Overnight Brookie Trip Shenandoah

[Greggory DiSalvo]

Hi all, 

I've been a lurker here for a while and am wildly impressed by the vast base of knowledge in this community.  I have been planning on taking my dad out into the Shenandoah for an overnight brookie trip sometime late spring.  He has a questionable knee and doesn't really hike much.  I took a recon trip with a few friends a few weeks back to Big Run hoping to take him there.  I really liked it and the hike in was more than reasonable, but with the fire situation, I am not sure if the stream/environment will be in good shape later this spring (So sad).  I've spent a good amount of time taking day trip trouthikes to many of the different streams in the park but am looking for something a little more remote so we can leave tents/packs unattended without worry.  

Would love it if some of ya'll had a few suggestions!  I am thinking it would just be a one night trip where we hike in Saturday morning, find a campsite, hit the water, and then fish a bit in the morning before heading out.

Thanks in advance,

Gregg

[Danny Barrett]

Unsure of fire situation.  But the Rapidan has areas for camping, great fishing.  Some camp spots are very close to stream.  Only downside is it is a bit of a rough road.  I only trust it in a truck or SUV. 

Thanks,

Dan Barrett

dannyt...@gmail.com

(540)-222-8064

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[Andrew Sarcinello]

Most of the Rocky Mountain Run drainage has burned and the fire is steadily creeping through the rest of the Big Run drainage. No telling if the trails in the burn area will open once the fire eventually dies out. They may close it to all activity to allow a natural recovery (pure speculation on my part but I think it would make sense)

[Jeremy Dusina]

I second the Rapidan recommendation. I went up there this past Sunday and it was great. No signs of fire. Water a little low, but there were plenty of eager fish. I also second the SUV recommendation.

[Carl Z.]

How bad is the knee.  Even the Rapidan involves some rock scrambling, and on any given stream, the higher the gradient, the better the fishing, so the best fishing is in the roughest terrain.   However the fishing is good, which overcomes a lot. 

Carl

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[Greggory DiSalvo]

Thanks for the input ya'll!  I have had Rapidan circled for a while, but was hesitant because of crowds.  My understanding is it is one you must fish, but because of that, it tends to get a lot of pressure.  

Carl, His knee is not all that bad, ACL/MCL surgery a few years back, but he'd wear a brace.  He managed some quality scrambles that I'd compare to White Oak Canyon in NY last summer, but his knee was a tad sore at the end of the day. Im hoping I can find someplace where the hike out, after a long day of scrambling, is not all that tough on the joints.  This may not exist.  In terms of managing rock scrambles, I'm thinking with a wading pole  and slow approach, he should be fine. The didymo does worry me though.  I broke a rod after slipping on some on the conway.  

Gregg

[Jeff Greendyk]

Another option would be the upper Conway.  Your in the Rapidan Wildlife management area.  This borders the park.  If you have a truck or SUV you can park next to the stream at any one of the fire rings.  

Jeff

[TurbineBlade]

Nothing to see here folks!  Both of those places are crowded, overfished, and you're likely to step through someone's streamside toilet waste near the camp rings.  That's only if you don't strip your oil pan out trying to get there. 

As for skyline, it's fire and bears -- in that order.  The reason they revised their firearms policy is due to bear attacks (bears with fire).  You should carry at minimum a .44 mag to go anywhere out there -- https://www.nps.gov/shen/learn/management/lawsandpolicies.htm

Let me know if you need any more accurate information about fishing in the SNP. 

Gene

On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 at 6:50:01 AM UTC-4, Jeff Greendyk wrote:

[Dalton Terrell]

Gene,

Thanks for the link, I'd never read their WTF Policy.

But regarding the backpacking, it isn't really that necessary in Shenandoah with the park being long and skinny with top and bottom access, nothing is super remote. With that said, I take an annual backpacking trip out there to streams you won't see named here for the fun of it. Most places are open to back country camping in the park, check this link for off-limits locations, and pick just about any stream in the park. If you think your dad can handle coming up Big Run, he can handle about any of the trails out there.

Dalton

[Greggory DiSalvo]

Dalton, I made sure to try the southern hike in to Big Run which is pretty flat unlike the Northern hike down Big Run, but yes, I think he can handle wading most of the streams for sure.

On Monday, April 25, 2016 at 4:05:49 PM UTC-4, Greggory DiSalvo wrote:

[Ryan DiAndrea]

Is it really that bad with the bears out there?

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[Greggory DiSalvo]

For what it's worth, I've spent probably 20-30 nights in the park hiking over the past few years and have only seen one bear.  I still hang a bag from a tree and many of these hikes were winter.  I may scare bears before I see them since I'm a pole hiker and tend to be with a few others talking.  I'd honestly like to see a few more...but from a distance!

On Monday, April 25, 2016 at 4:05:49 PM UTC-4, Greggory DiSalvo wrote:

[Greg Feder]

Although not part of the WTF policy, perhaps the Alcohol Policy should be amended and appended to the WTF policy -- "In general, alcohol is permitted in Shenandoah National Park by those over 21 years of age....  Alcohol is prohibited in the Lower Rapidan area."   WTF?

Cheers (but not around a fire ring in the RWMA),

-- Greg

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From: Dalton Terrell <daltonb...@gmail.com>
To: Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders <tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 8:39 AM
Subject: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Re: Overnight Brookie Trip Shenandoah

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[Greg Feder]

Ryan --

I've seen some large, bearded gay men, but knowing Gene and his sense of humor, he just wants to keep the streams to himself. 

Cheers,

-- Greg

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From: Ryan DiAndrea <ryan.d...@gmail.com>
To: tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 10:15 AM
Subject: Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Re: Overnight Brookie Trip Shenandoah

Is it really that bad with the bears out there?

On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 8:07 AM, TurbineBlade <doubl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Nothing to see here folks!  Both of those places are crowded, overfished, and you're likely to step through someone's streamside toilet waste near the camp rings.  That's only if you don't strip your oil pan out trying to get there. 

As for skyline, it's fire and bears -- in that order.  The reason they revised their firearms policy is due to bear attacks (bears with fire).  You should carry at minimum a .44 mag to go anywhere out there -- https://www.nps.gov/shen/learn/management/lawsandpolicies.htm

Let me know if you need any more accurate information about fishing in the SNP. 

Gene

On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 at 6:50:01 AM UTC-4, Jeff Greendyk wrote:

Another option would be the upper Conway.  Your in the Rapidan Wildlife management area.  This borders the park.  If you have a truck or SUV you can park next to the stream at any one of the fire rings.  

Jeff

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[ALarge]

I was issued a misdemeanor summons for drinking a cold beer at my campsite in Rapidan WMA after a long day of fishing the Upper Conway. The don't mess around. While I was paying my fines on my way out, I spoke with others and it seems nearly all of us in the courtroom that day were fly fishermen who were confused by a sign at the entrance to the WMA that reads: "NO PUBLIC DISPLAY OF ALCOHOL". Which, to me, meant that I can't be walking from campsite to campsite or along the river with a beer in hand. Wrong. Why not just say, "NO ALCOHOL" or "NO CONSUMPTION OF ALCOHOL"? 

...Another commonality between the outlaw flyfishemen that day- we all were drinking IPAs. 

On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 at 10:49:00 AM UTC-4, Greg Feder wrote:

Ryan --

I've seen some large, bearded gay men, but knowing Gene and his sense of humor, he just wants to keep the streams to himself. 

Cheers,

-- Greg

---

From: Ryan DiAndrea <ryan.d...@gmail.com>
To: tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 10:15 AM
Subject: Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Re: Overnight Brookie Trip Shenandoah

Is it really that bad with the bears out there?

On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 8:07 AM, TurbineBlade <doubl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Nothing to see here folks!  Both of those places are crowded, overfished, and you're likely to step through someone's streamside toilet waste near the camp rings.  That's only if you don't strip your oil pan out trying to get there. 

As for skyline, it's fire and bears -- in that order.  The reason they revised their firearms policy is due to bear attacks (bears with fire).  You should carry at minimum a .44 mag to go anywhere out there -- https://www.nps.gov/shen/learn/management/lawsandpolicies.htm

Let me know if you need any more accurate information about fishing in the SNP. 

Gene

On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 at 6:50:01 AM UTC-4, Jeff Greendyk wrote:

Another option would be the upper Conway.  Your in the Rapidan Wildlife management area.  This borders the park.  If you have a truck or SUV you can park next to the stream at any one of the fire rings.  

Jeff

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[TurbineBlade]

;). 

We saw 7-8 black bears late last summer and into the .........(fall), out there.  All of them fled immediately upon seeing us. 

All kidding aside, if you enjoy fishing in bear country and do NOT want to be attacked, thank your local hunters.  The most dangerous large carnivores to humans are the ones which habituate to humans.  Contrary to popular opinion, all large carnivores will eventually consider humans as a potential food source -- they're carnivores.  Usually it begins tolerating human presence, and then moves on toward accepting food and "cute" things like licking you, and/or pulling on your clothing.   One of the best ways to keep them from ever beginning to habituate to humans is to routinely shoot them, and/or at them.  Hunters are great -- some of my favorite people, and I don't even hunt. 

Black bears are easily capable of killing any adult human, but attacks are incredibly rare. 

In the backwoods of SNP I feel more at peace than almost anywhere else.  I'd worry more about the black bears hanging around the various waysides, campgrounds, and other human structures with people present than the ones far out into the woods. 

Gene

On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 at 10:49:00 AM UTC-4, Greg Feder wrote:

Ryan --

I've seen some large, bearded gay men, but knowing Gene and his sense of humor, he just wants to keep the streams to himself. 

Cheers,

-- Greg

---

From: Ryan DiAndrea <ryan.d...@gmail.com>
To: tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 10:15 AM
Subject: Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Re: Overnight Brookie Trip Shenandoah

Is it really that bad with the bears out there?

On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 8:07 AM, TurbineBlade <doubl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Nothing to see here folks!  Both of those places are crowded, overfished, and you're likely to step through someone's streamside toilet waste near the camp rings.  That's only if you don't strip your oil pan out trying to get there. 

As for skyline, it's fire and bears -- in that order.  The reason they revised their firearms policy is due to bear attacks (bears with fire).  You should carry at minimum a .44 mag to go anywhere out there -- https://www.nps.gov/shen/learn/management/lawsandpolicies.htm

Let me know if you need any more accurate information about fishing in the SNP. 

Gene

On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 at 6:50:01 AM UTC-4, Jeff Greendyk wrote:

Another option would be the upper Conway.  Your in the Rapidan Wildlife management area.  This borders the park.  If you have a truck or SUV you can park next to the stream at any one of the fire rings.  

Jeff

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[Dalton Terrell]

Wow, I'd expect a true jury of fly fishing peers to nullify that law. It looks like the alcohol ban is a Virginia policy for the Wildlife Management Areas, and Shenandoah National Park isn't the one enforcing that. 

Dalton

[Yambag Nelson]

I see at least one almost every trip into the park.  Most I've seen was six in one weekend.  Most of them have been in or around the campgrounds.  I rarely see them hiking.  One time I did an the only way to get by it was to get about 25 feet away from it.  It was just laying there and acted like it didn't notice me but I did not like getting that close. 

On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 at 10:15:35 AM UTC-4, Ryan D wrote:

Is it really that bad with the bears out there?

On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 8:07 AM, TurbineBlade <doubl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Nothing to see here folks!  Both of those places are crowded, overfished, and you're likely to step through someone's streamside toilet waste near the camp rings.  That's only if you don't strip your oil pan out trying to get there. 

As for skyline, it's fire and bears -- in that order.  The reason they revised their firearms policy is due to bear attacks (bears with fire).  You should carry at minimum a .44 mag to go anywhere out there -- https://www.nps.gov/shen/learn/management/lawsandpolicies.htm

Let me know if you need any more accurate information about fishing in the SNP. 

Gene

On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 at 6:50:01 AM UTC-4, Jeff Greendyk wrote:

Another option would be the upper Conway.  Your in the Rapidan Wildlife management area.  This borders the park.  If you have a truck or SUV you can park next to the stream at any one of the fire rings.  

Jeff

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[TurbineBlade]

Yeah, I found that out too one day and was lucky to just be warned.  Their concern is probably that the entire area would otherwise fill up with a bunch of loud, drunk idiots who would likely trash the place and adversely affect other peoples' enjoyment of the area. 

That's the problem with laws like that -- they don't accommodate reasonable people doing something quietly and in moderation. 

Gene

On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 at 11:31:41 AM UTC-4, Dalton Terrell wrote:

[Brian]

don't forget the Coywolves...

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/11/111107-hybrids-coyotes-wolf-virginia-dna-animals-science/

[TurbineBlade]

Coyotes are actually in the same boat as other, larger carnivores despite their smaller size.  "Urban coyotes" which habituate to humans are a real problem in some of the western states in particular.  Google it --

Basically, the same things happens -- some individuals begin to show themselves during the daytime, gradually losing their fear of humans, etc.  They begin to associate with residential areas, observing things from a distance before moving in more closely.  Eventually domestic animals (cats/dogs) are attacked or killed, and then they will begin observing children playing in public areas, and you can guess the eventual outcome. 

There have been a lot of literature articles related to "destroying the wolf genetically" due to the same situation -- breeding with domestic dogs. 

Basically, the idea seems to be that due to genetic problems and/or the certainty of conflicts with humans, you really need an active hunting community and also people charged with removing problem animals from the population when they're identified.  Often this is thwarted in certain areas due to public perception of hunting and wildlife control, and also the myth that "they really aren't dangerous". 

Gene

[TurbineBlade]

An interesting article -- http://urbancoyoteresearch.com/coyote-conflicts-research-perspective

[Forrest Allen]

A little late to the thread, but may I ask where in the rules it states that alcohol is permitted in SNP? Does anyone have any stories of being hassled by park police for having an IPA while tying a stimulator on a tenkara rod by the campsite? 

Though the setting of the Rapidan is very pleasant and the fishing generally good, I wont be heading back there after my last experience which included an unfortunate run in with the "Conservation Police" while quietly sitting around a campfire. They "want everyone to enjoy the Rapidan WMA," but only if you drink Mr. Pibb out of sight, away from the road and stream. 

[Dalton Terrell]

Forrest, check this page on Shenandoah's Alcohol Policy, it's basically allowed almost anywhere in the park. Unfortunately, the Rapidan WMA is outside the park and managed by the State of Virginia for hunting, which is probably why they don't want alcohol around.

Dalton

[ALarge]

@Forrest Allen- It's been almost a year since my run-in with the fun police at Rapidan WMA. Was it Officer Simmons? 

[Andrew Sarcinello]

Not to hijack this, but is anyone planning to fish down there the weekend of June 18th? I'm doing an overnight trip with two friends and would like to avoid crossing paths with others as much as possible. Our location is TBD - feel free to send me a PM/email if you are planning to fish that weekend.

[Forrest Allen]

Officer Simmons and Officer Bullard were our team. They invited my girlfriend's friends and me back there any time to camp and fish, but I'll have to respectfully decline and never venture up the Rapidan Road again, unfortunately. Beautiful place, but unpleasant experience. 

Thus, I wont be in your way that weekend, Andrew. 

Forrest

[Alex Large]

Concidentally, this survey from VA DGIF just dropped into my mailbox. I left some comments about my Rapidan experience in the last step of the survey. Perhaps those who have had bad (or good) experiences there should share their story as well. http://s-8b6730-i.sgizmo.com/s3/i-0nmVG4iyNM0fz21rJ-1355243/?sguid=0nmVG4iyNM0fz21rJ

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[Andrew Sarcinello]

Thanks Forrest - Rapidan is not one of our top choices we are considering anyway (purely due to its popularity).