Shenandoah main stem

[Misha Gill]

In case anyone was wondering, 4.9 ft on the NOAA Millville Stream Guage is too high for good fishing on the Shenandoah main stem. Miles and I floated 10 whole miles today and only turned up a coupla dinks. I'm looking forward to fishing the main stem some more this summer though, so I was curious if anyone has any wisdom or experience they would care to share? 

[Jeffrey Silvan]

Misha - I'm guessing the water was still a bit stained? While I haven't fished the main stem much, I float the South Fork at least a few times a summer not TOO far away - usually around Luray. Last year in mid-June I did a float on a day where flows were actually exactly where they are today, and it was definitely challenging fishing with the decently high and stained water. I was facing the same type of results as you with the standard subsurface Shenandoah flies - not much luck. A couple possible nibbles, but no hookups. Nothing on the surface either, which surprised me a little because I was expecting the commotion to attract the fish with the limited visibility. What finally ended up triggering the bite was a Kreelex. It must have been the massive amount of flash that really helped the visibility of the fly and let the fish hone in on it. I stuck quite a few nice smallies and a couple hefty largemouths on that, along with some ridiculous slabs of sunfish. Try keeping a few of those (or other really flashy flies) on hand if you see conditions similar to that again. It was literally the only fly that produced anything under those conditions.

On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 8:24 PM, Misha Gill <mish...@gmail.com> wrote:

In case anyone was wondering, 4.9 ft on the NOAA Millville Stream Guage is too high for good fishing on the Shenandoah main stem. Miles and I floated 10 whole miles today and only turned up a coupla dinks. I'm looking forward to fishing the main stem some more this summer though, so I was curious if anyone has any wisdom or experience they would care to share? 

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[Misha Gill]

Yes, it was a bit stained. Funny thing is, I tried a Kreelex in silver. I carry it in copper too, but I didn't think it would make a difference. What sort of water were you catching them in? We tried every type of water we could think of. I think the issue comes down to not knowing the water. I was reading the midcurrent Mike Schultz interview, and he makes a great point, that 95% of the fish are in 5% of the water at this time of year (during the spawn). And since the water was dirty, they were invisible to us and I don't know the section well enough to know where they spawn. Oh well, hopefully we get a good year class this year!

[Jeffrey Silvan]

I was throwing a copper one, funny enough. Who knows if it was just the day that made the difference or if it was the color. We were mainly catching them in the shallows, mostly rocky shoals. The other big thing that helped was fishing the mouth of the feeder creeks since it was far enough after the rain that the feeder water was clear and helped water quality. It was later in the year and definitely after the spawn, so the fish absolutely could have been stacked up differently.

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[Miles]

One of the flies I tried was basically a copper kreelex crawdad imitation -- nothing doing. I don't think it was the flies. We were moving pretty quickly; if we'd had a chance to slow down and really work the shallows and shoals, we might have done better, but it was obvious at the put-in we were not going to have a banner day. It was a really pleasant float though - a pretty stretch of river.

 

Miles

[HeaveToo]

I was hearing things about using a drag chain with rivers that have current.  It sounds like a cool idea and I may fabricate one for my kayak.

Basically it sounds like a heavy length of chain that has a shrink wrap over it (to reduce noise).  It is attached to a rope and then drug behind a kayak to slow it down in the current.  It will probably cause the boat to stop from time to time if it snags a rock. 

This may have helped the other day in the stronger current.

Either way, when the water is stained it makes for VERY hard conditions for a smallmouth bass.  Increased current often makes the fish go deep and they hide behind structures in the current (based on my experiences). 

Towards the end of May the fishing for smallmouth should pick up.  When I did a lot of smallmouth fishing I always caught the biggest fish of the year at the end of May.  I blew this last year on the Potomac in the summer but it worked this way for a while.

Let's hope that this rain slows down and we can start floating the river in better conditions.  I really want to do a few floats in the end of May before Memorial Day Weekend (NEVER GO ON THE RIVER ON A HOLIDAY WEEKEND).  It gets nutty.

[Danny Barrett]

Me and a friend do that.  Try and find a metal chain that won't rust with all the water. I forget what the material is, our first one rusted and became a mess.  Also, gotta watch standing and casting.  When it snags, you sort of shoot forward.

Thanks,

Dan Barrett

dannyt...@gmail.com

(540)-222-8064

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[Rob Snowhite]

Not to be a Debbie Downer, but I'd be a little concerned about damage to the stream bead and its organisms by dragging a pile of chains through there.

[Miles]

Agreed -- I would avoid a drag chain for that reason, especially if anything was spawning in the river. But I also doubt it would be quite enough, even wrapped in plastic. If the water looks good enough to use a chain, I'll probably just park the boat and wade.

By 'slow down' I had in mind being more methodical about our use of eddies and pools to park the cataraft, instead of just bombing through. This was an exploratory run for us, so next time we'll take it slower through the good water.

[Brad]

Good grief. To both Debbie's here. Very little disturbance produced IMHO and certainly less than any other anchor I have used. If anchoring in aquatic vegetation, it pulls up far less weeds. Oh and use it responsibly. I will not pull it through any SAVs and generally only use it in pace water with a gravel or cobble bottom. 

I use a drag chain as my only anchor in my canoe. I operate it off a Scotty anchor lock off the stern so I can adjust depth from my seat. I have several lengths of the thickest chain that will slip through a mountain bike inner tube. And the inner tube keeps it silent. Completely silent. I use zip ties to hold the tube on. I also think the inner tubes disturb the bottom less and you hang on the bottom less. I use a big carabiner to clip on more or less sections of chain depending on conditions. 

Safety wise, always have a knife on your person capable of cutting your anchor line in one swipe. All anchors hang in current. Use common sense and if the flow is really pushing or the bottom really rocky or "hangy" don't use it. 

[Miles]

Hey Brad,

 

I'm not saying it should be illegal, just that I wouldn't do it. It seems counterproductive to discourage anyone who is trying to be a more responsible angler. I don't always fish barbless, but I'm not going to harp on anyone who does. It probably wouldn't cause much disturbance for me to kill and eat a couple 20" smallmouth, but I'm not going to do it.

 

For the record, the water was so turbid we couldn't tell whether the bottom was cobble, vegetation, or priceless Tiffany glass figurines. Probably not the latter, I'm reasonably certain. 

 

And yes, we had a knife, and ended up cutting off the anchor we did have. The water was really pumping; it was probably a mistake to drop anything in that current.

 

-Miles

[TurbineBlade]

Great, more unfriendly forum posts (which I consider 'counterproductive') to make people feel as though they're doing something wrong and cannot be 'part of the group' -- I mean, the seasoned veterans on here understand the complex issue of canoe drag chains and the associated destruction of the streambed (that was one of the first things I learned in General Ecology...it's worse than open-pit mining), but let's give the newbies a free pass until they learn all this stuff!  

Maybe it would be a good idea to create a list of the things fly fishermen are allowed to do vs. listing the things not to do?  I'm dying to hear them, and if anyone in fisheries management reads the forum I'm sure they'll be taking notes.  

Gene

On Tuesday, May 6, 2014 8:24:01 PM UTC-4, Misha Gill wrote:

[Richard Farino]

Here’s the first rule of things fisherman are no longer allowed to do:

• Thou shalt not quote “A River Runs Through It”

R

Richard Farino

Urban Angler VA | 108 N. Washington Street  2nd Floor | Alexandria, VA 22314 

(703) 527-2524 | fax: (703) 527-3313 | ric...@urbanangler.com    

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[thevie...@gmail.com]

What about Good Morning Vietnam or Platoon?? 

Sent from my iPhone

On May 9, 2014, at 3:50 PM, Richard Farino <ric...@urbanangler.com> wrote:

Here’s the first rule of things fisherman are no longer allowed to do:

• Thou shalt not quote “A River Runs Through It”

R

Richard Farino

Urban Angler VA | 108 N. Washington Street  2nd Floor | Alexandria, VA 22314 <4E148038-E81B-4BEE-B11A-3BDA4F477DB0[33].png>

(703) 527-2524 | fax: (703) 527-3313 | ric...@urbanangler.com  <439D6D4F-24F4-499F-BBD0-615D9750E934[33].png>  <B1888B5C-A16D-44DB-8BD6-93D34CA1A6CE[33].png>

From: TurbineBlade <doubl...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: <tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Friday, May 9, 2014 at 1:09 PM
To: <tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Re: Shenandoah main stem

Great, more unfriendly forum posts (which I consider 'counterproductive') to make people feel as though they're doing something wrong and cannot be 'part of the group' -- I mean, the seasoned veterans on here understand the complex issue of canoe drag chains and the associated destruction of the streambed (that was one of the first things I learned in General Ecology...it's worse than open-pit mining), but let's give the newbies a free pass until they learn all this stuff!  

Maybe it would be a good idea to create a list of the things fly fishermen are allowed to do vs. listing the things not to do?  I'm dying to hear them, and if anyone in fisheries management reads the forum I'm sure they'll be taking notes.  

Gene

On Tuesday, May 6, 2014 8:24:01 PM UTC-4, Misha Gill wrote:

In case anyone was wondering, 4.9 ft on the NOAA Millville Stream Guage is too high for good fishing on the Shenandoah main stem. Miles and I floated 10 whole miles today and only turned up a coupla dinks. I'm looking forward to fishing the main stem some more this summer though, so I was curious if anyone has any wisdom or experience they would care to share? 

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[Richard Farino]

Gray area, but quoting Apocalypse Now, Snatch, or the Big Lebowski is encouraged.

R

Richard Farino

Urban Angler VA | 108 N. Washington Street  2nd Floor | Alexandria, VA 22314 

(703) 527-2524 | fax: (703) 527-3313 | ric...@urbanangler.com    

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tidal-potomac-fly-rodders/06623F2E-7C96-4CE5-A615-C8E08D14D6D8%40gmail.com.

[TurbineBlade]

+1 Rich ;).   

Quoting The Big Lebowski or any Simpsons episode seasons 2-7 is acceptable though.  

Gene

On Friday, May 9, 2014 4:15:07 PM UTC-4, Vietfisher wrote:

What about Good Morning Vietnam or Platoon?? 

Sent from my iPhone

On May 9, 2014, at 3:50 PM, Richard Farino <ric...@urbanangler.com> wrote:

Here’s the first rule of things fisherman are no longer allowed to do:

• Thou shalt not quote “A River Runs Through It”

R

Richard Farino

Urban Angler VA | 108 N. Washington Street  2nd Floor | Alexandria, VA 22314 <4E148038-E81B-4BEE-B11A-3BDA4F477DB0[33].png>

(703) 527-2524 | fax: (703) 527-3313 | ric...@urbanangler.com  <439D6D4F-24F4-499F-BBD0-615D9750E934[33].png>  <B1888B5C-A16D-44DB-8BD6-93D34CA1A6CE[33].png>

From: TurbineBlade <doubl...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: <tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Friday, May 9, 2014 at 1:09 PM
To: <tidal-potoma...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: {Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders} Re: Shenandoah main stem

Great, more unfriendly forum posts (which I consider 'counterproductive') to make people feel as though they're doing something wrong and cannot be 'part of the group' -- I mean, the seasoned veterans on here understand the complex issue of canoe drag chains and the associated destruction of the streambed (that was one of the first things I learned in General Ecology...it's worse than open-pit mining), but let's give the newbies a free pass until they learn all this stuff!  

Maybe it would be a good idea to create a list of the things fly fishermen are allowed to do vs. listing the things not to do?  I'm dying to hear them, and if anyone in fisheries management reads the forum I'm sure they'll be taking notes.  

Gene

On Tuesday, May 6, 2014 8:24:01 PM UTC-4, Misha Gill wrote:

In case anyone was wondering, 4.9 ft on the NOAA Millville Stream Guage is too high for good fishing on the Shenandoah main stem. Miles and I floated 10 whole miles today and only turned up a coupla dinks. I'm looking forward to fishing the main stem some more this summer though, so I was curious if anyone has any wisdom or experience they would care to share? 

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[Aden]

Seeing as how it is Friday...

I got a beverage here man!

[Miles]

Hi Gene,

Totally apologize if my post seemed unfriendly. I can be a bit dry online, I know, but it wasn't my intent to make anyone feel unwelcome.

My point, again, is not that I think nobody should ever do anything. My point is that in this particular case, I wouldn't drag a chain anchor. I don't know enough about streambed ecology to know whether it would do any harm, but I don't feel like it's a risk (even a negligible risk) I need to run, given the available, acceptable alternatives, and my idiosyncratic preferences for how I like to fish a good riffle or shoal. I totally get that better informed anglers may choose to use a chain anchor in that manner, and that's fine.

I also agree that we should discourage groupism or snobbery: I may be a veteran angler (debatable), but I don't consider myself an insider for the sole reason that I don't really get why trout are such a big deal. Never have, and I that puts me well outside mainstream fly fishing. So I am quite sensitive to anything that hints at snobbery -- and, honestly, annoyed that you read that into anything I wrote.

Rampant troutism or not, one of the best things about fly fishing is the sport's commitment to a conservation ethos, to concern for our fisheries and the environment. Granted, there are fly anglers who are indifferent, just as there are spin and bait anglers (and maybe even purse seiners) who care deeply about the environment. But the ethos does animate fly fishing as a culture, more than it does the other forms of fishing, and that's a good thing.

So -- while agreeing wholeheartedly that we should be against snobbery -- I think it is totally fine when somebody says, 'I won't do x because I am concerned about the environment'. I think we should encourage the ethos, even if we disagree with the facts, so long as that person is not trying to tell other people what to do.

I want to be clear that I am not adopting or encouraging a holier-than-thou attitude. I am probably more likely than most people on this board to kill and cook a fish I catch, but I avoid lead in my flies and splitshot -- and I know it probably cost me going fishless on the Salmon River last fall. I know lots of people fish lead, and I'm not going to tell them not to. I also fish a lot more synthetics than most people, even though I end up losing flies that will take 10,000 years to degrade. I don't understand why some people fish hookless flies, but whatever.

For the record, I am perfectly fine fishing for spawning bass on their beds, even though that also turned out to be super controversial around here. But I don't fish for brookies during their spawn. In probably the biggest example that comes to mind, I suspect global warming will be a net win for me: I would rather catch snook in the Potomac than brookies in the Park. I want to stop climate change, for the usual human consequences reasons, but in terms of changes to my fishing it doesn't worry me.

So where the line is between stewardship and abuse -- and the vast gray area in between -- of our fisheries will naturally vary from angler to angler. And that's a conversation we should be having, here in this forum, even if we end up disagreeing where to draw those lines.

Though I am not an expert on stream ecology, I do know a fair bit about how ideas become rules. A lot of things that we take as hallmarks of the flyfishing conservation ethos -- catch and release being a prime example -- started with some guy saying, "I'm not gonna do that for conservation reasons". And his buddies probably thought he was being a tedious snob, but eventually they came around, and now it's the law. I have a feeling in twenty years we will see lead headed that way. And, yeah, there is a chance that 'conservation reasons' ends up masking actual racism or classism or some less vicious form of snobbery, but I am willing to give folks in TPFR the benefit of the doubt.

And not just the ethos, but the facts could change as well. We should also be eager to learn new things about our fisheries and our impact on them, and change our fishing according to that knowledge. I would be happy to accept any systematic studies that show chain anchors are not a problem, but I would then still be open to any newer, better evidence that showed otherwise.

This guy demonstrates how not to proceed with new knowledge, being obnoxiously holier-than-thou: http://singlebarbed.com/2013/12/11/why-youre-a-prick-if-you-fish-a-copper-john/ -- but he makes a pretty solid case against using copper in flies, based on scientific evidence. I probably won't throw away my Copper Johns right away, but I'll definitely think about it and take it seriously. What I won't do is tell anybody who quits copper that they're wrong and shouldn't talk about giving up copper because that makes them a snob. 

In general, I would not be too eager to tell an angler their conservation ethic is misguided, because my own sense of those things might change. I will continue to fish as I see fit, until I change my mind, but I am not going to spend much (or any) time telling anybody they're wrong to not do something they feel is harmful to the fishery. I want to encourage anglers to take that sort of responsibility, even if it means they sometimes overreach and end up not doing things that I think are okay.

So, to sum, I apologize again if anything I wrote seemed unfriendly or made you or anyone else feel unwelcome. I agree snobbery is bad, but saying 'I won't do x for conservation reasons' is not always snobbery, and quite likely an ethos we should encourage. In the lifetime of this board, we are probably going to have a lot more conversations about what constitutes appropriate fisheries conservation; let's try to engage those conversations in the best spirit of the sport, and make everyone feel welcome regardless of whether we disagree.

regards,

Miles

[TurbineBlade]

Sure Miles -- I appreciate the post.  I'm very much a "by the books" kind of angler.  Everyone needs to follow the law for better or worse, and in the end it's really all that matters. Once you get away from that, you really get into trouble....and it can come off as arrogant rather than informative, since someone could feel that you are trying to "educate" them about something that they've already considered (and not something they're simply unaware of) and decided for or against (e.g. fishing to spawning bass, fishing to spawning shad and/or brook trout, using spit shot, fishing to trout that are not rising, fishing lead eye flies, fishing while wearing a Megadeth shirt, wearing felt soles, using an anchor, taking a picture of a trout laying on a few river stones, using dessicant powder, using jungle cock, tying with elk, moose, turkey and whatever other dead animals while being 'anti-hunting', not wetting your hands before landing a fish, etc.).  It just goes on and on.  

More ironic are the recent threads about poaching and wading at Gravelly Point, both of which are illegal....if we can't get game officials to enforce basic regulations, what is the point of debating any of the above things?  

The spawning bass thing I couldn't care less about -- LMB have a very high fecundity and they're very, very low on my list of concerns.  To me personally, it's not much fun to target fish on beds, but I don't say a word to anyone who chooses to do it.  And if I have time to fish and can side-step the suckers to get to something that is biting, I'll most likely do it....though I'm fishing for trout more and more lately.  

To me, fishing (even fly fishing) is a blood sport.  Not that this is bad....it's just a fact, and blood is useful.  Ask any doctor!  All of the shad everyone just tinkered with (including me) would have probably have preferred to NOT be caught while investing their energy into the migration/spawn, just as a male preying mantis wold probably prefer to keep his head after mating...assuming these animals are capable of this kind of complex thought and emotion, which they aren't.  But humans are natural hunters and anglers!  What's to fight?  That's why people post to this thing.  

We do this because we enjoy it -- not because it saves the world or any other nonsense.  It probably does keep me from biting people on the metro though.   

BTW -- had some good days in the SNP, including one of the larger dry fly-caught trout I've caught yet (pushing 13").  Also caught a few yellow perch, and more 'slab' crappie in the local creek.  

Had really good luck with a "soft hackle dry fly" pattern fished off the back of a more buoyant EHC dry, both on in the film and also sunk as an emerger.  Basically it's a CDC comparadun with a turn of partridge soft hackle at the front.  Great fly -- I suspect the soft hackle and CDC says "alive" a bit more during the drift.  If you hate CDC, carry a piece of paper towel and use that -- then you'll love it.  

Of course, soft hackles are great too ;).  They don't work though, I just fish them for fun and just to have something to do -- they're too old to catch any fish...

Gene

On Tuesday, May 6, 2014 8:24:01 PM UTC-4, Misha Gill wrote: