[Next Project] Phineas Finn, by Anthony Trollope (Palliser 2/6)

[David]

With the first of the Palliser books out, I'd like now to tackle #2, Phineas Finn.

- Ebook source: https://gutenberg.org/ebooks/18000
- Page scans:  https://archive.org/details/phineasfinnirish00troluoft

It usually appears with a subtitle, "The Irish Member", so I assume we include that.

Like Can You Forgive Her?, this originally appeared in two volumes which I also assume we will want to ignore, as indeed the 1877 edition I've selected for page scans does as well (76 sequentially numbered chapters, no volume division). 

I've got covers for the whole series, but most difficult BY FAR were the two "Phineas" novels — this has a sequel as #4 in the series, Phineas Redux. Along with #5, The Prime Minister, these are the most overtly "political" books of the series. I've got a good cover (I think!) for The PM, but I'm thinking a selection of a couple of Monet's "Houses of Parliament" series would make decent covers for the "Phineas" books (both of which revolve around his fortunes as a member of parliament):

Phineas Finn = The Houses of Parliament at Sunset (CC0 - National Gallery)

Phineas Redux = The Houses of Parliament (CC0 - Art Institute of Chicago)

If the consensus is that these are suboptimal choices, I'll see what I can find ... but I've already invested about 8+ hours on the "Phineas" covers alone! I had a few decent alternatives but utterly failed to find PD proofs for them. (A number of "London" artists were not sufficiently prominent, it seems, to have had their paintings depicted in print pre-1926. Hey ho.)

How does this look to be getting on with?

David / Fife, UK

[Alex Cabal]

A painting in that series was used for The Secret Agent by Joseph
Conrad. They all look so similar that we should avoid using the rest of
those paintings.

Vince, can you manage this with David reviewing?

On 10/31/22 5:38 AM, David wrote:
> With the first of the Palliser books out, I'd like now to tackle #2,

> /Phineas Finn/.

>
> - Ebook source: https://gutenberg.org/ebooks/18000
> - Page scans:  https://archive.org/details/phineasfinnirish00troluoft
>
> It usually appears with a subtitle, "The Irish Member", so I assume we
> include that.
>

> Like /Can You Forgive Her?/, this originally appeared in two volumes

> which I also assume we will want to ignore, as indeed the 1877 edition
> I've selected for page scans does as well (76 sequentially numbered
> chapters, no volume division).
>
> I've got covers for the whole series, but most difficult BY FAR were the

> two "Phineas" novels — this has a sequel as #4 in the series, /Phineas
> Redux/. Along with #5, /The Prime Minister/, these are the most overtly

> "political" books of the series. I've got a good cover (I think!) for

> /The PM/, but I'm thinking a selection of a couple of Monet's "Houses of
> Parliament" series
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houses_of_Parliament_(Monet_series)>

> would make decent covers for the "Phineas" books (both of which revolve
> around his fortunes as a member of parliament):
>

> *Phineas Finn* = The Houses of Parliament at Sunset
> <https://www.nga.gov/collection/art-object-page.46523.html> (CC0 -
> National Gallery)
>
> cover-finn-monet2-360x540.jpg
>
> *Phineas Redux* = The Houses of Parliament
> <https://www.artic.edu/artworks/16584/houses-of-parliament-london> (CC0

> - Art Institute of Chicago)
>

> cover-redux-monet1-360x540.jpg
>
> If the consensus is that these are suboptimal choices, I'll see what I
> can find ... but I've already invested about 8+ hours on the "Phineas"
> covers alone! I had a few decent alternatives but utterly failed to find
> PD proofs for them. (A number of "London" artists were not sufficiently
> prominent, it seems, to have had their paintings depicted in print
> pre-1926. Hey ho.)
>
> How does this look to be getting on with?
>
> David / Fife, UK
>

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[David]

Ah, right. Oh well! They were a bit of a compromise for me, even. Maybe I'll seek some help with some PD-proofing, though I feel like I've searched all the places we might search (IA, Google Books, Hathi...).

"Reflections on the Thames" by John Atkinson Grimshaw would be my first choice if only I could find a "proof"! (I've found the first review of the painting in a 19th C Leeds newspaper, found it listed in exhibitions ... but no picture!)

D.

[Alex Cabal]

Grimshaw has lots of great looking art but I too have been able to find almost no PD proof of his art over the years. As the PD years roll forward that might change but last I checked there was no PD proof for any Grimshaw.

[Vince]

Will do.

[David]

And we're up and running: https://github.com/dajare/anthony-trollope_phineas-finn

(Welcome back, Vince and David [I hope]!)

D.

[David at Standard Ebooks]

Yes Atkinson Grimshaw is infuriating, in that he painted so many terrific, atmospheric works which would be perfect as covers for many of the books I’ve done. But it’s impossible to find them reproduced in print prior in the PD era.

I’m happy to review, by the way.

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[David]

And so the questions begin... :) First off, chapter 75 has the title "P. P. C." I take it this is an abbreviation of "Peregrinatio Pro Christo", used with some irony, I assume, as Phineas is anticipating perpetual "exile" from parliament back in his native Ireland.

Does this require anything more than: <abbr>P. P. C.</abbr>?  With spaces? It does not appear in the text, only in the chapter title.

Thanks! / D.

[Weijia Cheng]

"P.P.C." seems like an initialism to me. Also, if you're sure it's an abbreviation for "peregrinatio pro Christo," maybe give it xml:lang="la" (though that seems less necessary to me).

[Vince Rice]

If that’s what it’s for, it’s an initialism, which means no spaces. This is one of those extremely rare instances where we’re modifying the text (eliminating the spaces), but I don’t mark these as editorial.

On Nov 2, 2022, at 6:03 AM, David <djre...@gmail.com> wrote:

And so the questions begin... :) First off, chapter 75 has the title "P. P. C." I take it this is an abbreviation of "Peregrinatio Pro Christo", used with some irony, I assume, as Phineas is anticipating perpetual "exile" from parliament back in his native Ireland.

Does this require anything more than: <abbr>P. P. C.</abbr>?  With spaces? It does not appear in the text, only in the chapter title.

Thanks! / D.

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[David]

Thanks! Next question. Modernize spelling has changed "&c. &c. &c." to "etc. etc. etc.":

Of course these need to be wrapped in `abbr` (and the last with `eoc` class). But should commas be introduced with the first two ([Editorial])? I'm guessing not, but thought I would ask. Thanks!

D.

[David]

And further question about a couple instances of "z3998:valediction" presentation. I have two letters with valedictions spanning >1 line, in chapter 62:

and chapter 76:

I had thought to style these with <p> <span> <br/>, and adapt the poem/verse i1, i2 indentation levels ... but this can't be right. :)

What would be the correct way of handling these "valedictions"? Thanks!

D.

[David]

And yet another ... :/  In chapter 26 there is a "penny paper" with the name "Ballot-box". Now that I have this with semantics, lint doesn't like the titlecase. Should it be:

1. Ballot-box
2. Ballot-Box
3. Ballot Box

with any adjustment requiring an [Editorial] commit, I assume. 

Thanks once more! D. 

[Vince Rice]

For the etc’s, I would see if we have any in the corpus without comma’s. I’m pretty sure I’ve had two without before, but I don’t think I’ve seen three.

For the valedictions, br’s are ok, but we don’t have to match the formatting; our usual CSS is fine. We have a letter style, and we’re not necessarily trying to match the print formatting exactly (which often varies between editions, anyway).

For an English title that doesn’t match title case, we make it title case. I wouldn’t mess with the dash unless there is a clear reason to do so. 

On Nov 4, 2022, at 10:24 AM, David <djre...@gmail.com> wrote:

And yet another ... :/  In chapter 26 there is a "penny paper" with the name "Ballot-box". Now that I have this with semantics, lint doesn't like the titlecase. Should it be:

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[David]

Thanks for those responses, Vince. I should have thought to check the "etc's" in the corpus already. 

It turns out there's plenty of examples of both comma-ed and uncomma-ed sequences of "etc", and even two examples of a four-fold repetition!

Close to proofing Phineas, now. :)

D.

[David]

Thinking again about a possible cover. Any reactions to this? My reservation is that there's no obviously "Phineas Finn" type character in the assemblage, though this sort of gathering is appropriate to the narrative.

The painting is by Jean Béraud, "La soirée" (before 1880) - a CC0 from Paris Museums. I think I'll keep looking, but this could work (if it passes muster) if I don't find anything more suitable.

D.

[Vince]

It’s PD status is good, and it’s close enough to the period to not matter. If you find something better, great, but if you want to use it, I think it’s fine.

On Nov 4, 2022, at 2:42 PM, David <djre...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thinking again about a possible cover. Any reactions to this? My reservation is that there's no obviously "Phineas Finn" type character in the assemblage, though this sort of gathering is appropriate to the narrative.

[David]

Hope I'm not trying folk's patience with canvassing one more. I think this one could be IT. It's CC0 from the Birmingham Museums Trust (one of the ones in the Manual's "approved" sources), Edwin Edwards, The Thames at Westminster (1878 - given Phineas Finn was published in 1869 isn't too shabby). 

(That's the full height of the painting; it is much, much wider.) I think it's sufficiently different from that Monet series mentioned in the original post in this thread — although we'll need the Editor in Chief's sense of that one! ;) Phineas's career very much centres on his life at Westminster, so this fits beautifully (IMO).

Again, any thoughts on this appreciated. Thanks! 

D.

On Friday, 4 November 2022 at 20:09:31 UTC Vince wrote:

It’s PD status is good, and it’s close enough to the period to not matter. If you find something better, great, but if you want to use it, I think it’s fine.

[David at Standard Ebooks]

It seems slightly tilted. Or is that my eyes?

On 6 Nov 2022 at 4:43 AM +1100, David <djre...@gmail.com>, wrote:

Hope I'm not trying folk's patience with canvassing one more. I think this one could be IT. It's CC0 from the Birmingham Museums Trust (one of the ones in the Manual's "approved" sources), Edwin Edwards, The Thames at Westminster (1878 - given Phineas Finn was published in 1869 isn't too shabby). 

<cover-finn-d-360x540.jpg>

(That's the full height of the painting; it is much, much wider.) I think it's sufficiently different from that Monet series mentioned in the original post in this thread — although we'll need the Editor in Chief's sense of that one! ;) Phineas's career very much centres on his life at Westminster, so this fits beautifully (IMO).

Again, any thoughts on this appreciated. Thanks! 

D.

On Friday, 4 November 2022 at 20:09:31 UTC Vince wrote:

It’s PD status is good, and it’s close enough to the period to not matter. If you find something better, great, but if you want to use it, I think it’s fine.

On Nov 4, 2022, at 2:42 PM, David wrote:

Thinking again about a possible cover. Any reactions to this? My reservation is that there's no obviously "Phineas Finn" type character in the assemblage, though this sort of gathering is appropriate to the narrative.

<cover-finn-b-360x540.jpg>

The painting is by Jean Béraud, "La soirée" (before 1880) - a CC0 from Paris Museums. I think I'll keep looking, but this could work (if it passes muster) if I don't find anything more suitable.

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[David]

Not your eyes, but Edwin Edwards's eyes! And a result of this crop. Unfortunately, can't pull back, since (as noted) this is a very wide painting, and that crop uses its full height. I suppose the crop could move Big Ben away from the edge, which might ameliorate the effect......

D.

On Saturday, 5 November 2022 at 22:00:32 UTC David at Standard Ebooks wrote:

It seems slightly tilted. Or is that my eyes?

 

On 6 Nov 2022 at 4:43 AM +1100, David wrote:

Hope I'm not trying folk's patience with canvassing one more. I think this one could be IT. It's CC0 from the Birmingham Museums Trust (one of the ones in the Manual's "approved" sources), Edwin Edwards, The Thames at Westminster (1878 - given Phineas Finn was published in 1869 isn't too shabby). ...

[David at Standard Ebooks]

Is it out of bounds for us to tilt it straight?

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[Alex Cabal]

I think it looks OK. It's slightly tilted but maybe you're on a boat in
the river. I'd call it artistic license.

On 11/5/22 5:51 PM, David at Standard Ebooks wrote:
> Is it out of bounds for us to tilt it straight?
> On 6 Nov 2022 at 9:08 AM +1100, David <djre...@gmail.com>, wrote:
>> Not your eyes, but Edwin Edwards's eyes! And a result of this crop.
>> Unfortunately, can't pull back, since (as noted) this is a very wide
>> painting, and that crop uses its full height. I suppose the crop could
>> move Big Ben away from the edge, which might ameliorate the effect......
>>
>> D.
>>
>> On Saturday, 5 November 2022 at 22:00:32 UTC David at Standard Ebooks
>> wrote:
>>
>> It seems slightly tilted. Or is that my eyes?
>>
>> On 6 Nov 2022 at 4:43 AM +1100, David wrote:
>>> Hope I'm not trying folk's patience with canvassing one more. I

>>> /think/ this one could be IT. It's CC0 from the Birmingham

>>> Museums Trust (one of the ones in the Manual's "approved"
>>> sources), Edwin Edwards, The Thames at Westminster

>>> <https://dams.birminghammuseums.org.uk/asset-bank/action/viewAsset?id=7326> (1878 - given /Phineas Finn/ was published in 1869 isn't too shabby). ...

>>
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[Vince]

Sorry, been AFK today. Looks good to me, but Alex approved, so you were good to go anyway. :)

On Nov 5, 2022, at 12:43 PM, David <djre...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hope I'm not trying folk's patience with canvassing one more. I think this one could be IT. It's CC0 from the Birmingham Museums Trust (one of the ones in the Manual's "approved" sources), Edwin Edwards, The Thames at Westminster (1878 - given Phineas Finn was published in 1869 isn't too shabby). 

[David]

Can I get a little guidance on a semantics question?

There is a newspaper frequently appearing (30x) in the novel called People's Banner. It is, of course, regularly marked up this way: 

    <i epub:type="se:name.publication.newspaper">People’s Banner</i>

Twice, however, there is reference to "Banner of the People", once in the the `dateline` of a letter, `Banner of the People Office`, and once referring to a reporter `from the office of the “Banner of the People.”`

Should these two instances also get `<i epub:type="se:name.publication.newspaper">...</i>`? If so, I expect the latter would be [Editorial], as it requires also the removal of the quotation marks. In the former, the "dateline" was already set in italics in the page scans, and I assume no [Editorial] intervention would be required at that point.

But I would appreciate confirmation or correction on this. Thanks!

David / Fife, UK

[David at Standard Ebooks]

I would say no, don’t semanticate “Banner of the People” as it seems more like a slogan than the title of the publication itself.

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[Vince]

This is something of a judgment call. We’re pretty free with publication tags when it comes to abbreviations or “shorter” versions, even when those shorter versions don’t necessarily correspond to exact wording. Gibbon, e.g., used three or four different wordings sometimes to describe the same book (none of which were the actual name of the book).

So, if you think that’s referring to the name of the paper, just worded differently, then it should be tagged. But if, as David suggests, it’s the paper's slogan, then it should not be.

Separately, I don’t generally use Editorial for formatting changes, e.g. quotes to italics and vice versa, removing italics, etc. But if you keep your commits small it doesn’t matter, as it can be easily changed (either way) if need be.

[David]

Thank you, both - my inclination was not to italicize/semanticate, but ... as Vince said, a bit of a judgment call.

My plan is to leave as regular type (it seems to me more like a corporation name or, as David says, a slogan). It is, perhaps, telling that in each of the two cases the phrase appears it is in conjunction with their "offices". Now, would the quotation marks be retained or removed in the second case?

Thanks again!  D.

[David at Standard Ebooks]

I'm not sure that I fully understand, but if we're treating Banner of the People as a slogan then yes I think it should retain the quotation marks.

On 15 Nov 2022 at 8:11 PM +1100, David <djre...@gmail.com>, wrote:

Thank you, both - my inclination was not to italicize/semanticate, but ... as Vince said, a bit of a judgment call.

My plan is to leave as regular type (it seems to me more like a corporation name or, as David says, a slogan). It is, perhaps, telling that in each of the two cases the phrase appears it is in conjunction with their "offices". Now, would the quotation marks be retained or removed in the second case?

<__bannop.png>

Thanks again!  D.

On Monday, 14 November 2022 at 16:58:25 UTC Vince wrote:

This is something of a judgment call. We’re pretty free with publication tags when it comes to abbreviations or “shorter” versions, even when those shorter versions don’t necessarily correspond to exact wording. Gibbon, e.g., used three or four different wordings sometimes to describe the same book (none of which were the actual name of the book).

So, if you think that’s referring to the name of the paper, just worded differently, then it should be tagged. But if, as David suggests, it’s the paper's slogan, then it should not be.

Separately, I don’t generally use Editorial for formatting changes, e.g. quotes to italics and vice versa, removing italics, etc. But if you keep your commits small it doesn’t matter, as it can be easily changed (either way) if need be.

On Nov 14, 2022, at 3:54 AM, David <djre...@gmail.com> wrote:

Can I get a little guidance on a semantics question?

There is a newspaper frequently appearing (30x) in the novel called People's Banner. It is, of course, regularly marked up this way: 

    <i epub:type="se:name.publication.newspaper">People’s Banner</i>

Twice, however, there is reference to "Banner of the People", once in the the `dateline` of a letter, `Banner of the People Office`, and once referring to a reporter `from the office of the “Banner of the People.”`

Should these two instances also get `<i epub:type="se:name.publication.newspaper">...</i>`? If so, I expect the latter would be [Editorial], as it requires also the removal of the quotation marks. In the former, the "dateline" was already set in italics in the page scans, and I assume no [Editorial] intervention would be required at that point.

But I would appreciate confirmation or correction on this. Thanks!

David / Fife, UK

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[David]

OK - I've come to the moment of truth! Phineas Finn is ready for review:

https://github.com/dajare/anthony-trollope_phineas-finn

Here's hoping I haven't given David G. too much bother! :) No production notes this time.

D.

[David at Standard Ebooks]

OK, will do. Probably over the coming weekend.

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[David at Standard Ebooks]

Still trying to get to the review, things got in the way. Should be able to tackle it tomorrow.

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[David]

Thanks for the heads-up, David! No rush here. :)

D.

[David at Standard Ebooks]

This all looks very clean to me, just a couple of very minor issues I've logged in the repository.

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[David]

Thanks, David! I'm a bit embarrassed I missed those. Getting better on the whole, I think, though! :)

This is ready for Alex if you're happy with my fixes.

[David at Standard Ebooks]

Looks good, over to you, Alex.

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[Alex Cabal]

OK great, excellent work David, thanks! Very good long description, lots
of pertinent detail.

I've gone ahead and released it!

On 11/25/22 3:49 PM, David at Standard Ebooks wrote:
> Looks good, over to you, Alex.
> On 25 Nov 2022 at 8:44 PM +1100, David <djre...@gmail.com>, wrote:
>> Thanks, David! I'm a bit embarrassed I missed those. Getting better on
>> the whole, I think, though! :)
>>
>> This is ready for Alex if you're happy with my fixes.
>>
>> On Wednesday, 23 November 2022 at 23:13:35 UTC David at Standard
>> Ebooks wrote:
>>
>> This all looks very clean to me, just a couple of very minor
>> issues I've logged in the repository.
>>
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