Don't call attention to TWC

[Mat]

Disregarding the irony of the very title:

In another thread someone requested more attention to TiddlyWiki Classic/TWC/TW2, i.e the predecessor to TW5. To which I replied:

I don't get why NEW attention should be brought to TWC which is, after all, a system we've advanced from. Sure, it works and it's great, but there has been no development for it in almost a decade. It seems mostly that people who use it do so because they didn't muster up the effort to make the transition. Yes, I know this is not 100% the case because TWC is more performant in some aspects but the same can probably be said of Windows 95 or whatever. We've moved on, for good reasons, and we should not "trick" people into spending time on that old technology. There is recurring confusion for newcomers where they found some plugin or information that strangely "doesn't work".
Let TWC fade out to be a nostalgic memory that is still beautiful but that we shouldn't dwell on.

And to which TiddlyTweeter replied:

Could you please take this OUT of [that thread] so I can lambast your ass appropriately.

AHA! Challenge accepted!

<:-)

[PMario]

On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 12:54:01 PM UTC+2, Mat wrote:

Disregarding the irony of the very title:

In another thread someone requested more attention to TiddlyWiki Classic/TWC/TW2, i.e the predecessor to TW5. To which I replied:

I don't get why NEW attention should be brought to TWC which is, after all, a system we've advanced from. Sure, it works and it's great, but there has been no development for it in almost a decade.

Hooow, ... You are really wrong here!

Yakov does a really great job in maintaining and updating TWclassic. The last commit is 14 days ago. The last version is 2.9.2 from Feb. 2019. ... Sure the development is slower than TW5 but I think it is still a viable member in the TW ecosystem.

There have been some problems with the save mechanism in the past, because of browser changes. Some of them also needed some action on TWc side.

 

It seems mostly that people who use it do so because they didn't muster up the effort to make the transition. Yes, I know this is not 100% the case because TWC is more performant in some aspects but the same can probably be said of Windows 95 or whatever. We've moved on, for good reasons, and we should not "trick" people into spending time on that old technology. There is recurring confusion for newcomers where they found some plugin or information that strangely "doesn't work".
Let TWC fade out to be a nostalgic memory that is still beautiful but that we shouldn't dwell on.

I wouldn't start a new wiki with TWc but I also have some "note wikis" that are still TWc. I don't see a reason to change a working system.

 

-mario

[Mat]

PMario wrote:

Hooow, ... You are really wrong here!

Yakov does a really great job in maintaining and updating TWclassic. The last commit is 14 days ago. The last version is 2.9.2 from Feb. 2019.

Gaaah! My shoulder.... I'm... wounded... 

TiddlyTweeter and PMario clearly plotted an ambush with an extremely sharp argument I was not aware of.

Before I pass on to the other side, please tell me... why would you want to use TWC instead of TW5 other than the argument that it would be messy to convert it? What about the defective cars?

<:-)

[Birthe C]

Mat,

The great work of Yakov and the activity in the TiddlyWikiClassic group tells us otherwise.

At the same time it is a big part of tiddlywiki history.

Could you and TT please avoid harming one another. Both of you are wanted and kind of fixed installation in this group.

Birthe

[TiddlyTweeter]

Mat wrote:

AHA! Challenge accepted!

Feeble attempt ...

A dopo sword.

J.

[Alfonso Arciniega]

Hi Mat,

One reason: I have several TWC's that cannot be upgraded/transferred/modified to, to TW5 (so far). These are highly functional/highly customized with plugins that don't exist in TW5 (again, so far).

Let's go to an analogy: TWC is like a very good small car while TW5 is like a sports fully loaded car. If you are given both for free you will take the second in a nutshell; though if your small car can do some things that you need (like parking in small spaces, low fuel consumption, etc.) you would probably stick to it.

Cheers,

Alfonso Arciniega

[Magnus]

Before I pass on to the other side, please tell me... why would you want to use TWC instead of TW5 other than the argument that it would be messy to convert it? What about the defective cars?

 

TiddlyLockPlugin :)

I made an intranet-information-tingy at work with TWc 2.8.something, that I would not be able to replicate in TW 5

[Mat]

Thanks for reply guys.

Alfonso Arciniega wrote:

plugins that don't exist in TW5 (again, so far).

Which ones, if you don't mind me asking?

Magnus wrote:

TiddlyLockPlugin :)

I had never heard of this but found it directly with google. Interesting but I'm pretty sure Bob features this. 

<:-)

[Magnus]

Yes, that is not possible, the IT-guys (and women) won´t allow it :D

[Peter Buyze]

@Magnus: so because some IT guys/gals in some company won't allow you to use what you could/should be using an obsolete version should be maintained and get attention? Wow.

18 May 2020, 01:18 by magnus...@gmail.com:

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[Eric Shulman]

On Sunday, May 17, 2020 at 9:10:33 PM UTC-7, Peter Buyze wrote:

@Magnus: so because some IT guys/gals in some company won't allow you to use what you could/should be using an obsolete version should be maintained and get attention? Wow.

Peter:

A few things for you to consider:

* Just because you might not agree with some else's point of view does NOT justify the dismissive, snarky tone.  While that might be the norm in other groups, in this community, we don't do that.  It's not "clever", it's not "polite", nor is it appreciated.

* You've only recently started using TiddlyWiki 5, so you might be spoiled by the rich eco-system of functionality it offers.  However, a great deal of the functionality you see in TiddlyWiki 5 owes it origins to innovations first developed in TiddlyWiki Classic.  It might help your understanding of TiddlyWiki 5 features if you were to learn where much of it came from.

* There are several key features of TiddlyWiki Classic which are NOT possible (or not permitted) by TiddlyWiki 5.  Among them: "slices" (ability to individually reference and transclude portions of tiddler content), and "inline javascript" (support for complex coding "on the fly").

* Since each TiddlyWiki file contains a complete copy of the core code, there are LOTS of existing TiddlyWiki Classic documents that continue to provide daily value to their users, and -- as has been pointed out -- there is still ongoing development (both maintenance and improvements) to the TiddlyWiki Classic core code.

* At the risk of being boastful, I suggest you visit my TiddlyWiki Classic site: http://TiddlyTools.com, and view the "plugins" and "transclusions" tabs from the "Welcome" tiddler.  You will see a very large list of features that can be added to any TiddlyWiki Classic document... and, while many of these add-ons are now incorporated directly into the TiddlyWiki 5 core code, there are still many that have not (yet) been migrated or re-implemented to work in TiddlyWiki 5.

-e

Eric Shulman

TiddlyTools.com: "Small Tools for Big Ideas!" (tm)

InsideTiddlyWiki - http://TiddlyTools.com/InsideTW

[Peter Buyze]

Eric,

I apologise for the faux pas, it will not happen again.

Peter

18 May 2020, 08:37 by elsd...@gmail.com:

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[TiddlyTweeter]

Mat

Point 1 -- it is VERY IMPORTANT  to draw attention to TWC when a wiki ...

 -- Works well ...

 -- After many years, fine

 -- in empirical support of a "30 year rule" --- what you wrote decades ago will STILL WORK after you left the mortal coil --- your great-grandchildren will be about to see your photo gallery about the history of the mobile phone.

TT

[TiddlyTweeter]

Mat

Point 2 -- Its important to acknowledge Yakov.

-- "saving" seamlesslyTWC ... has proved to be an issue. Yakov embraced the importance to TWC continuity.

-- the complexities on "saving" issue were likely NOT anticipated way back when TWC started that.

-- it matters to have minimal ongoing support for at least that, so as not to break a "30 year rule" on longevity.

TT

On Saturday, 16 May 2020 12:54:01 UTC+2, Mat wrote:

[TiddlyTweeter]

Mat

Point 3 - Many TWC remain exceptionally interesting, functional.

-- JR often, rightly, quotes the volleyball thing ... http://pespot.tiddlyspot.com/

-- Some time ago Dragon showed his amazing wiki in TWC that is a vast informational resource with great performance. (I won't re-post that link without his permission)

TT

On Saturday, 16 May 2020 12:54:01 UTC+2, Mat wrote:

[TiddlyTweeter]

Mat

Point 4 - There can be an over-superior attitude to after-TWC that is ill-informed.

As Eric comments important things were achieved in TWC that remain elusive in TW5.

FWIW, I would not be using TW unless I had stumbled on http://tiddlytools.com/. I never really used TWC extensively. Eric's wiki blew my mind though. It stuck with me. The sheer richness and flexibility was gobsmacking at the time. I was heavily into blog systems like Movable Type. It blew away their over strictness. It fixed "TiddlyWiki" in my mind.

It is still very impressive. Its not just a testament to "then", it is a rich resource for now.-

TT

On Saturday, 16 May 2020 12:54:01 UTC+2, Mat wrote:

[Mat]

@Peter - In fairness to Magnus - he only kindly replied to my explicit question why people still bother with TWC.

@Magnus, thank you for your reply, it makes sense. 

@Alfonso, thank you to you also. 

<:-)

[Birthe C]

Mat,

Honestly using or not using TWC aren't you missing any of the goodies.

I love TW5 and can do without, but I do miss tagglytagging. It was newbie friendly.

Another not-necessity but nice to have was Archived timeline. After years of notes it felt nice.

Birthe

[Mark Kerrigan]

Thank TT for pointing us TWC fans over to this thread.

Like many have said, TWC still works. Why fix whats broken? I've been using TWC for almost 10 years by now. Sure there have been some hiccups along the way, but once you setup a saving system that works for you, it's almost frictionless.

Like Eric mentioned, there are still some design aspects of TWC not yet implemented in TW5. Also I would say it can be a bit more challenging to find the right way to modify the CSS to suit your desires in TW5. For example the other day I spent a lot of time messing around with the PageTemplate in order to center both the story river and the side bar with equal amounts of space on either side. I ended up creating two new CSS classes as it wasn't possible to re-arrange with the existing CSS classes.

At best (TWC and TW5) are different approaches to achieving similar results. The advances in wikitext and support for fields are do interest me in TW5. But the most powerful aspect of TWC is the fact it still works and I have no doubt it will continue to work for another 10 years and beyond. The fact the community continues to sustain itself is even more promising when not all software can manage to achieve such a luxury.

- Mark

[passingby]

Let's take the case of individual TWC documents that are out there, or even somebody going ahead and creating a new document in TWC.

1. TWC is Javascript. And Javascript is javascript, no worries of it expiring right now.

2. There is no database or any third party Softwares which might pose a problem.

3. If it's a personal offline document, TWC offers a great scope of doing WHATEVER one wants to do with it if one knows Javascript. Because of Eric's javascript plugin one could really go to the Town with hacking.

On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 3:54:01 AM UTC-7, Mat wrote:

[Reto]

One reason: I have several TWC's that cannot be upgraded/transferred/modified to, to TW5 (so far). These are highly functional/highly customized with plugins that don't exist in TW5 (again, so far).

Same here: I also do have a *heavily* customized TWC including more than 12'000 tiddlers in daily usage. For instance there are more than 70 different lists (read: kind of reports) based on ForEachTiddler plugin. Only to migrate these would mean easily a person month effort. Then there is other custom functionality that I would have to re-implement.

I am very glad that Yakov took over the maintenance and further development ... most feared scenario is that some browser development leads to the situation that TWC can't be saved anymore.

[Corey S]

My own two cents.

I've been using TWC since about 2002-2003. I lost the first one, but have been using a subsequent one ever since. I still have tiddlers from 2006. I use it for recipes now mostly.

I started using the TiddlyDesktop for a couple years now because I'd had enough of Firefox breaking my saving. I won't go back to that. I still like the single file. The data will never be lost.

I like the third column on the left side, I have a navigation section over there as well as a calendar that shows when I've added tiddlers or modified them. The only thing I haven't been able to get working is the tag cloud thingy.

I've looked, occasionally for themes that bring this third column to TW5, without luck. Most everything else is fine. That's all I need. Use more of the available screen space.

TW Classic is like a warm blanket on a cold day to sit in front of a crackling fire.

[David Gifford]

Nice reply, Eric. Important stuff to remember.

I can add for Peter's and other's sake, that my TiddlyWiki toolmap had a predecessor I created for TW classic: http://tiddlyvault.tiddlyspot.com/. I haven't updated it in years, and I imagine since then Eric has added many more. But the Vault shows many plugins and tools created by others besides Eric as well. They were creative and exciting days, just as we have now.

[Yakov]

Hello everybody,

quite ironically, recently I've mentioned this topic to Jeremy before this thread started (or at least before I saw it) and we were going to discuss it a bit when he recovers, but I'll make some brief points here (well, as brief as I usually do :D).

1. TiddlyWiki Classic is not going anywhere. There's a number of active users and there's development of the core, infrastructure, docs and extensions going on. The progress is not very fast, my (time) resources are quite limited but there are other community members who contribute valuable bits and I hope their number will grow, especially when some infrastructure issues get resolved (explorability and autoupdating of plugins, CD of docs updates etc) – well, once I have reasonably good infrastructure I'll release a number of new plugins myself. TWC already works with Timimi in Firefox and I'm exploring ways to adapt it to Chrome (and Chromium-based browsers), I've proposed the first PR that makes it work with TWC, it is now merged, but looks like it won't pass the security check of Chrome extensions store so I'll finish this once I implement async saving in TWC core. Okido, James, Donmor and others created new TWC savers and other tools. Things are changing.

2. Sure, TWC needs many things updated before it can really attract new users, especially when there are tools like TW5 or Notion out there. I have plans for important improvements like changing the design* in a backward compatible way, but I have somewhat realistic view regarding chances that TWC community will grow, although there are definitely those who use TWC but haven't joined the TWC google group yet. If somebody is reading this, I invite you to https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/tiddlywikiclassic

3. Nevertheless, I'm a bit upset by the general attempt to lock TWC from new users. I'm not doing about this much (beside improving TWC ecosystem for existing and potential users) but find some conversations somewhat offensive. On the other hand, this route of discussion sometimes brings more points about values of TWC. They are difficult to list reasonably clearly, not in a form of "there are great many plugins like those in TiddlyTools". Even some distinct features like those provided by SharedTiddlersPlugin are not so easy to understand until you really need them. Others, like HandsontablePlugin or ace-Plugin.js are more clear though.

4. Here's an important point that I'd like to be heard. I believe that afterall it is not specific tool that makes the community to thrive and have great user experience in the long term, but rather certain principles that ensure quality and progress. They include both "purely human" principles like kindness, open-mindness, exploration of others' needs, readiness to help, giving back; and "more technical" principles like Open Source and usage of permissive licenses (like MIT or BSD) and other things that facilitate contribution and sharing (providing additional docs, especially when the project requires some "building" from the sources, using infrastructure like github for easier proposing of changes etc), Open Design (describing software and data architecture so that it can be shared, adapted or improved) and usage of various design patterns. I also believe that discussing differences between TWC, TW5 and other platforms, possible architecture convergence, content federation can be very fruitful (for instance, a bit more help with describing saving architecture* will allow to both adapt MainTiddlyServer to save TW5 and to make TWC core saver similar to that of TW5 so that new savers can easily support both and also that will point some blank spots like universal model for file loading etc).

So poking one another is not the best option we actually have.

Best regards,
Yakov.

понедельник, 18 мая 2020 г., 20:57:48 UTC+3 пользователь passingby написал:

[Mat]

Yakov - interesting to read.

Can I ask what makes you, personally, stick with TWC instead of switching to TW5? What is it that you and the TWC community sees that Jeremy did not see when he evidently said that TWC is not a good enough system and it needs a complete revamp?

So no misunderstanding: This is a totally fair question, asked because I really would like to know. I was once a TWC user (I started with TW in 2006/7 so...) and loved it but after having started with TW5 I'm not even considering going back. Yes, there are a few bits that we don't have in TW5 but there is a ton of stuff that we don't have in TWC.

<:-)

[Yakov]

Yakov - interesting to read.

Can I ask what makes you, personally, stick with TWC instead of switching to TW5?

Well, that's quite simple: first, it's migration that's basically impossible (too many extensions, too much content, no tools for gradual migration like TW5 with formatter from TWC or mixed formatter and no docs to migrate extensions). Let be honest, this first reason is enough, I can't estimate others effectively. But also TW5 has design which is not nice for desktop, higher learning curve (or at least I have to learn more than I expected to just create a simple aggregated list or a simple plugin etc). May be there were other reasons, I don't remember.

What is it that you and the TWC community sees that Jeremy did not see when he evidently said that TWC is not a good enough system and it needs a complete revamp?

Well, I've tried to figure what are the main architecture differences and asked about that 2 or 3 times but never got any detailed answer. TWC architecture has some flaws, but don't consider any of them unrepairable. The question as you put it doesn't seem to be quite correct.
 

[TonyM]

Yakov,

I support maintaining TWC and appreciate your work and words on this matter. Yet perhaps I come from yet another position, as TiddlyWiki did a big Jump from 2 to 5 so did I. I delayed until version 5 became mature enough and then took the big jump. The value of TWC being maintained i I still have my original multi function TWC tiddlyWiki sitting in TiddlyDesktop available on demand. This fact actually helped me migrate, that is a healthy and vital TWC Platform is needed if we want to support those who may eventually Jump to TW5.

Interestingly I built up my new personal organiser first to replace the one in TWC, before I started dozens of other tiddlywikis. Irrespective of TiddlyWiki version I am looking to rebuild this soon based on new features and my own knowledge, basically like the itterations in transitions from TWC to TW5, I am about to do a new one TW5(early)  to  TW5(recent knowledge), this will be easier than the last "jump".

Here are some personal observations to consider;

• In TWC I found my self dependant on others releasing new versions, rather than in TW5 I can use wiki text to solve almost anything.
• I used to go to Erics tiddlytools and the recent tab regularly
• We could use Javascript more in TWC in some ways, but this "need" on my part has diminished with TW5
• I was starting to find TWC more fragile and had a few disasters.
• Perhaps you have improved the saving for TWC but I now use Timimi, tw-receiver and node server implementations, is TWC as rich in these?
• I now feel I can do almost anything in TW5 when TWC made me dependant on more than the Google Forums.

As a former TWC enthusiast who made the jump, I know it hurts a little (OK perhaps a lot), but mostly it was the need to learn new ideas and concepts, and that is what I thrive in.

I appreciate your contributions to TWC and consider them important, but at some point we need to jump from petrol/Gas to Electric. But we always want to service our antiques and some people will always remain enthusiasts of TWC. 

Regards

Tony

[Birthe C]

I love and use TW5 now, but I still have quite some TWClassics. I do not love them less. I am glad Yakov is keeping it useful for us.

Now one thing is for sure. TWclassic is much smaller than TW5. If I tried to use the same amount of plugins, language plugin and all that - I would not be able to have nearly as many notes in my TW5 and still have it running well enough for my patience or at all.

Birthe

[TiddlyTweeter]

Mat wrote (lightly edited by me)...

Can I ask what makes you ... stick with TWC instead of switching to TW5? What is it that you and the TWC community sees that Jeremy did not see when he evidently said that TWC is not a good enough system and it needs a complete revamp?

I think that is a category error. Mixing up future changes with current perfectly good function.

It a serious modern disease to think "we HAVE to move on."

Historically the Hedgehogs of moderate "it works already" always do better than the Foxes of enticement.

My two swords.

TT

[Mat]

 TiddlyTweeter wrote:

Mat wrote (lightly edited by me)...

Can I ask what makes you ... stick with TWC instead of switching to TW5? What is it that you and the TWC community sees that Jeremy did not see when he evidently said that TWC is not a good enough system and it needs a complete revamp?

I think that is a category error. Mixing up future changes with current perfectly good function.

So maybe the question should go to the chief architect, i.e why he evidently did not think it was "a perfectly good solution". If the planned discussion between Yakov and Jeremy takes place, I hope this topic could be discussed. What's possible, what is not possible with the two systems. Why it makes sense to abandon TWC and why it makes sense to have it stick around.

BTW, I hope this can be discussed without feelings. Feelings are totally irrelevant to this and - if anything - can be detrimental to the issue. If you come to a new software you don't want praises for it because "we have invested so much money/feelings/sweat into it", you want to know what it can do for you. How good it is.

<:-)

[TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mat

BTW, I hope this can be discussed without feelings.

I like you. Feeling does comes into it for me. I'm happy to jostle with you, x

Friendly tussle. Yes?

I'm currently thinking about how to reply without trashing your point.

TT, x 

[TiddlyTweeter]

Mat wrote:

 TiddlyTweeter wrote:

Mat wrote (lightly edited by me)...

Can I ask what makes you ... stick with TWC instead of switching to TW5? What is it that you and the TWC community sees that Jeremy did not see when he evidently said that TWC is not a good enough system and it needs a complete revamp?

I think that is a category error. Mixing up future changes with current perfectly good function.

So maybe the question should go to the chief architect, i.e why he evidently did not think it was "a perfectly good solution".

My point was they are DIFFERENT THINGS. The Architect will not say TWC was bad, in exactly the same way he will say TW5 has problems. 

Get my point? Faults are not the issue. Everything IS faulty.

Logically the PAST achievements in TWC SUBSIST (continue) and WORK. Well. Very well.

That JR wanted to do a NEW TiddlyWiki 5 s NOT an implying that achievements in TWC are intrinsically "inferior". 

Merely he was wanting to do something different. Certainly expanding on. Likely broader. 

But that is NOT anything to do with value of WHAT existed before. Which should be judged only on its own merits.

What I think WRONG in your comments is an implication that somehow TWC's are not, actually, perfectly functional, nice things. 

But truth is ..., 

• They work. 
• They do the job. 
• WHAT is to dislike?

Best wishes

TT

[Birthe C]

Mat,

I think as the years went by with TW classic, there were lots of thoughts and ideas. Some could be realised in that frame, others not so easy or not at all. The thoughts went towards a new version, now with a lot of experience and totally rewritten. Kind of we sometimes read discussion of the future and a version TWX. We cannot know what the future hold.

I can easily be mistaken, but I think it is easier to get started using TW5, that is was to start using TWclassic.

Birthe

[Mat]

TiddlyTweeter wrote:

I like you. Feeling does comes into it for me. I'm happy to jostle with you, x

Friendly tussle. Yes?

I like you too, as should be obvious, but this still doesn't have anything to do with TWC vs TW5 :-)

Anyhoo... if there is a discussion between Yakov and Jeremy, I hope the pros and cons of the systems can be discussed and the reason why there was a need to create TW5.

Just a note, picking up on what Birthe said; One day there will hopefully be yet another total rework that solves some of the unfixable weaknesses and flaws that TW5 has. TW5 will still work but it will continue to "feature" those weaknesses. One thing that certainly contributes to accumulation of flaws is TWs fairly strict backward compatibility ambition. 

<:-)

[Birthe C]

Mat,

Anyhoo... if there is a discussion between Yakov and Jeremy, I hope the pros and cons of the systems can be discussed and the reason why there was a need to create TW5.

 That was one of the suggestions for a hangout and didn't that kind of start out this discussion?

 One thing that certainly contributes to accumulation of flaws is TWs fairly strict backward compatibility ambition.

Yes and many people hacking to get, what we did not think we could have. Loving tiddlywiki seems to be a kind of narcotic. Dependency and constant craving for more. ;-) . The strange thing is that we are constantly spoiled with more choices and possibilities.

Birthe

[Yakov]

Hi Tony

Here are some personal observations to consider;

• In TWC I found my self dependant on others releasing new versions, rather than in TW5 I can use wiki text to solve almost anything.
• I used to go to Erics tiddlytools and the recent tab regularly

 Do you mean that on TW5 you are not using plugins much?

• I was starting to find TWC more fragile and had a few disasters.

I believe this is more or less in the past, but let me know if you have new issues.

• Perhaps you have improved the saving for TWC but I now use Timimi, tw-receiver and node server implementations, is TWC as rich in these?

I'm not familiar with tw-reciever, but yes, Timimi for FF works with TWC, and we have nw.js saver from Okido, node saver from James, MainTiddlySaver in PHP from me and some others. The only thing that somewhat bothers me is the increase of restrictions on Android 10+ where they forbid apps like Server for PHP or Tiddloid (so that donmor had to create Tiddloid Lite which doesn't support TWC yet). I guess, changing TWC core saving engine so that it's closer to TW5 will allow to use Tiddloid Lite but I'm not sure that Android devs won't restrict things further.

And also in the future, creating a transparent design (ideally common for TWC and TW5) is vital because without it all that we'll get is more "savers" with "some additional features" instead of an ecosystem of adaptors where each implements the same set of features like saving images on disk, backing up in certain schemes, loading external files etc – hence it's difficult to promise additional features that require more IO for TW as a whole.

• I now feel I can do almost anything in TW5 when TWC made me dependant on more than the Google Forums.

Good for you, I guess (although it's not totally clear what you mean, may be the same as above, no need for plugins).
 

I appreciate your contributions to TWC and consider them important, but at some point we need to jump from petrol/Gas to Electric. But we always want to service our antiques and some people will always remain enthusiasts of TWC. 

Well, gas, electric and antiques are metaphors, one can't discuss much about those in a constructive way. Those who needed to migrate and who can, they have migrated, what can I add?

Best regards,
Yakov.

[TonyM]

Yakov,

As I said, I believe TWC should be maintained at a minimum and its great its getting more attenton.

 

 Do you mean that on TW5 you are not using plugins much?

I do yous particular ones quite a bit, however when there is no plugin for an idea I have its much easier for me to build my own solution with wikitext, Macros etc... without touching JS

 

• I was starting to find TWC more fragile and had a few disasters.

I believe this is more or less in the past, but let me know if you have new issues.

Thanks, but a recent return to TWC showed me how much I had unlearned. But I am glad you are there. I may be wrong, but some of the fragility related to its architecture, but perhaps my own knowledge has developed since.

 

• I now feel I can do almost anything in TW5 when TWC made me dependant on more than the Google Forums.

Good for you, I guess (although it's not totally clear what you mean, may be the same as above, no need for plugins).

With TWC I was much more dependant on plugins and other authors, now I can role my own a lot easier. The hackability and technology options are greater in TW5 unless there was a major revolution in TWC when I was not looking. There tends to be less interdependence, and clashes between plugins

I have moved on, but respect the the continued use of TWC by those that do, I endevor every day to test and Question TW5 and promote improvements to expand is capabilities, adding a lot my self, much to be published by me sooner of later. I can only invest my obsession in one platform, the most open I know.

Regards

Tony