Anybody fished Pass Run in SNP for bows?

[Ashley Frohwein]

I've seen some info online saying Pass Run in SNP holds wild bows, but have also seen that it's not a great fishery. Have any of you fished it before?

I'm trying to find places in SNP that might hold wild bows (I don't care about the SNP streams like hughes, rose, etc. that have stocked bows in the lower sections). Any ideas?

[ALarge]

Also interested in any intel, here. It's one of the only spring-fed limestoners in the park, so it makes sense. I have read in Harry Moore's book, Trout Fishing in Shenandoah National Park, that the population does exist albeit few and far between. Might be worth a weekend jaunt. 

[ALarge]

Sorry- I mean Harry Murray. I somehow came up with a hybrid of Steve Moore and Harry Murray; which, if such a person existed, would probably be the world's best fly fisherman. 

[Andrew Sarcinello]

Wish I had some intel to report. Is it actually limestone spring fed within the park boundary, or downstream where it hits the valley? If it is limestone all the way up in the headwaters, that increases the chances of it holding fish IMO. Other very small west slope streams have low water issues and suppressed trout populations from what I have read, but a good spring source might mitigate that.

[ALarge]

Should have bee more clear. To my knowledge, it's spring-fed downstream of the park. 

[cosgrov...@gmail.com]

I fished it last May after hearing reports of wild bows. I met a guy at the Rapidan who showed me pictures of the bows he had caught at Pass Run the previous week.

 I didn't see/catch any but caught a few nice sized brookies. Fished near the mouth of the river, near the park boundary. Pretty water, but tight casting. Did not fish the lower section, river looked like it hugged private land and the access never seemed great. 

On Tuesday, May 2, 2017 at 7:07:10 PM UTC-4, Andrew Sarcinello wrote:

[James Fletcher]

Was planning get out to the SNP this weekend, if the forecast of rain isn't too correct. Interested in checking this out - is it along Hwy 211?

best, 

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[cosgrov...@gmail.com]

Yes, along 211. I followed 211 for a while until I found a decent place to pullover. Almost to the SNP sign. 

The gent I originally met said there were plenty of pull offs for Pass Run in the valley on some of the private land, but I was in a time crunch so I fished the most accessible spot I could find which happened to be near SNP. Looking at google maps there are plenty of road and river crossings along 611 and 658. 

Watch out for ticks. 

On Wednesday, May 3, 2017 at 11:00:19 AM UTC-4, James Fletcher wrote:

Was planning get out to the SNP this weekend, if the forecast of rain isn't too correct. Interested in checking this out - is it along Hwy 211?

best, 

On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 9:43 AM, <cosgrov...@gmail.com> wrote:

I fished it last May after hearing reports of wild bows. I met a guy at the Rapidan who showed me pictures of the bows he had caught at Pass Run the previous week.

 I didn't see/catch any but caught a few nice sized brookies. Fished near the mouth of the river, near the park boundary. Pretty water, but tight casting. Did not fish the lower section, river looked like it hugged private land and the access never seemed great. 

On Tuesday, May 2, 2017 at 7:07:10 PM UTC-4, Andrew Sarcinello wrote:

Wish I had some intel to report.  Is it actually limestone spring fed within the park boundary, or downstream where it hits the valley?  If it is limestone all the way up in the headwaters, that increases the chances of it holding fish IMO. Other very small west slope streams have low water issues and suppressed trout populations from what I have read, but a good spring source might mitigate that.

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[Ashley Frohwein]

Very interested in reports. Hopefully the water won't be too high.

[James Fletcher]

many thanks!

On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 12:39 PM, <cosgrov...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes, along 211. I followed 211 for a while until I found a decent place to pullover. Almost to the SNP sign. 

The gent I originally met said there were plenty of pull offs for Pass Run in the valley on some of the private land, but I was in a time crunch so I fished the most accessible spot I could find which happened to be near SNP. Looking at google maps there are plenty of road and river crossings along 611 and 658. 

Watch out for ticks. 

On Wednesday, May 3, 2017 at 11:00:19 AM UTC-4, James Fletcher wrote:

Was planning get out to the SNP this weekend, if the forecast of rain isn't too correct. Interested in checking this out - is it along Hwy 211?

best, 

On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 9:43 AM, <cosgrov...@gmail.com> wrote:

I fished it last May after hearing reports of wild bows. I met a guy at the Rapidan who showed me pictures of the bows he had caught at Pass Run the previous week.

 I didn't see/catch any but caught a few nice sized brookies. Fished near the mouth of the river, near the park boundary. Pretty water, but tight casting. Did not fish the lower section, river looked like it hugged private land and the access never seemed great. 

On Tuesday, May 2, 2017 at 7:07:10 PM UTC-4, Andrew Sarcinello wrote:

Wish I had some intel to report.  Is it actually limestone spring fed within the park boundary, or downstream where it hits the valley?  If it is limestone all the way up in the headwaters, that increases the chances of it holding fish IMO. Other very small west slope streams have low water issues and suppressed trout populations from what I have read, but a good spring source might mitigate that.

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[Andrew Sarcinello]

Ashley, flows should be ok. A stream that small will drop very quickly.

That's awesome that it appears there really are wild bows there! I personally wouldn't mind a little bit more variety in the SNP streams. Though it's hard to say which native trout fishery is worth compromising to create that variety.

[Morgan Cosgrove]

I am also interested in reports. I'm assuming the bows are lower in the valley. The guy I met had multiple pics of wild bows and swore they were from Pass Run. I didn't see diddly, but I'm optimistic. 

On Thursday, May 4, 2017 at 10:16:53 AM UTC-4, James Fletcher wrote:

many thanks!

On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 12:39 PM, <cosgrov...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes, along 211. I followed 211 for a while until I found a decent place to pullover. Almost to the SNP sign. 

The gent I originally met said there were plenty of pull offs for Pass Run in the valley on some of the private land, but I was in a time crunch so I fished the most accessible spot I could find which happened to be near SNP. Looking at google maps there are plenty of road and river crossings along 611 and 658. 

Watch out for ticks. 

On Wednesday, May 3, 2017 at 11:00:19 AM UTC-4, James Fletcher wrote:

Was planning get out to the SNP this weekend, if the forecast of rain isn't too correct. Interested in checking this out - is it along Hwy 211?

best, 

On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 9:43 AM, <cosgrov...@gmail.com> wrote:

I fished it last May after hearing reports of wild bows. I met a guy at the Rapidan who showed me pictures of the bows he had caught at Pass Run the previous week.

 I didn't see/catch any but caught a few nice sized brookies. Fished near the mouth of the river, near the park boundary. Pretty water, but tight casting. Did not fish the lower section, river looked like it hugged private land and the access never seemed great. 

On Tuesday, May 2, 2017 at 7:07:10 PM UTC-4, Andrew Sarcinello wrote:

Wish I had some intel to report.  Is it actually limestone spring fed within the park boundary, or downstream where it hits the valley?  If it is limestone all the way up in the headwaters, that increases the chances of it holding fish IMO. Other very small west slope streams have low water issues and suppressed trout populations from what I have read, but a good spring source might mitigate that.

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[Morgan Cosgrove]

I agree with the variety. As much as I love brookies, it's a welcomed treat to catch other wild trout around the SNP streams. 

[Ashley Frohwein]

were the wild bows in the pics of any decent size? 

[James Fletcher]

Curious - what were the size of the bows in the photos? Decent size?

Agree with variety sentiment. If there were so big brookies, then I'd be content - spotted one on the Rapidan about .5 mile on the trail up the parking...he was a smart fish though...

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[Greggory DiSalvo]

I will quadruple the sentiment about variety, although I TRULY love brookies.  I do find myself exploring the few streams with browns more and more.  Just because you didn't see the bows, doesn't mean they are not there.  I've fished streams that I've caught browns before and not see a single one.  I once caught only browns and the next time only brookies on the same stream.  this makes for fun fishing IMO.  

On Monday, May 1, 2017 at 1:51:35 PM UTC-4, Ashley Frohwein wrote:

[Morgan Cosgrove]

Big Brookies would be fun, ie the Rapidan Steelhead. 

Nothing too big, I'd say the 6-8inch side. I was still pretty impressed to see wild bows anywhere near SNP. Until that day I'd never heard Pass Run. It's a pretty little stream, tight casting and access is very limited. 

On Thursday, May 4, 2017 at 1:58:44 PM UTC-4, James Fletcher wrote:

Curious - what were the size of the bows in the photos? Decent size?

Agree with variety sentiment. If there were so big brookies, then I'd be content - spotted one on the Rapidan about .5 mile on the trail up the parking...he was a smart fish though...

On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 11:29 AM, Morgan Cosgrove <cosgrov...@gmail.com> wrote:

I agree with the variety. As much as I love brookies, it's a welcomed treat to catch other wild trout around the SNP streams. 

On Thursday, May 4, 2017 at 11:02:02 AM UTC-4, Andrew Sarcinello wrote:

Ashley, flows should be ok. A stream that small will drop very quickly.

That's awesome that it appears there really are wild bows there! I personally wouldn't mind a little bit more variety in the SNP streams. Though it's hard to say which native trout fishery is worth compromising to create that variety.

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[Yambag Nelson]

I don't want wild rainbows anywhere near the wild brookie streams.  Last thing Shenandoah needs is to end up like smoky mountain NP.

[Bobby Davis]

Rapidan Steelhead?

[Dalton Terrell]

We should probably stock a few a few streams in SNP with brown trout, and to keep it interesting, we should also place some eastern brown snakes and brown bears around these streams. While we're at it, we might as well stock some brown dinosaurs, no harm in turning Shenandoah National Park into Jurassic Park.

With that, my TurbineBlade impersonation is over...

Alternatively, we could preserve one of the few areas left in the state with mostly native species as it is.

Dalton

[Richard Farino]

I was totally getting ready to write that I wholeheartedly disagree until I realized that you were writing in the Genecasm font.

No browns should be stocked anywhere near Shenandoah in my personal opinion.  The northern Appalachian strain of brook trout should be preserved and the fact that brown and brook trout can hybridize is my reasoning, especially in national parks.

Outside of the park is a different story, but as we know, trout migrate when they can to waterways more suited to their needs, as seen when fishing some of the rivers at the lowest end of the park boundaries and finding species other than chubs and brook trout.

R

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[Andrew Sarcinello]

Well like I said, I'm not gonna volunteer any ideas for which stream would be worth messing with. But I do like the challenge posed by brown trout, and wish there were more than one or two streams in the park that I could fish for them for a change of pace after hours of brookies mindlessly destroying dry flies. Conway has a good population, but there are always other people fishing it.

[Andrew Sarcinello]

Brown and brook trout hybrids (tiger trout) are sterile and cannot reproduce.

[Bobby Davis]

Tiger trout (brook and Brown hybrids) are sterile so there would be no diluting the gene pool so to speak.  Wild tigers are extremely rare too because while both Brown's and Brooks are fall spawners they don't spawn at exactly the same time and a fertilized hybrid egg has a pretty low survival rate on top of that.  The bigger concern is that Brown trout have an easier time getting bigger than brook trout and could out compete them if the stream is large enough.  But I also agree with the keep all other salmonids out of SNP at all costs approach.  With climate change set to decimate trout fisheries in the coming decades, keeping brook trout strongholds in tact is important.  

On May 5, 2017 11:56 AM, "Richard Farino" <rfa...@gmail.com> wrote:

I was totally getting ready to write that I wholeheartedly disagree until I realized that you were writing in the Genecasm font.

No browns should be stocked anywhere near Shenandoah in my personal opinion.  The northern Appalachian strain of brook trout should be preserved and the fact that brown and brook trout can hybridize is my reasoning, especially in national parks.

Outside of the park is a different story, but as we know, trout migrate when they can to waterways more suited to their needs, as seen when fishing some of the rivers at the lowest end of the park boundaries and finding species other than chubs and brook trout.

R

From: Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders <tidal-potomac-fly-rodders@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Dalton Terrell <daltonb...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders <tidal-potomac-fly-rodders@googlegroups.com>
Date: Friday, May 5, 2017 at 11:40 AM
To: Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders <tidal-potomac-fly-rodders@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Re: Anybody fished Pass Run in SNP for bows?

We should probably stock a few a few streams in SNP with brown trout, and to keep it interesting, we should also place some eastern brown snakes and brown bears around these streams. While we're at it, we might as well stock some brown dinosaurs, no harm in turning Shenandoah National Park into Jurassic Park.

With that, my TurbineBlade impersonation is over...

Alternatively, we could preserve one of the few areas left in the state with mostly native species as it is.

Dalton

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[Bobby Davis]

There's plenty of streams in the area with Brown's if you want to fish for them.  

On May 5, 2017 12:07 PM, "Andrew Sarcinello" <andy...@gmail.com> wrote:

Well like I said, I'm not gonna volunteer any ideas for which stream would be worth messing with.  But I do like the challenge posed by brown trout, and wish there were more than one or two streams in the park that I could fish for them for a change of pace after hours of brookies mindlessly destroying dry flies.  Conway has a good population, but there are always other people fishing it.

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[Richard Farino]

Understand they’re sterile, but they still compete with a native species for resources.  I see Bobby Davis has also replied with a response.

Again, I’m not against stocking different species of trout in rivers and streams, especially if they’re not native to a region.  I cut my teeth fishing for rainbows and browns on the upper Delaware (greatest trout fishery in the east, by the way) and I understand how important the chance for a big 24” brown can be.  Incidentally they’ve been catching some monsters up there the last week.

I just don’t think it belongs in the Park.

R

From: Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders <tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Andrew Sarcinello <andy...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders <tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Friday, May 5, 2017 at 12:08 PM
To: Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders <tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Re: Anybody fished Pass Run in SNP for bows?

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[Greggory DiSalvo]

erm....This is awkward.  I was just kidding about wanting diversity?  

In all seriousness.  You all are absolutely right.  It is the very greed or always wanting more and neglecting what we have that leads to issues down the road.  I suppose I can drive elsewhere for a pull from a brown trout and keep the native streams native.   

[Andrew Sarcinello]

Apologies in advance for lack of quoting text, just firing off quick comments from my phone.

Bobby if you're willing to share (privately if you prefer) where I can find some wild browns other than Conway or Rose Rivers, I'd greatly appreciate it! I agree with your point about climate change.

Just want to be clear I was not advocating messing with any existing brook trout populations - just saying I would enjoy if there currently were a few more streams in the park with non-brook trout. As in, already messed with decades ago, like the Conway.

Getting back to Pass run though...A lot of times when you have a freestone headwater stream rolling off a mountain into a limestone valley, somewhere around that transition area the stream will sink underground in low flows. Don't know if that happens in this case but there could be a section like that which helps stop the rainbows from making it into the park section. In that case you might expect to find a few in the brookie section after sustained high water. I know of some streams in PA where this happens though usually with browns being the invaders.

[TurbineBlade]

Hey -- I've very, very happy with the tone here guys!  If you aren't sarcastic or cynical, you aren't trying.  

So, if I posted a picture to this forum of myself strangling a 20" Conway brown with dry hands, am I a jerk or just sage?

That may be a question for the philosophers --

Gene ("everything's ephemeral") TB

[TurbineBlade]

A better question might be "what is the best decision to make as an angler in the event that you catch 1-8" Conway brown trout?  ;)  

[Richard Farino]

One of my favorite fly fishing book titles EVER (although the content was less enjoyable than I had hoped) was “A jerk on one end.”  

To each his own.

R

From: Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders <tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of TurbineBlade <doubl...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders <tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Friday, May 5, 2017 at 2:30 PM
To: Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders <tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Re: Anybody fished Pass Run in SNP for bows?

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[James Fletcher]

Really enjoying this raggin' today at afternoon at work. Do we need to create an Experimental Stocking division within TPFR?

So, I'm gonna make a dash out to the SNP now on Sunday morning - anyone want to join/ ride with? 

...do I need to blow a conch shell? Shout Pass Run team assemble or something like that?

On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 2:37 PM, Richard Farino <rfa...@gmail.com> wrote:

One of my favorite fly fishing book titles EVER (although the content was less enjoyable than I had hoped) was “A jerk on one end.”  

To each his own.

R

From: Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders <tidal-potomac-fly-rodders@googlegroups.com> on behalf of TurbineBlade <doubl...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders <tidal-potomac-fly-rodders@googlegroups.com>
Date: Friday, May 5, 2017 at 2:30 PM
To: Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders <tidal-potomac-fly-rodders@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Re: Anybody fished Pass Run in SNP for bows?

Hey -- I've very, very happy with the tone here guys!  If you aren't sarcastic or cynical, you aren't trying.  

So, if I posted a picture to this forum of myself strangling a 20" Conway brown with dry hands, am I a jerk or just sage?

That may be a question for the philosophers --

Gene ("everything's ephemeral") TB

On Friday, May 5, 2017 at 12:44:48 PM UTC-4, Andrew Sarcinello wrote:

Apologies in advance for lack of quoting text, just firing off quick comments from my phone.

Bobby if you're willing to share (privately if you prefer) where I can find some wild browns other than Conway or Rose Rivers, I'd greatly appreciate it! I agree with your point about climate change.

Just want to be clear I was not advocating messing with any existing brook trout populations - just saying I would enjoy if there currently were a few more streams in the park with non-brook trout. As in, already messed with decades ago, like the Conway.

Getting back to Pass run though...A lot of times when you have a freestone headwater stream rolling off a mountain into a limestone valley, somewhere around that transition area the stream will sink underground in low flows. Don't know if that happens in this case but there could be a section like that which helps stop the rainbows from making it into the park section.  In that case you might expect to find a few in the brookie section after sustained high water. I know of some streams in PA where this happens though usually with browns being the invaders.

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[TurbineBlade]

If you're holding the conch, I gather from Mr. Golding that you are the one who gets to speak.  

Gene

On Friday, May 5, 2017 at 2:57:00 PM UTC-4, James Fletcher wrote:

Really enjoying this raggin' today at

 

afternoon at work. Do we need to create an Experimental Stocking division within TPFR?

So, I'm gonna make a dash out to the SNP now on Sunday morning - anyone want to join/ ride with? 

...do I need to blow a conch shell? Shout Pass Run team assemble or something like that?

On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 2:37 PM, Richard Farino <rfa...@gmail.com> wrote:

One of my favorite fly fishing book titles EVER (although the content was less enjoyable than I had hoped) was “A jerk on one end.”  

To each his own.

R

From: Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders <tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of TurbineBlade <doubl...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders <tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Friday, May 5, 2017 at 2:30 PM
To: Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders <tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Re: Anybody fished Pass Run in SNP for bows?

Hey -- I've very, very happy with the tone here guys!  If you aren't sarcastic or cynical, you aren't trying.  

So, if I posted a picture to this forum of myself strangling a 20" Conway brown with dry hands, am I a jerk or just sage?

That may be a question for the philosophers --

Gene ("everything's ephemeral") TB

On Friday, May 5, 2017 at 12:44:48 PM UTC-4, Andrew Sarcinello wrote:

Apologies in advance for lack of quoting text, just firing off quick comments from my phone.

Bobby if you're willing to share (privately if you prefer) where I can find some wild browns other than Conway or Rose Rivers, I'd greatly appreciate it! I agree with your point about climate change.

Just want to be clear I was not advocating messing with any existing brook trout populations - just saying I would enjoy if there currently were a few more streams in the park with non-brook trout. As in, already messed with decades ago, like the Conway.

Getting back to Pass run though...A lot of times when you have a freestone headwater stream rolling off a mountain into a limestone valley, somewhere around that transition area the stream will sink underground in low flows. Don't know if that happens in this case but there could be a section like that which helps stop the rainbows from making it into the park section.  In that case you might expect to find a few in the brookie section after sustained high water. I know of some streams in PA where this happens though usually with browns being the invaders.

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[Andrew Sarcinello]

Magic...conch...shell?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T411ZQlJ_PA

[James Fletcher]

doubles as a bear whistle, too

On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Andrew Sarcinello <andy...@gmail.com> wrote:

Magic...conch...shell?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T411ZQlJ_PA

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[TurbineBlade]

I also think that the SNP streams are unique and should be kept "brookie".  I have to imagine that early efforts to stock rainbows and browns in SNP was during the time when it was generally believed that the strength of an ecosystem was reflected by how many different species it supported.  

It makes you wonder in another 50 years what people will look back and say about the present.  My vote is "why did people stock rainbows and browns in accotink and holmes run and charge people a license fee to fish for them?"

Gene

On Friday, May 5, 2017 at 3:59:49 PM UTC-4, James Fletcher wrote:

doubles as a bear whistle, too

On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Andrew Sarcinello <andy...@gmail.com> wrote:

Magic...conch...shell?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T411ZQlJ_PA

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[ALarge]

Didn't make it to Pass Run this weekend, but I can confirm the continued existence of reviled wild browns in the Conway. 

[bryan....@gmail.com]

You don't know what you've got til it's gone. 

Sent from my iPhone

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