Noob Question: Line Choice

[DaveSurfs]

Good Morning TPFR,

I'm new to fly fishing, have a 9ft 5WT TFO Rod and TFO Prism reel. The guy I bought the (used) reel from said it had a "standard 5Wt weight forward line," but unfortunately I was not smart enough to ask what kind, or how long it's been on the reel?

It seems to cast reasonably, and I've caught a few bluegill, small mouth, and large mouth bass, but with Christmas a couple months away, I was thinking of making gift giving easy for my wife and asking for a new Fly line.

With that in mind, I see all sorts of WF5Wt options from Scientific Angler, Rio, Orvis, TFO, and others at prices ranging from $29 to $100... Any thoughts on what to buy? If you have a recommendation, would you please help me understand why you recommend A vs B?

Additionally, I've seen some commentary on going up 1 weight and putting a 6WT line on a 5WT Rod? Any thoughts there?

Thanks,

Dave

I apologize if this question is covered elsewhere in the forum and my searches didn't find something that's already posted.

[Richard Farino]

What TFO rod is it?

Richard Farino

Urban Angler VA | 108 N. Washington Street  2nd Floor | Alexandria, VA 22314 

(703) 527-2524 | fax: (703) 527-3313 | ric...@urbanangler.com    

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[Dave DiEugenio]

TFO Lefty Kreh Professional Series II.

Thanks,

Dave 

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[DaveSurfs]

TFO Lefty Kreh Professinoal Series II

Thanks,

Dave

On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 12:03:16 PM UTC-4, Richard Farino wrote:

What TFO rod is it?

Richard Farino

Urban Angler VA | 108 N. Washington Street  2nd Floor | Alexandria, VA 22314 

(703) 527-2524 | fax: (703) 527-3313 | ric...@urbanangler.com    

From: Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders <tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of DaveSurfs <dave.di...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders <tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 11:49 AM
To: Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders <tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Noob Question: Line Choice

Good Morning TPFR,

I'm new to fly fishing, have a 9ft 5WT TFO Rod and TFO Prism reel. The guy I bought the (used) reel from said it had a "standard 5Wt weight forward line," but unfortunately I was not smart enough to ask what kind, or how long it's been on the reel?

It seems to cast reasonably, and I've caught a few bluegill, small mouth, and large mouth bass, but with Christmas a couple months away, I was thinking of making gift giving easy for my wife and asking for a new Fly line.

With that in mind, I see all sorts of WF5Wt options from Scientific Angler, Rio, Orvis, TFO, and others at prices ranging from $29 to $100... Any thoughts on what to buy? If you have a recommendation, would you please help me understand why you recommend A vs B?

Additionally, I've seen some commentary on going up 1 weight and putting a 6WT line on a 5WT Rod? Any thoughts there?

Thanks,

Dave

I apologize if this question is covered elsewhere in the forum and my searches didn't find something that's already posted.

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[Carl Smolka]

Dave,

If you Google “which fly line” , there is a good article on this topic by Lefty Kreh and also one on the Orvis site. Lots of variables and lots of opinions.

Tight Lines,

Carl

 

From: tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of DaveSurfs
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 11:49 AM
To: Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders <tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Noob Question: Line Choice

 

Good Morning TPFR,

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[TurbineBlade]

That's a medium/fast rod, good rod (we own and regularly use 2 of them). 

If you want to make casts with "larger" flies for warm water, you can easily put a 6-weight line on it and call it a 6-weight (as far as I'm concerned).  I once grabbed a reel with a 4-weight line on the way to fish for brook trout, so I called it a 4-weight that day.  It makes little difference. 

Don't overthink line choice too much -- I will admit that I prefer lines with shorter heads for warm and SW fishing as it takes fewer false casts to shoot line to the target.  For trout I couldn't care less. 

Gene

On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 12:07:17 PM UTC-4, DaveSurfs wrote:

TFO Lefty Kreh Professinoal Series II

Thanks,

Dave

On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 12:03:16 PM UTC-4, Richard Farino wrote:

What TFO rod is it?

Richard Farino

Urban Angler VA | 108 N. Washington Street  2nd Floor | Alexandria, VA 22314 

(703) 527-2524 | fax: (703) 527-3313 | ric...@urbanangler.com    

[Richard Farino]

Dave,

As a noob, you happen to have a pretty good rod for learning how to cast properly and to get the rod to do what you want.

The rod is a medium-fast rod, and for trout fishing I would suggest a standard WF5F line.  This will load the road properly with 30’ of line out of the tip top (along with your leader and fly) and will enable you cast properly as well as learn whether you’re a fisherman who likes to carry lots of line in the air, or carry a minimum amount and shoot line to reach further targets.

Heavier lines will make the rod load with less line out and make it easier to throw larger  bulky or heavier patterns, but the line will land harder, and with more line out will overload the rod.

All the manufacturers make great lines rated for the proper line weight.  Rio makes a Rio Gold, Scientific Anglers makes a Mastery Trout line (my preference), Orvis makes a Hydros Trout (coincidentally, made by Scientific Anglers, as Orvis owns SA now).

They’re all around the $79 price point and are great lines and perform well as long as you take care of them.

Regards,

R

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[Yambag Nelson]

Generally good to switch lines out every couple years so if you think it has been on there for awhile, probably good to switch it out. 

 

I usually prefer lines in drab colors (say dark green) but some would say that color doesn't matter.  But yes, a standard weight forward line from any of the companies you mentioned should be good.   I am partial to rio or scientific anglers but I have never casted them side by side to say that one is better than the other..  Seems like most decent lines are in the $70 range these days.

 

I would not recommend overlining on that rod, especially if you are going to use it for trout fishing.   

[TurbineBlade]

I read some Lefty article where he was saying that it is better to "underline" a rod by a weight for windy conditions because the smaller diameter of lighter weight fly lines "cuts the wind" better. 

Of course, physics says that this is indeed true, but is more than compensated for by the increase in mass that you get with heavier fly lines.  Go stand on a windy SW flat with a 6-weight and an 8-weight and let me know how it goes. 

I stopped reading his articles after that. 

Gene

On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 12:31:42 PM UTC-4, TurbineBlade wrote:

That's a medium/fast rod, good rod (we own and regularly use 2 of them). 

If you want to make casts with "larger" flies for warm water, you can easily put a 6-weight line on it and call it a 6-weight (as far as I'm concerned).  I once grabbed a reel with a 4-weight line on the way to fish for brook trout, so I called it a 4-weight that day.  It makes little difference. 

Don't overthink line choice too much -- I will admit that I prefer lines with shorter heads for warm and SW fishing as it takes fewer false casts to shoot line to the target.  For trout I couldn't care less. 

Gene

On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 12:07:17 PM UTC-4, DaveSurfs wrote:

TFO Lefty Kreh Professinoal Series II

Thanks,

Dave

On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 12:03:16 PM UTC-4, Richard Farino wrote:

What TFO rod is it?

Richard Farino

Urban Angler VA | 108 N. Washington Street  2nd Floor | Alexandria, VA 22314 

(703) 527-2524 | fax: (703) 527-3313 | ric...@urbanangler.com    

[Yambag Nelson]

I agree that it does sound dumb, but the dude is a ridiculously good fly caster.  Maybe what he says is true for the top .001% of casters. 

[DaveSurfs]

Thanks for all the feedback. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your willingness to share. 

I've fished spinning gear for nearly 4 decades and am excited about chasing fish a new (to me at least) way.

I look forward to learning more on the forum and ultimately sharing some myself as I start to figure things out.

Tight Lines,

Dave

[Matthew Longley]

I'll offer a contrarian opinion for the heck of it - I wouldn't get a new line at all.

If the line you currently have is functional, I would keep using it for a while. Fly fishing is a sport of opinions, and if you are just starting you probably don't have enough experience to really have much of an opinion on this subject. I would get some more experience on your current rig, try out other people's rigs, get a feel for what you like and don't like, and make a more informed purchase later on. Most people don't do that, and it's why most people have a collection of lines they don't use, accumulated before they actually figured out what they wanted (me included).

Of course, I love buying new gear as much as the next guy, so if you have 80 bucks burning a hole in your pocket, don't let me stop you!

On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 11:49:26 AM UTC-4, DaveSurfs wrote:

[TurbineBlade]

+1 to Matthew's post ^^.  I'm that guy. 

Also, for about the 3rd time I have to agree with Yambag. 

What a week! 

Gene

[Ashley Frohwein]

http://www.ginkandgasoline.com/fly-fishing-tips-technique/understanding-fly-line-tapers-and-diagrams/ 

[Danny Barrett]

I have become a fan or AirFlo recently.  They just seem to cast very well for me.  I have not had any of my lines past 4 years tho, so I can not speak about how long they will hold up.  But like other guys said, if you can test a few.  That is the best way to go. 

Thanks,

Dan Barrett

dannyt...@gmail.com

(540)-222-8064

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[Carl Z.]

Some rules I work with are:

If the line comes off the reel and looks like a corkscrew (or phone handset cord for those of us who can remember) and stretching the line does not uncurl it, you need a new line. 

If the like is supposed to be floating, but after an hour of fishing (or less) just doesn't float (starts to sink) you probably need a new line.

Also, while I'm sure the new $80 lines are nice, there are some really good $30 lines.  I wouldn't spend over about $50 unless there was some really good reason that was quantifiable.  I haven't come across one of those reasons for a 5wt line.

Also, I think it's more important to have different lines  A DT line behaves different than a WF line and on a 5wt rod you might want to try a 6wt line.  Spare spools of different reels are nice, but you can pull the line off and store it in a loose coil in a ziplock bag as well.  It isn't quick change but it doesn't take that much time to respool a line.

To be honest, I just bought some used lines recently.  They have a lot of life in them and for the bass bugging and practice casting I often do, these were perfect.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tidal-potomac-fly-rodders/CAG1ZA-vPLh8VyftwMMs2cwy2j9d%2BwEe0f%2BBzdQ7pWNTpn-%2BWkw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Derek Douglas]

Dave,

I have the same rod! I like Rio Gold WF for all around fishing. Good for newer fishermen as it changes color at ~30 feet for a reference. Obviously pretty slick stuff as well.

[D. Walker]

is it just me or are all the new lines on the market 2 colors?

[DaveSurfs]

Thanks again for all the great perspectives. I really appreciate your willingness to help overcome the start up inertia.

Ashely's article was particularly helpful in understanding all the different types of line out there.

Carl, where did you find used lines? (eBay?)

Thanks,

Dave

[namfos]

Dittos on Matt's view as well as Gene's  - I'm cheap so I'd work with what I've got. Clean the line while unspooling it (mild detergent) and when it's dry apply some ArmorAll. You'd be amazed how much better a seemingly "junk" line will perform.

Mark

[Dave J]

This article? - http://www.scientificanglers.com/choose-right-fly-line-weight/. This actually makes sense...

"There is a second situation where a lighter than normal line will help you if you are a fairly good caster. The wind is blowing and you need to reach out to a distant target. Many try to solve this common problem by using a line one size heavier. The usual thinking is that a heavier line allows them to throw more weight and, they hope, get more distance. Actually, going to a heavier line means that they complicate the problem.

On a cast, the line unrolls toward the target in a loop form. The larger the loop, the more energy is thrown in a direction that is not at the target. When fishermen overload a fly rod with a line heavier than the manufacturer calls for, they cause the rod to flex more deeply, which creates larger loops on longer casts. Overloading the rod wastes casting energy by not directing it at the target.

If you switch to a lighter line, you may not have enough weight outside the rod tip to cause the rod to load or flex properly — if you hold the normal amount of line outside the rod during casting. But if you extend this lighter line about 10 feet or a little more outside the rod than you normally would for this cast under calm conditions, you can cast a greater distance into the wind. By extending the additional amount of lighter line outside the rod, you cause it to flex as if you were false casting the normal length of the recommended line size.

Since the rod is now flexing properly, it will deliver tight loops, but the lighter line is thinner. This means that there will be less air resistance encountered on the cast."

On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 12:34:33 PM UTC-4, TurbineBlade wrote:

[TurbineBlade]

I disagree, with respect!  ;) 

Sure, a heavier fly line will make the same rod load as though it has more line out of the tip, that's not in dispute.  What he's saying though is that this "hampers" making the cast in wind because it results in bigger loops....which is totally untrue.  A good caster will compensate for having more line out of the tip (or overlining) without thinking about it.  I can throw very tight loops with my old, slow action fenwick ff80 (7wt) loaded with a 8.5 weight fly line and do so regularly.  I'll post a video if anyone doubts it -- you adjust your cast naturally, it's simple.  I guarantee I can cast that rod further and more easily in wind using an 8-weight line than I can that same rod underlined with a 6-weight (thinner) fly line. 

Why not take his advice further and take the same rod he's talking about and drop to a much, much thinner 3-weight line in the wind?  Just keep extending 10 feet and another 10 feet until the rod thinks it is casting a 6-weight line up close, and you'll be the king of the SW flats fly fishing! 

His argument includes ideas that make sense, but the overall logic just isn't there.... 

None of this is a big deal, but if you have your entire life to think about fly casting you should get it right.  ;) 

Gene

[Howard Abramowitz]

I hate to say it, but Gene is right. The logic applied to the lighter line is better is flawed. 

The momentum (mass*velocity) of the line carries the fly. A heavier line results in more momentum. Drag, caused by wind, is proportional to the cross sectional area that faces the flow, which would be the diameter of the fly line times the height of the loop. Making the assumption that a 6 wt and an 8 wt fly line have the same density and length and are cylindrical in shape, the change in mass is proportional to the diameter squared. A hypothetical example, where the diameter of the fly line doubles the mass would actually increase by 4. So at the same velocity the momentum would be 4 times greater while the drag only doubles (if the loops are the same height).

The actual ratios for the mass of a 6 and 8 wt line will not be 4, but the ratio of the diameters would be the square root of the mass ratio, making the heavier line easier to cast. 

As for loop height, I also agree with Gene that the casting stroke can be adjusted regardless of line size to make the loop tighter, which as the above implies would also decrease drag.  Also, in windy conditions carrying extra line when casting a 6 wt as suggested would be counter intuitive to me as it would make the casting more difficult. Extending this further using a heavier line would allow you to load the rod with less line outside the rod tip, which would make casting easier. But that is just my opinion.

Howard

[Richard Farino]

Look at the BIG BRAIN on BRAD!

Richard Farino

Urban Angler VA | 108 N. Washington Street  2nd Floor | Alexandria, VA 22314 

(703) 527-2524 | fax: (703) 527-3313 | ric...@urbanangler.com    

From: Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders <tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders <tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com>
Reply-To: Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders <tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 2:34 PM
To: Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders <tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com>

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[TurbineBlade]

You mind if I have some of your tasty beverage to wash this down with?

Gene

On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 3:15:59 PM UTC-4, Richard Farino wrote:

Look at the BIG BRAIN on BRAD!

Richard Farino

Urban Angler VA | 108 N. Washington Street  2nd Floor | Alexandria, VA 22314 

(703) 527-2524 | fax: (703) 527-3313 | ric...@urbanangler.com    

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[namfos]

Or if you're cheap like me, keep your WF line on one inexpensive reel and your DT on another inexpensive reel. That way you don't have to fumble around with spare spools and it's less labor than unspooling.

Mark

On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 9:42:14 PM UTC-4, Carl wrote:

Some rules I work with are:

[Dave J]

This is all interesting, for sure. More mass and velocity is better for distance, all else being equal. But is it all equal? Wouldn't heavier lines deform a given rod more as it bends, and therefore affect loop size, line speed, how much line you can carry, and how the rod recovers? 

With respect -- to take your example, Gene, and flip it: instead of going to a three weight line, take an eleven weight line on whatever mid-weight example we're using here. I doubt you will throw a tight loop a great distance by overlining that much, just as I won't gain the advantage described by going down several line weights. Of course, taking it to extremes and *grossly* over- or underlining might not make either point... maybe instead that takes this all into other properties of physics and rod performance, magnifies problems in the casting stroke that screw things up in different ways... I don't know :) 

As far as wind resistance by going up or down a line size, doesn't seem like it would matter much to me, but who knows.

So if you stay within the rod's performance window and slightly overline and compensate with stroke and hauling... couldn't you also slightly underline and do what Lefty describes? I've overlined and underlined rods before and played around with how they cast, but I can't say I've tried underlining specifically to gain distance in howling wind. Think I will try it when the wind kicks up again. Will probably just frustrate myself but maybe it will help. Or it won't :)

[Matthew Longley]

Hahaha - Dave, this is exactly what I meant.

I'm sure Gene is correct, that for his cast, overlining is better in wind. And Lefty Kreh... well Lefty Kreh is probably one of the foremost experts on fly fishing in the history of fly fishing, so its safe to assume his answer also has at least some truth to it.

At the end of the day, its about how you feel when casting, and the results you get from it. BTW, I would highly recommend asking others you are out fishing with to try casting their rigs as often as you can. I recently tried a buddy's rig and it was like turning on a light in a dark room - So that's the difference between fast and slow action!

[TurbineBlade]

I actually don't prefer overlining rods most of the time ;).  I generally stick with the line printed on the rod.  I've never really been a believer in the "overlining slows the rod's action down" idea.  I prefer to think of it as "making the rod cast as if it has more line out of the tip" since the action of the rod is always set (fast, med, slow, etc.).  In other words, a 7wt fenwick ff80 with a 8.5wt line casts (to me) like a 7wt fenwick ff80 with more fly line out of the tip....not so much "slower" like most people say, though I agree that timing is slower as you extend more line out. 

Lefty has an excellent cast -- only a food would say otherwise.  I cast heavily in his style, so if anything I should buy into everything he says 100% and keep my mouth shut ;). 

His answer absolutely has some truth to it -- a thinner line with have less wind resistance, but the overall suggestion is.....well, wrong.  It's not so much a difference of opinion, what he's saying is incorrect unless the laws of physics cease to exist for Lefty Kreh.  It's important to get facts straight sometimes.  I don't have the physics background, but I read that article once and immediately knew it wasn't right.  That's all.  ;)

This is WAY off topic now, but I think "slow" action fly rods are the best teachers for teaching how a rod loads and unloads because the feel and timing seem a bit easier to grasp.  I cast rods of every action and like them all at various times. 

Gene

[TurbineBlade]

While this is still totally derailed, I was thinking about casting style.  One of the things Lefty preaches is "If you ain't built like the instructor, you can't cast like the instructor", meaning he recognizes there are multiple casting styles which are all acceptable so long as the result is there.  But!  He then goes on to tell you things like "keep your elbow on a shelf" and "reach way back behind you to make a longer cast" and "use your whole body" and "keep your thumb behind the rod" and "so forth....essentially forcing you into his particularly style (and my style), when many, many people may be better served using a different style. 

I took most of that stuff to heart and forced that style, which happens to work fine for me (but maybe not you!)....but I just prefer a different approach to beginner fly casting than his. 

Gene 

[Howard Abramowitz]

Dave,

To answer your questions: no it's not all equal, and yes different lines will affect rod performance. Despite this I'm still pretty sure a heavier line will be easier to cast in the wind, but I'm positive you'll find the experiment more meaningful than my explanation why. So I'll leave it there.

As for Lefty, he made a career fishing so good on him.

On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 1:38:17 PM UTC-4, Dave J wrote:

[Dave J]

Thanks. And thinking about this stuff beats the hell out of working this afternoon!

[Carl Z.]

Dave,

I wouldn't buy used lines from ebay.  I purchased these from someone I  knew through a forum, but someone I have met and know how they take care of their equipment.  If you go to fly shows, some of the vendors will have used lines.  They usually get them when they buy reels and if they are any good, they strip them off. Then you can look at them and make sure they are not cracked and do not have a memory of being on the reel.

I usually buy these for casting practice or to round out the line weights I don't have and they go for $10-15. If they only last a half a season, I'm still ahead.

 

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[DaveSurfs]

Thanks Carl. I'll check'em out.

Best,

Dave

On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 9:22:24 PM UTC-4, Carl wrote:

Dave,

I wouldn't buy used lines from ebay.  I purchased these from someone I  knew through a forum, but someone I have met and know how they take care of their equipment.  If you go to fly shows, some of the vendors will have used lines.  They usually get them when they buy reels and if they are any good, they strip them off. Then you can look at them and make sure they are not cracked and do not have a memory of being on the reel.

I usually buy these for casting practice or to round out the line weights I don't have and they go for $10-15. If they only last a half a season, I'm still ahead.

 

On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 8:21 AM, namfos <mark....@gmail.com> wrote:

Or if you're cheap like me, keep your WF line on one inexpensive reel and your DT on another inexpensive reel. That way you don't have to fumble around with spare spools and it's less labor than unspooling.

Mark

On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 at 9:42:14 PM UTC-4, Carl wrote:

Some rules I work with are:

 Spare spools of different reels are nice, but you can pull the line off and store it in a loose coil in a ziplock bag as well.  It isn't quick change but it doesn't take that much time to respool a line.

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[Dalton Terrell]

Howard, Gene and others,

A few of the casting nerds did some experimentation on underlining yesterday morning at the Fletcher's clinic. Our results weren't conclusive at all but we did theorize the potential reason Lefty said to underline: higher line speed.

We threw a 7wt rod with a 7wt bass line, and then dropped down to a 5wt trout line--not exactly an ideal comparison. But what we did notice is that we could push the rod more with the lighter line. Does this additional velocity overcome the disadvantages of less mass, who knows, but it may be possible? With either set up, I could somewhat calmly hit 75 ft or totally overdo the power and end up with a 75 ft pile cast, which says a lot more about my technique than the equipment.

Dalton

[TurbineBlade]

That's interesting -- I can think of several times when I've brought the wrong fly line (usually the wrong "reel" I guess) for various species, and not had any problems casting as a result.  When I got steelheading at the end of this month I'll likely just bring a 7-weight line  for my 8-weight rod because I already have a 7-weight line spooled up and it casts just fine on that rod.  

I can picture someone standing on a flat and making longer type casts with a rod underlined by 1 weight -- no doubt.  I was probably a bit harsh in my criticism.  I do think everyone and everything should be open to question though.

 I just don't think I would tell new casters who experience wind to start dropping fly line weights for the supposed benefits that only more advanced casters may experience (if at all).  That's just me.  Maybe that's what he intended -- I don't know.  

I'm sorry I missed the cast!  We were fishing.  Here in another couple of weeks that will slow drastically, though now that I have Beth tying #22 zebra midges and Al's rats, we may hit a couple of choice spots this winter on occasion.  I'll probably start fishing once per week instead of 3-4 times.  I want to try to join in the future -- those Sunday casts were my first, honest attempt at casting my new (old) fly rod that "had the wrong line" on it ;).  John B. quickly dispelled that idea.  

Gene

[namfos]

I'm excruciatingly familiar with that pile cast result.

;-)

Mark

[Howard Abramowitz]

Dalton, All

What you've done is interesting, but the question isn't can you cast 5 wt line on 7 wt rod, but can you cast that line better. You raise an interesting point about line speed, and I'll get to that below. However, if you have issues with control in calm conditions, I doubt they would improve in high wind.

Anyway, I had some slow time at work so I tried to solve the problem more rigorously. To start I found the following paper "Comparison of numerical and analytical solutions for fly casting dynamics":

 http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF02859893

The paper has a simplified model for fly line dynamics that includes drag, but I had to modify it for the inclusion of wind.

I compared an 8wt line to a 7wt line in a 10 mph wind and a 15 m (~50 ft) cast in two conditions the first with the same initial velocity, and the second with the same initial kinetic energy. When the fly rod bends, it is storing energy (like a spring). The Lefty article suggests "proper loading" of the rod, which I'll assume that means the same amount of stored energy. Then assuming all of the stored energy is transferred to the line for the same cast they would have the same kinetic energy. I think this agrees with your observation of the 5 wt line on the 7 wt rod having very high line speeds.

The results of the modeling work are attached.

For the same initial velocity:
The results show, as expected, that the 8 wt line casts the full 15 m in less time and maintains its velocity throughout the cast better than the 7 wt line. 

For the same initial kinetic energy:
I was surprised that the 7 wt line will completed the cast faster.  This supports Lefty's claim, but as the velocity plot shows, as the cast unfolds the velocity of the 7 wt drops below that of the 8 wt. The model does not include the turning over of the fly, and I would suspect that it would make it harder to do that with the lighter line.  However, I do concede that it raises the possibility that a lighter line could be more effective in some scenarios.

In conclusion:
Physics is hard. It took a lot of time to do all of this, and in the end the question was not satisfactorily answered one way or another. In no way do I think either one of those cases matches reality, and the model required many assumptions that I am less than confident in. Despite this, I still feel that the heavier line will be a better option in the wind. The factors that go into generating a "properly loaded" rod, and the ability to control the line as the speed increases, at least in my mind, are favored by the heavier line.  But my highly idealized model shows some room for the lighter line to actually be the better choice. I think this idea would work better for shorter rather than longer casts, but who knows.

Anyway, if anyone is interested in the model I did it in mathematica, send me a message and I'll send it to you.

Howard

[TurbineBlade]

Similarly to "Watership Down" when the rabbits are confronted with something so confusing that their minds instantly recoil from it (except for Blackberry), a response to this may be "oh hell.  I just want to cast and what works for me is darned fine!"

But, I do think this kind of stuff is interesting and I thank you for posting it. 

Gene

[TurbineBlade]

What I meant to transmit was that I do like thinking about confusing stuff like this.  Sometimes I don't think the internet gets your point across very well. 

Gene

[Greg Feder]

So, I was wondering why rabbits would find Blackberries easier to understand than iPhones, which have a much simpler interface.  Then I realized I need to spend more time reading books and less time with technology. 

I really meant to respond to this thread to post this clip, which was my original reaction to Howard's post:  Talking Barbie: Math Class is Tough!. 

				Talking Barbie: Math Class is Tough!
				View on youtu.be	Preview by Yahoo

Cheers,

-- Greg

---

From: TurbineBlade <doubl...@gmail.com>

To: Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders <tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Re: Noob Question: Line Choice

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[Dalton Terrell]

Howard,

I can't begin to comprehend it, but that is totally awesome!

Dalton

[Howard Abramowitz]

Thanks,

If I ever make it to a beer tie, perhaps I can try to explain it a little better. I honestly am not really sure how well I understand it myself. One thing I have learned about fishing in the wind is that it is generally less painful if you keep your casting arm on the leeward side of your body.

Gene, I am pretty sure the point of the internet isn't to get your point across, but to and anger as many people as you can in as few words as possible.

Howard

[Rob Snowhite]

Lines to rods are like feet to shoes. I can put my 10.5 in an 11 or 12 bout not in a 9 or 8. 

Sent from my iPhone

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[bryan....@gmail.com]

Gene's snarky sense of humor takes a while to get used to. I've actually come to be amused by it. 

Bryan

Sent from my iPhone

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