New Black Box Theatre Sound

[pmaso...@gmail.com]

Thank you to everyone that participates in this group.  It's a great resource.

I am volunteering with an arts non-profit that is building a multi-use venue that is under construction for projected opening in Fall 2025 .  The facility includes a 500 seat acoustic concert hall, a 150 seat black box theatre, and a 300 seat conference center.

This post references the Black Box which is 50'x45' with lighting catwalks at 18' AFF.

I am looking for input as to what sound system capabilities you would want in this sort of flexible space, recognizing that almost anything can be brought in for a particular need.  So what would be the basics the facility should include with the space?

My initial thoughts are a set of 4 powered speakers with hangers for SFX and basic reinforcement. Can be moved to various positions depending on seating layout.  A small mixer to support a basic playback, and announcement capability. Audio & Video wiring to floor level (wall boxes on 4 walls) from Control Booth.  Additional wiring to several points on the catwalks.  Note, there will be a simple video monitor system for backstage dressing rooms etc that will have it's own overhead microphone.

Thanks in advance for any other suggestions you might have.

Peter  

[Seablade -]

Well this isn't something that can really be answered without knowing a lot more about the programming of the space honestly.

But I will say, no matter what infrastructure and things like pass-throughs and cable paths for additional equipment would be high on my list.

But beyond that, would need to know a lot more about the needs/uses/programming of the space to begin to answer that question, sorry.

       Thomas

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[Jonathan Woytek]

It wouldn’t hurt to run a bunch of dry CAT back to a patch panel in your booth/tech closet/whatever. With the right dongles, that can be used for lots of different things. 

Consider some user-friendly A/V patch panels around the space, too. Thinking someone walks in with a laptop and projector and wants some amplification.

Are you making provisions for intercom? 

It would probably be nice to have DMX available at multiple locations (I know, we’re sound geeks, but I mess about with a little lighting from time to time, too). That could also be patched over CAT, so several panels about would maybe also handle this. 

Flexible options for reinforcement are a good idea, I think. Not knowing a little more about intended use, it’s hard to get specific. If the space may be getting used by community groups without a lot of tech support, I might consider a “dummy” system that is permanently installed to provide a simple public address/music playback/presentation capability with a simple wall panel control and some ceiling mount speakers. Then you have the more capable small mixer and hung or stand-mounted speakers for more complex events, and the expandability with patch panels to support folks bringing in more of their own gear. 

I will also say that I am jealous of your non-profit. :)

Jonathan

Sent from my Commodore64

[rbing...@juno.com]

Spend the money on proper infrastructure now.  It will cost 3 or 4 times as much later if you miss something.

 

Unless I’m forced to do it another way, I always put in a handful of XLR tie lines, typically 2 to 4 per panel.   Put dedicated Intercom ports on any panel where you think you may even remotely want to be able to plug a COM pack in.  If you’re doing analog COM, put in a 4 channel infrastructure, even if you only ever plan to buy a 2 channel system.  Put in at least 4 CAT6A drops to every panel, and more if that is where you think you might run sound or video from.  Put in  75 ohm Coax to run SDI.  (I can’t tell you how often I see this missing in modern facilities).  And put in NL4 loudspeaker tie lines, even if you plan to run all powered speakers.  This is the only thing I will eliminate if I am forced to do so.  And wire all 4 conductors of the NL4!  (another pet peeve of mine in may facilities)

 

Run all those lines back to a Rack, conveniently located within in each space.  Having to go a mile away to a central rack room is such a pain in the ass.  Unless you just happen to have the perfect rack room centrally located, convenient for every room.  Then link all those racks to all the other venues with Fiber as well as CAT6A and Coax if the distance limits allow. 

 

Four powered speakers with some subs would be the bare minimum I would think.  As others have said we would need a lot more information about the space programming to advise properly. 

 

Minimum number of AV panels would be 1 on every wall at floor level and one on every catwalk typically.  Again depends on how the catwalks are laid out.  Bring all tie lines back to patch bays for flexible routing.  And use XLR and Ethercons for the patchbays, not ¼” Bantoms or RJ45s if you can help it.  Use shielded CAT6A.

 

Unless the staff is very limited in their knowledge, the console should be a digital console, and I would always put a console in with Dante support.  Add the card to the desk if needed. 

 

There’s my suggestions.

 

Good luck.

 

Richard B Ingraham

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[Charlie Richmond]

Richard's suggestions are definitive, as usual.

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[Dominic CodyKramers]

Don't forget dedicated audio power throughout the space AND possibly a way to switch the outlets on/off remotely...especially useful for powered speakers hung from a grid or other hard to reach places.

--Dominic

[Mark Turpin]

Agreed, Charlie; Richard is spot on. 

 

One thing worth emphasizing in Richard’s suggestions is that your Category cable plant needs to be STP.  Running UTP for AV will only cause heartaches, and it’s not worth running more than one Category cable type for the few services that you might have that are happy on UTP.   When doing this, make sure you also have shielded patch cables and shielded patch bays (an easy thing to overlook). 

 

Having patch bays for Category allows you to use IP-based audio or video that can pass a switch as well create point-to-point connections for old-school baluns (think HDBaseT).  IP-based video switching is great, but not cheap, and there are plenty of times when point-to-point will do the job (or get you out of a jam).

 

I also strongly agree with providing 75-ohm for SDI, using the best coax you can afford.  (Bonus – it will also work for MADI if someone wanders in with a DiGiCo console that has MADI stage boxes.)  Unlike IP-based stuff, SDI performance is directly dependent on distance, so look at cable specs with distance in mind.  SDI may be old school, but it is the closest thing to analog in terms of low-latency and robust performance.  For mission-critical cameras (like the SM camera or motion-equipment monitoring), you want something robust with as close to zero-latency as you can get.  Shooting for all runs to pass at least 6G-SDI is a good idea.

 

One thing people sometimes forget about powered loudspeakers is the number of 120V power points you will need.  Sometimes it’s not a factor, but sometimes it can add up in new construction – it depends on building geometry.  Using passive cabinets can be a lot easier if you have the right infrastructure.  There’s a good reason that some high-end cabinets these days (notably L’Acoustics and d&b) are passive.  Of course, you have to use their controller-amplifiers, which redefine “expensive”, but they can have fewer failure points and fewer things to remember in your show setup.  Powered boxes are great for temporary use, but often less so for installation.  Plus, as Dominic says, you have to have a good way to turn the bloody things off at the end of the night.  Besides, your cabinet choices get a lot more limited if you only think powered.

 

[Charlie Richmond]

Good point - I'm somewhat out of the power amp loop these days but suspect there may be powered loudspeakers that automatically go into standby when no signal has been present for a while... ;-)

C-)

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[pmaso...@gmail.com]

Thomas, Richard, Charlie, Jonathan, Mark, Dominic...

Thanks for all the input.  Yes there are STP cable runs for all audio centric areas, and video coax for HDSDI.  In a previous life I was a Broadcast TV Systems Design Engineer.  HDSDI is the plan for all video distribution with embedded audio (the latency of streaming video is a non-starter for me). There is video patching and routing too.  Good thoughts on using passive speakers regarding power management.  Plan for the sound in the concert hall is L'Acoustics, so familiar with the cost of their amps.  IO panels include audio XLRs and Intercom connections.  All terminate in the second floor control room that overlooks the space.

As for programming, we have 5-6 active theatre/dance companies in the area, so there will be a variety of programming including dance (with a portable floor if necessary).  The space will be used for other events, too.  Hard to guess, so plan is to put in as much cable infrastructure as possible to give users options.  This includes cable trays between the venues and utility rooms etc to accommodate adding future circuits. On the lighting side, there is a DMX network with ETC facility wide lighting control called Paradigm.  

Thanks again for the feedback.

Peter

[rbing...@juno.com]

Great point!  I should have mentioned that.  These are the things I take for granted that folks know but probably shouldn’t take for granted.  😊

 

I typically spec a dedicated convenience outlet next to almost every AV patch panel.  Insist that the panel name and breaker number be listed on the outlet.  A transformer isolated, with isolated technical ground is the proper solution (assuming inside the US).  But if the budget doesn’t allow for it, you can often get by with just a single panel where all isolated ground outlets are terminated.  A relay panel that can be incorporated into an AV control system is the best solution, but not all projects can afford that extra expense.  And it often takes 2 or 3 passes before the programming of it matches what the end client really needs, because they often don’t know themselves.  But the most economical is to just have the panel located in a convenient location and ask for breakers that are meant to be cycled on and off (used as a power switch) as a typical breaker is not really designed to be used as an on/off switch.    There is a technical term for such breakers, but I forget what it is off the top of my head, since I am not the one that specifies those.  I leave that to the electrical engineers and know just enough to know what to ask for. 

 

Richard B Ingraham

[Ken Porter]

While I'll second just about everything I've read here so far, I'd also suggest keeping the following in mind:

Is the grid accessed via a lift or a catwalk? This might inform decisions about the size & weight of what will need to be hung over and over again in various locations. I suggest passive speakers over powered ones: A) only 1 cable to plug in at each hang position; B) more of the electronics can be accessible in the control booth when things go wonky.

Will the cables in the grid be run in conduit/raceways or just tie-lines up to pipes to get where they're going? If there are receptacles every x feet in a fixed raceway, you don't have to stock & store as much cable. But the raceways can fill up if everybody assumes they can pile in their cable, not thinking about the accumulation, or the trouble in chasing down issues later.

I absolutely recommend throwing cat5/6 jacks all around the space and putting a patchbay within easy reach in the booth. Adaptors/transformers can make it carry just about anything. Please make explicit that such jacks should NOT be assumed by any IT folks that they can just make it connect to the outside world.

Presuming a grid made of schedule 40, I recommend those "mega-claw" clamps, which can be tightened & removed by hand with that giant T-handle, so forgetting a c-wrench is nearly a thing of the past. Also, when looking at speaker options, consider the size/versatility of the yoke that goes with it. Will it need 1 clamp or 2? 

For the size of the play space, consider the splay angles of the speakers. 80x50? 120x60? do you want rotatable horns? Will you want mounting locations *other* than the grid - i.e. under seating or in corners? Will some designer want to put a practical special small speaker  hidden in the set? Yes, of course, eventually. Cable paths to the performance area? Perhaps stock a Galaxy microspot or nanospot or two, or equivalent.  Or a wireless speaker option.

You mention a lot of dance. Easy audio, but Electrics may want to suspend a half dozen booms for sidelight - then how does that affect weight capacities of the grid, etc?

And a battery-operated bullhorn. If there's a big event with a power outage (perhaps triggered by a fire alarm) a stage manager can still yell instructions to the audience. Cheap and simple.

Let us know how it goes! and what you learn from this endeavor!

 - K

[eduardo]

Good passive speakers are always worth considering if you’re moving them much.  Lugging those active beasts around gets annoying real quick.

eduardo

[E Riley Casey]

My active speaker rant : A passive speaker has three, ten maybe in a really complicated crossover twenty things that can fail and render the speaker unusable. An active speaker has several hundred. Add to that the fairly bad track record most speaker manufacturers even the top tier makers have for supporting their active electronics over the kind of time window many venues tend to keep their capital assets active speakers seem like a bad investment.

End rant.

[page daniel]

You Nailed it Riley.

Active speakers are an extravagance. Yeah I own a couple of sets of
they. Why, because I use Lectrosonics IFBt4's and Lectrosonics R400a
receivers. So that I only need power csbles to speakers. Also this is
for temporary spaces. So load in and load out benefits are significant.

So for active speakers fed with balanced audio cables one needs two
cables- power and audio. For passive speakers only one cable is needed
from a power amp. Placing power amps a reasonable distance from
speakers makes this easy. But suppose one needs a few stage monitors or
needs to hand a few speakers from overhead truss, there is often a
considerable savings in time and cabling. For most house set up not so
much. Before the days of powered speakers I used to save cabling with
amp racks on stage left and stage right with monitor amps tucked in the
pit.

When one has users who do not properly match amps to speakers, or cannot
set up crossover sends in gear, powered speakers have an advantage, but
for a properly installed system I would go with passive speakers.

page

[Jim vanBergen]

I'm giggling at your rant. 
Maybe I'm the only one who remembers the 80's and 90's... Meyer, EAW, & Apogee were the top products on Broadway, and users had to select amplifiers and wire them properly to the processor and speaker. Given the number of times we found phase issues and swapped hi/mid/low/sub pairs from people who a) put these together for a LIVING in shops, and b) working professionals who toured with and/or operated them daily, I have reason to respectfully disagree.
Simply put, every time I mixed a concert on a KF850 rig, I found at least ONE place where the rig was messed up between processor, amplifier, and speaker. Every.Single.Time.  

Self-powered speakers sure make things easier in some ways, but they also are easier to blow up from people who don't understand simple topics like amps, volts, RMS, and let's say for argument, the differences and usage of where dBV, dBm, and dBSPL. All come to play in dealing with first gain structure, and then PA alignment. 

Modern speaker designs are FAR better, I'm superbly grateful for the leaps in technology from d&B, L'Acoustics, Meyer, and a host of designers/manufacturers who pushed the industry forward. 

Getting back to the point: Copper, Cat, SDI and Fiber are the backbones I need. Maybe not so much fiber in a black box theatre, but certainly in a performing arts complex, a touring venue, or a theatre with over 1,000 seats. 

Cheers all- and now I'm walking away from my computer to go mix jazz... on a fantastic modern sound system. 

JvB 

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[Charlie Richmond]

Absolutely. Modern technology has reduced the art and science that sound designers were required to be experts in down to ..... nothing ....  and that's likely a good thing except for those who used to do that for a living. I'm glad I made my living doing that and can now relax and enjoy the shows!!  ;-)

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[pmaso...@gmail.com]

Many thanks to everyone who responded.  For SFX I have been using powered speakers, primarily as the available passives were not great,  and during the pandemic theatre management painted the walls and removed all the passive speaker distribution cables.  I appreciate the experiences many shared and will consider a passive option, too.  Note, the plan for cable distribution in the Black Box relies on horizontal cable trays to route cables from JBoxes (conduit stubs to cable tray) to the racks in the control room, so we have flexibility to accommodate changes as needed.  The overhead catwalks include adjustable pipes for lighting so there is no pipe grid to speak of as the catwalk system provides the grid.

A very Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah to all.

Peter Mason

[rbing...@juno.com]

Although the flexibility is nice to have, and you should keep paths for temporary or future cable needs we can’t predict.  I would encourage you to ask for full conduit path ways between racks/patchbays and custom AV panels in the venue with proper labeling.  It is the really the best way, obviously there is also a cost involved.  But it does a better job of rejecting potential interference when all cabling is within conduits as well as makes it a lot harder for someone to damage your cable infrastructure with an errant C clamp or whatever during a lighting hang.  (obviously I’m just picking on electricians by blaming them for all potential cable damage… but I’ve seen it happen often and it’s easy to do with black cables on a black pipe grid or catwalks that often don’t have a great work light system.

 

I would separate cable types each into their own conduit such as:

1 – Mic/analog audio and AES tie lines

2 – DATA and COM, so CAT6, intercom, also SDI and sometimes fiber optic, although some contractors like to keep Fiber in their own separate conduit for ease of the cable pull

3 – Loudspeaker level tie lines

4 – RF cabling – RF based ALS systems or Coax for RF mic antenna, although I prefer to keep all RF mic antenna as part of a stand alone system, sometimes clients really want it all installed in the main rack room

5 – AC power  (this is typically mandatory by code anyway)

 

Richard B Ingraham

 

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Sent: Monday, December 23, 2024 12:01 AM
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Subject: Re: [theatre-sound-list] New Black Box Theatre Sound

[Charlie Richmond]

You could also do very well by hiring Richard as your consultant ;-)

C-)

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