Illegal to wade Gravelly Point

[FlyTimesDC]

So last night I was fishing the outgoing tide at gravelly point around 2:30 am when a park officer called me out of the water saying the park closed at 12 (I've never heard of the inlet our outflow ever being closed but left without resistance). He then asked to see my license, which I promptly gave him, and we went back to his car. I'm pretty sure he was looking for any excuse to ticket me, because he then sat in his car for about 10 minutes reading up on ordinances and rules. When he returned, he gave me back my licenses and a $130 fine for "Entering the Potomac". Umm, what? I have a court date in June and plan on fighting this. There are no signs or anything else to indicate that A) wading is illegal in the inlet and B) that the inlet is closed at 12am. Curious to hear y'all's thoughts. I've heard of people being hassled by airport police at Gravelly but this is a tad ridiculous.

Thanks,

Remick

[Danny Barrett]

Never had issue there. But since students get instate licences in what ever state their college is.  Ive had issues with that in WV.  Good Luck in court

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[Rob Snowhite]

Did some research. Bottom of page 12. 
http://www.nps.gov/gwmp/parkmgmt/upload/REV0321_GWMP-Compendium.pdf

This has never been brought to my attention when dealing with the NPS. 
Sent from my iPhone

[Mike Bailey]

http://www.nps.gov/gwmp/parkmgmt/upload/REV0611_GWMPCompendium-6-20.PDF

[FlyTimesDC]

Thanks Rob. Looks like I might not really have much of case lol. I'm more upset at the prospect of losing one of the most accessible, fishy, and wadeable spots on the Potomac to be honest though. I'm not sure if there is a better place to consistently and safely target schoolies than an outgoing night tide at Gravelly.

On Thursday, May 30, 2013 10:15:06 AM UTC-4, Rob Snowhite wrote:

Did some research. Bottom of page 12. 
http://www.nps.gov/gwmp/parkmgmt/upload/REV0321_GWMP-Compendium.pdf

This has never been brought to my attention when dealing with the NPS. 
Sent from my iPhone

On May 30, 2013, at 10:08 AM, FlyTimesDC <Rsmo...@targetedvictory.com> wrote:

So last night I was fishing the outgoing tide at gravelly point around 2:30 am when a park officer called me out of the water saying the park closed at 12 (I've never heard of the inlet our outflow ever being closed but left without resistance). He then asked to see my license, which I promptly gave him, and we went back to his car. I'm pretty sure he was looking for any excuse to ticket me, because he then sat in his car for about 10 minutes reading up on ordinances and rules. When he returned, he gave me back my licenses and a $130 fine for "Entering the Potomac". Umm, what? I have a court date in June and plan on fighting this. There are no signs or anything else to indicate that A) wading is illegal in the inlet and B) that the inlet is closed at 12am. Curious to hear y'all's thoughts. I've heard of people being hassled by airport police at Gravelly but this is a tad ridiculous.

Thanks,

Remick

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[Rob Snowhite]

Maybe they were enforcing as it was dark, more of teaching a lesson on safety just as we got pulled out o ankle deep water at the Tidal Basin. Keep us posted. 

Sent from my iPhone

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[FlyTimesDC]

Would that ordinance make it illegal to wade the Duck Pond too?

[Jeffrey Silvan]

So I'm curious... Seeing Rob's and Mike's posts, it seems pretty clear it technically is illegal to wade at any time of the day at Gravelly, and at least a couple other locations we talk about here. Has anyone ever had any other issue there (or any of the other locations) during the day? 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tidal-potomac-fly-rodders/CABaYb1P86akUiw8wGwJmdv3YKjU%3DX%3D%2BHhO9XFSVQctj-T%3Do07A%40mail.gmail.com?hl=en-US.

[Rob Snowhite]

I've had two run-ins with police of the GWMP.

"put your ankle in the water again and I'll arrest you" was from a NPS Police officer last year at Chain Bridge

"fish on the dock again and I'll arrest you" was from an officer two years ago when I was fishing from the pier at Gravelly -which it states "No  ishing from docks" the 'f' is clearly gone but she didn't care. 

I saw some kids get pulled out of the falls on Difficult Run a few years ago on Labor Day weekend. They ended up giving an attitude to the cop so he went from a warning to writing all of them tickets. Punk teenagers! I always fished there when my friend went swimming in high school.

This all goes back to the other Rob who was pulled out of Roaches a few years back.

I'm hoping it was just a one time incident at Gravelly.

 

Rob Snowhite

---

From: Jeffrey Silvan <jeffre...@gmail.com>
To: tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Illegal to wade Gravelly Point

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tidal-potomac-fly-rodders/CANiFxBxQpFUdtPPoHQt4PpoxWFGWimM9nbB6C6k9Q9f-8LTUzg%40mail.gmail.com?hl=en-US.

[TurbineBlade]

I asked this exact question to VDIF and was put in touch with John Odenkirk.  Here was his response:

Hi Gene.  I’m a biologist that covers the NOVA area, and I’ve lived, fished and worked here most of my life.  I’ve never heard of anything such as you describe, and I am inclined to suggest you disregard this bit of hearsay.   There is no logical reason for a Park Police Officer (assume NPS) to tell anyone that they cannot wade in a Commonwealth stream.  Even if the land is under NPS jurisdiction (perhaps along the Parkway – see http://www.nps.gov/gwmp/mvt-safety.htm), but even then; there should be no issue with wading.  I agree with your assertions and will fight to make sure you can practice your hobby in your favorite stream.  Please let me know if you have any issues.  

PS – the NPS has recently taken a very aggressive stance with anglers and boaters in the Dyke March vicinity, and it has become apparent that some folks are not aware of appropriate rules and regulations that govern these activities.    As for our ramp at Gravelly Point, I have been there numerous times; and the facility seems to be functioning as designed.  Of course, this means some of what you observe, but those features do come along with a full service boat ramp on  a large tidal river.  The fishing can be quite good in the boat basin, as most anglers immediately jet away for distant destinations.   

So I'm totally unclear -- is GP a park?  I've never really paid much attention to the signs around there.  What about the duck pond?  Isn't that a wildlife refuge or something?  

Gene

[Mike Bailey]

When it comes to fishing access in general I believe that law enforcement by each department with jurisdiction tend to look the other way a the majority of the time.  A select few may become more strict in certain scenarios. I could see a NPS Police patrol spotting a person in the water geared up at 2:30 AM, near the end of a major airport's runway, may want to investigate and enter it into his or her daily report as a matter resolved. Another hour and a half later Remick may have been in the clear. Area lot opens at 4:00 AM 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tidal-potomac-fly-rodders/CANiFxBxQpFUdtPPoHQt4PpoxWFGWimM9nbB6C6k9Q9f-8LTUzg%40mail.gmail.com?hl=en-US.

[Richard Farino]

Just had a long talk with Carl at NPS GW Parkway headquarters up at Turkey Run.

 

The rule specifically states:

“(e) Swimming. Bathing, swimming or

wading in any fountain or pool except

where officially authorized is prohibited. Bathing, swimming or wading in

the Tidal Basin, the Chesapeake and

Ohio Canal, or Rock Creek, or entering

from other areas covered by this section the Potomac River, Anacostia

River, Washington Channel or Georgetown Channel, except for the purpose of

saving a drowning person, is prohibited.”

 

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2004-title36-vol1/pdf/CFR-2004-title36-vol1-sec7-96.pdf

 

That means wading at Gravelly Point is actually illegal.  Whether or not you’ve been cited before is irrelevant.  Also, the fact that the park was closed is also irrelevant.

 

Upon further talks, the Duck Pond, despite being fed by the Potomac, is still treated like an inland Virginia waterway even though it’s run by NPS as a wildlife sanctuary and you are allowed to wade fish the Duck Pond provided you have a valid Virginia fishing license.

 

The real problem here is finding out why you’re not allowed to wade in a navigable waterway “period”.

 

I suggest anyone wishing to question this regulation write to

 

Mr. John James, superintendent of the George Washington Memorial Parkway at NPS at the following e-mail address - gwmp_supe...@nps.gov

 

 

 

R

 

 

Richard Farino

Urban Angler VA | 108 N. Washington Street  2nd Floor | Alexandria, VA 22314

(703) 527-2524 | fax: (703) 527-3313 | ric...@urbanangler.com

 

From: tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Bailey
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 11:00 AM
To: tidal-potomac-fly-rodders
Subject: Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Illegal to wade Gravelly Point

 

When it comes to fishing access in general I believe that law enforcement by each department with jurisdiction tend to look the other way a the majority of the time.  A select few may become more strict in certain scenarios. I could see a NPS Police patrol spotting a person in the water geared up at 2:30 AM, near the end of a major airport's runway, may want to investigate and enter it into his or her daily report as a matter resolved. Another hour and a half later Remick may have been in the clear. Area lot opens at 4:00 AM 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tidal-potomac-fly-rodders/CABaYb1Mjxw1GKJbLuYENPLmnWCh1swL1vuz_Dn-GOFRj1Obuww%40mail.gmail.com?hl=en-US.

[TurbineBlade]

Thanks for posting this Rich -- I just sent a quick message.  

Another question is this -- if wading rock creek is illegal except for the purpose of saving a drowning person, how is it that DC government (DDOE) water quality is able to electroshock 3 sections of it every year legally?  Are they in violation of the law for doing this?  I worked there for 2 years and never even gave a thought to whether wading was legal or not.  

Gene

On Thursday, May 30, 2013 10:08:55 AM UTC-4, FlyTimesDC wrote:

[TurbineBlade]

Also add -- anyone who fishes GP really should send at least a concerned message about this.  Remick received a ticket, but it could have just as easily been me or anyone else out there.  

Law is law, but there's a certain unethical feeling when the officer had to look up the regulations in a book in order to determine how to craft a ticket.  If NPS doesn't even understand the law well, it seems to me that a simple warning follow up with better signage at GP would suffice.  

Gene

[TurbineBlade]

One more -- based on this ticket, could you be ticketed wading 4MR for "entering the Potomac"?  

Gene

[Dalton Terrell]

Richie,

Did Carl say that wading was "officially authorized" at Roaches Run? As Rob mentioned, a member of our group was told that wading there was illegal by Park Police a couple years back (see thread here: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!searchin/tidal-potomac-fly-rodders/illegal$20roaches/tidal-potomac-fly-rodders/4g52QdS2_u8/HV1y4WZtYIQJ). We might need a lawyer or the court in Remick's case to clarify the proper interpretation of these statutes.

Dalton

[Jeffrey Nowak]

Perhaps someone should open an online donation collection page for legal fees? I'd certainly pay to find out if wadding is legal at one of my favorite fishing spots.... Sorry Dan if this is not allowed on the forum.

-Jeff

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[Dalton Terrell]

Maybe one of our lawyers could do some pro bono (pro beero?) work on this and we would be indebted to them many pints, payable at a Beer Tie.

Dalton

[TurbineBlade]

I am totally willing to help out ($ or time) if Remick wants to go to court with this.  I'm pretty lazy and don't really care about most things, but this really matters!  And I just read the law and it is extremely poorly written:

“(e) Swimming. Bathing, swimming or

wading in any fountain or pool except

where officially authorized is prohibited. Bathing, swimming or wading in

the Tidal Basin, the Chesapeake and

Ohio Canal, or Rock Creek, or entering

from other areas covered by this section the Potomac River, Anacostia

River, Washington Channel or Georgetown Channel, except for the purpose of

saving a drowning person, is prohibited.”

To me, it reads a lot like "wading" is meant to be associated with "swimming/bathing" versus a fly fisherman wading while fishing.  I seriously, highly doubt that in the 1940s (or whatever) when this was written that they even considered people would fly fish in some of  these areas.  I'd be curious about how a judge would interpret this given how incredibly vauge it is.  

I actually can't believe the officer ticketed Remick based on this language.  

So is 4MR considered a "park in the Capital Region"?  If so, can you be ticketed for "entering the potomac" while wading at 4MR?  

This would seriously limit some of the great places people like to fish -- not good.  

Let me know -- I'm willing to help!  

Gene

On Thursday, May 30, 2013 1:25:09 PM UTC-4, Jeff wrote:

Perhaps someone should open an online donation collection page for legal fees? I'd certainly pay to find out if wadding is legal at one of my favorite fishing spots.... Sorry Dan if this is not allowed on the forum.

-Jeff

On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Dalton Terrell <daltonb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Richie,

Did Carl say that wading was "officially authorized" at Roaches Run? As Rob mentioned, a member of our group was told that wading there was illegal by Park Police a couple years back (see thread here: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!searchin/tidal-potomac-fly-rodders/illegal$20roaches/tidal-potomac-fly-rodders/4g52QdS2_u8/HV1y4WZtYIQJ). We might need a lawyer or the court in Remick's case to clarify the proper interpretation of these statutes.

Dalton

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[Richard Farino]

The provision that clarifies that is this part –“ or entering from other areas covered by this section the Potomac River… …except for the purpose of

saving a drowning person, is prohibited.”

 

 

R

 

Richard Farino

Urban Angler VA | 108 N. Washington Street  2nd Floor | Alexandria, VA 22314

(703) 527-2524 | fax: (703) 527-3313 | ric...@urbanangler.com

 

From: tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of TurbineBlade
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 1:34 PM
To: tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Illegal to wade Gravelly Point

 

I am totally willing to help out ($ or time) if Remick wants to go to court with this.  I'm pretty lazy and don't really care about most things, but this really matters!  And I just read the law and it is extremely poorly written:

 

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[Richard Farino]

I specifically asked and he said the Duck Pond does not fall under the rule of Potomac waterway and that you could indeed wade there.

 

Under these specific rules also, it also means you cannot wade the Potomac anywhere along the C&O Canal where NPS oversees the park.

 

 

 

R

 

 

 

Richard Farino

Urban Angler VA | 108 N. Washington Street  2nd Floor | Alexandria, VA 22314

(703) 527-2524 | fax: (703) 527-3313 | ric...@urbanangler.com

 

From: tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dalton Terrell
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 1:21 PM
To: tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Illegal to wade Gravelly Point

 

Richie,

 

Did Carl say that wading was "officially authorized" at Roaches Run? As Rob mentioned, a member of our group was told that wading there was illegal by Park Police a couple years back (see thread here: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!searchin/tidal-potomac-fly-rodders/illegal$20roaches/tidal-potomac-fly-rodders/4g52QdS2_u8/HV1y4WZtYIQJ). We might need a lawyer or the court in Remick's case to clarify the proper interpretation of these statutes.

 

Dalton

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[Eric Y.]

Gene: 4MR would only be illegal according to the above discussion if you were entering it from GWMP land and not from 4MR Park.

[John Bilotta]

I guess they give the triathalon a waiver.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tidal-potomac-fly-rodders/51CEF43E-7F86-4E6C-8957-447D1774EC9D%40robsnowhite.com?hl=en-US.

[Richard Farino]

I called Park Police and the District 2 station in Virginia.

 

Wading is definitely illegal in the Potomac in the National Capital region – I have to call a Sergeant in that same office later today to get the boundaries of the National Capital region clarified.  It should extend all the way to the Woodrow Wilson bridge, but it may also include Montgomery Co. in MD.

The problem is NPS also oversees the C&O Canal, which would mean if Montgomery Co is included, it is illegal to wade all the way upstream to the Monocacy.

 

I’m making a few phone calls to see if we can get the rules cleared up so I can contact a legislator and find out why it is illegal to wade a navigable river in the nation’s capital.

 

Regards,

 

 

R

 

 

 

Richard Farino

Urban Angler VA | 108 N. Washington Street  2nd Floor | Alexandria, VA 22314

(703) 527-2524 | fax: (703) 527-3313 | ric...@urbanangler.com

 

From: tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Nowak
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 1:25 PM
To: tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Illegal to wade Gravelly Point

 

Perhaps someone should open an online donation collection page for legal fees? I'd certainly pay to find out if wadding is legal at one of my favorite fishing spots.... Sorry Dan if this is not allowed on the forum.

 

-Jeff

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tidal-potomac-fly-rodders/CAEr%2BhrQUNMQ1Ng3V8UdivKuUfDrEifs5ic2vePknRLRca6OKpg%40mail.gmail.com?hl=en-US.

[TurbineBlade]

Great Rich -- I think that point is a really big deal.  

Question -- if you jump in the duck pond and somehow swim through the tunnel to GP, are you still illegal I assume?  So the entrance doesn't matter, just the fact that you are "wading"?  

On Thursday, May 30, 2013 1:31:33 PM UTC-4, Richard Farino wrote:

I called Park Police and the District 2 station in Virginia.

 

Wading is definitely illegal in the Potomac in the National Capital region – I have to call a Sergeant in that same office later today to get the boundaries of the National Capital region clarified.  It should extend all the way to the Woodrow Wilson bridge, but it may also include Montgomery Co. in MD.

The problem is NPS also oversees the C&O Canal, which would mean if Montgomery Co is included, it is illegal to wade all the way upstream to the Monocacy.

 

I’m making a few phone calls to see if we can get the rules cleared up so I can contact a legislator and find out why it is illegal to wade a navigable river in the nation’s capital.

 

Regards,

 

 

R

 

 

 

Richard Farino

Urban Angler VA | 108 N. Washington Street  2nd Floor | Alexandria, VA 22314

(703) 527-2524 | fax: (703) 527-3313 | ric...@urbanangler.com

 

From: tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tidal-potomac-fly-rod...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Nowak
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 1:25 PM
To: tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Illegal to wade Gravelly Point

 

Perhaps someone should open an online donation collection page for legal fees? I'd certainly pay to find out if wadding is legal at one of my favorite fishing spots.... Sorry Dan if this is not allowed on the forum.

 

-Jeff

On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Dalton Terrell <daltonb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Richie,

 

Did Carl say that wading was "officially authorized" at Roaches Run? As Rob mentioned, a member of our group was told that wading there was illegal by Park Police a couple years back (see thread here: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!searchin/tidal-potomac-fly-rodders/illegal$20roaches/tidal-potomac-fly-rodders/4g52QdS2_u8/HV1y4WZtYIQJ). We might need a lawyer or the court in Remick's case to clarify the proper interpretation of these statutes.

 

Dalton

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[Rob Snowhite]

Richie 

The canal park is huge. That would span Georgetown to Hancock md. That's a lot of typical and historic wading locations. Has the park service ever fined "Naked Ned"?

Sent from my iPhone

On May 30, 2013, at 1:34 PM, "Richard Farino" <ric...@urbanangler.com> wrote:

I specifically asked and he said the Duck Pond does not fall under the rule of Potomac waterway and that you could indeed wade there.

 

Under these specific rules also, it also means you cannot wade the Potomac anywhere along the C&O Canal where NPS oversees the park.

 

 

 

R

 

 

 

Richard Farino

Urban Angler VA | 108 N. Washington Street  2nd Floor | Alexandria, VA 22314 <image001.png>

(703) 527-2524 | fax: (703) 527-3313 | ric...@urbanangler.com

 

From: tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dalton Terrell
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 1:21 PM
To: tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Illegal to wade Gravelly Point

 

Richie,

 

Did Carl say that wading was "officially authorized" at Roaches Run? As Rob mentioned, a member of our group was told that wading there was illegal by Park Police a couple years back (see thread here: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!searchin/tidal-potomac-fly-rodders/illegal$20roaches/tidal-potomac-fly-rodders/4g52QdS2_u8/HV1y4WZtYIQJ). We might need a lawyer or the court in Remick's case to clarify the proper interpretation of these statutes.

 

Dalton

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[Dalton Terrell]

Yes, the Triathalon is given a waiver but has had the cancel the event multiple times due to excessive fecal bacteria levels. http://dcist.com/2012/07/dc_looks_to_legalize_swimming_in_th.php 

Dalton

[FlyTimesDC]

Thanks for all the support, research, and clarification on this guys. I plan to fight this ticket and will provide the court date when I get home after work. If anyone is willing to help out or bang the drum so to speak, it'd be greatly appreciated. It's amazing to think that one night citation at Gravelly has exceeded the amount of citations/fish fines given at Chain Bridge during the entire shad run. On a side note - if the Tidal Basin 4 are looking to expand on their renegade, outlaw ways, count me in.

[Matthew Longley]

Rich--would that include the sand bar where club casting is held?

[Greg Feder]

"why it is illegal to wade a navigable river in the nation’s capital"?

 

I imagine this is a public safety matter -- lots of deaths from people bathing, swimming, or wading and getting swept away to their doom, as we know.  But there should be a way to distinguish the dangerous areas from the shin-deep safe areas with slow flows. 

 

Cheers,

 

-- Greg

 

From: Richard Farino <ric...@urbanangler.com>
To: tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 1:31 PM
Subject: RE: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Illegal to wade Gravelly Point

I called Park Police and the District 2 station in Virginia.

 

Wading is definitely illegal in the Potomac in the National Capital region – I have to call a Sergeant in that same office later today to get the boundaries of the National Capital region clarified.  It should extend all the way to the Woodrow Wilson bridge, but it may also include Montgomery Co. in MD.

The problem is NPS also oversees the C&O Canal, which would mean if Montgomery Co is included, it is illegal to wade all the way upstream to the Monocacy.

 

I’m making a few phone calls to see if we can get the rules cleared up so I can contact a legislator and find out why it is illegal to wade a navigable river in the nation’s capital.

 

Regards,

 

 

R

 

 

 

Richard Farino

Urban Angler VA | 108 N. Washington Street  2nd Floor | Alexandria, VA 22314

(703) 527-2524 | fax: (703) 527-3313 | ric...@urbanangler.com

 

From: tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Nowak
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 1:25 PM
To: tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Illegal to wade Gravelly Point

 

Perhaps someone should open an online donation collection page for legal fees? I'd certainly pay to find out if wadding is legal at one of my favorite fishing spots.... Sorry Dan if this is not allowed on the forum.

 

-Jeff

On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Dalton Terrell <daltonb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Richie,

 

Did Carl say that wading was "officially authorized" at Roaches Run? As Rob mentioned, a member of our group was told that wading there was illegal by Park Police a couple years back (see thread here: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!searchin/tidal-potomac-fly-rodders/illegal$20roaches/tidal-potomac-fly-rodders/4g52QdS2_u8/HV1y4WZtYIQJ). We might need a lawyer or the court in Remick's case to clarify the proper interpretation of these statutes.

 

Dalton

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[John Bilotta]

they would have to find him.

john

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[HeaveToo]

This whole thing is bad.  There is also the letter of the law and the "Spirit" of the law.  Clearly the "Spirit" of the law would exclude people engaged in recreational fishing.  The Officer should have used some good old fashioned discretion and warned the poor guy who got the ticket. 

This kind of reminds me of the mess going on in the Jackson River.  http://www.potomacriverkeeper.org/updates/public-use-virginia%E2%80%99s-public-waterways-threatened

Public outcry could be the one thing that fixes this.  It is something that needs to be looked into because those federal lands are for the public's use.  We own this land as it is federal public land.  

[TurbineBlade]

Another question - is the Wilson bridge the official "south-most" marker where this "capital area" applies?  In other words, if I wanted to wade down by riverview park (near Grist Mill) is this also illegal?  

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[Brendan]

I should be able to help out from a legislative/federal side of things. Give me a min. 

On Thursday, May 30, 2013 1:31:33 PM UTC-4, Richard Farino wrote:

I called Park Police and the District 2 station in Virginia.

 

Wading is definitely illegal in the Potomac in the National Capital region – I have to call a Sergeant in that same office later today to get the boundaries of the National Capital region clarified.  It should extend all the way to the Woodrow Wilson bridge, but it may also include Montgomery Co. in MD.

The problem is NPS also oversees the C&O Canal, which would mean if Montgomery Co is included, it is illegal to wade all the way upstream to the Monocacy.

 

I’m making a few phone calls to see if we can get the rules cleared up so I can contact a legislator and find out why it is illegal to wade a navigable river in the nation’s capital.

 

Regards,

 

 

R

 

 

 

Richard Farino

Urban Angler VA | 108 N. Washington Street  2nd Floor | Alexandria, VA 22314

(703) 527-2524 | fax: (703) 527-3313 | ric...@urbanangler.com

 

From: tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tidal-potomac-fly-rod...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Nowak
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 1:25 PM
To: tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Illegal to wade Gravelly Point

 

Perhaps someone should open an online donation collection page for legal fees? I'd certainly pay to find out if wadding is legal at one of my favorite fishing spots.... Sorry Dan if this is not allowed on the forum.

 

-Jeff

On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Dalton Terrell <daltonb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Richie,

 

Did Carl say that wading was "officially authorized" at Roaches Run? As Rob mentioned, a member of our group was told that wading there was illegal by Park Police a couple years back (see thread here: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!searchin/tidal-potomac-fly-rodders/illegal$20roaches/tidal-potomac-fly-rodders/4g52QdS2_u8/HV1y4WZtYIQJ). We might need a lawyer or the court in Remick's case to clarify the proper interpretation of these statutes.

 

Dalton

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[Jeff Cook]

But guys, 2:30am off the end of National Airport at National Park Service land that is posted to close at 10pm? Haven't they been looking the other way for the four years of increasing wade activity coming from this group? Clearly it was the hour that forced the flare up.

Of course it revealed a wading law we now all have a chance to change. But when it does, they'll still give people tickets at 230am. 

Just sayin. 

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[TurbineBlade]

If using the park after-hours is the issue, the ticket should not be for "entering the Potomac" or related to wading -- that's what I'm concerned with.  

I get your point about being there at weird hours, but the law needs to be addressed so it's clear that it's either "okay" or "not cool" to wade at these locations everyone here uses.  

Gene

On Thursday, May 30, 2013 3:56:50 PM UTC-4, Jeff Cook wrote:

But guys, 2:30am off the end of National Airport at National Park Service land that is posted to close at 10pm? Haven't they been looking the other way for the four years of increasing wade activity coming from this group? Clearly it was the hour that forced the flare up.

Of course it revealed a wading law we now all have a chance to change. But when it does, they'll still give people tickets at 230am. 

Just sayin. 

--

Jeff Cook

On May 30, 2013, at 1:08 PM, HeaveToo <cpd...@hotmail.com> wrote:

This whole thing is bad.  There is also the letter of the law and the "Spirit" of the law.  Clearly the "Spirit" of the law would exclude people engaged in recreational fishing.  The Officer should have used some good old fashioned discretion and warned the poor guy who got the ticket. 

This kind of reminds me of the mess going on in the Jackson River.  http://www.potomacriverkeeper.org/updates/public-use-virginia%E2%80%99s-public-waterways-threatened

Public outcry could be the one thing that fixes this.  It is something that needs to be looked into because those federal lands are for the public's use.  We own this land as it is federal public land.  

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[FlyTimesDC]

Agreed. The rules need clarification and hopefully we can implement some positive change that everyone can enjoy. As for the 2;30am...when you gotta go, you gotta go, right?

[Richard Farino]

I was about to say you’re fine since you’d be below the Woodrow Wilson Bridge, but see my next post.

 

Not good news.

 

 

R

 

 

 

Richard Farino

Urban Angler VA | 108 N. Washington Street  2nd Floor | Alexandria, VA 22314

(703) 527-2524 | fax: (703) 527-3313 | ric...@urbanangler.com

 

From: tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of TurbineBlade
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 3:12 PM
To: tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Illegal to wade Gravelly Point

 

Another question - is the Wilson bridge the official "south-most" marker where this "capital area" applies?  In other words, if I wanted to wade down by riverview park (near Grist Mill) is this also illegal?  

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[Richard Farino]

So I just got off the phone with Sergeant Locasio, who coincidentally issued Remick’s citation.

 

His interpretation of the regulations as explained to me:

·         You may not enter the Potomac anywhere along NPS property.  That includes the entire GWMP all the way down to Mt. Vernon, Fort Washington, Great Falls, and the entire C&O Canal.  That includes the entire 187.4 mile stretch of the C&O Canal from Georgetown to Cumberland, MD. This also includes the entire GW Memorial Parkway, Harper's Ferry, and any other national park property that provides access to our nation's navigable river.

 

I’ve made a few phone calls and hope to have more info later tomorrow.  We’ve gotten Ducks Unlimited involved, and am waiting to hear from the NPS chief as well as a few lobbyists and Capitol Hill guys.

 

I’ll update everyone when we hear more and can move on things.

 

 

Weird.

 

 

R

 

 

Richard Farino

Urban Angler VA | 108 N. Washington Street  2nd Floor | Alexandria, VA 22314

(703) 527-2524 | fax: (703) 527-3313 | ric...@urbanangler.com

 

From: tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of FlyTimesDC

Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 4:37 PM
To: tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Re: Illegal to wade Gravelly Point

 

Agreed. The rules need clarification and hopefully we can implement some positive change that everyone can enjoy. As for the 2;30am...when you gotta go, you gotta go, right?

On Thursday, May 30, 2013 4:11:35 PM UTC-4, TurbineBlade wrote:

If using the park after-hours is the issue, the ticket should not be for "entering the Potomac" or related to wading -- that's what I'm concerned with.  

 

I get your point about being there at weird hours, but the law needs to be addressed so it's clear that it's either "okay" or "not cool" to wade at these locations everyone here uses.  

 

Gene

On Thursday, May 30, 2013 3:56:50 PM UTC-4, Jeff Cook wrote:

But guys, 2:30am off the end of National Airport at National Park Service land that is posted to close at 10pm? Haven't they been looking the other way for the four years of increasing wade activity coming from this group? Clearly it was the hour that forced the flare up.

 

Of course it revealed a wading law we now all have a chance to change. But when it does, they'll still give people tickets at 230am. 

 

Just sayin. 

 

--

Jeff Cook

 

On May 30, 2013, at 1:08 PM, HeaveToo <cpd...@hotmail.com> wrote:

This whole thing is bad.  There is also the letter of the law and the "Spirit" of the law.  Clearly the "Spirit" of the law would exclude people engaged in recreational fishing.  The Officer should have used some good old fashioned discretion and warned the poor guy who got the ticket. 

This kind of reminds me of the mess going on in the Jackson River.  http://www.potomacriverkeeper.org/updates/public-use-virginia%E2%80%99s-public-waterways-threatened

Public outcry could be the one thing that fixes this.  It is something that needs to be looked into because those federal lands are for the public's use.  We own this land as it is federal public land.  

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[HeaveToo]

Hrm....sounds like they have shaken the wrong bee hive!

[TurbineBlade]

All the way up??  For God's sake, Lefty Kreh lists wading the Brunswick, MD portion of the Potomac River as one of his favorite smallmouth waters.  

And what about Steve Moore's "Wade and Shorline Fishing the Potomac River for Smallmouth Bass"?  

So this book is pointless and Lefty has been illegally wading for all these years?  

Thank you so much for your work on this Rich -- man, I hope we can do something about this.  It not, this really puts a serious damper on our fishery here.  

Gene

[Carlos V.]

Hmm something just doesn't make sense about his interpretation. I've been going to Harper's Ferry for the last 4 years where people wade all the time. Heck they run tubing trips in that part of the Potomac where people wade to get in and when they stop in the big rocks in the middle of the river. This is all happening in front of the law enforcement up there, it has been going on for years. This regulation clearly is not being enforcing correctly or needs updating.

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[Speycaster]

Does this also include a ban on casting at Fletcher's Cove ?

[Rob Snowhite]

Fletcher's is operated by the park service guest services and is inside the c&o park so yup that's included. 

Great work Richie. 

Sent from my iPhone

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[Speycaster]

That kinda kills traditional fly fishing on the Potomac if the NPS decides this is an important public service.  Not a happy camper here. 

On Thursday, May 30, 2013 8:07:47 PM UTC-4, Rob Snowhite wrote:

Fletcher's is operated by the park service guest services and is inside the c&o park so yup that's included. 

Great work Richie. 

Sent from my iPhone

On May 30, 2013, at 8:06 PM, Speycaster <cleeb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Does this also include a ban on casting at Fletcher's Cove ?

On Thursday, May 30, 2013 10:08:55 AM UTC-4, FlyTimesDC wrote:

So last night I was fishing the outgoing tide at gravelly point around 2:30 am when a park officer called me out of the water saying the park closed at 12 (I've never heard of the inlet our outflow ever being closed but left without resistance). He then asked to see my license, which I promptly gave him, and we went back to his car. I'm pretty sure he was looking for any excuse to ticket me, because he then sat in his car for about 10 minutes reading up on ordinances and rules. When he returned, he gave me back my licenses and a $130 fine for "Entering the Potomac". Umm, what? I have a court date in June and plan on fighting this. There are no signs or anything else to indicate that A) wading is illegal in the inlet and B) that the inlet is closed at 12am. Curious to hear y'all's thoughts. I've heard of people being hassled by airport police at Gravelly but this is a tad ridiculous.

Thanks,

Remick

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[John Bilotta]

true.

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[Longley]

Now might be a good time for the White House lurker to jump in!

Sent from my mobile device

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[TurbineBlade]

Yes, extremely disappointing.  

Remick -- you're taking the fall for this but it could have been literally just about anyone on this board...since no one (including NPS most likely) was aware of this.  Remick, you have a great attitude about this by the way -- I'm not sure I'd be quite as calm.  

I'll suggest that members chip in 5-10 bucks at the next beer tie to help cover your citation since it's basically random chance that they chose to throw the book at you.  

Gene

true.

[Speycaster]

Personally - I think NPS has good reason for the policy as many have lost lives in the dangerous waters. However, I equate the draconian NPS policy to failed Zero Tolerance Policies.  TPFR should work with NPS to designate safe areas along the Potomac to promote safe access to the river while promoting our beloved sport.

On Thursday, May 30, 2013 8:29:33 PM UTC-4, John Bilotta wrote:

true.

[Eric Antrim]

Sorry to hear about your misfortune.  Please, let me know if there is anything I can do.  I think talking to the Park Service is a good plan.  The new Secretary of the Interior also fishes; I'm sure she'd be appalled at someone being ticketed for fishing.  It might be a good idea for TPFR to approach the Park Service as a group to work something out over time.

[Speycaster]

I bet they drink beer and tie flies as well.  This is a worthy mission of TPFR.

[Rob Snowhite]

This article from yesterday talks about wading the Potomac. 

http://articles.herald-mail.com/2013-05-29/news/39609992_1_potomac-river-degrees-heat
Sent from my iPhone

On May 30, 2013, at 7:14 PM, "Richard Farino" <ric...@urbanangler.com> wrote:

So I just got off the phone with Sergeant Locasio, who coincidentally issued Remick’s citation.

 

His interpretation of the regulations as explained to me:

·         You may not enter the Potomac anywhere along NPS property.  That includes the entire GWMP all the way down to Mt. Vernon, Fort Washington, Great Falls, and the entire C&O Canal.  That includes the entire 187.4 mile stretch of the C&O Canal from Georgetown to Cumberland, MD. This also includes the entire GW Memorial Parkway, Harper's Ferry, and any other national park property that provides access to our nation's navigable river.

 

I’ve made a few phone calls and hope to have more info later tomorrow.  We’ve gotten Ducks Unlimited involved, and am waiting to hear from the NPS chief as well as a few lobbyists and Capitol Hill guys.

 

I’ll update everyone when we hear more and can move on things.

 

 

Weird.

 

 

R

 

 

Richard Farino

Urban Angler VA | 108 N. Washington Street  2nd Floor | Alexandria, VA 22314 <image001.png>

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[Matt S.]

This whole issue is very depressing and important and transcends the unfortunate citation. If members here, or the club itself take action challenging this issue I suggest they/we attempt to enlist support from Fletcher's as well, because it is an iconic, longtime DC business enterprise known to thousands of anglers--including some on Capitol Hill. I am doubly concerned because the rules have not seemed crystal clear and because safety issues are (broadly) legitimate. I agree with the postings but we don't do our cause any favors by appearing to ignore them. A purely safety based approach could help make a case that sweeping regulations and enforcement of those regulations are necessary--particularly in light of recent drownings and occasional pollution issues. We might also want to weigh contacting Steve Moore (who recently moved out of the area) or Lefty or others about this. Few people relish a legal fight though. Know any sympathetic journalists?
Matt

[Speycaster]

The law makes launching paddle boards, kayaks, canoes, etc... rather difficult.

[Jeffrey Nowak]

Is it at the Federal Court house in Alexandria? I believe since you were on federal land that it would be in federal court house no?

On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 5:11 AM, Remick <flyti...@gmail.com> wrote:

Court date is August 1st. Let's bring the thunder.

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[namfos]

So, if we can find him, can we make a citizen's arrest of Lefty?  Levity aside, shall I post about this contretemps on the NCC-TU Facebook page?

[Dallen Hall]

Go for it. The agencies we count on to establish order and reasonable limits seem to have taken another leap ahead into the outer limits of governance.  It's more than embarrassing happenstance.  

On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 10:08 AM, namfos <mark....@gmail.com> wrote:

So, if we can find him, can we make a citizen's arrest of Lefty?  Levity aside, shall I post about this contretemps on the NCC-TU Facebook page?

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[Howard A]

So if we are allowed to float the river in an inner tube.  Can I just replace my safety belt with a bike tire inner tube and be good to go?

I am curious though, how was the fishing?  Unaware of your plight, I was there a few hours later and only managed 1 small striper, a lot of gar in the water though.

[Dalton Terrell]

Steve,

Thanks for joining in with your marathon post, that helps clarify a lot.

Dalton

[Mike]

Steve,

Thanks for your time and effort on this explanation.  It's answers 99% of the questions raised in the last 24 hours on this matter.

On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 9:07 AM, Steve Moore <catch...@gmail.com> wrote:

Matt Smith pointed me at this thread.  My input only applies to the section above Chain Bridge where the river lies in Maryland.

When I wrote my book, I saw the same loosely worded restriction on wading.  I brought this up with Brad Clawson who is the (or was...not sure if he is still there) the Chief Ranger of the C&O Canal NHP and asked him to review my chapter on rules and regulations.  To make a longer story short, he agreed that fishing is OK and his officers would not ticket wading anglers. In fact, this became an issue last year when a US Park Police officer issued a citation to an angler fishing in the river in the Gorge area.  I connected with him again in September 2012 to obtain clarification.  He wrote back and agreed to discuss this with them ("I'll let you know if there interpretation is different than mine.") After the meeting he indicated "The USPP agrees that fishing with a PFD on is allowed in the Potomac River in the Gorge" ... to match the C&O interpretation.

While I am certainly not a lawyer and relied on Mr. Clawson for confirmation that the book is correct, it is possible that the interpretation of the Maryland and Federal regulations have changed since late 2012 and, as I indicated in the book, the angler is ultimately responsible for being in compliance.

If anyone knows of a change in policy between Chain Bridge and the upper boundary of Montgomery County, please let me know (steve...@catchguide.com) so I can pull the book out of circulation.

Here is the background:

The river is in Maryland and the Park boundary is the mean high water mark (average over a year).  Two things here.  First, for the nitpickers the weak argument is that if the river is below the high water mark, you are entering the water from Maryland and if you look at the map, there are a number of places where you can stay on dry land and move onto an island without getting your feet wet and officially be outside the park in Maryland.  The Fairfax County Park/NVRPA emphasized this to me when they related the story of "Naked Ned."  Ned liked to swim/wade in his birthday suit and the NVRPA could not arrest him in the river... since he was outside of Virginia in Maryland.

Second, Maryland specifically defines fishing as a separate activity from wading as long as you are wearing a PFD.  Here is the extract from my book - the text I coordinated with Mr. Clawson:

"In Maryland, the C&O Canal NHP extends the entire length of the river from Chain Bridge all the way up to and beyond Harpers Ferry.

The governing regulation can be found in 36 CFR Ch. 1 (7-1-01 edition).

You can find a current copy of this regulation on the National Park Service website (http://www.nps.gov/nama/planyourvisit/permits.htm).

Here is the section that establishes the regulatory framework for the Potomac covered in this book:

§ 7.96 National Capital Region.

(a) Applicability of regulations. This section applies to all park areas administered by National Capital Region in the District of Columbia and in Arlington, Fairfax, Loudoun, Prince William, and Stafford Counties and the City of Alexandria in Virginia and Prince Georges, Charles, Anne Arundel, and Montgomery Counties in Maryland and to other federal reservations in the environs of the District of Columbia, policed with the approval or concurrence of the head of the agency having jurisdiction or control over such reservations, pursuant to the provisions of the act of March 17, 1948 (62 Stat. 81).

Basically, what this says is that the regulations in subsequent paragraphs are applicable to the entire extent of the C&O Canal NHP up to the northern boundary of Montgomery County as well as to the George Washington Memorial Parkway that sits across the river in Fairfax County.

Here are the specific sections that govern your activity on federal property:

(d) Fishing. Unless otherwise designated, fishing in a manner authorized under applicable State law is allowed.

(e) Swimming. Bathing, swimming or wading in any fountain or pool except where officially authorized is prohibited. Bathing, swimming or wading in the Tidal Basin, the Chesapeake and Ohio Canal, or Rock Creek, or entering from other areas covered by this section the Potomac River, Anacostia River, Washington Channel or Georgetown Channel, except for the purpose of saving a drowning person, is prohibited.

Section 7.96(d) confirms that Maryland regulations apply to fishing in the Potomac River. Maryland does not prohibit wading while fishing.  In fact, Maryland has its own view, specifically authorizing fishing/wading with a few constraints, which I discuss in the next section.

Section 7.96(e) prohibits swimming, bathing and wading and the word "or" connects those activities to entering the Potomac River from Park property.  The boundary between the Park and Maryland is the mean high water mark with the river rising and falling with the weather.

The interpretation of these two sections matters because there are a number of access points that have prominent "No Wading" signs displayed. Does wading include fishing or is it separate?

I discussed this with the Chief Ranger of the C&O Canal NHP and he told me that Maryland law prevails. Since Maryland law defines fishing as a different activity than wading and section 7.96(d) defers to state law regarding fishing, the C&O Canal NHP permits anglers to wade while fishing.  Since this book will be in print for years and regulations will evolve, I recommend that you take one additional step to ensure that you fall in the "fishing" category.  A close read of section 7.96(e) reveals that there are three things that the Park wants to constrain; swimming, bathing, and wading. Typically, individuals engaged those activities do not do them while wearing a PFD. Therefore, if you wear a PFD, you push yourself farther into the fishing category. Besides, in the areas specifically called out with the signs, it's the prudent and safe thing to do.

Maryland State Regulations
In addition to the generic guidance from Maryland quoted in the common sense section, there are specific restrictions associated with the more dangerous areas of the Potomac. These are captured in Title 08 (Department of Natural Resources), Subtitle 06 (Recreational Water Uses), Chapter 01 (Potomac River Safety) of the Maryland code.

Specifically, section 03 establishes two special regulatory zones:

Zone A. A person may not enter the Potomac River for the purpose of recreational use in that portion of the Potomac River beginning 200 yards above the crest of Aqueduct Intake Dam (Great Falls) and extending downstream to the base of Stubblefield Falls.

Zone B. A person may not enter the Potomac River for the purpose of recreational use in that portion of the Potomac River beginning 100 yards above the crest of Dam No. 1 (Brookmont Dam) and extending downstream to the western Maryland and District of Columbia boundary line.

The law goes on to further define "recreational use" in section 08.06.01.02 and makes an exception for fishing:

(2) Recreational Use.
(a) "Recreational use" means activities on the Potomac River, including swimming, bathing, wading, diving, tubing, rafting, and other uses involving contact with the water.
(b) "Recreational use" does not include:
(i) Boating, if each person involved is wearing the U.S. Coast Guard approved flotation device required by law or regulation;
(ii) Fishing, when a U.S. Coast Guard approved personal flotation device is worn;
(iii) Life-saving efforts;
(iv) Swimming or wading as part of a training course having the prior written approval of the Department of Natural Resources or U.S. Park Service.

The bottom line is that if you fish in the two special zones, you must wear a PFD.

One final point is that the above regulation is in conflict with the quote I pulled from the Maryland DNR publication that indicated “Wading in the waters around Great Falls is prohibited.”  I was unable to find that in a state law, but fully agree that it should be a law.  It may exist… buried in the code somewhere.

It is this section of Maryland law, until changed or reinterpreted, that provides the opportunity for anglers to wade while fishing in compliance with the federal regulation:

(d) Fishing. Unless otherwise designated, fishing in a manner authorized under applicable State law is allowed.

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[Aden]

It seems that they can write you a ticket for entering the water from the park service's land but once you are in the water and standing on the stream bed you are no longer in the park service's jurisdiction.  You are in MD, DC or VA land.  At least that is how state and district wildlife officers have explained it to me the few times I have been ID'd and checked for licenses.  They were  very confident and nice when I asked them about jurisdiction.  

So, if the officer doesn't see you enter the water from their jurisdiction and a MD DC or VA officer says wading is not illegal where you are it seems that the "wading" offense is bunk.  

Also, I was written a ticket for parking at Gravelly on the grass the other day.  That was strange because there were about 40 other cars doing the same thing but I was the only one fishing.  Maybe a coincidence but I was able to talk my way out of it.  Sounds like they are cracking down at gravelly.  be careful guys.

[stevest...@gmail.com]

Rich,
Great idea involving DU. As a duck/goose hunter I know people with blinds in those areas. I also happen to know (very well, goose blind syndicate partner) the Fed affairs lead for DU. I will send you his email address and an intro.

Steve

On Thursday, May 30, 2013 7:14:26 PM UTC-4, Richard Farino wrote:

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[TurbineBlade]

Okay, so we have stuf fall over the place here -- to avoid confusion I'd just ask everyone:

1.  What can I/we do to help?  

2   Can we please discuss this at the next beer tie?  If this isn't important, I don't know what is.  

Thanks to everyone (e.g. Rich, Steve, etc.) for taking the time to provide information on this.   

Gene 

[Speycaster]

I doubt it matters that they see you enter the water as it would be implied that you entered from the shore thus ticket stands as evidenced by aforementioned post.

[McFly]

It's hard to believe that someone who fishes public water in a public park for one didn't notice the signs saying park closed at dusk and two can't see the danger of being in the water at night alone next to a freakin airport after 911.

[Daniel Davala]

I hope my silence on this matter has not been too much of a concern, I am deeply interested in what has transpired here.  Trent Jones and I were well off the grid backpacking and back country fishing on Slate Run in North Central PA when all of this went down, which means at precisely the moment our Remick was being cited we were well into a bottle of Buffalo Trace, stoking the camp fire and telling stories while reveling in the memories of wild browns earlier in the day.  A trip report would seem prudent but this issue is far more important at the moment.  (In short though - the fishing was phenomenal).

 

First, a few thank-you(s) are in order to some of you who have been instrumental in keeping this thread on track.  Thanks to Remick for bringing the situation to light, and for keeping your head and candor rather than simply ranting or reacting.  Thank you to Rob Snowhite and Mike B. (Animal) for going right to work digging up the statutes so everyone had a baseline on which to form an opinion.  BIG THANKS to Richie for being proactive and making good use of your contacts and resources, actually getting some key people on the phone to clarify at least the current interpretation of these statutes and regulations.  I also think your decision to involve DU was good thinking.  Thanks to Dalton for pulling up previous posts to show the lack of consistency regarding wading the Duck Pond, I remember that run-in very well.  BIG THANKS to Steve Moore for chiming in with an incredibly organized and well-written account of your dealings with this topic.  That took a lot of time which is most appreciated, and as Mike B. said, it answers many of the questions posed here.  And thanks to everyone else on the thread for making the conscious choice with each post to keep the discussion clean and on topic.  I am super proud of everyone for that and I am most thankful for the fact that I can be away for a while and not worry about the forum derailing, even when something major like this occurs - so thanks again for that.

 

I am a big believer in being quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to anger, especially in situations like this, so I wanted to read and re-read this thread a few times before weighing in.  It can be hard to remain objective if the focus becomes too personal, too much about my own individual access to favorite fishing areas, or even the club's at large.  Having read through the thread several times, I agree 100% with Richie and his initial assessment when he wrote, "The real problem here is finding out why you’re not allowed to wade in a navigable waterway “period”."  I believe this is absolutely spot on and the much deeper issue here, and I believe this is where our focus and efforts should be directed.  How we go about this can have a major impact Nationally, and that impact can be either positive or severely negative depending on how we proceed.  We have an opportunity here to set a hard precedent about a serious access issue that can help or hinder similar situations across the country where angling access is being challenged.  This is a National issue for sure, it has been dropped on our laps, and I believe we have all been assembled for such a time as this.  But we must "wade carefully", with wisdom, clarity of thought, and a concerted effort if we are to have a lasting impact, far greater than just a local one.  (Sorry, couldn't resist the pun).

 

When I got back to the shop on Friday, and before I had time to chime in on this discussion, I was able to get my friend Brandon H. from the Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership (TRCP) involved and they are absolutely willing to help.  You all may remember Brandon as the one who connected us with Mia Sheppard when she was in town, after which we aided and abetted her in apparently breaking the law while teaching a SPEY CLINIC for our club.  For anyone unfamiliar with TRCP, please take a moment to understand their MISSION AND VISION.  Of the many conservation organizations I have had the privilege and pleasure to work with, the folks at TRCP are among my favorites - these people get things done, and they know how to do it.  I particularly love their mantra, "Washington, D.C., is where habitat happens!".  So, you see, our issue at hand is right up their alley - this is what they do.  I/we should be hearing from Brandon soon after he does a little digging and makes a few contacts.

 

We also have good friends in the American Sport Fishing Association (ASA) and have we partnered with them and their events in the past.  Again, being that this is a much bigger, National issue and not just a local fly community one, some folks at the ASA certainly have an interest here.  Access to fishing opportunities is at the core of THEIR MISSION, so again, if we treat this as a BIG PICTURE problem we have some very strong allies right in our own backyard.

 

In the meantime, the question at large is "what can we do".  Well, we're off to a good start in keeping our composure, complying peacefully with officer's when we do have encounters with enforcement, and do our best to respect the regulations as we understand them at present.  The last thing we need is to establish a bad reputation on the local level by mouthing off to or even scowling at authorities when they question or even cite us.  Those of you who remember the 80's know this approach didn't work out very well for skateboarding ("Ride a skate - go to jail!").  We should do our best on this forum to curb even tongue in cheek posts or slights at the authorities as well, at least from here on.  Some of it could come back to bite, even if it's funny. 

 

I will not be at the next BEER TIE as I will be fishing in Belize, but we will have at least a few TPFR officers on hand and I will leave them in charge of public comments.  Moreover, I will prepare a petition that at least shows we are interested in exploring and eventually challenging these statutes that restrict our public access to a navigable waterway, in this case, out Nation's River.  I'll have one of the officer's circulate the petition and have all interested parties sign it and provide contact information.  This will help when it is time to organize for public comment periods when changes in the regulations are up for discussion.  We can put out a similar online survey shortly thereafter for those who cannot attend BEER TIE.

 

In the long run, I think we will be best served by a multi-pronged, organized approach.  These prongs should include sport/fly fishing retailers (Urban Angler, Orvis Shops, Bean, etc., but also perhaps Dick's, Bass Pro, etc.).  Those of us in the tackle business have a vested interest in people's right to access good fishing.  The local prong should consist of TPFR, PRSC, TU Chapters, DU chapters, etc.  On a conservation and non-profit front, we have TRCP, ASA, DU, TU National, and others.  If we take our time, think slow, and move wisely, I firmly believe we can impact access issues across this country for the positive, and for many years to come.  On the other hand, I strongly caution the sentiment of "Bringing the Thunder", etc.  Coming in on the hard offensive is surely to raise the defenses of the opposition, and "lawyering up" for the wrong or mis-directed reasons can significantly impact the big picture.  Remick may just be stuck with the ticket in this case, since even if he beats the wading issue he was still technically trespassing.  A judge is not likely to overlook that aspect.  I have no problem with TPFRers pulling together a few bucks to help with the ticket though - Gene, you're in charge of that at the next BEER TIE.  We're always happy to help out one of our own.   

 

I have a bit more to say on the topic but have to head in to the shop.  Let's keep the discussion open and going.  Great job to all once again for keeping it all on track.

 

Dan Davala

 

 

 

 

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[TurbineBlade]

Sweet!  I've always wanted to hassle money out of people a la GoodFellas.  

How about $5.00 for the "it could have been you" fund for Remick.  

BTW - I want to see a trip report Dan!  I need to catch brown trout vicariously!   

Gene

[TurbineBlade]

Wait-- Remick, you didn't look like this guy when the officer approached right?  

[HeaveToo]

Starting a petition is an excellent idea but I would suggest having an electronic petition.  Friends of the Chesapeake Bay did this in the past and it enables us to get the issue out to a larger group of people and get more attention to the issue.

Virginia outdoors men and women are environmental and conservation minded.  A lot of the money from our licenses goes towards conservation.  You also will see a large majority of fly fishermen practicing catch and release and safe fish handing methods.  All of these factors should put good light on us as a group.

[TurbineBlade]

Several days ago I emailed NPS and they just now responded to me.  I read it and thanked him for his response -- 

Contrasting with what Rich was told, this guy told me that Roaches Run is managed no differently than Gravelly Point and that it is equally illegal to wade there as well.  

Just thought I'd toss this out there in case anyone was still fishing RRWR -- I don't want to see anyone else getting ticketed.  

Hopefully we can do some "convincing" with the higher-ups and secure these spots so there isn't so much confusion about what the law is.  

Gene

[TurbineBlade]

Here's the response I received just FYI -- 

I'm looking forward to helping correct this.  And like Dan mentioned, not being an idiot is probably the best approach.  ;)  

Thank you for your email noting your concerns about the regulations regarding wading in waters under the control of the National Park Service, specifically 36 CFR 7.96 (e).

The George Washington Memorial Parkway (GWMP) is patrolled by officers from the United States Park Police District 2 Station. The District 2 Station Commander is Lt. Jerry Marshall, who is currently on leave therefore I will address your email.

Before I address your questions, I must advise you that I cannot discuss the citation per se, as it was issued to another person and is pending court proceedings.

The U.S. Park Police officers that patrol the GWMP, are dedicated to providing the highest level of police service possible. They are tasked with enforcing the laws and regulations of the United States Codes, 36 Code of Federal Regulations, applicable State laws, laws of the District of Columbia and Park Compendiums. They however cannot detect every violation of the law nor cite every violator. Therefore, some violations may repeatedly occur undetected, causing some confusion with individuals believing the acts are accepted or legal. However, citizens should research and review all regulations applicable to areas they visit or engage in activities at.

36 CFR 7.96 (e), specifically states, “Bathing, swimming or wading in any fountain or pool except where officially authorized is prohibited. Bathing, swimming or wading in the Tidal Basin, the Chesapeake and Ohio Canal, or Rock Creek, or entering from other areas covered by this section the Potomac River, Anacostia River, Washington Channel or Georgetown Channel, except for the purpose of saving a drowning person, is prohibited. 

You make reference to “the Duck Pond”, which I presume is actually the “Roaches Run Waterfowl Sanctuary” (RRWS), located west of the GWMP, adjacent the Roaches Run parking area. Gravelly Point lies on the east side of the GWMP across the road from this area. If so, then to answer your questions, this area (RRWS) is considered part of the Potomac River, managed and controlled by the National Park Service and has the same restrictions.

The “Applicability and Scope” of 36 CFR is outlined in 36 CFR 1.2, which in part states:

“(a) The regulations contained in this chapter apply to all persons entering, using, visiting, or otherwise within:” …

 …“(3) Waters subject to the jurisdiction of the United States located within the boundaries of the National Park System, including navigable waters and areas within their ordinary reach (up to the mean high water line in places subject to the ebb and flow of the tide and up to the ordinary high water mark in other places) and without regard to the ownership of submerged lands, tidelands, or lowlands;”

These regulations are designed to promote the highest level of public safety and resource protection.

You can review these and other regulations applicable to the GWMP on their website at, http://www.nps.gov/gwmp/index.htm, under “Laws & Policies”.

I hope this answers your questions and appreciate you taking the time to provide us with your concerns.

Should you ever have an emergency or require police service, please contact the United States Park Police Communications Section at 202-610-7500. (Non-emergency: 202-610-7505)

Sincerely,

Captain Art Jacobsen

West District Commander,

Patrol Branch

United States Park Police

Office:703-285-1000

[MATTH...@aol.com]

My apartment overlooks Roaches Run and virtually every day, including yesterday, I see one or more people wading and fishing in there. Also kayakers who, presumably, have to get their feet wet (wade) when they launch.

 

Stuart

 

In a message dated 6/4/2013 5:55:37 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, doubl...@gmail.com writes:

Several days ago I emailed NPS and they just now responded to me.  I read it and thanked him for his response -- 

Contrasting with what Rich was told, this guy told me that Roaches Run is managed no differently than Gravelly Point and that it is equally illegal to wade there as well.  

Just thought I'd toss this out there in case anyone was still fishing RRWR -- I don't want to see anyone else getting ticketed.  

Hopefully we can do some "convincing" with the higher-ups and secure these spots so there isn't so much confusion about what the law is.  

Gene

On Monday, June 3, 2013 9:26:51 AM UTC-4, HeaveToo wrote:

Starting a petition is an excellent idea but I would suggest having an electronic petition.  Friends of the Chesapeake Bay did this in the past and it enables us to get the issue out to a larger group of people and get more attention to the issue.

Virginia outdoors men and women are environmental and conservation minded.  A lot of the money from our licenses goes towards conservation.  You also will see a large majority of fly fishermen practicing catch and release and safe fish handing methods.  All of these factors should put good light on us as a group.

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[Bryan Lanier]

I disagree that you have to wade to launch a kayak or canoe. Yes, you get your feet wet as you stand in the water prior to entering said craft.

But standing in water is not wading. Webster's defines wading as "Walking through a substance that yields to the feet, as through water or sand.." The act of standing in water is not wading. But to fish while standing in water is wading as you must "walk" through the water to get from fishing spot to fishing spot or from the shore to your fishing spot.

To quote Bill Clinton (sort of) "What is the definition of 'is'?" Or in this case "wading?"

Humbly submitted,

Bryan Lanier

 

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[Matthew Longley]

I launch my canoe without getting my feet wet all the time.  But this is getting a bit besides the point...

Gene, thanks for checking in on that.  At the very least, I think all parties can agree that the laws need to be updated for clarity.  Yes, it is every citizen's responsibility to know the laws, but when law enforcement spokesmen are providing drastically different answers to very straightforward questions regarding the law, the burden on the citizen is arguably unjust.

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[MATTH...@aol.com]

Bryan

 

Technically, I think you are right. But recent posts and the response from the NPS seems to indicate that entering the Potomac is forbidden from NPS controlled areas so that getting your feet wet, let alone your shins or, heaven forbid, your thighs, might seem to qualify for a ticket!

 

Stuart

 

 

[FlyTimesDC]

I really appreciate all the support on this guys. It's easy to keep a positive attitude with the support of this group and knowing that we are all in this struggle to open navigable waterways for public access. Like you all, I'm hopeful that we can make some substantial change here as this is a much larger issue than a simple citation.  As urban anglers - we are essentially handcuffed or confined to a finite amount of places to fish that are A) safe and B) consistently productive. We all share a special connection to the water - whether it be for relaxation, personal pleasure, or escape - and to have no legal access (or extremely limited access) to our Nation's River is sad. I'll admit, 2:30 in the morning is a strange hour to be fishing...but over the previous three nights, the bite on the outgoing tide was incredible. Nothing but giant carp, gar, and blue cats, Every bite took me deep into my backing. Not a single small fish. Just one of those streaks that you never want to end. While I'm not looking forward to fighting this citation (Dan, you're probably right, I don't really have an argument against trespassing except there being no posted signs or warnings about park closure & Gene - you are the man for spearheading the "It could have been you fund") - I do look forward to having the discussion and joining forces with other like-minded organizations to reopen our Nation's River. Looking forward to a great next beer tie.

Thanks,

Remick

On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 9:04:45 AM UTC-4, Stuart M wrote:

My apartment overlooks Roaches Run and virtually every day, including yesterday, I see one or more people wading and fishing in there. Also kayakers who, presumably, have to get their feet wet (wade) when they launch.

 

Stuart

 

In a message dated 6/4/2013 5:55:37 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, doubl...@gmail.com writes:

Several days ago I emailed NPS and they just now responded to me.  I read it and thanked him for his response -- 

Contrasting with what Rich was told, this guy told me that Roaches Run is managed no differently than Gravelly Point and that it is equally illegal to wade there as well.  

Just thought I'd toss this out there in case anyone was still fishing RRWR -- I don't want to see anyone else getting ticketed.  

Hopefully we can do some "convincing" with the higher-ups and secure these spots so there isn't so much confusion about what the law is.  

Gene

On Monday, June 3, 2013 9:26:51 AM UTC-4, HeaveToo wrote:

Starting a petition is an excellent idea but I would suggest having an electronic petition.  Friends of the Chesapeake Bay did this in the past and it enables us to get the issue out to a larger group of people and get more attention to the issue.

Virginia outdoors men and women are environmental and conservation minded.  A lot of the money from our licenses goes towards conservation.  You also will see a large majority of fly fishermen practicing catch and release and safe fish handing methods.  All of these factors should put good light on us as a group.

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[Jeffrey Silvan]

The legal wording of some of these regulations is getting me a bit confused - particularly, the "high water" part. By reading the sections of code and explanations, is it my understanding that it is simply illegal to ENTER the river from Park property? As in someone could be dropped off by boat to one of these locations, and as long as you are deeper than the "high water mark" it is then legal to be "wading" in the Potomac?

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[Paul Kalajainen]

I'm certainly no expert, but I've been re-reading this language that has been posted on this thread several times:

"Bathing, swimming or wading in any fountain or pool except where officially authorized is prohibited. Bathing, swimming or wading in the Tidal Basin, the Chesapeake and Ohio Canal, or Rock Creek, or entering from other areas covered by this section the Potomac River, Anacostia River, Washington Channel or Georgetown Channel, except for the purpose of saving a drowning person, is prohibited"

It seems to be a section of the law pertaining to swimming rather than fishing.  At least I imagine that was the intent when this was written.  I don't know the legitimacy of this argument or how well it would hold up, but I sincerely hope that out of this interaction we would be able to clarify with respect to the law the difference between entering the river to swim and entering the river to fish.

[Eric Y.]

Not to rain on your parade, but there is a white-on-brown park service sign at the entrance that notes the park hours as you enter the park.

[TurbineBlade]

Sure thing Eric -- I don't think anyone is denying that Remick was breaking a rule being there at 2:30 in the morning....but the citation was for "entering the Potomac" not "trespassing".  If he was ticketed just for being there after hours, we wouldn't have much to discuss here...but it seems that the real topic is the legality of entering the water to wade fish.  

When the Wilson Bridge pedestrian/cyclist trail was installed the NPS attempted to also apply "hours" to the use of the trail since they considered it a "park".  Cyclists obviously viewed it as a transportation route and did NOT like this designation.  As a result, NPS chose not to apply "hours" to the use of the trail.  I'm sure something like this exemption could be made for our fishing spots.  

Paul - that was my thought too, especially since it is listed on the heading "swimming".    

Gene

[Richard Farino]

I got the same exact response.

 

I’m going to pen a message here in about 20 minutes letting you guys know exactly what I’m doing and where I’m at.

 

 

R

 

 

Richard Farino

Urban Angler VA | 108 N. Washington Street  2nd Floor | Alexandria, VA 22314

(703) 527-2524 | fax: (703) 527-3313 | ric...@urbanangler.com

 

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[Scott Stankus]

In addition to the organizations that Dan mentioned, it may be helpful and useful to reach out to the Potomac River Keeper, as well. I'll refrain from adding a link as they have an online store on their website, but a quick Google search yields their site. It couldn't hurt to have them on our side as well!

--Scott

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For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

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================================================

"There are 10 types of people in this world, those who know binary, and those who don't"

[Dalton Terrell]

Sorry, there was some kind of technical problem and the following post from Victor Kernus isn't showing up (randomly flagged as spam though it isn't). The following text is his and not mine:

I have been giving this matter a lot of thought lately. Looking at the language in the statute, it would seem that prohibited actions are all related to one activity, i.e. swimming. That is entering the water to Bathe, swim, or wade are all activities that can fall under the general heading of swimming. I believe that a strong argument can be made that the term "wade" relates to the swimming definition of the term, not the use we apply as fisherman. As is known in law, ambiguity in a statute goes against the drafter, I think that an argument can be made that the statute is ambiguous. Remick might want to consider arguing that he did not interpret the statute to cover wading in the fishing sense, but rather the statute only covered wading in the swimming sense. Just a thought.


Moving forward, we may want to enter into discussions with the Park Service to see how we may be able to wade safely. The purpose of the statute would seem to be safety related. The Park Service can cite to the number of fisherman that drown every year to support why wading should be prohibited. We could propose that fisherman should wear a PFD when entering the water to fish.

[Eric Y.]

Gene, I was specifically referring to this: "I don't really have an argument against trespassing except there being no posted signs or warnings about park closure" which Remick said in the post above mine. I suppose he's lucky to get off with only one ticket, not one for entering the river and one for trespassing afterhours.

 

 

Re: swimming/wading, I think you'd be hard pressed to make a legitimate argument that wading for recreational fishing is vastly different from wading for the sake of wading. It seems pretty clear: your reason for wading is irelevant, unless you are saving a life. Liken it to speeding: speeding is clearly illegal. Speeding for the sake of speeding is no different than speeding because you're late to work, whereas momentarily exceeding the speed limit to get to the next intersection so that an ambulance can pass you without braking is an exception most LEOs would make.

[vkernus]

Eric,

 

Swimming and fishing are two very different activities.  If one read the statute to read Bathing, Swimming and wading as different forms of swimming, then the wading could arguably not include fishing.  It is all a matter of interpretation and as I noted, ambiguity goes against the drafter.  It would be for a judge to decide whether the confusion is reasonable.  If wading were meant to include fishing, the statute could have stated, for example, that fishing is from the shore only.  This is the rule upstream around fisherman's eddy no? 

[Dalton Terrell]

I think Victor's lawyering is exactly what is needed in the short term to help clarify this wading issue. Obviously in the longer term, we should advocate for less ambiguity in the statutes, increased safe wading access and better education of the NPS police officers.

On the trespassing issue, I do not believe that Remick was actually trespassing in the park at the moment the officer approached him if he was below the high water mark, which is probably why he didn't receive a ticket for this. The judge certainly cannot bring an additional charge of trespassing while Remick is in court.

Dalton

[Jeffrey Silvan]

Dalton - good point on the trespassing side. That touches some of the reasoning for why I asked my previous question - if being dropped off by boat directly into the water below the high water mark would technically be legal. Although one can make a completely reasonable assumption that someone fishing/wading in that spot entered from Park land, the officer would be writing a citation without actually knowing a violation occurred if he did not physically witness that person crossing the high water mark from the Park into the Potomac. I don't necessarily recommend using this as a defense, since I'm sure the judge would simply ask "well, did you enter from Park land?" and I'm not sure if/how attempting to exercise your 5th Amendment rights would work in this case.

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[Eric Y.]

 Swiming and fishing are very different, but I have never seen a distinction made between wading and wading while fishing - it would seem to be that wading is wading, regardless of what one is doing while  wading - but I'm no lawyer and certainly no judge. I have fished several bodies of water that post "No Swimming or Wading" signs where wading while fishing is an equally illegal activity, yet never run across a sign that read "No Swimming or Wading, Except While Fishing". To me, the issue isn't that the statute was interpreted incorrectly, but that the statute needs to be changed.

 

With regard to trespassing, I was also assuming that his car was parked in the lot and could have been ticketed for it.

[vkernus]

Dalton,

 

It would be highly unlikely for the Judge to bring forth an new complaint.  Ideally, Remick gets off without having to pay the fine and then we can work forward to clear up the ambiguity while striving to promote water safety.

 

Victor

[TurbineBlade]

Even if the fine is tossed (which would be excellent), he'll pay whatever court fees are around here (?).  So......I'll do my best to solicit at the next tie.  Usually I'm not so much the collection guy, but more the guy who chips in and then goes and hides in the background.  

Remember folks -- whether you agree with every detail or not.  It could have been you!  

[Brendan]

i'm all for clarifying the rules and ensuring safe access to the river... however, has anyone else been ticketed for this during normal business hours? I sympathize with the fine, but there are signs all over gravelly, roaches and elsewhere detailing access hours. Yea, the hours are kind of annoying tho i think they are in the public's best interest. 

perhaps was the officer was simply frustrated with always having to kick people out despite the signs and decided to write a ticket... I was there after hours during Sandy shooting some stock photos/video of the storm and got an earful even tho i had never left the truck.  Perhaps wading is cheaper than trespassing or whatever the fine is for being there after hours and it was even done as a backwards favor. who knows. i've certainly fished locations after hours, there was an old company owned lake in PA that had some of the best night time fishing that i'd sneak in for, but i knew if i got caught i'd walk away with some kinda citation.  

so for years while wading here was a non-issue w/ NPS, now it is an issue... which goes back to the point, has anyone ever had trouble during normal hours when the park is open? i'm not so sure this really is a 'could have been any of us' case.  rare is the trip to those spots where i don't see a park police officer at some point. but now they're aware of the poorly written rules and overlapping laws, tho without my adjectives, and it's open to interpretation and discretion. basically is raising hell about this one after hours incident when there haven't been any others worth the potential negative impact of aggressively pursuing clarification?

again, sorry for the ticket... and i am trying to work some NPS back channels to make this go away... but, just a thought. 

b

[pmk00001]

Virginia's public fishing lakes specifically ban wading and swimming but allow wading while fishing.  Here's an example.

http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/fishing/waterbodies/display.asp?id=98&section=regulations

[Eric Y.]

Interesting, thanks for that. I'm on my way out the door so I didn't read it too closely, but I didn't see a specific ban on wading (while not fishing), just swimming. I could have missed it, though - I am not a morning person. 

Either way, maybe I'm sympathizing with the drafter here, but if I ever saw a sign or statute that said "no swimming or wading" or "no entering the water" etc, I would never think "well, that doesn't apply to me, because I'm fishing." Maybe I'm too much of a rule follower.

[Dalton Terrell]

As a follow up to Richie, Steve Moore and the current discussion about exemptions of wading while fishing, I have found the current statute on swimming and wading from in the C&O Canal Park, which does not apply in Remick's case but I think is of value. The statute in the C&O Canal Compendium, dated 12/13/2011 is this:

3.16 Swimming or Wading in Park Waters

(a)(1) Areas closed to swimming and wading (except fishing)

1. Areas designated in 36 CF section 7.96 (e)

2. Waters of the canal prism and basins

My reading of this is that you are allowed to swim and wade in all C&O Canal park waters except for those laid out 36 CFR 7.96 (e) (in this case refers to Washington, DC and Montgomery County) and the canal itself, however, you are allowed to wade and fish in all C&O Canal Park waters. With this language, it is clear that Sergeant Locasio, who spoke to Richie and wrote Remick's citation, is mistaken about fishing while wading and even swimming/wading in the Potomac along the C&O Canal.

Given this statute, with an explicit exemption for wading while fishing, it appears that you could much more easily fight a ticket given while wading and fishing the treacherous waters near Chain Bridge than the relative safe inlet at Gravelly Point.

As another note, the wording of this statute changed between the 2010 Compendium (dated 7/2/2010) and the 2011 version listed above:

3.16 Swimming or Wading in Park Waters

(a)(1) Areas closed to swimming and wading

1. Areas designated in 36 CFR section 7.96 (e)

(e) Swimming, Bathing, swimming [Dalton's interjection: swimming is doubly prohibited] or wading in any fountain or pool except where officially authorized is prohibited. Bathing, swimming or wading in the Tidal Basin, the Chesapeake and Ohio Canal, or Rock Creek, or entering from other areas covered by this section the Potomac River, Anacostia River, Washington Channel, or Georgetown Channel, except for the purpose of saving a drowning person, is prohibited.

(District of Columbia and Montgomery County, Maryland)

2. Waters of the canal prism and basins

As you see above, in 2010 and the the statutes that Steve Moore and Richie pasted from 2001 and 2004, respectively, have no exemption for wading while fishing but the 2011 version does.

Dalton

[McFly]

The DNR and Park Service may be willing to permit wading if you can make a good case for Gravelly Point. The main problem is that the current can be strong in this area at times and some fisherman don't use good judgement. If you can get them to allow wading during daylight hours from the boat ramp to the entrance of the duck pond that will be a big win for us, and in cases of strong tidal flow the DNR and Park Service has the authority to suspend wading until the tide calms down, it's a small safe area that both the DNR and Park service can deal with and the issue of wading in a strong tidal flow will be handled before it comes up.

On Thursday, May 30, 2013 10:08:55 AM UTC-4, FlyTimesDC wrote:

So last night I was fishing the outgoing tide at gravelly point around 2:30 am when a park officer called me out of the water saying the park closed at 12 (I've never heard of the inlet our outflow ever being closed but left without resistance). He then asked to see my license, which I promptly gave him, and we went back to his car. I'm pretty sure he was looking for any excuse to ticket me, because he then sat in his car for about 10 minutes reading up on ordinances and rules. When he returned, he gave me back my licenses and a $130 fine for "Entering the Potomac". Umm, what? I have a court date in June and plan on fighting this. There are no signs or anything else to indicate that A) wading is illegal in the inlet and B) that the inlet is closed at 12am. Curious to hear y'all's thoughts. I've heard of people being hassled by airport police at Gravelly but this is a tad ridiculous.

Thanks,

Remick

[James Russell]

What became of this? News and/or progress made?

[Lucas Rudd]

had two run-ins while fishing with the pigs. onece, a guy gave me a tickit for keeping a 14" perch. The tickit was for keeping an undersized rockfish. The other time, I was fishing at the northwest branch for crappies and got a ticket for being in front of the dam fence

[Lucas Rudd]

dude, u shouldn't ever wade in 4mr, I had a pair of shoes actully disolve after accidently slipping and falling in under the bridge. Onece while wearing a neuclear suit and waders, I had a catfish grab my hand while I was lipping a bass. Never wade in 4mr

On Thursday, May 30, 2013 1:17:04 PM UTC-4, TurbineBlade wrote:

One more -- based on this ticket, could you be ticketed wading 4MR for "entering the Potomac"?  

Gene

On Thursday, May 30, 2013 1:10:19 PM UTC-4, TurbineBlade wrote:

Also add -- anyone who fishes GP really should send at least a concerned message about this.  Remick received a ticket, but it could have just as easily been me or anyone else out there.  

Law is law, but there's a certain unethical feeling when the officer had to look up the regulations in a book in order to determine how to craft a ticket.  If NPS doesn't even understand the law well, it seems to me that a simple warning follow up with better signage at GP would suffice.  

Gene

On Thursday, May 30, 2013 1:03:46 PM UTC-4, TurbineBlade wrote:

Thanks for posting this Rich -- I just sent a quick message.  

Another question is this -- if wading rock creek is illegal except for the purpose of saving a drowning person, how is it that DC government (DDOE) water quality is able to electroshock 3 sections of it every year legally?  Are they in violation of the law for doing this?  I worked there for 2 years and never even gave a thought to whether wading was legal or not.  

Gene

[Trent Jones]

To my knowledge the only thing that has changed is that people have stopped fishing GP @ 2AM...I have popped over to GP a couple times in the last few weeks and had no problems, even when a stray  squad car makes a pass.....go fish it!
 
-Trent 

---

Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 15:26:17 -0700
From: jwr...@verizon.net

To: tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com
Subject: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Re: Illegal to wade Gravelly Point

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