Demo: Proposal for slight visual changes to getting started tiddler

[Riz]

https://ibnishak.github.io/Tesseract/demo/docs.html

I am talking about the visual changes to the "GettingStarted" tiddler only. Not the other slight modifications made.

I was thinking if it would be appropriate to make a PR for this. It is responsive - so mobile users won't have any issues. But it is some amount of work. So instead of doing the whole thing and later understanding that why such a change cannot be merged, I thought I will create a minimum viable demo and see if it could be integrated.

The check-boxes on the side  -  for selecting OS and Browser - works like normal check-boxes. Which means multiple selection is possible.  So new users can see if there are save methods that works in all the major platforms they work in. The cards will rearrange based on the combined selection. ie - If you check windows, Linux, mac and Firefox - it will show you methods that is common to these platforms.

Other major change is the big green button is now an electric blue. Since TW5 follows a blue theme - it makes more sense the download button is a variation of blue. There is enough panache in that button to attract attention to it I guess.

Also we can set the Community Resources for follow the same card pattern.

Sincerely,

Riz

[Mark S.]

That looks nice!

I wonder, is it possible to detect the OS during boot-up and set the default buttons accordingly?

The reason I ask is that most software that I download does exactly this: It presents a menu that attempts to steer me towards whatever platform that I'm currently on.

Based on questions in the forums, it appears that users easily ignore the warning triangle about not saving with the file save menu. I'm thinking that a screen shot of the file save menu with a slash and circle over it might convey the message more readily. In fact, it might make sense to have it at the top of the "Getting Started" tiddler to make the saving "problem" clearer, before explaining the solutions. The whole idea of needing a special approach to saving is going to be new to most people.

[Riz]

I wonder, is it possible to detect the OS during boot-up and set the default buttons accordingly?

The reason I ask is that most software that I download does exactly this: It presents a menu that attempts to steer me towards whatever platform that I'm currently on.

This is possible. Create an startup-action tiddler that sets os and browser using information from info tiddlers

 

Based on questions in the forums, it appears that users easily ignore the warning triangle about not saving with the file save menu. I'm thinking that a screen shot of the file save menu with a slash and circle over it might convey the message more readily. In fact, it might make sense to have it at the top of the "Getting Started" tiddler to make the saving "problem" clearer, before explaining the solutions. The whole idea of needing a special approach to saving is going to be new to most people.

 My plan is to ask Mohammad to make a PR for the alerts in his shiraz plugin to style the alerts and tips. It catches attention more effectively - being a colored block

[Riz]

Unrelated QN: Is there a particular reason as to why Bob is not listed among the saver methods?

[TonyM]

The browser sniffer plugin retrieves browser information for the purpose see core plugins.

Always provide an other button.

Regards
Tony

[Riz]

Always provide an other button.

You mean for OS? Is there any known and working savers for other OS? For eg, have anyone tested tw5 in chrome OS or  Firefox OS?

[Riz]

Always provide an other button.

[TonyM]

Riz,

My answer was an answer to Marks

I wonder, is it possible to detect the OS during boot-up and set the default buttons accordingly?

 

You mean for OS? Is there any known and working savers for other OS? For eg, have anyone tested tw5 in chrome OS or  Firefox OS?

The download button is the same for all downloads but the options for different savers can be presented according to the browser they are on eg timimi for Chrome and FF

Regards

Tony

[Hubert]

Hi Riz,

Thanks for sharing. I like your demo, it looks fresher.

I agree it would be great if Mohammad's alerts and tips made it to the core, they would bring a more attractive, modern look.

Thanks,

Hubert

[Hubert]

Hi Mark,

I wonder, is it possible to detect the OS during boot-up and set the default buttons accordingly?

Yes, it's possible. I use TW on Android, Windows and ChromeOS and have the following rudimentary solution that works well, no plugins required.

Data is read from $:/info/url/full on startup and searched for the following keywords that always occur in the full URL depending on the OS:

Android = emulated
ChromeOS = chronos
Windows = ///

Steps to recreate:

1. Create a tiddler tagged $:/tags/StartupAction and paste this into its text field:

<$list filter="[{$:/info/url/full}search:title[///]limit[1]]">
<$action-setfield $tiddler="current_OS" $field="text" $value="Windows"/>
</$list>

<$list filter="[{$:/info/url/full}search:title[chronos]limit[1]]">
<$action-setfield $tiddler="current_OS" $field="text" $value="ChromeOS"/>
</$list>

<$list filter="[{$:/info/url/full}search:title[emulated]limit[1]]">
<$action-setfield $tiddler="current_OS" $field="text" $value="Android"/>
</$list>

2. Customise your TW depending on the OS using $reveal widgets or anything else you seem fit based on the name of the OS stored in the tiddler current_OS.

I'm not sure whether a consistent URL keyword can be found on Apple devices as well, I assume there could be.

Just my two cents, maybe someone will find this solution useful.

Thanks,

Hubert

[bimlas]

I really like the idea because it makes it clearer to beginners what to choose from. I would add one option (although it depends on the tags given to tiddlers of the savers): a distinction should be made between the single file and Node.js savers.

[Rizwan Ishak]

Yeah. That is something I wanted too. I thought about it like -

With Tiddlywiki you can choose to save your notes in one of the following.

1. All your notes in a single HTML file which you can carry and  open in any browser 

2. Each of your notes in a separate text file with embedded metadata which you can serve using a Node.js server. 

On Wed, 6 May 2020, 15:33 bimlas, <bimba....@gmail.com> wrote:

I really like the idea because it makes it clearer to beginners what to choose from. I would add one option (although it depends on the tags given to tiddlers of the savers): a distinction should be made between the single file and Node.js savers.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/tiddlywiki/HVy7RtLRZrM/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/5aa35753-db4b-4266-8372-405806dc8224%40googlegroups.com.

[bimlas]

Categorization can sometimes be misleading: for example, while Ruby Saver appears among Android’s choices, you don’t really have to run it on Android. Instead of a single file / Node.js, maybe we should make some distinction like "offline", "online and offline", "online only" (such as TiddlySpot).

[Rizwan Ishak]

The idea is to give the user what all can he use depending on his platform, even if it is a little tough to setup. Ruby Server can be setup with termux in android. So a ruby developer using windows and Android might want to see that.

My general idea of saver methods are to classify them to following categories

1. Browser extensions

2. Servers - Node.js, TiddlyServer, Ruby server, WebDAV server, PHP and so on.

3. Apps - TiddlyDesktop, Bob, Tiddloid, Quine

4. Cloud savers - Noteself, Git savers, Tiddlyspot..

5. Inbuilt : Download saver, Emergency export.

However, these are only possible in corresponding Getting Started tiddlers. 

My idea of this visual change was this principle: Do not scare little children and new users. Give them something they know - like their OS and their browser. This will give them a sense of control. 

We will discuss the textual changes to documentation in an entirely different thread or GitHub. 

On Wed, 6 May 2020, 15:39 bimlas, <bimba....@gmail.com> wrote:

Categorization can sometimes be misleading: for example, while Ruby Saver appears among Android’s choices, you don’t really have to run it on Android. Instead of a single file / Node.js, maybe we should make some distinction like "offline", "online and offline", "online only" (such as TiddlySpot).

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/tiddlywiki/HVy7RtLRZrM/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/13f3fe18-7544-43f6-af77-41f26e08d123%40googlegroups.com.

[Mat]

Riz wrote:

The idea is to give the user what all can he use depending on his platform, 

.... 

My general idea of saver methods are to classify them to following categories

I think you're 100% on the right path in your reasoning. You have both the know-how and the aesthetic sense so please continue to push forward on this newcomer-roadblock.

Minor: The rounded corners in the demo. If you show them to PMario he will bring out his shotgun ;-)

<:-)

[Rizwan Ishak]

Hi Mat

I think you're 100% on the right path in your reasoning. You have both the know-how and the aesthetic sense so please continue to push forward on this newcomer-roadblock.

Thank you. Will be only glad to contribute. Keep giving your inputs

Minor: The rounded corners in the demo. If you show them to PMario he will bring out his shotgun ;-)

border-radius property has 97.5% global coverage according to caniuse. Is there a particular reason this is frowned upon?

[Mat]

Riz wrote:

Minor: The rounded corners in the demo. If you show them to PMario he will bring out his shotgun ;-)

border-radius property has 97.5% global coverage according to caniuse. Is there a particular reason this is frowned upon?

I'll leave the question to fellow PMario ;-)

<:-)

[Mohammad]

A million thanks Riz,

 I see you are very active and productive these days and I like to thank you for all your great stuff.

Minor comment:

1. There is python server not documented see here: https://kookma.github.io/TW-Scripts/#Easy%20local%20saving%20with%20Python

2. I think at the beginning one should select between single file and sever working mode

2. When you select the os and browser your results are some links, those links are confusing and I think each should have an instruction or howoto for installing the tools.

A very very small comment (ignore for now): the design colors, etc.. should be compatible with the theme, so why not to use a better landing page!

--Mohammad

[Rizwan Ishak]

1. There is python server not documented see here: https://kookma.github.io/TW-Scripts/#Easy%20local%20saving%20with%20Python

Technically this is documented - in the sense that it is a WebDAV server. But I get what you are saying. We need to document more and more practical examples of servers that accept PUT savers. There are several readymade packages that do this too. For example, in python, try this package using pip.

https://wsgidav.readthedocs.io/en/latest/

Start the server from any folder containing tiddlywiki and you are set.

There is caddy server for golang. I am sure there are npm packages too. 

2. I think at the beginning one should select between single file and sever working mode

Yeah. But I am not getting into changing the actual documentation now. Just the way it currently looks. 

2. When you select the os and browser your results are some links, those links are confusing and I think each should have an instruction or howoto for installing the tools.

You mean each of the saver methods should have more detailed instructions? Yeah, ideally each of those links should start from scratch. We could ask people with experience to submit detailed instructions from scratch for each of those links, collate them and keep the common instructions use the same words. 

A very very small comment (ignore for now): the design colors, etc.. should be compatible with the theme, so why not to use a better landing page!

There are already efforts underway to do that by some community members. I am sure they are doing a great job. It is a huge project, taking weeks. I ll leave them to that and wait patiently to what they come up with.

Ideally the entire TW5 should be redesigned with a modern theme so that we don't need a landing page at all. Most wikis use their final look as their landing page too. 

However these are big decisions. I am more into making small meaningful changes that will help new users and fixing some outdated documentation.

[Mohammad]

Riz,

On Wednesday, May 6, 2020 at 5:01:22 PM UTC+4:30, Riz wrote:

1. There is python server not documented see here: https://kookma.github.io/TW-Scripts/#Easy%20local%20saving%20with%20Python

Technically this is documented - in the sense that it is a WebDAV server. But I get what you are saying. We need to document more and more practical examples of servers that accept PUT savers. There are several readymade packages that do this too. For example, in python, try this package using pip.

https://wsgidav.readthedocs.io/en/latest/

Nice! I will add this to TW-Scripts. In my opinion the successful solution even from one category worth to be documented

BUT I totally agree with you for wizard you need clear straight forward solution and not many from one category.

Start the server from any folder containing tiddlywiki and you are set.

There is caddy server for golang. I am sure there are npm packages too. 

Yep! 

2. I think at the beginning one should select between single file and sever working mode

Yeah. But I am not getting into changing the actual documentation now. Just the way it currently looks. 

I think it will be very helpful to instruct the new user! 

2. When you select the os and browser your results are some links, those links are confusing and I think each should have an instruction or howoto for installing the tools.

You mean each of the saver methods should have more detailed instructions? Yeah, ideally each of those links should start from scratch. We could ask people with experience to submit detailed instructions from scratch for each of those links, collate them and keep the common instructions use the same words. 

True! I even think all tiddlers are used to document the saving solution on tiddlywiki.com  should follow the same rule and have enough instruction to install the tool! BUT yes, the relevant people should do this!

A very very small comment (ignore for now): the design colors, etc.. should be compatible with the theme, so why not to use a better landing page!

There are already efforts underway to do that by some community members. I am sure they are doing a great job. It is a huge project, taking weeks. I ll leave them to that and wait patiently to what they come up with.

Yes, I know! 

[PMario]

Hi Riz,

I'm in favor of your approach, to make the "list of possible savers" more accessible for new users.

Let's put the styling side of things out of the way at the beginning ;)

I think, the first question / checkbox should be

 - basic savers

 - advanced savers

... The rest should stay as it is.

Basic savers should be:

 - Download

 - Emergency

The rest should already be categorized as "advanced"

The goal should be, that there are as view as possible solutions visible at a time. ... BUT ... all the possibilities should be listed at least once.

just some thoughts.

mario

[Rizwan Ishak]

Download and Emergency saver qn only makes sense in context of single file tiddlywikis, right? So shouldn't the user be asked to choose that first?

Again, ideally the first thing user should view is a feature comparison table between advanced savers. But this would require a discussion on what features should be considered for comparison.

This is merely a demo of visual upgrade to the existing GettingStarted tiddler. 

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/tiddlywiki/HVy7RtLRZrM/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/56562763-2ff1-4947-9393-ecd809e54e3f%40googlegroups.com.

[Diego Mesa]

I think the only "Basic" entry level way to get started with TW should be TiddlyDesktop. This handles everything well for a new user who wants to quickly try TW for a few days and install nothing else, or read nothing else.

The "advanced/minimal" can be the empty+any saving mechanism, and the "advanced/full" can be a node installation.

On Wednesday, May 6, 2020 at 9:11:04 AM UTC-5, Riz wrote:

Download and Emergency saver qn only makes sense in context of single file tiddlywikis, right? So shouldn't the user be asked to choose that first?

Again, ideally the first thing user should view is a feature comparison table between advanced savers. But this would require a discussion on what features should be considered for comparison.

This is merely a demo of visual upgrade to the existing GettingStarted tiddler. 

On Wed, 6 May 2020, 19:30 PMario, <pmar...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Riz,

I'm in favor of your approach, to make the "list of possible savers" more accessible for new users.

Let's put the styling side of things out of the way at the beginning ;)

I think, the first question / checkbox should be

 - basic savers

 - advanced savers

... The rest should stay as it is.

Basic savers should be:

 - Download

 - Emergency

The rest should already be categorized as "advanced"

The goal should be, that there are as view as possible solutions visible at a time. ... BUT ... all the possibilities should be listed at least once.

just some thoughts.

mario

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/tiddlywiki/HVy7RtLRZrM/unsubscribe.

To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to tiddl...@googlegroups.com.

[Sylvain Naudin]

It's going to be tricky to get everyone to agree, it looks like ^-^'

I agree with Mohammad's opinion so that in the layout we chooses as a preliminary between the official version of TW: standalone or node.js?

Then I like the idea of offering the OS and browser, but finally even if you check several boxes, it doesn't limit your choices enough (because almost everything works almost everywhere!).

So we could push suggestions from the community on 3 solutions in priority (but that goes back to the question of agreeing ^^')

As for TiddlyDesktop, I'm not sure it' s the ideal solution. It's still more than 100MB to download! So promoting only this solution in the first place would make me sad (even if I really like TD! Especially with the latest version where we can finally create new files directly!).

The basic mechanism works pretty well, as long as you know how your browser works (and unfortunately it's not always that way). But to really discover TW out of the box, it's still the fastest and without too much risk.

And thus to review the contents of a blank TW to propose the options directly from an empty one. I liked the idea of Rice also on a startup plugin that could be deleted once the first steps are done. To be taken in hand when you start.

Sylvain

[Riz]

It's going to be tricky to get everyone to agree, it looks like ^-^'

This!! This alone!

I am not at all touching the text beyond correcting a few spelling mistakes and categorization. Everything as it is now - but a visually upgraded version. Just some CSS and check-boxes.

We all have separate visions regarding saving. So the only possible solution regarding what the text of GettingStarted looks like is for each individual to create PRs for his vision and let Jeremy be the final arbitrator regarding what is best.

However we can all agree (I hope) it needs a style update for the list of saving methods and community resources. That is what I am doing here.

Sincerely,

Riz

[Riz]

Ain't nobody gonna tell me why Bob is not there with savers? Is there a particular reason? Or did the community collectively forgot to put it there because everyone knows Bob already. It would be amusing of the reason is that. Makes us wonder what other thing we all take for common knowledge is missing from documentation.

[Mohammad]

Riz,

 I cannot found TWexe in the list of single file saving on Windows

 See: https://kookma.github.io/TW-Scripts/#Twexe

--Mohammad

[Birthe C]

Riz,

I think it is because every discussion has had a tendency to mix the plugin with the exe version of Bob.

I also think I might not have been the only one having problems with some of the latest versions. The last version is very good, lots of good explanations. Still Jed might be overwhelmed with support questions. Just some thoughts.

My Favourites are Firefox with Timimi, BobExe and Tiddlyspot.

Birthe