[Next Project] The City of God by Augustine of Hippo (trans. Marcus Dods)
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Devin O'Bannon
Oct 12, 2025, 3:02:25 PMOct 12
to Standard Ebooks
Hello all,
For my next project, I feel like doing something longer, so I'd like to do The City of God by Augustine of Hippo. (Rather than "Augustine" or "St. Augustine," I'll go with what the placeholder already has.) Also, to make the references easier to understand, I'll be expanding the abbreviated references in the footnotes.
Transcription (vol. 1): https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45304
Transcription (vol. 2): https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45305
Page scans (vol. 1): https://archive.org/details/cityofgodtransla01auguuoft/page/n3/mode/2up
Page scans (vol. 2): https://archive.org/details/cityofgodtransla02auguuoft/page/n5/mode/2up
Thanks,
Devin
Kara Reddy
Oct 12, 2025, 3:44:34 PMOct 12
to standar...@googlegroups.com
godspeed homie
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Alex Cabal
Oct 12, 2025, 7:22:56 PMOct 12
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OK, But I don't think your scans of vol 2 match. They're published by
John Grant and have a different translator. Vol 1 is published by T & T
Clark and apparently has at least 3 translators.
If John Healy translated a different edition, we want to see which
translation is better. Are there any other translations?
There is typically some scholarly consensus on which translation is
better, or at least which ones are bad, for works this old.
On 10/12/25 2:02 PM, Devin O'Bannon wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> For my next project, I feel like doing something longer, so I'd like to
> do /The City of God /by Augustine of Hippo. (Rather than "Augustine" or
> "St. Augustine," I'll go with what the placeholder <https://
> standardebooks.org/ebooks/augustine-of-hippo/the-city-of-god> already
> www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45304>
> Transcription (vol. 2): https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45305 <https://
> www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45305>
> cityofgodtransla01auguuoft/page/n3/mode/2up <https://archive.org/
> details/cityofgodtransla01auguuoft/page/n3/mode/2up>
> details/cityofgodtransla02auguuoft/page/n5/mode/2up>
> d22ee285-4c9b-42fe-9c33-87d5dbf60f45n%40googlegroups.com?
> utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
John Grant and have a different translator. Vol 1 is published by T & T
Clark and apparently has at least 3 translators.
If John Healy translated a different edition, we want to see which
translation is better. Are there any other translations?
There is typically some scholarly consensus on which translation is
better, or at least which ones are bad, for works this old.
On 10/12/25 2:02 PM, Devin O'Bannon wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> For my next project, I feel like doing something longer, so I'd like to
> "St. Augustine," I'll go with what the placeholder <https://
> standardebooks.org/ebooks/augustine-of-hippo/the-city-of-god> already
> has.) Also, to make the references easier to understand, I'll be
> expanding the abbreviated references in the footnotes.
>
> Transcription (vol. 1): https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45304 <https://
> expanding the abbreviated references in the footnotes.
>
> www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45304>
> Transcription (vol. 2): https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45305 <https://
> www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45305>
> cityofgodtransla01auguuoft/page/n3/mode/2up <https://archive.org/
> details/cityofgodtransla01auguuoft/page/n3/mode/2up>
> Page scans (vol. 2): https://archive.org/details/
> cityofgodtransla02auguuoft/page/n5/mode/2up <https://archive.org/
> details/cityofgodtransla02auguuoft/page/n5/mode/2up>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Devin
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.
> Thanks,
>
> Devin
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/
> standardebooks/d22ee285-4c9b-42fe-9c33-87d5dbf60f45n%40googlegroups.com
> d22ee285-4c9b-42fe-9c33-87d5dbf60f45n%40googlegroups.com?
> utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
Devin O'Bannon
Oct 12, 2025, 10:28:46 PMOct 12
to Standard Ebooks
Yikes, I pasted the wrong link! (I had to switch from one scan to another for volume 2 and accidentally clicked the wrong link.) The correct scans for volume two are in the link below.
And yes, you're correct, I misspoke. Marcus Dods was the principal translator, but not the only one.
As far as translations go, there's only two in English that are in the public domain: John Healey (which was done in the 1600s) and the Marcus Dods et al. translation (done in the 1800s). As far as reviews of those translations, I've found this one, which says that he thought Healey's was more accurate on the whole, but that Dods was satisfactory and much easier to read for modern-day readers than Healey's. However, Marcus Dods, in the first volume of the translation I've linked to above, called John Healey's "unaccountably bad." I haven't been able to find any other reviews to "break the tie," as it were. But it seems that the Marcus Dods et al one is fine.
The best translations into English are currently not in the public domain (and were published in the 1970s and later). All the other translation reviews I've been able to find were for non-PD ones.
So if you're okay with this, then I'll move forward.
Transcription (vol. 1): https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45304
Transcription (vol. 2): https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45305
Page scans (vol. 1): https://archive.org/details/cityofgodtransla01auguuoft/page/n3/mode/2up
Alex Cabal
Oct 12, 2025, 10:33:27 PMOct 12
to standar...@googlegroups.com
OK, that sounds fine. Looks like this will be a top tier difficulty book
with almost 1000 print pages and 1400 endnotes. Send a repo link once
you start. Good luck!
On 10/12/25 9:28 PM, Devin O'Bannon wrote:
> Yikes, I pasted the wrong link! (I had to switch from one scan to
> another for volume 2 and accidentally clicked the wrong link.) The
> correct scans for volume two are in the link below.
>
> And yes, you're correct, I misspoke. Marcus Dods was the principal
> translator, but not the only one.
>
> As far as translations go, there's only two in English that are in the
> public domain: John Healey (which was done in the 1600s) and the Marcus
> Dods et al. translation (done in the 1800s). As far as reviews of those
> translations, I've found this one <https://www.jstor.org/
> stable/2854495>, which says that he thought Healey's was more accurate
> mode/2up <https://archive.org/details/TheCityOfGodV2/page/n5/mode/2up>
> > www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45304 <http://www.gutenberg.org/
> ebooks/45305>>
> >
> > Page scans (vol. 1): https://archive.org/details/ <https://
> archive.org/details/>
> > cityofgodtransla01auguuoft/page/n3/mode/2up <https://archive.org/
> <https://archive.org/>
> > details/cityofgodtransla01auguuoft/page/n3/mode/2up>
> > Page scans (vol. 2): https://archive.org/details/ <https://
> archive.org/details/>
> > cityofgodtransla02auguuoft/page/n5/mode/2up <https://archive.org/
> > standardebooks/
> d22ee285-4c9b-42fe-9c33-87d5dbf60f45n%40googlegroups.com
> <http://40googlegroups.com>
> > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/ <https://
> groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/>
> > d22ee285-4c9b-42fe-9c33-87d5dbf60f45n%40googlegroups.com
> <http://40googlegroups.com>?
> > utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/
> standardebooks/35f2c927-4d66-4cc3-90db-275a94335bbcn%40googlegroups.com?
> utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
with almost 1000 print pages and 1400 endnotes. Send a repo link once
you start. Good luck!
On 10/12/25 9:28 PM, Devin O'Bannon wrote:
> Yikes, I pasted the wrong link! (I had to switch from one scan to
> another for volume 2 and accidentally clicked the wrong link.) The
> correct scans for volume two are in the link below.
>
> And yes, you're correct, I misspoke. Marcus Dods was the principal
> translator, but not the only one.
>
> As far as translations go, there's only two in English that are in the
> public domain: John Healey (which was done in the 1600s) and the Marcus
> Dods et al. translation (done in the 1800s). As far as reviews of those
> stable/2854495>, which says that he thought Healey's was more accurate
> on the whole, but that Dods was satisfactory and much easier to read for
> modern-day readers than Healey's. However, Marcus Dods, in the first
> volume of the translation I've linked to above, called John Healey's
> "unaccountably bad." I haven't been able to find any other reviews to
> "break the tie," as it were. But it seems that the Marcus Dods et al one
> is fine.
>
> The best translations into English are currently not in the public
> domain (and were published in the 1970s and later). All the other
> translation reviews I've been able to find were for non-PD ones.
>
> So if you're okay with this, then I'll move forward.
>
> modern-day readers than Healey's. However, Marcus Dods, in the first
> volume of the translation I've linked to above, called John Healey's
> "unaccountably bad." I haven't been able to find any other reviews to
> "break the tie," as it were. But it seems that the Marcus Dods et al one
> is fine.
>
> The best translations into English are currently not in the public
> domain (and were published in the 1970s and later). All the other
> translation reviews I've been able to find were for non-PD ones.
>
> So if you're okay with this, then I'll move forward.
>
> Transcription (vol. 1): https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45304 <https://
> www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45304>
> Transcription (vol. 2): https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45305 <https://
> www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45305>
>
> Page scans (vol. 1): https://archive.org/details/
> cityofgodtransla01auguuoft/page/n3/mode/2up <https://archive.org/
> details/cityofgodtransla01auguuoft/page/n3/mode/2up>
> Page scans (vol. 2): https://archive.org/details/TheCityOfGodV2/page/n5/
> www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45304>
> Transcription (vol. 2): https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45305 <https://
> www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45305>
>
> Page scans (vol. 1): https://archive.org/details/
> cityofgodtransla01auguuoft/page/n3/mode/2up <https://archive.org/
> details/cityofgodtransla01auguuoft/page/n3/mode/2up>
> mode/2up <https://archive.org/details/TheCityOfGodV2/page/n5/mode/2up>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Devin
>
> On Sunday, October 12, 2025 at 6:22:56 PM UTC-5 Alex Cabal wrote:
>
> OK, But I don't think your scans of vol 2 match. They're published by
> John Grant and have a different translator. Vol 1 is published by T & T
> Clark and apparently has at least 3 translators.
>
> If John Healy translated a different edition, we want to see which
> translation is better. Are there any other translations?
>
> There is typically some scholarly consensus on which translation is
> better, or at least which ones are bad, for works this old.
>
>
> On 10/12/25 2:02 PM, Devin O'Bannon wrote:
> > Hello all,
> >
> > For my next project, I feel like doing something longer, so I'd
> like to
> > do /The City of God /by Augustine of Hippo. (Rather than
> "Augustine" or
> > "St. Augustine," I'll go with what the placeholder <https://
> > standardebooks.org/ebooks/augustine-of-hippo/the-city-of-god
> <http://standardebooks.org/ebooks/augustine-of-hippo/the-city-of-
>
> Thanks,
>
> Devin
>
> On Sunday, October 12, 2025 at 6:22:56 PM UTC-5 Alex Cabal wrote:
>
> OK, But I don't think your scans of vol 2 match. They're published by
> John Grant and have a different translator. Vol 1 is published by T & T
> Clark and apparently has at least 3 translators.
>
> If John Healy translated a different edition, we want to see which
> translation is better. Are there any other translations?
>
> There is typically some scholarly consensus on which translation is
> better, or at least which ones are bad, for works this old.
>
>
> On 10/12/25 2:02 PM, Devin O'Bannon wrote:
> > Hello all,
> >
> > For my next project, I feel like doing something longer, so I'd
> like to
> > do /The City of God /by Augustine of Hippo. (Rather than
> "Augustine" or
> > "St. Augustine," I'll go with what the placeholder <https://
> > standardebooks.org/ebooks/augustine-of-hippo/the-city-of-god
> god>> already
> > has.) Also, to make the references easier to understand, I'll be
> > expanding the abbreviated references in the footnotes.
> >
> > Transcription (vol. 1): https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45304
> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45304> <https://
> > has.) Also, to make the references easier to understand, I'll be
> > expanding the abbreviated references in the footnotes.
> >
> > Transcription (vol. 1): https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45304
> > www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45304 <http://www.gutenberg.org/
> ebooks/45304>>
> > Transcription (vol. 2): https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45305
> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45305> <https://
> > www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45305 <http://www.gutenberg.org/
> > Transcription (vol. 2): https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45305
> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45305> <https://
> ebooks/45305>>
> >
> > Page scans (vol. 1): https://archive.org/details/ <https://
> archive.org/details/>
> > cityofgodtransla01auguuoft/page/n3/mode/2up <https://archive.org/
> <https://archive.org/>
> > details/cityofgodtransla01auguuoft/page/n3/mode/2up>
> > Page scans (vol. 2): https://archive.org/details/ <https://
> archive.org/details/>
> > cityofgodtransla02auguuoft/page/n5/mode/2up <https://archive.org/
> <https://archive.org/>
> > details/cityofgodtransla02auguuoft/page/n5/mode/2up>
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Devin
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send
> > an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> > <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.
> > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/>
> > details/cityofgodtransla02auguuoft/page/n5/mode/2up>
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Devin
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send
> > an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com
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> > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/
> > standardebooks/
> d22ee285-4c9b-42fe-9c33-87d5dbf60f45n%40googlegroups.com
> <http://40googlegroups.com>
> > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/ <https://
> groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/>
> > d22ee285-4c9b-42fe-9c33-87d5dbf60f45n%40googlegroups.com
> <http://40googlegroups.com>?
> > utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
>
> --
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> standardebooks/35f2c927-4d66-4cc3-90db-275a94335bbcn%40googlegroups.com?
> utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
Devin O'Bannon
Oct 13, 2025, 9:53:27 AMOct 13
to Standard Ebooks
That's why it sounded like fun!
Repo: https://github.com/Survey0r/augustine-of-hippo_the-city-of-god_marcus-dods_george-wilson_j-j-smith
Since there were only 3 translators, I put all three names in the filename, but if I should replace it with "various translators," let me know.
Thanks,
Devin
Alex Cabal
Oct 13, 2025, 12:34:14 PMOct 13
to standar...@googlegroups.com
OK, Emma will manage this with Lukas reviewing.
On 10/13/25 8:53 AM, Devin O'Bannon wrote:
> That's why it sounded like fun!
>
> Repo: https://github.com/Survey0r/augustine-of-hippo_the-city-of-
> god_marcus-dods_george-wilson_j-j-smith <https://github.com/Survey0r/
> augustine-of-hippo_the-city-of-god_marcus-dods_george-wilson_j-j-smith>
> page/n5/ <https://archive.org/details/TheCityOfGodV2/page/n5/>
> > mode/2up <https://archive.org/details/TheCityOfGodV2/page/n5/
> archive.org/details/> <https://
> > archive.org/details/ <http://archive.org/details/>>
> > > cityofgodtransla01auguuoft/page/n3/mode/2up <https://
> archive.org/ <https://archive.org/>
> > archive.org/details/ <http://archive.org/details/>>
> > > cityofgodtransla02auguuoft/page/n5/mode/2up <https://
> archive.org/ <https://archive.org/>
> msgid/>>
> > > standardebooks/
> > d22ee285-4c9b-42fe-9c33-87d5dbf60f45n%40googlegroups.com
> <http://40googlegroups.com>
> > <http://40googlegroups.com <http://40googlegroups.com>>
> > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/ <https://
> groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/> <https://
> > groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/ <http://
> groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/>>
> > > d22ee285-4c9b-42fe-9c33-87d5dbf60f45n%40googlegroups.com
> <http://40googlegroups.com>
> > <http://40googlegroups.com <http://40googlegroups.com>>?
> >
> standardebooks/35f2c927-4d66-4cc3-90db-275a94335bbcn%40googlegroups.com <http://40googlegroups.com>
> > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ <https://groups.google.com/d/
> msgid/>
> >
> standardebooks/35f2c927-4d66-4cc3-90db-275a94335bbcn%40googlegroups.com <http://40googlegroups.com>?
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/
> standardebooks/047815fb-8674-4cfb-8d60-540ddb06300fn%40googlegroups.com?
> utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
On 10/13/25 8:53 AM, Devin O'Bannon wrote:
> That's why it sounded like fun!
>
> Repo: https://github.com/Survey0r/augustine-of-hippo_the-city-of-
> augustine-of-hippo_the-city-of-god_marcus-dods_george-wilson_j-j-smith>
> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45304> <https://
> > www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45304 <http://www.gutenberg.org/
> ebooks/45304>>
> > Transcription (vol. 2): https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45305
> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45305> <https://
> > www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45305 <http://www.gutenberg.org/
> ebooks/45305>>
> >
> > Page scans (vol. 1): https://archive.org/details/ <https://
> archive.org/details/>
> > cityofgodtransla01auguuoft/page/n3/mode/2up <https://archive.org/
> <https://archive.org/>
> > details/cityofgodtransla01auguuoft/page/n3/mode/2up>
> > Page scans (vol. 2): https://archive.org/details/TheCityOfGodV2/
> > www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45304 <http://www.gutenberg.org/
> ebooks/45304>>
> > Transcription (vol. 2): https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45305
> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45305> <https://
> > www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45305 <http://www.gutenberg.org/
> ebooks/45305>>
> >
> > Page scans (vol. 1): https://archive.org/details/ <https://
> archive.org/details/>
> > cityofgodtransla01auguuoft/page/n3/mode/2up <https://archive.org/
> <https://archive.org/>
> > details/cityofgodtransla01auguuoft/page/n3/mode/2up>
> page/n5/ <https://archive.org/details/TheCityOfGodV2/page/n5/>
> > mode/2up <https://archive.org/details/TheCityOfGodV2/page/n5/
> mode/2up <https://archive.org/details/TheCityOfGodV2/page/n5/mode/2up>>
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Devin
> >
> > On Sunday, October 12, 2025 at 6:22:56 PM UTC-5 Alex Cabal wrote:
> >
> > OK, But I don't think your scans of vol 2 match. They're
> published by
> > John Grant and have a different translator. Vol 1 is published by
> T & T
> > Clark and apparently has at least 3 translators.
> >
> > If John Healy translated a different edition, we want to see which
> > translation is better. Are there any other translations?
> >
> > There is typically some scholarly consensus on which translation is
> > better, or at least which ones are bad, for works this old.
> >
> >
> > On 10/12/25 2:02 PM, Devin O'Bannon wrote:
> > > Hello all,
> > >
> > > For my next project, I feel like doing something longer, so I'd
> > like to
> > > do /The City of God /by Augustine of Hippo. (Rather than
> > "Augustine" or
> > > "St. Augustine," I'll go with what the placeholder <https://
> > > standardebooks.org/ebooks/augustine-of-hippo/the-city-of-god
> <http://standardebooks.org/ebooks/augustine-of-hippo/the-city-of-god>
> > <http://standardebooks.org/ebooks/augustine-of-hippo/the-city-of-
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Devin
> >
> > On Sunday, October 12, 2025 at 6:22:56 PM UTC-5 Alex Cabal wrote:
> >
> > OK, But I don't think your scans of vol 2 match. They're
> published by
> > John Grant and have a different translator. Vol 1 is published by
> T & T
> > Clark and apparently has at least 3 translators.
> >
> > If John Healy translated a different edition, we want to see which
> > translation is better. Are there any other translations?
> >
> > There is typically some scholarly consensus on which translation is
> > better, or at least which ones are bad, for works this old.
> >
> >
> > On 10/12/25 2:02 PM, Devin O'Bannon wrote:
> > > Hello all,
> > >
> > > For my next project, I feel like doing something longer, so I'd
> > like to
> > > do /The City of God /by Augustine of Hippo. (Rather than
> > "Augustine" or
> > > "St. Augustine," I'll go with what the placeholder <https://
> > > standardebooks.org/ebooks/augustine-of-hippo/the-city-of-god
> <http://standardebooks.org/ebooks/augustine-of-hippo/the-city-of-god>
> <http://standardebooks.org/ebooks/augustine-of-hippo/the-city-of->
> > god>> already
> > > has.) Also, to make the references easier to understand, I'll be
> > > expanding the abbreviated references in the footnotes.
> > >
> > > Transcription (vol. 1): https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45304
> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45304>
> > <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45304 <https://
> > god>> already
> > > has.) Also, to make the references easier to understand, I'll be
> > > expanding the abbreviated references in the footnotes.
> > >
> > > Transcription (vol. 1): https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45304
> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45304>
> www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45304>> <https://
> > > www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45304 <http://www.gutenberg.org/
> ebooks/45304> <http://www.gutenberg.org/ <http://www.gutenberg.org/>
> > > www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45304 <http://www.gutenberg.org/
> > ebooks/45304>>
> > > Transcription (vol. 2): https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45305
> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45305>
> > <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45305 <https://
> > > Transcription (vol. 2): https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45305
> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45305>
> www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45305>> <https://
> > > www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45305 <http://www.gutenberg.org/
> ebooks/45305> <http://www.gutenberg.org/ <http://www.gutenberg.org/>
> > > www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45305 <http://www.gutenberg.org/
> archive.org/details/> <https://
> > archive.org/details/ <http://archive.org/details/>>
> > > cityofgodtransla01auguuoft/page/n3/mode/2up <https://
> archive.org/ <https://archive.org/>
> > <https://archive.org/ <https://archive.org/>>
> > > details/cityofgodtransla01auguuoft/page/n3/mode/2up>
> > > Page scans (vol. 2): https://archive.org/details/ <https://
> archive.org/details/> <https://
> > > details/cityofgodtransla01auguuoft/page/n3/mode/2up>
> > > Page scans (vol. 2): https://archive.org/details/ <https://
> > archive.org/details/ <http://archive.org/details/>>
> > > cityofgodtransla02auguuoft/page/n5/mode/2up <https://
> archive.org/ <https://archive.org/>
> > <https://archive.org/ <https://archive.org/>>
> > > details/cityofgodtransla02auguuoft/page/n5/mode/2up>
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Devin
> > >
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > > Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> > send
> > > an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> > > <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.
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> msgid/ <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/>
> > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ <https://groups.google.com/d/
> > > details/cityofgodtransla02auguuoft/page/n5/mode/2up>
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Devin
> > >
> > > --
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> msgid/ <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/>
> msgid/>>
> > > standardebooks/
> > d22ee285-4c9b-42fe-9c33-87d5dbf60f45n%40googlegroups.com
> <http://40googlegroups.com>
> > <http://40googlegroups.com <http://40googlegroups.com>>
> > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/ <https://
> groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/> <https://
> > groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/ <http://
> groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/>>
> > > d22ee285-4c9b-42fe-9c33-87d5dbf60f45n%40googlegroups.com
> <http://40googlegroups.com>
> > <http://40googlegroups.com <http://40googlegroups.com>>?
> > > utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
> >
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Message has been deleted
Devin O'Bannon
Oct 14, 2025, 1:54:57 PMOct 14
to Standard Ebooks
Hello Emma,
While I'm working on moving the 20 gajillion footnotes to endnotes, here is my cover proposal, from The Met: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/436282
Thanks,
Devin
Devin O'Bannon
Oct 14, 2025, 8:30:21 PMOct 14
to Standard Ebooks
Hello Emma,
One issue I'm running into is bridgehead titles. There are a lot of bridgeheads in this book, but they're generally quite straightforward to code. However, I'm unsure how to program the bridgeheads for the books, since they are titled with "Argument," as seen below. My preference is to do an editorial commit and just delete the word "Argument" from each book's bridgehead, as the text below them clearly indicate that they are bridgeheads for the book. (Which would also make it easier to program.) However, if I should keep in the word "Argument," I'm unsure how to program the book heading with its bridgehead, in that case.
Thanks,
Devin
Emma Sweeney
Oct 14, 2025, 9:37:20 PMOct 14
to Standard Ebooks
1. The cover looks good! I've added it to the art db.
2. Delete the "Argument" titles and use bridgehead formatting.
Emma
Devin O'Bannon
Oct 31, 2025, 9:59:42 PM (6 days ago) Oct 31
to Standard Ebooks
Another question. In the endnotes, sometimes the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament) is abbreviated to "LXX" (the Roman numeral for 70, after the 70 translators that made it), which is a common abbreviation for the Septuagint. This is an abbreviation and a Roman numeral, so I'll add semantics for those, but this is also the name of a Bible translation. Does it also have semantics indicating that it's a name, such as 'se:name.publication', or something along those lines?
Thanks,
Devin
Emma Sweeney
Oct 31, 2025, 10:18:47 PM (6 days ago) Oct 31
to Standard Ebooks
1. LXX would only have roman numeral semantics.
2. You don't need to have text semantics since Septuagint/LXX wouldn't be italicized.
Emma
Devin O'Bannon
Oct 31, 2025, 10:27:22 PM (6 days ago) Oct 31
to Standard Ebooks
OK thanks. I asked because sometimes we still use text semantics for things that aren't italicised (using <span> elements).
Thanks,
Devin
David
Nov 1, 2025, 1:23:06 PM (6 days ago) Nov 1
to Standard Ebooks
I wonder if it's worth thinking about this "LXX" issue a little more, even if the original decision is confirmed.
I take Devin's point: in context, "LXX" is not the roman numeral for "70": it is the abbreviation of "Septuagint" (to link just one of a myriad of possible authoritative sources):
My thought is that if we use the semantic `epub:type="z3998:roman"`, it is not conveying the correct semantics for "LXX" = "Septuagint(a)". I think the closest we get for this case is SEMoS §8.10.7: "Abbreviations that are abbreviations of a single word, and that are not acronyms or initialisms (like Mr., Mrs., or lbs.) are set with <abbr>."
Responses welcome!
David / Fife, UK
On Saturday, 1 November 2025 at 02:27:22 UTC Devin wrote:
OK thanks. I asked because sometimes we still use text semantics for things that aren't italicised (using <span> elements).Thanks,Devin
On Friday, October 31, 2025 at 9:18:47 PM UTC-5 Emma Sweeney wrote:
1. LXX would only have roman numeral semantics.2. You don't need to have text semantics since Septuagint/LXX wouldn't be italicized.Emma
Vince
Nov 1, 2025, 1:44:16 PM (6 days ago) Nov 1
to Standard Ebooks
I had this discussion with Gibbon, and I did not tag it as a roman numeral, for that reason. It is an abbreviation, not the number 70. Of course, I didn’t tag it as an abbreviation, either, so that’s probably wrong…
On Nov 1, 2025, at 12:23 PM, David <djre...@gmail.com> wrote:
I wonder if it's worth thinking about this "LXX" issue a little more, even if the original decision is confirmed.I take Devin's point: in context, "LXX" is not the roman numeral for "70": it is the abbreviation of "Septuagint" (to link just one of a myriad of possible authoritative sources):
Weijia Cheng
Nov 1, 2025, 1:46:28 PM (6 days ago) Nov 1
to Standard Ebooks
Something else worth noting is that in principle, the semantics indicate how screen readers should pronounce the text. Having only z3998:roman might imply that LXX should be read "seventy" which would be incorrect in context. Could we maybe split the difference somehow? <abbr epub:type="z3998:roman se:name.publication.book">?
Vince
Nov 1, 2025, 2:03:03 PM (6 days ago) Nov 1
to Standard Ebooks
We don’t tag Bibles, so the “book” tag wouldn’t be right, would it?
Weijia Cheng
Nov 1, 2025, 2:22:48 PM (6 days ago) Nov 1
to Standard Ebooks
Well, we don't italicize Bibles, but that doesn't mean that "Bible" or "Septuagint" isn't the name of a book, right?
Vince
Nov 1, 2025, 2:49:49 PM (6 days ago) Nov 1
to Standard Ebooks
If we tag them at all, that’s news to me. I’ve never done it.
Weijia Cheng
Nov 1, 2025, 2:58:41 PM (6 days ago) Nov 1
to Standard Ebooks
I agree, we don't tag them usually and we shouldn't. But in this case, if we are tagging LXX with the "abbr" tag anyways, wouldn't adding "se:name.publication.book" clarify what LXX is supposed to be an abbreviation for?
But probably I am just getting too fancy and there is some better solution :)
Vince
Nov 1, 2025, 3:26:53 PM (6 days ago) Nov 1
to Standard Ebooks
Well, to me, if we don’t tag Bibles, we don’t tag Bibles. And we have all kinds of untagged abbreviations. (Although lint will complain about this one, so it would require an ignore entry.)
But I’m probably being too simplistic. :)
David
Nov 1, 2025, 3:35:58 PM (6 days ago) Nov 1
to Standard Ebooks
This may well be my stupidest idea ever (there are plenty to choose from) but what about:
<abbr aria-label="Seputagint">LXX</abbr>
If "the semantics indicate how screen readers should pronounce the text" (quoting Weijia, above), then this might be the sensible (ha!) solution. A the moment in the SE corpus, I think this is restricted to use in SVGs.
According to MDN, "The aria-label attribute can be used with regular, semantic HTML elements; it is not limited to elements that have an ARIA role assigned." Now, maybe this is still supposed to be restricted to labelling elements in the DOM, but ... well I did say it was probably a stupid idea....
On Saturday, 1 November 2025 at 19:26:53 UTC Vince wrote:
Well, to me, if we don’t tag Bibles, we don’t tag Bibles. And we have all kinds of untagged abbreviations. (Although lint will complain about this one, so it would require an ignore entry.)But I’m probably being too simplistic. :)
Vince
Nov 1, 2025, 3:51:17 PM (6 days ago) Nov 1
to Standard Ebooks
We don’t have any other abbreviation “say” what the abbreviation stands for (IBM is just IBM, not International Business Machines), so I don’t see why we would here. It’s just an abbreviation, like any other abbreviation. The fact it’s made up of roman numerals is (to me) immaterial. It’s LXX, it’s tagged as an abbreviation, it gets read as el eks eks, which is (again, to me) all that’s needed.
Alex Cabal
Nov 1, 2025, 4:50:50 PM (6 days ago) Nov 1
to standar...@googlegroups.com
I agree, it's not a roman numeral, it's an abbreviation, but an unusual
one.
I'm not against adding the @aria-label attribute David suggests. Unlike
IBM, whose pronunciation is hinted by the `initialism` semantic, LXX is
not pronounced in a typical way - prior knowledge is needed - so the
label hint would be useful. Off the top of my head I can't think of any
other common abbreviation that is similar, i.e. pronunciation cannot be
inferred by spelling or z3998 semantics.
On 11/1/25 2:51 PM, Vince wrote:
> We don’t have any other abbreviation “say” what the abbreviation stands
> for (IBM is just IBM, not International Business Machines), so I don’t
> see why we would here. It’s just an abbreviation, like any other
> abbreviation. The fact it’s made up of roman numerals is (to me)
> immaterial. It’s LXX, it’s tagged as an abbreviation, it gets read as el
> eks eks, which is (again, to me) all that’s needed.
>
>
>> On Nov 1, 2025, at 2:35 PM, David <djre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> This may well be my stupidest idea ever (there are plenty to choose
>> from) but what about:
>>
>> <abbr aria-label="Seputagint">LXX</abbr>
>>
>> If "the semantics indicate how screen readers should pronounce the
>> text" (quoting Weijia, above), then this might be the sensible (ha!)
>> solution. A the moment in the SE corpus, I think this is restricted to
>> use in SVGs.
>>
>> According to MDN <https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/
>> Accessibility/ARIA/Reference/Attributes/aria-label>, "The aria-label
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/
> standardebooks/72FECFB2-0A28-49AB-99DB-5D7792566662%40letterboxes.org?
> utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
one.
I'm not against adding the @aria-label attribute David suggests. Unlike
IBM, whose pronunciation is hinted by the `initialism` semantic, LXX is
not pronounced in a typical way - prior knowledge is needed - so the
label hint would be useful. Off the top of my head I can't think of any
other common abbreviation that is similar, i.e. pronunciation cannot be
inferred by spelling or z3998 semantics.
On 11/1/25 2:51 PM, Vince wrote:
> We don’t have any other abbreviation “say” what the abbreviation stands
> for (IBM is just IBM, not International Business Machines), so I don’t
> see why we would here. It’s just an abbreviation, like any other
> abbreviation. The fact it’s made up of roman numerals is (to me)
> immaterial. It’s LXX, it’s tagged as an abbreviation, it gets read as el
> eks eks, which is (again, to me) all that’s needed.
>
>
>> On Nov 1, 2025, at 2:35 PM, David <djre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> This may well be my stupidest idea ever (there are plenty to choose
>> from) but what about:
>>
>> <abbr aria-label="Seputagint">LXX</abbr>
>>
>> If "the semantics indicate how screen readers should pronounce the
>> text" (quoting Weijia, above), then this might be the sensible (ha!)
>> solution. A the moment in the SE corpus, I think this is restricted to
>> use in SVGs.
>>
>> Accessibility/ARIA/Reference/Attributes/aria-label>, "The aria-label
>> attribute can be used with regular, semantic HTML elements; it is not
>> limited to elements that have an ARIA role assigned." Now, maybe this
>> is still supposed to be restricted to labelling elements in the DOM,
>> but ... well I did say it was probably a stupid idea....
>
>> limited to elements that have an ARIA role assigned." Now, maybe this
>> is still supposed to be restricted to labelling elements in the DOM,
>> but ... well I did say it was probably a stupid idea....
>
> --
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Adam Stone
Nov 1, 2025, 4:59:25 PM (6 days ago) Nov 1
to Standard Ebooks
Just to add to David Reimer's suggestion, an additional or alternative option to the "aria-label" attribute is the "title" attribute, which is specifically intended to provide an expansion of an abbreviation. It's documented here on the MDN Web Docs. So the markup could be something like:
<abbr title="Septuagint">LXX</abbr>
Adam Stone
Nov 1, 2025, 5:04:32 PM (6 days ago) Nov 1
to Standard Ebooks
Also, off the top of my head, I cannot think of any other cases quite like this "LXX" abbreviation, but "lb." and "lbs." are somewhat similar in that their spelling, which is the based on the Latin word for a pound (libra), is not indicative of the conventional English pronunciation.
Vince
Nov 1, 2025, 5:17:36 PM (6 days ago) Nov 1
to Standard Ebooks
It’s not really (unusual). Prior knowledge isn’t required to know how it’s pronounced—each letter is pronounced, just like an initialism (which is why it’s like IBM), the letters just don’t stand for anything individually (which is why it’s not, but it doesn’t have anything to do with pronunciation.)
Prior knowledge is required for what it stands for, but that is also true of countless other initialisms in the corpus. I have to web search an abbreviation fairly regularly, especially some of the abbreviations in the 1800’s that are no longer in use or are unique to other countries.
Lukas Bystricky
Nov 2, 2025, 4:19:41 AM (5 days ago) Nov 2
to Standard Ebooks
Lots of good points here, so apologies for adding one more, but we do occasionally expand abbreviations. Could this be a solution? If I were reading it I would have no idea what LXX means (not that I would know what Septuagint is, but at least I could rather easily look that up, looking up LXX would be more challenging). Of course the target audience for this book would be more knowledgeable on these things than me; perhaps LXX is "industry standard."
Vince Rice
Nov 2, 2025, 8:04:19 AM (5 days ago) Nov 2
to standar...@googlegroups.com
Searching for LXX isn’t challenging at all, try it.
> On Nov 2, 2025, at 3:19 AM, Lukas Bystricky <lukasby...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Lots of good points here, so apologies for adding one more, but we do occasionally expand abbreviations. Could this be a solution? If I were reading it I would have no idea what LXX means (not that I would know what Septuagint is, but at least I could rather easily look that up, looking up LXX would be more challenging). Of course the target audience for this book would be more knowledgeable on these things than me; perhaps LXX is "industry standard."
> On Nov 2, 2025, at 3:19 AM, Lukas Bystricky <lukasby...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Lots of good points here, so apologies for adding one more, but we do occasionally expand abbreviations. Could this be a solution? If I were reading it I would have no idea what LXX means (not that I would know what Septuagint is, but at least I could rather easily look that up, looking up LXX would be more challenging). Of course the target audience for this book would be more knowledgeable on these things than me; perhaps LXX is "industry standard."
Lukas Bystricky
Nov 2, 2025, 9:54:37 AM (5 days ago) Nov 2
to Standard Ebooks
Wow, you're quite right. I wasn't expecting that to be first hit. Should have checked first...
Anyways, I meant more just to note the option to expand the abbreviation. That would solve the semantics issue at least, but maybe that's not reason enough by itself.
Devin O'Bannon
Nov 2, 2025, 9:56:45 AM (5 days ago) Nov 2
to Standard Ebooks
Hello all,
I guess I opened up an odd can of worms? : )
Something that is standard in most scholarly books with lots of footnotes like this one is a list of abbreviations, where the abbreviations of various works are spelled out, so the reader knows exactly what the abbreviated reference is in the footnotes that follow. (Modern versions of The City of God, such as Henry Bettenson's translation for Penguin Classics, also do this.) Unfortunately, however, this book does not have that list, meaning that each reference can be quite opaque to the reader, unless they have extensive prior knowledge of the sources referred to. On top of that (which is more maddening), they don't always use the same abbreviations to refer to the same source--I've seen at least three different ways Sallust's book De coniuratione Catilinae has been abbreviated (and sometimes they use variant titles of the same book!). (And in an ebook, this list of abbreviations would be useless anyway--flipping back and forth between pages in an ebook is unwieldy and annoying!).
As per my initial post, I've been expanding the abbreviations of sources in the footnotes, so that readers can know what book it's referring to, as well as standardizing the references to the same book, so that it's clearer. It makes it easier to look it up if they don't know what the source is. (Of course, I have been, and will continue, to triple-check the references to make sure they're correct. Which sometimes they haven't been--one time a footnote said "Ecclesiastes" when Augustine was quoting from Ecclesiasticus, and another time Augustine quoted from Horace's Odes and the annotator accidentally put the reference as the Carmen Secularae.) I'll also be standardizing other abbreviations as well--sometimes they abbreviate the word "chapter" as "ch.", other times as "c.", and I'd rather have all those be consistent, for clarity's sake.
As such, I think it might be best to expand the abbreviation of LXX to "Septuagint" (as per Lukas's suggestion), as I think that will make it clearer to readers from a variety of backgrounds. (However, it'd still be good to find some sort of standard as to how to correctly add semantics to "LXX," for future productions.)
Thanks,
Devin
Alex Cabal
Nov 2, 2025, 7:02:24 PM (4 days ago) Nov 2
to standar...@googlegroups.com
I think expanding it is a good idea, yes.
On 11/2/25 8:56 AM, Devin O'Bannon wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I guess I opened up an odd can of worms? : )
>
> Something that is standard in most scholarly books with lots of
> footnotes like this one is a list of abbreviations, where the
> abbreviations of various works are spelled out, so the reader knows
> exactly what the abbreviated reference is in the footnotes that follow.
> (Modern versions of /The City of God/, such as Henry Bettenson's
> coniuratione Catilinae /has been abbreviated (and sometimes they use
> the /Carmen Secularae/.) I'll also be standardizing other abbreviations
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/
> a6a9dccf-41b5-4a88-8003-0442da11fd84n%40googlegroups.com?
> utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
On 11/2/25 8:56 AM, Devin O'Bannon wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I guess I opened up an odd can of worms? : )
>
> Something that is standard in most scholarly books with lots of
> footnotes like this one is a list of abbreviations, where the
> abbreviations of various works are spelled out, so the reader knows
> exactly what the abbreviated reference is in the footnotes that follow.
> translation for Penguin Classics, also do this.) Unfortunately, however,
> this book does not have that list, meaning that each reference can be
> quite opaque to the reader, unless they have extensive prior knowledge
> of the sources referred to. On top of that (which is more maddening),
> they don't always use the same abbreviations to refer to the same
> source--I've seen at least three different ways Sallust's book /De
> this book does not have that list, meaning that each reference can be
> quite opaque to the reader, unless they have extensive prior knowledge
> of the sources referred to. On top of that (which is more maddening),
> they don't always use the same abbreviations to refer to the same
> coniuratione Catilinae /has been abbreviated (and sometimes they use
> variant titles of the same book!). (And in an ebook, this list of
> abbreviations would be useless anyway--flipping back and forth between
> pages in an ebook is unwieldy and annoying!).
>
> As per my initial post, I've been expanding the abbreviations of sources
> in the footnotes, so that readers can know what book it's referring to,
> as well as standardizing the references to the same book, so that it's
> clearer. It makes it easier to look it up if they don't know what the
> source is. (Of course, I have been, and will continue, to triple-check
> the references to make sure they're correct. Which sometimes they
> haven't been--one time a footnote said "Ecclesiastes" when Augustine was
> quoting from Ecclesiasticus, and another time Augustine quoted from
> Horace's /Odes/ and the annotator accidentally put the reference as
> abbreviations would be useless anyway--flipping back and forth between
> pages in an ebook is unwieldy and annoying!).
>
> As per my initial post, I've been expanding the abbreviations of sources
> in the footnotes, so that readers can know what book it's referring to,
> as well as standardizing the references to the same book, so that it's
> clearer. It makes it easier to look it up if they don't know what the
> source is. (Of course, I have been, and will continue, to triple-check
> the references to make sure they're correct. Which sometimes they
> haven't been--one time a footnote said "Ecclesiastes" when Augustine was
> quoting from Ecclesiasticus, and another time Augustine quoted from
> the /Carmen Secularae/.) I'll also be standardizing other abbreviations
> as well--sometimes they abbreviate the word "chapter" as "ch.", other
> times as "c.", and I'd rather have all those be consistent, for
> clarity's sake.
>
> As such, I think it might be best to expand the abbreviation of LXX to
> "Septuagint" (as per Lukas's suggestion), as I think that will make it
> clearer to readers from a variety of backgrounds. (However, it'd still
> be good to find some sort of standard as to how to correctly add
> semantics to "LXX," for future productions.)
>
> Thanks,
>
> Devin
>
>
>
> On Sunday, November 2, 2025 at 7:04:19 AM UTC-6 Vince Rice wrote:
>
> Searching for LXX isn’t challenging at all, try it.
>
> > On Nov 2, 2025, at 3:19 AM, Lukas Bystricky
> <lukasby...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Lots of good points here, so apologies for adding one more, but
> we do occasionally expand abbreviations. Could this be a solution?
> If I were reading it I would have no idea what LXX means (not that I
> would know what Septuagint is, but at least I could rather easily
> look that up, looking up LXX would be more challenging). Of course
> the target audience for this book would be more knowledgeable on
> these things than me; perhaps LXX is "industry standard."
>
> times as "c.", and I'd rather have all those be consistent, for
> clarity's sake.
>
> As such, I think it might be best to expand the abbreviation of LXX to
> "Septuagint" (as per Lukas's suggestion), as I think that will make it
> clearer to readers from a variety of backgrounds. (However, it'd still
> be good to find some sort of standard as to how to correctly add
> semantics to "LXX," for future productions.)
>
> Thanks,
>
> Devin
>
>
>
> On Sunday, November 2, 2025 at 7:04:19 AM UTC-6 Vince Rice wrote:
>
> Searching for LXX isn’t challenging at all, try it.
>
> > On Nov 2, 2025, at 3:19 AM, Lukas Bystricky
> <lukasby...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Lots of good points here, so apologies for adding one more, but
> we do occasionally expand abbreviations. Could this be a solution?
> If I were reading it I would have no idea what LXX means (not that I
> would know what Septuagint is, but at least I could rather easily
> look that up, looking up LXX would be more challenging). Of course
> the target audience for this book would be more knowledgeable on
> these things than me; perhaps LXX is "industry standard."
>
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