Python version monitoring

[Joachim Durchholz]

Hi all,

I just set up a wiki page where we can collect which Python versions we
may want to support for how long. You can find it at

https://github.com/sympy/sympy/wiki/Python-Version

for viewing, corrections, and updates.

What's missing is Mac OS, but I know too little to retrieve useful links
from there.
I'm pretty sure the Linux list is woefully incomplete. I have added
Fedora and Red Hat as stand-in lines, but I'm pretty sure some prominent
distros are missing (plus Fedora and Red Hat are almost the same anyway,
at least in some incarnations).
One huge gap is Android. I think SymPy is being used there, but I have
no information whatsoever about the Python situation there.

With the current (incomplete) information, I'm getting this deprecation
schedule:
2.6 can go out in 02-2016 with Debian Squeeze LTS EOL.
2.7 is used in platforms without an announced EOL.
3.1 can go out in 02-2016 with Debian Squeeze LTS EOL.
3.2 can go out in 05-2018 with Debian Wheezy LTS EOL.
3.3 can go out right now, no platform ever carried it.
3.4 is used in platforms without an announced EOL.

Regards,
Jo

[Peter Brady]

Python 3 is scheduled to be the default for Fedora 23 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Python_3_as_Default.  Fedora 22 will be maintained until 1 month after Fedora 24 comes out which likely means May/June 2016.

[Aaron Meurer]

Thanks. I think the only Python versions that we should consider
removing support for are 2.6 and 3.2 (we already don't support 3.1).

Aaron Meurer

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[Joachim Durchholz]

Am 23.06.2015 um 20:04 schrieb Peter Brady:
> Python 3 is scheduled to be the default for Fedora
> 23 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Python_3_as_Default.

Ah... that's the first step of phasing out 2.7: Making it unneeded for
the distro itself.
Though that's not going to affect our decisions at this time; we want to
support what users can use, and do not care that much about what the
distro uses for its own tools.

Is there a URL that tells us the timelines for the various versions of
interest?
And a URL that tells us which Python packages are available for what
version?

> Fedora 22
> will be maintained until 1 month after Fedora 24 comes out which likely
> means May/June 2016.

Ah, no ahead-of-time deadlines then.
Well, that's an "approx." entry then :-)

[Ondřej Čertík]

Hi Jo,

Thanks, I updated the table for RHEL6, which uses Python 2.6 and will
go out in 10-2020.

Note that I install my own modern stack in RHEL6 using Hashdist
(http://hashdist.github.io/), so I use Python 2.7 and 3.4 and I am
personally not affected by not supporting Python 2.6.

Ondrej

[Joachim Durchholz]

> Thanks, I updated the table for RHEL6, which uses Python 2.6 and will
> go out in 10-2020.

Mmm... it says "Nov 2020".
But I guess that's accurate enough for now :-9

If Production Phase 3 is the relevant cutoff phase, I guess we'll need
to add 5 as well.
And 7 as it's current, too.

Are there any URLs that tell us which Python version is available for
what Fedora version?

> Note that I install my own modern stack in RHEL6 using Hashdist
> (http://hashdist.github.io/), so I use Python 2.7 and 3.4 and I am
> personally not affected by not supporting Python 2.6.

Ah, Hashdist, virtualenv and the bunch are nice to have, but they don't
help us decide which versions we need to support for those people who
aren't familiar with setting and using toolchains :-)

[Jason Moore]

Ubuntu 12.04 is crossed out in the page but it is supported until April 2017 (and is still the version Travis uses). We likely need to support 12.04 Python versions longer.

I don't think there is much reason for dropping Python 3.3 as you suggest. It is still not that old and there aren't any big technical reasons we shouldn't support it.

Jason
moorepants.info
+01 530-601-9791

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[Joachim Durchholz]

Am 23.06.2015 um 22:37 schrieb Jason Moore:
> Ubuntu 12.04 is crossed out in the page but it is supported until April
> 2017 (and is still the version Travis uses). We likely need to support
> 12.04 Python versions longer.

Ah right, I somehow picked the "HWE date" from the minor upgrade lines.
Fixed. (Also fixed the end date for RHEL6.)

Though Ubuntu still isn't who's keeping 2.7 alive for the longest period
of time, that's still Debian 8 and RHEL6, which will provide it until
2020. 2.7 is going to be really ancient by that time... and maybe we'll
decide that distro support isn't going to be the most useful metric by then.

Please feel free to add more metrics to the wiki page if you know any!

> I don't think there is much reason for dropping Python 3.3 as you suggest.

I meant to say we *can* drop it, not that we *should*.
Also I'm pretty sure one or the other distro will have it. The list is
incomplete after all.

> It is still not that old and there aren't any big technical reasons we
> shouldn't support it.

Definitely.
Also, it's going to be much easier to say "we support versions from w to
z" instead of "we support versions w, y, and z", the latter is bound to
be confusing.

[Jason Moore]

Note that at PyCOn 2014 Guido announced Python 2.7 support will last until 2020:

http://www.i-programmer.info/news/216-python/7179-python-27-to-be-maintained-until-2020.html

Jason
moorepants.info
+01 530-601-9791

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[Francesco Bonazzi]

On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 00:05:26 UTC+2, Jason Moore wrote:

Note that at PyCOn 2014 Guido announced Python 2.7 support will last until 2020:

I still use Python 2.7. Is there anyone else like me here?

[Jason Moore]

I do.

Jason
moorepants.info
+01 530-601-9791

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[Joachim Durchholz]

Am 24.06.2015 um 01:24 schrieb Francesco Bonazzi:
>
> I still use Python 2.7. Is there anyone else like me here?

I'm using 2.6, but that's so that I won't inadvertently use anything
that doesn't work in later Pythons.

[Peter Brady]

Do pip or conda provide stats on which versions are downloaded?

Sent from my TI-83

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[Joachim Durchholz]

Am 24.06.2015 um 03:32 schrieb Peter Brady:
> Do pip or conda provide stats on which versions are downloaded?

I don't know, but I doubt that that's going to give very useful Python
version statistics.

I found
http://www.randalolson.com/2015/01/30/python-usage-survey-2014/
which is somewhat representative of programmers, not so much usage, but
maybe still interesting.

[Aaron Meurer]

conda has numbers, but I'm not sure what can be shared. I can tell you
that Python 2.7 is still extremely dominant, and that Python 3 is
gaining traction.

Aaron Meurer

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