Any interest in PC playing DSD over HDMI?

[Andrej Falout]

Hi there,

just a short note to gauge the interest, or the lack of, in the following idea:

There are currently several solution for playing SACD (and DVD-A) ISOs, on both Windows and Linux, but neither of this operating systems allow DSD to be transmitted over HDMI - as SACD players do.

This means that millions of native DSD capable, multi-channel DACs already in people's homes (called "Home Theatre Receivers" / AVRs), cannot be used for native DSD playback. Instead, a surround sound DSD enthusiast needs to spend a lot of $$$ for something he/she already has - just with a different kind of connector on it (USB instead of HDMI). (1)

On Windows, drivers for all HDMI capable cards (Intel, Nvidia, AMD) are closed source, so this is a non-started.

On Linux, I spent several weeks doing gap analysis, and I am now reasonably confident that it can be done. (2)

The end result would be that you could replace your SACD player completely, and play SACD ISOs from the hard disk, over HDMI as DSD, and to your receiver. (3)

So before I take this any further, I would want to know - do you guys think this is a good idea, and would use it?

Thanks

Andrej Falout

Footnotes:

(1) And that is assuming there are any desirable multi-channel DSD DACs to buy, which I'm not entirely convinced of.

(2) On Linux, there are currently only two apps that play SACD ISO (Jriver and MPD) but I would think that this should not be a significant reason for concern?

(3) Perhaps you do not cherish the idea of fiddling with Linux, but would be happy to use a packaged solution/appliance, that you can control with a remote app?

[Jan Bakker]

Sounds very interesting, and if it isn't too complicated I would certainly try to use it. Saves me burning discs.

Op zondag 30 november 2014 08:08:46 UTC+1 schreef Andrej Falout:

[grill]

Great initiative! I'm in.

[grill]

Btw, Andrej, I suggest you to make an announcement about your project over here, too: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/forum/

2014. november 30., vasárnap 8:08:46 UTC+1 időpontban Andrej Falout a következőt írta:

[Lizard King]

I'm also interested to see how this goes....

[Marktherob2005]

What about jitter which DAC's like the dragonfly say that they bypass for better sound quality? Would this be an issue with your solution? I would likely use this if I could use it on windows via NVIDIA card which you say isn't possible. My receiver does play DSD thru the usb port and only 2.0. If it could be pushed out of the USB port???????????? Here is something to think about designing a device that passes data thru the usb port in reverse direction to input to a receiver without having to write to usb flash and then plug into a receiver for playback basically a streamer for DSD.

[pjmckay]

Re the Main Question of interest in playing DSD from a PC..    I have NO interest and wondered if you'd considered an alternative solution might exist to save the spend, work, maintenance, and hassle?.

All I wanted to suggest is that nobody needs to burn the iso these days and would surely be better just converting the music.iso to a file supported by their hardware player.  I don't have an oppo but maybe one of those guys could suggest if they do what you need for instance.  Given that they support SACD natively they might play the ISO direct??? ; personally I just convert to multichannel flac and play on a PCH C200.  I'd see more use in having the file on a NAS (or local drive) feeding a hardware player than converting and playing on a PC in realtime.  No need to boot a PC up then drive it;  no whirring fans and screen on;  If the iso did play without further conversion on an Oppo that would be a further reason for me to consider upgrading, for sure.  Sit on couch; power on hifi, play music. :-)

ps  I've only just removed my htpc this weekend as it was hardly used; and laterally just for xbmc.. That's another milestone achieved and ideally wont be returning..

[Highlander]

I think it is a good idea and would use it. The idea of leaving optical media playback, mostly behind, sounds intriguing.

On Sunday, November 30, 2014 2:08:46 AM UTC-5, Andrej Falout wrote:

[Andrej Falout]

Hey guys,

not exactly an overwhelming response, but better some interest then none :)

To respond to concerns/questions (and a rant on subject of jitter):

@Marktherob2005: Jitter cannot be "bypassed". What can be done with it, is to replace significant jitter that occurs in transmission (USB,HDMI,...let's not talk about TCP/IP), with insignificant jitter that is inherent to high-precision clock source. This is called re-clocking, and is a very simple form of FIFO buffer - where the FO part is under control of high precision local clock source.

Pretty much any DAC chip, with pretensions to audiophile quality, made in last 10 years or so, has an input for external clock, and FIFO buffer is a necessity of most DAC designs - DSD or PCM. Weather the manufacturer of the commercial DAC product chooses to use it, is another matter. Certainly, there is "some" cost involved. Perhaps they prefer to sell you extra 1000$ worth of special USB interface and cables instead - model "SuperSnakeOil 5000 Ultra XL". If often helps to remember that marketing guys like solutions they can sell, and they do there best to find problems this solutions can then "solve". Sounds familiar?

Audio professionals have a field day with this stuff, as every pro DAC ever made, has a separate clock input for this exact reason. Then you connect that to something like Apogee's Big Ben, and laugh.

Even the cheapest clock in year 2014 beats the best jitter minimising transmission method(s), by a huge margin. Assuming that the originating clock was any good in the first place - if it was not, then by a huge huge giganormous margin.. Most receivers I am targeting with this solution, have reasonable clock in them, that they need because of the nature of HDMI, as much as they need it for the DSP functionality for DRC and similar. Therefore, the answer (????????????) is, that the proposed solution is as good in respect to jitter, as your receiver is. Which is typically not bad at all.

Second, Windows is not an option, as both Windows sound sub-system, and AMD/NVidia/Intel HDMI drivers are closed source. I have some indication that Microsoft actually passes bitstreams as-is when they are not flagged properly, even if this is not documented anywhere... but I have no desire to fiddle with an engine under hood welded shut.

"My receiver does play DSD thru the usb port and only 2.0." - You have an receiver that accepts DSD stream over USB? You probably mean that your receiver reads DSD file from a storage device connected to receiver's USB port?

"If it could be pushed out of the USB port???????????? " - Of course it can, you can do that today - even on Windows :) But you probably mean "to push DSD files onto the storage device, which is connected to receiver’s USB port". Which you also can, by buying any simple single disk NAS device that has an USB port. Connect USB port to the receiver, Ethernet port to your network, and drag and drop DSD files from your networked PC onto the NAS. Done.

> Re the Main Question of interest in playing DSD from a PC..    I have NO interest and wondered if you'd
> considered an alternative solution might exist to save the spend, work, maintenance, and hassle?.

Not sure who was quoted here, but what would that "alternative solution" be?

@pjmckay: what I am proposing, does not impact ISO vs. extracted files playback - you can use both to send DSD over HDMI. SACD ISO file is just a file system container for DSD files. Weather you choose to extract them on the fly, or in advance, has no impact to my proposal.

I agree that if hardware devices played SACD ISOs, all of this would not be such an issue. But they don't, and they never will (for copyright reasons). You can play DSD files on few hardware devices that can pass DSD trough HDMI, such as Oppo - if you are happy using 20th century user interface, and a suitcase full of limitations. Or DLNA, which is just plain awful, IMNSHO. My goal is to replace hardware player, with a fan-less, always-on PC, that can output DSD over HDMI. To quote you, "Sit on couch; power on hifi, play music. :-)"

I'll let you know how it goes.

Andrej

Andrej Falout
NZ: +64(21)02566825 AU: +61(45)1166010 US: +1(360)4880970 HR:+385(91)1520436

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[Stephen Brandon]

Just to chime in because I meant to earlier, I think this sounds like a very interesting project, I hope you go forward with it and I hope you post updates on how it's going. Sadly my receiver doesn't play DSD nativly, so I can't really offer to help out much with testing or even really benefit from this at the moment, but I definitely think it sounds like an interesting and useful project!

[trad...@gmail.com]

Andrej, this topic is very interesting.  Eventhough I'm happy with a DSD to PCM conversion for various reasons, I wouldn't mind expanding into a system that's capable of passing DSD directly to my DAC (Oppo 105) via HDMI.  I had no idea it was a Windows issue.  On the Oppo discussion thread, they state DSD cannot be passed through the Oppo's HDMI input.  I'm now wondering if it actually can if Windows allowed it (which you've made clear that it doesn't and probably never will).  Oppo's A-synchronous USB input does allow DSD - but only two channel.  This is the surround forum and I love multichannel audio, so I'm really hoping Oppo's next player will allow multichannel DSD through it's A-synch USB input.  

Oppo's regular USB input (in which you connect a mass storage device) can handle stereo and multichannel DSD files.  But as you nailed it on the head, the interface leaves a lot to be desired.  I hate it.  UPNP/DLNA can also pass DSD (stereo and multichannel), but is an absolute headache for those of us who like to keep the ISO format and not extract to DSF/DFF.  This is why I stick to using Foobar and having it convert to PCM and then pass to my Oppo via HDMI.  

The Exasound is the only DAC I'm aware of that can handle stereo and multichannel DSD files through it's USB from the computer.  At $3,800, it's just not worth it to me.

I'm very interested in your solutions.  But I don't know anything about Linux and not about to take the time to learn and build a separate Linux computer.  I'm confused about your all-in-one box solution.  Is it a separate device that will connect to my Windows computer via USB or other interface?  Or is it a standalone unit - where I need to connect a monitor, keyboard, and mouse to it directly?  A big concern would be it's interface.  I've spent quite some time learning to use and customize Foobar.  I've gotten just the way I want it.  Some people prefer JRiver or XBMC.  Can the interface in your one-box solution keep everyone happy???  I guess we need more details.

And lastly, thanks for all your efforts into this hobby!  

[Andrej Falout]

Hi,

On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 7:22 PM, <trad...@gmail.com> wrote:

 I'm now wondering if it actually can if Windows allowed it (which you've made clear that it doesn't and probably never will).

Oppo HDMI receiver (as opposed to transmitter) would need to have DSD pass-trough implemented, which it does not. As the only devices currently able to transmit DSD over HDMI are SACD players. So it definitely does not make sense for Oppo to had implemented that. It would result in ability for an SACD player to use another SACD player as a DAC... nonsense.

On the subject of Windows "allowing it", ironically, Microsoft explicitly specifies possibility for the "third party solution" for both DSD and DST :

 
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dd316761%28v=vs.85%29.aspx

"Microsoft-provided HD Audio class driver supports PCM, AC3, DTS, AAC, Dolby Digital Plus, WMA Pro, MAT(MLP) formats. The GUIDs for the compressed audio formats that are not supported by the HD audio class driver and can be implemented by third-party solutions are listed in the following table.

CEA 861 Type     SubFormat GUID     Description

00000008-0cea-0010-8000-00aa00389b71 KSDATAFORMAT_SUBTYPE_IEC61937_ATRAC     Adaptive Transform Acoustic Coding (ATRAC) 0x09 

00000009-0cea-0010-8000-00aa00389b71 KSDATAFORMAT_SUBTYPE_IEC61937_ONE_BIT_AUDIO <<<<<<<<<<<<<< !!!!!!!    One-Bit Audio 0x0d 

0000000d-0cea-0010-8000-00aa00389b71 KSDATAFORMAT_SUBTYPE_IEC61937_DST <<<<<<<<<<<<<< !!!!!!! Direct Stream Transport (DST)—lossless compressed DSD (Direct Stream Digital). "

That is all in CEA 861 specs anyway.

I just dont want to gamble on proprietary closed source drivers (NVidia, AMD, Intel) on Windows handling this correctly, as if they dont, there is nothing I will be able to do about it.

 Oppo's A-synchronous USB input does allow DSD - but only two channel.  This is the surround forum and I love multichannel audio, so I'm really hoping Oppo's next player will allow multichannel DSD through it's A-synch USB input.  

Oh yes please :) I'm cheering for that one. And with appropriate USB controller, that would be a peace of cake to implement. I am almost betting they will do that.

Anyone knows when will Oppo replace current line - it's been over 2 years now?

 

However, that is for me less desirable then just using my existing multichannel DAC with HDMI input, as I already have it, and it's really really good. :)

Additionally, with this method, at least 5 million of the receivers already in people's living rooms worldwide would magically become DSD multi-channel capable DACs. (5m is my estimate of AVRs with DSD DACs that have HDMI inputs, manufactured in last 10 years. Just Onkyo made some 3 millions in that period)

Oppo's regular USB input (in which you connect a mass storage device) can handle stereo and multichannel DSD files.  But as you nailed it on the head, the interface leaves a lot to be desired.  I hate it.

Not to mention that even if you accepted all the UI limitations, and also format limitations, meta-data limitations... one still has to extract DSD from ISOs first. Something that would take a considerable effort, time, disk space and therefore money (in my case)

 

 UPNP/DLNA can also pass DSD (stereo and multichannel), but is an absolute headache for those of us who like to keep the ISO format and not extract to DSF/DFF.  This is why I stick to using Foobar and having it convert to PCM and then pass to my Oppo via HDMI.  

You can also stream native DSD to Oppo via UPnP directly from FooBar - therefore ISO. Tried it, it works - most of the time. Then it stops working. Then it works if it's sunny. As we agree, UPnP is a mess. To say it politely. Shame really.

 

The Exasound is the only DAC I'm aware of that can handle stereo and multichannel DSD files through it's USB from the computer.  At $3,800, it's just not worth it to me.

I wonder when will someone with more HW skills then mine, take something like

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DAC-32384-DSD-32Bit-384KHz-1bit-5-6MHz-DSD128-8Channels-DAC-Based-on-ES9018-/231018237895

And marry it with something like :

http://www.rigisystems.net/index.php/usbpalen.html

First class (Ess 9018) 8-channel DSD DAC right there, with PSU and case, maybe 500$

Add I/V converter for custom analogue stages (98 USD):

 http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/IV-3D-8CH-IV-Converter-for-DAC-32384-DSD-/231018253718

 

I'm very interested in your solutions.  But I don't know anything about Linux and not about to take the time to learn and build a separate Linux computer.  I'm confused about your all-in-one box solution.  Is it a separate device that will connect to my Windows computer via USB or other interface?  Or is it a standalone unit - where I need to connect a monitor, keyboard, and mouse to it directly? 

Plenty of appliance-type fanless devices based on Linux are readily available; such as Vortexbox based (Sonore and the likes) and plenty of cheap stuff on eBay such as http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2TB-Vortexbox-NAS-CD-Ripper-Music-Server-Streamer-For-Apple-SONOS-Squeezebox-/171554379151

 

They are intended for use and "headless", always-on appliances, eg. no monitor, no keyboard. They are controlled trough the iOS/Android remote apps (MPD/SBS/LMS/...which there are abundance to choose from, based on your idea of good user interface) and trough standard web browsers.

You can naturally use any PC barebones or otherwise, instead, such as 175$ Intel NUC: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-Intel-BOXDN2820FYKH0-Single-Pack-DN2820FYK-NUC-/390847876243 and simply put a appropriate audiophile distro on it - which is dead easy. Maybe even VortexBox :)

Funny someone is actually selling Oppo customised Vortexbox appliance: http://www.ebay.com/itm/LIV-Zen-4Tb-Vortexbox-BluRay-Music-Media-Server-for-Oppo-BDP-95-BDP-103-BDP-105-/251368273615

"Official".... LOL "not public beta version" Double-LOL :)

A big concern would be it's interface.  I've spent quite some time learning to use and customize Foobar.  I've gotten just the way I want it.  Some people prefer JRiver or XBMC.  Can the interface in your one-box solution keep everyone happy???  I guess we need more details.

Well if you insist on the full-blown GUI with a keyboard mouse and monitor attached to the box (why?) you could go with  http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Id

Which is just Intel NUC with pre-installed Linux and JRiver app. Note that statement on that page:

"Multichannel and DSD are supported over HDMI. "

... is confirmed to be incorrect. I had requested JRiver guys to remove it several times, but they had chosen to ignore me. It should read "Multichannel is supported over HDMI"

Foobar is not in this game I'm afraid, even if it does run on Linux via Wine, it does not have direct access to Alsa - which will be required to pass DSD over HDMI.

 

And lastly, thanks for all your efforts into this hobby!  

Cheers :)

Andrej

 

[ROBERT]

Pardon my naivety, but if Windows is the problem, is it possible to use non Windows software to perform this?

--

[Andrej Falout]

Hi Robert,

Window is not a problem as such. Situation is more or less the same on Windows and Linux - Both operating system sound framework and HDMI drivers do not have DSD bitstreaming over HDMI implemented.

The reason I propose Linux to implement this, is that the source code for both components is available, so this functionality can be implemented by anyone with knowledge and time.

On Windows, theoretically, this can be implemented too, but the only parties that can be sure of success, are Microsoft and vendors that make HDMI device drivers (AMD, Nvidia, Intel) - as only they have the source code for it.

So yes, the "use non Windows software to perform this" is what I intend to do.

Andrej Falout
NZ: +64(21)02566825 AU: +61(45)1166010 US: +1(360)4880970 HR:+385(91)1520436

[sp4zz]

Hey there, long time lurker, first time poster here. Don't have much to add except a link that some of you may find helpful when dealing with DSD capable USB DACs. Sorry if this is a useless post. Anyways, here is the DSD DB link -> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgVhKcl_3lHfdFVyenBBNjNpQ2lieG81WGpqQTNfVUE#gid=0

[jorg...@gmail.com]

I just wanted to give you the heads up. Being able to play SACD ISO in the best possible way has been my wet dream since the format was decrypted for the first time. My RX-V 3067 has a DAD-capable Burr-Brown DAC and my modified Pioneer BDP-450 can send DSD from file-mounted SACD ISO via DSD-over-HDMI. The solution is limited in terms of browsing and managing a larger collection, though. So a PC or even Linux (maybe I could run it in a virtual machine) that could do DSD-over-HDMI with foobar2000, where I have tagged all my SACD ISOs would be an incredible feat. So far only DSD-over-ASIO has been made to work but only with one of those expensive USB-DACs. Of course, newer digital receivers like the Pioneers can even act like USB-DACs, but they're still limited to stereo.

[Andrej Falout]

Hi,

that list shows well the problem I am trying to address with DSD oer HDMI;

field "Multichannel DSD is either empty, or it has comments such as "Yes, if stacked", with a single unit price tag from 1500$ and up. Times 3, then.

(Oppo's don't count, as they do multichannel DSD only over DLNA or from a attached storage) and over USB only do stereo.

Andrej Falout

--

[Andrej Falout]

Hi,

On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 11:17 AM, <jorg...@gmail.com> wrote:

I just wanted to give you the heads up. Being able to play SACD ISO in the best possible way has been my wet dream since the format was decrypted for the first time.

Many players can do that, today. What they cannot do, is DSD over HDMI.

 

My RX-V 3067 has a DAD-capable Burr-Brown DAC

(Rant: why are we still calling TI DAC chips "Burr-Brown"? No such thing no more...for a long time now. It's not a brand, it's not a design or method, it's not even a division inside TI. Its a zombie...)

 

So a PC or even Linux

On a music appliance I intend this to work on, you will see Linux as much as a Samsung phone user see Linux on an Android phone. Eg. never.

On the sidenote, seeing Linux this days, might make you want to dump your Windows 8 in a flash...

 

(maybe I could run it in a virtual machine)

That wont work as no hipervisor in existence has a HDMI pass-trough. Remember that in HDMI audio is something attached to a video stream, and without it cannot exist - even if that video stream is blank.

 

that could do DSD-over-HDMI with foobar2000

Wont work as Foobar is a Windows application, and even when running on Linux (via Wine) it has no direct access to HDMI Alsa driver... I think. Will double check.

 

, where I have tagged all my SACD ISOs

I assume you used Foobar XML tagging for ISO's? I tried convincing Maxim that tagging compatibility between MPD and and Foobar is a great idea, but I think he is leaning towards .cue files for this purpose in MPD... Then again, Foobar can read .cue files already, just not for SACD ISOs...

 

would be an incredible feat. So far only DSD-over-ASIO has been made to work

Linux also can stream native DSD over USB, and DoP'd DSD over any PCM link. I would think Windows can do that too.

Andrej

[Jogi]

Hi Andrej,

I just found this post/group today. The posts seem pretty old. Did you go for it? What is the status?
I recently bought an AVR which states to be capable of receiving DSD over HDMI because I was to naive to think that I could just connect a rasberry pi 2 to it and it would work. However, your solution sounds like exactly what I would need.

Can you give a short update if there is still hope for me to save the money for buying a pricy SACD-Player which can deliver DSD over hdmi?

Cheers,
Joachim

[grill]

+1

@Jogi, I'm wondering if your Rasberry Pi 2 is able to bitstream HD video and audio data through HDMI?

[Andrej Falout]

Hi Joachim,

unfortunately I had to give up when one kernel developer decided that this is not possible due to the missing function on PC HDMI chipsets, which he could not name or say exactly what it does (that cannot be done without hardware support).

So basically he declared that any code I may come up with will not be accepted - period. Search Alsa dev list if interested in details.

I tried to get a comment from Intel and nVidia hardware people on this, but never managed to get any response. Shame.

In my opinion, this is nonsense. "Packetising" he seemed to be referring to, can easily be done in software. As it is done when sending native DSD over USB.

Cheers, Andrej

[Jogi]

Uh, thats bad news. Thanks anyway...

[Lokkerman]

In other words the marketing folks would not allow. Been there got the Tee-shirt as an ex-product director; sorry folks.

--

[Nexus]

Good evening everyone,

despite the risk in beating a dead horse, I am attempting another run on the fortress but this time with an android army ;-).

The goal is to natively output DSD (via HDMI) on premium Android set-top boxes like the Google Nexus Player or NVIDIA SHIELD TV.

If its feasible and implemented (fingers crossed) a lot more devices could benefit (Kodi boxes running Android) in the end though.

If you would also like to have this feature (no PCM conversion, no DSD USB thinggy, no DSD over PCM [DoP] encapsulation - just plain native DSD according to the HDMI specs) enabled - drop a comment @ https://issuetracker.google.com/issues/73956275 and hit the star button ;-)

The guys from NativeDSD have pointed me towards a jukebox from the Philippines which apparently can stream out DSD natively via HDMI.

Over and out.

[Mark Helfant]

Yes, very important, I'd pay money to be able to get the sound of my multichannel sacdr's without having store physical discs.  Please note that for stereo SACD iso's you can store DSF files and they'll play fine over a network or USB stick or external hard drive.