--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Stellar Developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to stellar-dev...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to stell...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/stellar-dev.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/stellar-dev/CALGT9GMK%3Dj%2B-mSK2%2Be_68K5rGJg2n38WZpFrdXgp1vb8H7165w%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/stellar-dev/CAEYuE%3Dv%2B1xy-4f7GDYQv5rfYDmFH_AgTM%2BWvbvhzZHOne1kcPQ%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/stellar-dev/CACUz3Rfdhdw7PPVhzVEJ%2BNFR9NG2C9Kc%3DU2afzX_8DwuS5xgzA%40mail.gmail.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/stellar-dev/CAAeSNL_0ZK_9b0mPrct162-0q7bCOr7PzM%3DNbUcWeKXPLBDQSQ%40mail.gmail.com.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Stellar Developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to stellar-dev...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to stell...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/stellar-dev.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/stellar-dev/87r2h3q405.fsf%40ta.scs.stanford.edu.
I say get rid of it or distribute it to validators by some scheme as to encourage network reliability.
Because of all the assets that are going to grow on the network, it is unlikely we reach the point were liquidity is missing. Thus, pushing investors out in order to release liquidity would only damage the network.
I agree with you that productive nodes of the network should properly be compensated. However, I'm not sure validators can really be said productive, as in case of chain split everybody would probably follow the Stellar Foundation truth. I question their utility besides redundancy, which is already sufficient anyway.
However, side-chains gatekeepers and lightning network gateways are both going to be a critical component in the upcoming scalability race and should receive proper incentive to they can develop at a good rythm.
A very great thing in the current design is that the more the main chain is overloaded, the more fee will raise so the more those hubs will get incentive through fee redistribution to play their role in lightening main chain load.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Stellar Developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to stellar-dev...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to stell...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/stellar-dev.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/stellar-dev/3d9b7f4e-45f2-4505-8ce5-05e30bf0287d%40googlegroups.com.
Title: Disable Inflation Mechanism
Author: OrbitLens <orbit...@gmail.com>
Status: Draft
Created: 2019-07-11
Updated: 2019-07-11
Discussion: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/stellar-dev/LIFvbMi9jPo
Protocol version: TBD
This CAP removes the inflation mechanism.
Inflation mechanism was originally planned as a simple way for users to support important ecosystem projects and keep the overall XLM supply slightly inflationary.
Turning off inflation requires several changes in Stellar Core, namely Inflation
and SetOptions
operations behavior, as well as fees processing routine. At the same
time, it can be implemented without XDR changes and breaking protocol
changes.
Inflation
operation always returns INFLATION_NOT_TIME
result code.SetOptions
operation returns SET_OPTIONS_INVALID_INFLATION
result code when a users tries to change inflationDest
.feePool
and inflationSeq
for a newly created ledger are set to zero.The proposed approach does not require breaking protocol changes and allows turning on the inflation mechanism in the future if needed. Due to the simplicity of proposed changes, the implementation potentially should require minimum efforts.
None.
This CAP contains no breaking changes and is fully backward compatible.
inflationDest
field from Account
entry, as well as feePool
and inflationSeq
from LedgerHeader
?Disable Inflation Mechanism CAP
Preamble
CAP: TBD
Title: Disable Inflation Mechanism Author: OrbitLens <orbi...@gmail.com> Status: Draft Created: 2019-07-11 Updated: 2019-07-11 Discussion: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/stellar-dev/LIFvbMi9jPo Protocol version: TBD
Disagree with the concept of removing inflation and proposed CAP.
First of all, the narrative that “inflation doesn't serve its original purpose” is questionable today. LOBSTR and Stellarterm are two examples of how inflation helps with funding the ecosystem projects today. (inflation stats: 115,000+ accounts with ~90M XLM aggregated votes).
RippleFox and Binance are other examples of the businesses that already benefit from Stellar inflation. Several other projects such as Stellarport, Stronghold and Centaurus were putting efforts into collecting payouts from inflation. And as more XLM are distributed, it will become easier to overcome inflation votes threshold, and start receiving payouts.
Second, we are working to simplify access to inflation payouts for other entities (ecosystem projects) by giving access to LOBSTR inflation pool and removing min vote threshold. Several projects have expressed their interest and will be starting beta test shortly - so the number of companies getting that benefit from inflation will increase in the future.
Also, non-inflationary currency is de facto deflationary due to lost keys, bugs etc.
Actually, it’s possible that the percentage of the coins lost forever each year exceeds the 1% inflation rate of Stellar.
It could be argued, that mass adoption of a crypto currency requires multiple transactions and people constantly using their coins, while deflationary currency provides an incentive to hold the currency and punishes spending.
However, we are also seeing some concerns with the current situation around inflation as well.
Since SDF gets over 95% of inflation payouts (their inflation address currently has 94B+ XLM votes), which means that it receives roughly 1,000,000,000 (1 billion) XLM from inflation on a yearly basis. This is probably comparable to the amounts that SDF distributed to end users and partners during the last year.
As far as I know, SDF has not clarified yet how they intend to use these 5+ billion lumens received from inflation. Some people have expressed the idea that SDF should not claim inflation over non-distributed lumens, or, since the protocol does not know which lumens are distributed, just burn the inflation payouts from non-distributed lumens. This can be done by sending XLM to a locked account and does not require a protocol change.
We believe that this solution would resolve the concerns of the majority of community members that currently vote against inflation.
Disable Inflation Mechanism CAP
Preamble
CAP: TBD
Title: Disable Inflation Mechanism Author: OrbitLens <orbi...@gmail.com> Status: Draft Created: 2019-07-11 Updated: 2019-07-11 Discussion: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/stellar-dev/LIFvbMi9jPo Protocol version: TBD
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Stellar Developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to stellar-dev...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to stell...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/stellar-dev.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/stellar-dev/fb77a041-4a20-467a-8a5b-014662188df6%40googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/stellar-dev/CAJsXWD%3DpD47O5wMDednWvsODuX%2BRusWkE62iz28U4juNz2Su1A%40mail.gmail.com.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to stell...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to stell...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/stellar-dev.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/stellar-dev/fb77a041-4a20-467a-8a5b-014662188df6%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Stellar Developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to stell...@googlegroups.com.
First of all, the narrative that “inflation doesn't serve its original purpose” is questionable today. LOBSTR and Stellarterm are two examples of how inflation helps with funding the ecosystem projects today.
RippleFox and Binance are other examples of the businesses that already benefit from Stellar inflation.
Also, non-inflationary currency is de facto deflationary due to lost keys, bugs etc.
Actually, it’s possible that the percentage of the coins lost forever each year exceeds the 1% inflation rate of Stellar.
I'm torn on this decision as I think technically speaking I agree. However, from a community standpoint this could and I think has a very high potential to destroy the reputation of Stellar. Tread lightly.
amount of network operations caused by inflation to 20K per week
Disable Inflation Mechanism CAP
Preamble
CAP: TBD
Title: Disable Inflation Mechanism Author: OrbitLens <orbi...@gmail.com> Status: Draft Created: 2019-07-11 Updated: 2019-07-11 Discussion: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/stellar-dev/LIFvbMi9jPo Protocol version: TBD
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "Stellar Developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/stellar-dev/LIFvbMi9jPo/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to stellar-dev...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to stell...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/stellar-dev.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/stellar-dev/e85734e1-cf66-485d-8f7d-57694063e68e%40googlegroups.com.
Disable Inflation Mechanism CAP
Preamble
CAP: TBD
Title: Disable Inflation Mechanism Author: OrbitLens <orbi...@gmail.com> Status: Draft Created: 2019-07-11 Updated: 2019-07-11 Discussion: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/stellar-dev/LIFvbMi9jPo Protocol version: TBD
Disable Inflation Mechanism CAP
Preamble
CAP: TBD
Title: Disable Inflation Mechanism Author: OrbitLens <orbi...@gmail.com> Status: Draft Created: 2019-07-11 Updated: 2019-07-11 Discussion: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/stellar-dev/LIFvbMi9jPo Protocol version: TBD
> It look like most regular users support disabling inflation: https://www.reddit.com/r/Stellar/comments/cbz8ss/disable_inflation_mechanism_cap/
I could also argue that a similar amount of users want the inflation, you can not judge the number of votes from a Reddit post since those are susceptible to be manipulated and a large amount of users don't check (or even use) the sub every day. I know it better than anyone here since I'm a mod there. The chance of your post being rigged is very high, like very very high. You don't need to even validate your email, you create an account in 5 secs, literally, and you comment whatever you want. Unfortunately, I can not justify my sources but the average user does have more than one account and multiple upvotes and comments do come from the same IPs. Just because there's a number of users in that thread saying they want to remove inflation it does not mean that most of the community wants to remove it, maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. I can also argue that with the current market feelings most users are not checking the sub either r/Stellar or r/Bitcoin or whatever. Probably they go to coinmarketcap and if the price action doesn't justify it then they stop there. Stats just dropped in all cryptocurrency communities so your argument that most regular users want to remove it based on some Reddit comments is not valid until being done via a proper channel for voting.
A very important aspect is that recently the Stellar documentation was updated, the protocol does require an address to have at least 100 XLM to receive inflation so inflation pools distributing to addresses with less than 100 XLM are doing it wrong. The minimum balance of 100 XLM at the protocol level is a great thing and I could even see this being increased and the threshold to claim it being reduced.
I'm sorry to say this but most users wanting to remove inflation, at this point, want to do it for two reasons:
1) They don't want SDF to claim inflation from uncirculated supply;
2) They want to prevent the price of XLM to go down.
I think it will be better to see inflation from a technical standpoint. What does it do to the economy? What are its key attributes and characteristics? How can it help the ecosystem on the long term? How can we use inflaton to our advantage? But not using it as a guinea pig just because something is wrong.
If the price per XLM unit goes up most users love inflation because psychologically you should receive more value and more assets, which isn't even true. If the price per XLM unit goes down then everyone wants to find all the reasons available to justify it and its just simple to blame inflation when the core problem is somewhere else.
All the information is there, but to sum it up Gleb is correct. You should count the number of users above 100 XLM and you will see that not much inflation goes into circulation. I also argue that 90% OR MORE of people receiving inflation are not seeling it so the price per XLM going down due to inflation is an absurd pretense intended to create a narrative from and for retail investors.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Stellar Developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to stellar-dev...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/stellar-dev/140f2e5b-2766-4e43-896e-24e4189c9ce8%40googlegroups.com.
The chance of your post being rigged is very high, like very very high. You don't need to even validate your email, you create an account in 5 secs, literally, and you comment whatever you want. Unfortunately, I can not justify my sources but the average user does have more than one account and multiple upvotes and comments do come from the same IPs. Just because there's a number of users in that thread saying they want to remove inflation it does not mean that most of the community wants to remove it, maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. I can also argue that with the current market feelings most users are not checking the sub either r/Stellar or r/Bitcoin or whatever. Probably they go to coinmarketcap and if the price action doesn't justify it then they stop there. Stats just dropped in all cryptocurrency communities so your argument that most regular users want to remove it based on some Reddit comments is not valid until being done via a proper channel for voting.
What I'm trying to say is that some of the community members want to remove inflation because they think that somehow Lumen's price will go to x100 or x1000 or that they will be multi-millionaires and a unit of XLM will be valued $1000.
I stand by my statement that 90% or more of single users that receive inflation are not selling it but instead they compound it. I'm happy to work with Orbit if he wants to verify this.
Well, I don't argue with that. You're correct that a self-sovereign currency's inflation is not the same as Stellar's inflation. It's even worse.A self-sovereign currency's inflation has one entity printing new money and devaluing the money of its population. Fiat currency is based on debt and there will be more money in circulation while you will be holding the exact same amount. Stellar's inflation is equally distributed among voters and because everyone gets the same inflation it completely refutes the effect of devaluation because you get the very same 1% percentage as everyone else. There is no reasoning at all to sell the inflation received because if you sell it then you will receive less in the next week, it acts as an incentive to not sell and keep compounding. Basic!
If inflation is to be removed then don't make a decision just because of the majority of users, mostly retail investors, want it out of their beliefs. Do the math and study the economic repercussions of it. When inflation was included in the protocol it was a decision made by SDF because of their beliefs and future structural plans for Stellar network, the same way if it will be removed then just go back and analyze those same principles and beliefs to try to comply, or not.
Inflation goal was since the beginning to help people fund themselves and it did and does, serve that purpose. Initially, Stellar inflation was named "Stellar creation" for a reason - to enable novel business models or to fund causes they support (https://web.archive.org/web/20140813100016/https://www.stellar.org/about/mandate/#Stellar_creation). SDF even decreased the amount to be eligible to participate in inflation.
A year ago it was all alright, people loved inflation, even the Reddit post I made when we launched the Lumenaut Pool gathered around 1000 votes, one of the most voted posts on r/Stellar. It all changed when someone brought awareness that SDF was voting for inflation with the uncirculated supply. All of a sudden the community started to be divided - think about that for a second! MrDrool post on r/cc and his/her plot with a dozen more users from the community, some that shall not be named and that is still present here to this day, didn't help. It was and still is an orchestrated scheme to try to change the network to their own desire. In my perspective, Stellar didn't change from when "it was the greatest crypto ever" to the "worse crypto ever", what changed was the education some people received from certain features that they weren't educated in the first place because they didn't DYOR.
What I'm trying to say is that some of the community members want to remove inflation because they think that somehow Lumen's price will go to x100 or x1000 or that they will be multi-millionaires and a unit of XLM will be valued $1000. This is what will happen:
1) Some alts will have a run from Bitcoin, not all of them like in the run from 2017 if XLM is happy to be in this list some users will be happy that inflation was removed, thinking it was the best decision ever and that their bags are gold. Then the market will correct and the FUD will come again as in "why the price is going down if there's no inflation?"
2) Inflation will be removed and XLM will not be part of the few alts that will have a run and the FUD will come again as in "why the price is going down if there's no inflation?"
It's sad to see a project being changed because a few somehow believe their bags will pump and because of the negativity that has gone far enough as a basis to this change.
Inflation use cases:1) People have to hold to receive the distribution if you don't keep holding only THEN you WILL devalue your holdings.
2) Its primordial objective was funding projects and it did and does for many (Lobstr, Stellarterm, Stellarport, Lumenaut, GiveDirect, others that shall not be named, even others trough Lobstr Inflation Program).
3) Compensates for the past and future lost, frozen, or hacked XLM.
4) Maintains the ecosystem stable (check "lower consumer spending", "lower growth" and "squeeze disposable income" in economy).
5) Can promote spending to certain people and to a certain extent, instead of saving. However, you have to have a lot, to be able to have that you also have to spend a lot, to be able to then spend a lot. Say you have 10 million then you can have $160 (at current price) to buy goods every week.
6) Reduces the real value of debt.
7) It will be beneficial if Stellar is what it's meant to be, a currency. Not a psychological digital precious metal in the form of numbers that IS NOT controlled by nature or the randomization of the Universe.
8) Could be used to distribute the uncirculated supply. Implement a KYC service or partner with someone to distribute the uncirculated supply to those addresses with KYC receiving inflation, bit by bit. Lumenaut could work with SDF to make this happen.
9) Use it to reward validators, instead of removing inflation change the protocol and make it contribute to a healthy network similar to Cosmos (https://hub.cosmos.network/#the-atom).
Further reading:
Advantages of inflation - https://www.economicshelp.org/2007/10/advantages-of-inflation.html
Disadvantages of inflation - https://www.economicshelp.org/macroeconomics/inflation/costs-inflation/
Some of those pros and cons do apply here, in cryptocurrencies. Mostly it's important if inflation is temporary, low, fixed, and anticipated.
Some facts:
1) Lumenaut Pool, the biggest pool till last month (I haven't checked Binance or Poloniex pools yet), received in 1.6 years a total of 10,066,289.6738 XLM. That's just 10 million! I repeat, just 10 million in more than one year. It's absolutely nothing compared to a big trader's transaction, a single SDF transaction done in a week or a month from its operation's address, nothing compared to the XLM being holden by exchanges, less than SBC total award per year, less than half compared to the 2 million that SDF gives as a Grant via their partnership program. In fact, some users voting for Lumenaut have more than that 10 million XLM, some of them also have it divided into multiple addresses where those addresses belong to the same people/company.
2) More coins coming into circulation only have a negative effect on price if they are all sold BUT if they're sold then it means someone wants to buy them. Also, before alleging "negative effect on price" make a study to see if people are actually selling all of their received portion of inflation.
3) More coins coming into your address will not make you richer or poorer but people not voting for inflation will be poorer. If the price "crashes" but you also receive inflation then your value is stabilized whereas holdings of people not voting for inflation are being devalued. That's the beauty of it, vote for inflation and you lose nothing, but to vote for inflation you also need to hold Lumens in the first place.
4) I do see and know people holding just to receive inflation, some of the millions. I also believe they would not hold that much if there's no incentive for it.
5) I stand by my statement that 90% or more of single users that receive inflation are not selling it but instead they compound it. I'm happy to work with Orbit if he wants to verify this.
6) SDF is helping the community and projects with XLM from the very same mechanism intended to be removed.
Some questions:1) What will happen when/if Stellar becomes what it intends to be and uncirculated supply is distributed? Another CAP will be written to bring back inflation because it turned out a hyped deflationary system?
2) Who should decide to remove inflation? SDF? The CAP team which is composed of SDF members? Why not validators? Why not take a vote to decide based on governance and not on the amount of Reddit comments/votes?
3) Will there be any kind of legal or regulatory consequence to SDF from making this decision? And if it's removed, then needed again, and decided that it should be implemented again, will that decision bring a legal or regulatory consequence to SDF?
4) Is it being removed because it's "complicated" or because it devalues the Stellar's native currency? If it's the former isn't it better to improve it? If it's the later isn't that market manipulation?
5) Isn't Stellar's network primordial concern value tokenization? Doesn't inflation mitigate the cost of the network for that same tokenization trough custodial accounts?
6) Wouldn't be better to increase the min balance to be eligible to vote for inflation and even decrease/increase the amount to claim part of inflation distribution? If fees and min account balance are adjustable why not adjust inflation parameters too? If the 100 XLM min balance is increased can it help with a more stable ecosystem?
7) Doesn't the inflationary system of Stellar network distinguish it from the other +2000 deflationary sh!tcoins? Will not the people that adhere because of those same characteristics start seeking other inflationary digital currencies that don't want to act like Gold?
8) Will not inflation help Stellar Lumens when/if circulated supply isn't enough for the demand?
9) Most importantly: if SDF stops claiming inflation from the uncirculated supply will people accept and prefer to keep inflation?
Some of the answers are not easy, as I say there's always pros and cons. What is important is the ideology and if the pros outpace the cons. To me, inflation means the incentive to buy more, hold more, probably spend some which will help in supply/demand. Inflation does not devalue the holder's supply because you don't start with an X value and lose that value when inflation is distributed. It's nothing compared with many of the multi-million transactions being done in the network. It's not complicated, it's actually pretty simple - what's complicating it is other parallel factors.If you remove it, some people will be satisfied but other people will not. We all got into Stellar knowingly and some shouldn't be penalized because of others. Will there be an adverse reaction/response if you change one of the Stellar's fundamentals? Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm not, but I'm sure most of us didn't adhere to a deflationary coin.
I think that if the CAP team wants to remove it, there's nothing we can do but since I never commented in an inflation discussion, I did my part here and I rest my case.
Have a nice Sunday everyone!