Salting Roads

[Gregg DiSalvo]

I, like most around the district, love to be able to get to work safely, but there has to be a better way to deal with snow and ice.  Offer employer incentives to encourage remote work, remote work, sand/gravel (may not actually be any better)...????

https://potomac.org/blog/2018/1/22/potomac-river-salt-salinity-study

"In our area, polluted runoff that carries road salt into rivers and streams is largely to blame. Despite receiving only 3 inches of snow this season, crews in the District have laid down over 15 tons of rock salt and 290,000 gallons of salt brine. And that's just this year."

Excessive don't you think?

[Andrew Sarcinello]

It is definitely excessive along with schools closing any time a drop of something frozen falls from the sky...society is going soft!! Haha.

I agree fully with working remotely.  I suppose it is not possible in some fields but it is fairly easy to set up remote computer connections.  A big problem is so many drivers around here come from places with zero exposure to driving in snow.  Recently, a new roommate moved into my house and we were talking about how much it usually snows or doesn't snow.  She's from San Francisco and had no concept of winter, I told her I always hope it doesn't snow because traffic becomes a nightmare.  She asked why and I had to explain that when it snows you have to drive slower.........she had absolutely no idea.  This is what we're dealing with.

My company sometimes does water quality sampling.  We look at stormwater drainage networks that should normally be dry (for example, pipes that drain a parking lot) and if we find any flowing water, we sample it to make sure it isn't some sort of illegal chemical discharge.  We do quick tests on-site for pH, chlorine, ammonia, turbidity, temperature, and conductivity.  We have a set of guidelines for what range of values each test must fall within, and if anything is outside the standards we deem it suspicious and send it to a lab.  90% of the time, water that we find can be visually observed as groundwater coming through a crack in the pipe, but we still have to test it - and EVERY sample I've ever taken has failed the conductivity standard, even if everything else is perfectly normal.  I am not certain, but I believe this is a result of the excessive use of rock salt and brine on the roads in winter.  

[Jeffrey Silvan]

It's actually pretty easy to drive in/on snow. To Andrew's point, you just make sure you do everything slower and plan for stops to take way more distance. Most people also forget or don't realize that four wheel drive doesn't help you slow down on snow/slick roads in any way, shape, or form.

What causes the big problem is ice, regardless of whether it's paired with snow or not. Unless you have studs (and if you live in DC, you dont), you basically cannot drive on ice, and salt is just about the only way to combat it. Sand helps, but it's reactive rather than preventative, so in high density areas like DC, havoc will already be wreaked before you can lay down the sand. 

Interestingly, many studies show sand is worse for the environment (when used for treating roads) than salt/brine. Sand later needs to be removed from the roads since it starts really messing things up. As it gets washed into drainage systems by melting snow/ice and rain, it will clog up stormwater management systems. When it does make its way into streams, it can fill in space between gravel, making it difficult for aquatic insects to find suitable habitat. Massachusetts, and I'm sure other areas, have multiple alternative methods of treating roads, and even have defined areas of "Reduced Salt Use" which are generally environmentally sensitive areas or areas where runoff can feed into drinking water supply. Alternatives include rock salt / calcum chloride mixes (typically used in the Reduced Salt Areas) and liquid magnesium chloride. The latter is more environmentally friendly than brine or road salt, but of course, it's much more expensive.

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[Andrew Chaney]

Not to get off topic, but to your joke about school closings in this area: My wife is a teacher and her district has 14 snow days baked into the school year calendar. In other words, it will take more than 14 snow days before the school district needs to add days to the end of the school year to meet the state mandated number of classroom hours. While that number seems high for the DC area, we do occasionally have snow-heavy winters that justify it. However, we also have winters like this season that has had little to no snowfall. The thing is, if the district doesn't use all those snow days, they don't shorten the school year accordingly, so they're essentially lost days off.

Therefore, in seasons like this year, they have no problem issuing a snow day or a 2 hour delay at the drop of a hat because there's no way they're going to hit the 14 day threshold.

[Andrew Sarcinello]

I didn't know that and it explains a lot, thanks. My coworkers who have kids in the public schools have been shaking their heads at some of the closure/delay decisions lately.  Grew up in PA , we had built-in snow days but I don't think it was nearly that many.  Maybe 5 or 7. It took several inches to even think about a delay - and the bus ride was uphill both ways ;-)

But getting back to road salt and brine, it would be nice if people could just use common sense and drive carefully in the snow, or better yet not have a need to drive in it at all so less salt and brine could be used - it's a pipe dream though. I'm curious about the alternatives Jeff mentioned and how much different they truly are from an environmental impact standpoint.

[Gregg DiSalvo]

All of this is quite interesting.  I grew up in Richmond where even a whisper of snow caused store shelves to be cleared.  

Both of my parents grew up in upstate NY with lake effect snow.  It was hammered into me from a young age that the key is SLOW.  It's nothing against my other lifelong Virginians, but it does truly amaze me watching some of them peel out of the parking lot and not adjust the way they drive.  If I had a dollar for how many times I've heard "I have 4-wheel drive"

Well, maybe with investment in updating infrastructure we will look into heated roads ;)

On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 10:07:34 AM UTC-5, Gregg DiSalvo wrote:

[DJ]

I grew up in Richmond too, my entertainment every time it snowed was watching my drunk neighbor peel full speed down his driveway....right into his ditch. Every year, ever time it snowed.

[Zachary Greenberg]

Good to see Potomac Conservancy pick this up, the study got some recent media attention from WAMU: https://wamu.org/story/18/01/30/addicted-salt-using-much-roads-sidewalks/, and WTOP: https://wtop.com/local/2018/01/road-salt-lifesaver-winter-storm-theres-downside-researchers-say/.

Not sure what DC's official policy is, but their website says they use a 'beet juice' mixture, which was listed as an alternative here to minimize runoff. 

On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 10:38 AM, Andrew Sarcinello <andy...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Gregg DiSalvo]

I can't remember if it was here or elsewhere that I read about the beet juice.  It sounds interesting and apparently looks like a brutal blood bath!

On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 10:07:34 AM UTC-5, Gregg DiSalvo wrote:

[tperkins]

I know a lot of athletes drink beet juice for better endurance, will this make our fish stronger? 

[namfos]

We who get our water from WSSC do have issues with mineral content in our drinking water and have for quite some time. Can someone point me to the place in the paper, http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2018/01/03/1711234115, the reference to back up the Conservancy's assertion the Potomac is, " three times saltier than it was 25 years ago" ?

Mark

[Zachary Greenberg]

If anyone is interested, Izaak Walton League offers free chloride test kits as part of their Winter Salt Watch initiative: http://www.iwla.org/conservation/water/winter-salt-watch. 

On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 9:29 AM, namfos <mark....@gmail.com> wrote:

We who get our water from WSSC do have issues with mineral content in our drinking water and have for quite some time. Can someone point me to the place in the paper, http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2018/01/03/1711234115, the reference to back up the Conservancy's assertion the Potomac is, " three times saltier than it was 25 years ago" ?

Mark

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