gets right to do that kind of "consolidated tracking" it may be very difficult to reverse.

Best wishes

TT

[TiddlyTweeter]

eek! apologies to both of you.

[Birthe C]

Tony,

Balcony singing is also taken up in Denmark?

It does seem nice. I just wonder?

In one of the apartments could be a very sick person, told not to call emergency before hardly breathing and lips turning blue (The message people ARE getting) . How hard would it be to phone for help?

Birthe

[TiddlyTweeter]

TonyM wrote:

I think the thing is social distancing is what separation causes and physical distancing is what is needed.

Italians and French people singing from balconies is coming together socially not physically as is a phone or Skype call. It is these social closeness activities that will help us deal with this crisis even if it occurs at a physical distance. We need to all come together apart.

Sure amelioration is good! Isn't it happening anyway by those who can? Everyone I know closely here (white, middle-class, middle-aged) are beavering away on social media. People can who sing have been sometimes.

But its amelioration, not a substitute for the missing direct connection.

And I think its easy to forget how many most vulnerable don't have the internet or smartphone or know how to use it.

TT

 

[TiddlyTweeter]

TonyM wrote:

I think the thing is social distancing is what separation causes and physical distancing is what is needed.

Italians and French people singing from balconies is coming together socially not physically as is a phone or Skype call.

Balcony singing, sure. Anything else? Any other physical activity? Shouting across roads to neighbours? Waving?

The rest is ALREADY what hundreds of millions us do and have for years! "Virtual closeness" exists. 

Nothing new in that.

That is just an existing general trend. People are doing it. Unless they can't.

Post also still works here.

It does not obviate fact human beings experience social relations most via proximity.

TT

[TiddlyTweeter]

TonyM wrote:

Italians and French people singing from balconies is coming together socially not physically

Actually that IS physical AND social.

But, maybe you could organise a "sing-a-long" online:-)

Best wishes

TT

[TiddlyTweeter]

Birthe C wrote:

In one of the apartments could be a very sick person, told not to call emergency before hardly breathing and lips turning blue (The message people ARE getting) . How hard would it be to phone for help?

Decide on a code to hang outside your window indicating you are ill. Say a towel? A thought.

The point is to "flag" collective (local) awareness in some way. We live in societies mediated by people we don't know well for many services (like health).

Missing is RE-connecting in some way with people we do. Hopefully neighbours care. An inter-neighbour signalling system. Put your phone number on a sign outside the window? Speak to Jones across the road.

See what I getting at?

Thoughts

TT

[TiddlyTweeter]

Birthe C wrote:

In one of the apartments could be a very sick person, told not to call emergency before hardly breathing and lips turning blue (The message people ARE getting) . How hard would it be to phone for help?

I'm sure some people will die that way. HOW would you know its become critical? 

Self-isolation is in danger of becoming "uninformed death".

Instructions I seen in Italy on self-isolation are all too vague.

TT 

[Birthe C]

TT,

Exactly. But people who die at home will not be tested. They do not get registered as Corona death, so much for statistics.

Birthe

[TiddlyTweeter]

Birthe C wrote:

Exactly. But people who die at home will not be tested. They do not get registered as Corona death, so much for statistics.

Unless coroners are instructed to test the dead we won't know.

For instance a coroner focuses usually on immediate cause of death like "heart failure" or "respiratory inadequacy" etc. 

They don't go further without cause.

I will ask in Italy if coroners are testing or not.

TT 

[TiddlyTweeter]

I got a great simple message from Southern Texas ...

"people round here live from paycheck to paycheck"

I have grudging understanding on Trump wanting US to get back to work if possible.

Given USA healthcare is so crap on anyone with limited income or none.

USA is very interesting to watch.

Its not in a Good place to handle an epidemic IMO.

TT

[TiddlyTweeter]

A follow on Southern Texas message ...

"Most people I know won't get tested because they can't afford treatment."

Background is that testing is free Federally. Treatment is vague & left to States.

TT

[Birthe C]

TT,

Do they have the capacity in healthcare for people with insurance?

Rather important for people wanting business as usual to know, I would think.

Birthe

[TiddlyTweeter]

The worker in US who is on temporary contract have no heath rights at all usually.

There is NO such thing as simple insurance in USA. There is NO universal bottom line. Each contract has different benefits.

TT

[TiddlyTweeter]

One assumption you make there is that the employer determines healthcare.

That is often not the case.

It is so complicated I would not know where to start explain it.

TT

[TiddlyTweeter]

In terms of money the health care businesses in the USA should do fine.

It everything OUTSIDE their policies that is the issue.

TT

[Birthe C]

TT,

I am not really worrying about how much money the health care businesses in the USA have or have not.

Do they have enough Intensive care beds ready to take care of people.

Surely part of the population has good insurance and would expect to be treated.

In my country a lot of the calculated resources are really adding the stuff from dentists, the vets, the private hospitals and specialists.

In a country wanting business as usual, those businesses would expect to continue life as normal and use their own equipment....Or is it only business as usual for some businesses?

Birthe

[TiddlyTweeter]

Capacity in USA to treat people who paid for it is likely matched.

I am more interested in everyone else who didn't.

TT

[TiddlyTweeter]

Getting messages from corporations telling me how much they care makes me want to vomit.

[Birthe C]

TT,

Go for it, in the right direction, that would tell them!

[TonyM]

All, 

Interesting conversation.

Birthe,

In one of the apartments could be a very sick person, told not to call emergency before hardly breathing and lips turning blue (The message people ARE getting) . How hard would it be to phone for help?

Is this really happening not to call emergency before hardly breathing and lips turning blue ? This would be stupid, although one could imagine if the health system is overwhelmed. The percentage of people once infected that, have poor outcomes is low, so for many it will not be a problem, they just need to be quarantined. 

In Tracking mobile phones; If you are Quarantined with the virus and a temporary law says you must be quarantined and you are wandering around the streets putting others at risk it would make sense to detect your activities. But of course the problem is the misuse of the technology now or in the future. With any surveillance issue it often comes down to the execution and supportive laws, unfortunately future governments can change the laws.

All,

Use the words you want, Physical/Social Distancing. My point and that of the article is isolations and Quarantine is essential to reduce the peak in infection/hospitalisation, implementing isolations and Quarantine requires physical distancing, but as a community we must ensure social, emotional support for all in our society. 

Contact your elders and friends to say "Are you OK", if you are free to, deliver food outside someone's door, I just talked an elder through fixing the sound on her computer so she can receive electronic birthday wishes. Set up an open video connection with your children living elsewhere, or your grandchildren for a few hours, Call your parents daily, email people some entertainment, act as an advocate for someone disadvantaged and do some online shopping for someone without internet.

Also, 

This would be a good time to introduce a "Universal Basic Income"e"

 

Look after yourself and people near you, dear friends

Tony

 

Birthe

[TiddlyTweeter]

TonyM wrote:

Birthe,

In one of the apartments could be a very sick person, told not to call emergency before hardly breathing and lips turning blue (The message people ARE getting) . How hard would it be to phone for help?

Is this really happening not to call emergency before hardly breathing and lips turning blue ? This would be stupid, although one could imagine if the health system is overwhelmed. The percentage of people once infected that, have poor outcomes is low, so for many it will not be a problem, they just need to be quarantined. 

The point was HOW would you know what critical means? "Stupid" is not helpful. A person alone needs criterion on their own symptoms. Public announcements in Italy on self-care remain vague. Many people are deferential by nature. I wonder if some are dying from politeness.

TT

[A Gloom]

Balcony singing is also taken up in Denmark?

Brilliant idea.  But it would get the cops called on me ><  Don't know if they don't appreciate my singing voice or me singing Viking metal songs of battle and glory-- probably both : D

Americans have their noses glued to their mobilte device or TV?  Though the karaoke fans may with the  karaoke bars closed.

[TiddlyTweeter]

I notice you ignored my comments.

[TiddlyTweeter]

TonyM wrote:

In Tracking mobile phones; If you are Quarantined with the virus and a temporary law says you must be quarantined and you are wandering around the streets putting others at risk it would make sense to detect your activities. But of course the problem is the misuse of the technology now or in the future. With any surveillance issue it often comes down to the execution and supportive laws, unfortunately future governments can change the laws

To say again. South Korea used phones & other surveillance tech to assist very effectively. Everyone was tracked. That is why it worked.

It is an important issue. Pretty central I think. 

Though SK had the infrastructure already, so we should not beat up on ourselves yet.

SK is a democracy that accepted it based on their previous nightmares with viruses.

TT

[TiddlyTweeter]

 A Gloom wrote:

Balcony singing is also taken up in Denmark?

Brilliant idea. 

 

I can't sing decently. The idea of LOCAL solidarity is good though.  What other ways do you suggest?

TT

[A Gloom]

@TT

Capacity in USA to treat people who paid for it is likely matched.

Just like Italy, America-- nor any other country I believe (I'm interested to see if Germany's bed capafcity is enough) is prepared for massive casualities (in this case sick),  Been known since the Cold War (& civil defense) and movies have touched on it.  When the article about Italy's health care system straining-- the doctors mentioned wartime casaulity rates (I rememcer that term from civil defense)

Despite what everyone thinks, America does have medical care for non-insured, disadvantaged (publically funded county hospitals that already overwhelmed)-- i've used it before-- its limited by funding and you get billed if not on a social program/financial assitance.  It will be overwhelmed just like private care-- NYC already called for assistance from the Federal Government because they already know they don't have the capacity.

The military is mobilizing 2 hospital ships and 1 full field hospital which raises another issue-- lack of health care staff, military reserves draw from the civilian population and those who are health care may already be engaged in the civilian health care system.

[A Gloom]

@TT

I notice you ignored my comments.

Which?  There's so many! : P

[TiddlyTweeter]

A Gloom wrote:

@TT

Capacity in USA to treat people who paid for it is likely matched.

Just like Italy, America-- nor any other country I believe (I'm interested to see if Germany's bed capafcity is enough)

German intensive care provision is better than Italy.

 

Despite what everyone thinks, America does have medical care for non-insured ...

It is simply not credible. There is no way that you can have universal healthcare for all AND have expensive private systems at the scale USA has that foster saving those most that pay most.

Sure you could say "we helped". It is NOT a level field and pretence it is is silly.

My quotes from Texas express it quite well.

TT

[TiddlyTweeter]

So reply to a few.

TT

[TiddlyTweeter]

Gloom,

The two  quotes from Texas ...

"people round here live from paycheck to paycheck"

"Most people I know won't get tested because they can't afford treatment." 

Seems likely.

Since USA has NO universal healthcare commitment.

A person ill would have NO idea of Liberals wishes you may have. 

There is as yet no Federal commitment to universal care.

TT

[Mark S.]

On Wednesday, March 25, 2020 at 9:11:51 AM UTC-7, TiddlyTweeter wrote:

Capacity in USA to treat people who paid for it is likely matched.

No. JIT (Just In Time) inventory systems have  been a staple of all industries, including the medical/industrial complex for a long time. There's maybe (depending on sources) 200,000 ventilators in the U.S. Keeping a lot of stuff around "just in case" is unprofitable, especially if it has a running time stamp.

[Mark S.]

My hardware tool supply sent a message like that, reassuring me that they're taking extra measures to clean their location. I guess they're keeping their doors open. Are they essential? Why not, considering even the marijuana dispensaries have been deemed "essential".