Pensées by Blaise Pascal

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Matt Chan

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Jul 26, 2022, 9:23:27 PM7/26/22
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This work is on Gutenberg and Hathitrust, but the publication date seems late for it to be PD (1958), anyone know what gives?

Vince

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Jul 26, 2022, 9:36:19 PM7/26/22
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Works prior to 1964 fall out of copyright if it wasn’t renewed; that’s how we have so much science-fiction from the fifties.

Matt Chan

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Jul 26, 2022, 9:38:42 PM7/26/22
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Thanks Vince. This is excellent news; I'd like to work on this next while I slowly dig away (again) on Confucius?

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Alex Cabal

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Jul 27, 2022, 12:28:48 PM7/27/22
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Robin, can you manage this with David reviewing?

On 7/26/22 8:38 PM, Matt Chan wrote:
> Thanks Vince. This is excellent news; I'd like to work on this next
> while I slowly dig away (again) on Confucius?
>
> On Tue, Jul 26, 2022 at 9:36 PM Vince <vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>> wrote:
>
> Works prior to 1964 fall out of copyright if it wasn’t renewed;
> that’s how we have so much science-fiction from the fifties.
>
>
>> On Jul 26, 2022, at 8:23 PM, Matt Chan <thew...@gmail.com
>> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> This work is on Gutenberg and Hathitrust, but the publication date
>> seems late for it to be PD (1958), anyone know what gives?
>>
>> https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/18269
>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/18269>
>> https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/001799618
>> <https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/001799618>
>
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Robin Whittleton

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Jul 27, 2022, 12:44:09 PM7/27/22
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Yep.

> On 27 Jul 2022, at 18:29, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org> wrote:
>
> Robin, can you manage this with David reviewing?
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Matt Chan

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Jul 27, 2022, 12:50:52 PM7/27/22
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Thanks Alex, Robin, and David. I will get it going!

David Grigg

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Jul 27, 2022, 6:53:58 PM7/27/22
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Matt Chan

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Jul 29, 2022, 7:05:25 PM7/29/22
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What do you all think is the best way to typeset this? MathML?

image.png


Matt Chan

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Jul 29, 2022, 7:10:08 PM7/29/22
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And this:

image.png
Should this be a diagram via SVG?

Robin Whittleton

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Jul 30, 2022, 6:20:31 AM7/30/22
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For the first, there’s no particularly good way of doing it. I’ve in the past hacked together some CSS to do this for Tristram Shandy, so you could reuse that if you want? Example: https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/laurence-sterne/the-life-and-opinions-of-tristram-shandy-gentleman/text/chapter-7-31

For the second, definitely an SVG. Set the text as actual text nodes (with no font reference beyond serif) and the lines as lines. You can find a similar example in Pepys Diaryhttps://standardebooks.org/ebooks/samuel-pepys/the-diary/images/illustration-1.svg

-Robin

On 30 Jul 2022, at 01:09, Matt Chan <thew...@gmail.com> wrote:

And this:

<image.png>
Should this be a diagram via SVG?
On Fri, Jul 29, 2022 at 7:05 PM Matt Chan <thew...@gmail.com> wrote:
What do you all think is the best way to typeset this? MathML?

<image.png>

Matt Chan

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Jul 30, 2022, 8:17:24 PM7/30/22
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Thanks Robin, that's super helpful! I'll give it a try.

C T

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Aug 2, 2022, 7:04:17 AM8/2/22
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I also did a bracketed list in The Path to Rome, check out the CSS there as well.

On Sat, Jul 30, 2022 at 6:20 AM Robin Whittleton <ro...@reala.net> wrote:

Matt Chan

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Aug 3, 2022, 2:46:31 PM8/3/22
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Another question, the book has an index and the transcription has transcriber's notes, do we keep any of those?
image.png

image.png



Robin Whittleton

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Aug 3, 2022, 2:59:37 PM8/3/22
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Cut them both, neither are something we’d usually keep.

-Robin

On 3 Aug 2022, at 20:46, Matt Chan <thew...@gmail.com> wrote:

Another question, the book has an index and the transcription has transcriber's notes, do we keep any of those?
<image.png>

<image.png>


Matt Chan

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Aug 3, 2022, 3:01:21 PM8/3/22
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Matt Chan

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Aug 3, 2022, 7:29:37 PM8/3/22
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Should there be any special treatment like a no-break space for surnames that are multiple words? Like "Mr.<nbsp>La Forge"?

Matt Chan

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Aug 3, 2022, 9:33:32 PM8/3/22
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If an inline quote is italicized by <i> element, do we keep them? Change it to some other element with semantics? Remove them? Or change to quotes?

E.g.
<p><em>Rivers are</em>, <abbr>etc.</abbr>⁠—Apparently suggested by a chapter in Rabelais: <i>How we descended in the isle of Odes, in which the roads walk</i>. <a href="section-1.xhtml#noteref-12" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>

Matt Chan

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Aug 3, 2022, 10:06:06 PM8/3/22
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In an endnote with a <cite> element, does the chapter/page/etc number fall into the <cite> element or outside? E.g:

<li id="note-20" epub:type="endnote">
    <p><em xml:lang="la">Ambitiosa recidet ornamenta.</em>⁠<cite>—Horace, <i epub:type="se:name.publication.book" xml:lang="la">De Arte Poetica</i>, 447.</cite> <a href="section-1.xhtml#noteref-20" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>
</li>

David Grigg

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Aug 3, 2022, 10:22:41 PM8/3/22
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Outside.

Matt Chan

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Aug 4, 2022, 10:08:56 AM8/4/22
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Thanks David; any ideas about my previous 2 questions?

Alex Cabal

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Aug 4, 2022, 12:55:31 PM8/4/22
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Robin is managing this one, he should get to you shortly

On 8/4/22 9:08 AM, Matt Chan wrote:
> Thanks David; any ideas about my previous 2 questions?
>
> On Wed, Aug 3, 2022 at 10:22 PM David Grigg <david...@gmail.com
> <mailto:david...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Outside.
>
> On Thursday, 4 August 2022 at 12:06:06 UTC+10 thew...@gmail.com
>> for /Tristram Shandy/, so you could
>> reuse that if you want? Example:
>> https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/laurence-sterne/the-life-and-opinions-of-tristram-shandy-gentleman/text/chapter-7-31
>> <https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/laurence-sterne/the-life-and-opinions-of-tristram-shandy-gentleman/text/chapter-7-31>
>>
>> For the second, definitely an SVG. Set
>> the text as actual text nodes (with no
>> font reference beyond serif) and the
>> lines as lines. You can find a similar
>> example in /Pepys Diary/:
>> https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/samuel-pepys/the-diary/images/illustration-1.svg
>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/4574B895-7677-48EB-97B4-D840FA72D12B%40letterboxes.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/4574B895-7677-48EB-97B4-D840FA72D12B%40letterboxes.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.
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Matt Chan

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Aug 4, 2022, 1:01:10 PM8/4/22
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Thanks Alex, no rush to Robin/David, just wanted to make sure I didn't bury my own questions

Robin Whittleton

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Aug 4, 2022, 2:07:23 PM8/4/22
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Typically no, but given that La is so short it might be worth it in this case. How does it look if you do it?.

-Robin

Matt Chan

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Aug 4, 2022, 2:11:19 PM8/4/22
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Hard to tell, I just thought it's kind of strange to keep Mr. La together but not Mr. La Forge, if that's the whole name. I can leave it alone for now.

Robin Whittleton

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Aug 4, 2022, 2:20:14 PM8/4/22
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Is this a chapter title? Either way, removing the italics and adding quote marks seems to be the correct course of action.

-Robin

Matt Chan

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Aug 4, 2022, 2:26:11 PM8/4/22
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Not a chapter title, but yes I can remove the italics and add quotes.

Robin here's a related question, in most of the end notes, it took the passage the endnote is notating and put that in italics. I'm unsure what to do with this, it uses <i>, I can change it to <em> but not sure if it makes semantic sense. I can change those to quotes as well, which makes sense in my head but not sure if that's what's accepted. Here's an example:
Endnote:
image.png
Which is quoting:
image.png

Relatedly, some of the "fragments" in each section (chapters) have "headings" of a sort. In the text they are again set with italics (<i>) followed by em dash.
Here's an example:

image.png
(I've chosen to use PG as the screenshot here since it's clearer than the book scans, rest assure that the book looks the "same")

For now I have changed the <i> to <em>, but again, not sure if that's the correct course of action?

Robin Whittleton

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Aug 4, 2022, 2:29:27 PM8/4/22
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I use a <dfn> element for those: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/text-level-semantics.html#the-dfn-element . You’d need to add a CSS to italicise dfn as well.

On 4 Aug 2022, at 20:25, Matt Chan <thew...@gmail.com> wrote:

Not a chapter title, but yes I can remove the italics and add quotes.

Robin here's a related question, in most of the end notes, it took the passage the endnote is notating and put that in italics. I'm unsure what to do with this, it uses <i>, I can change it to <em> but not sure if it makes semantic sense. I can change those to quotes as well, which makes sense in my head but not sure if that's what's accepted. Here's an example:
Endnote:
<image.png>
Which is quoting:
<image.png>

Relatedly, some of the "fragments" in each section (chapters) have "headings" of a sort. In the text they are again set with italics (<i>) followed by em dash.
Here's an example:

Matt Chan

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Aug 4, 2022, 2:34:16 PM8/4/22
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Got it. I will change the endnote quotes to quotation mark and get rid italics (unless foreign phrase), and use this <dfn> for body headings.

Matt Chan

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Aug 5, 2022, 5:45:17 PM8/5/22
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Double checking: do we do anything to commas and periods inside vs. outside of parentheses? Or leave as they are in transcription/page scans?

Robin Whittleton

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Aug 6, 2022, 3:20:20 AM8/6/22
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Parentheses? Leave them as per the source, we don’t have any rule here that I’m aware of.

On 5 Aug 2022, at 23:45, Matt Chan <thew...@gmail.com> wrote:



Vince Rice

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Aug 6, 2022, 11:13:16 AM8/6/22
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We do, actually. See the first item in the common issues guide, https://standardebooks.org/contribute/how-tos/common-issues-when-working-on-public-domain-ebooks

Matt Chan

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Aug 6, 2022, 11:21:18 AM8/6/22
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Thanks Vince, I might be wrong but I can't find this in the Manual, maybe we should add it? 

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Vince Rice

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Aug 6, 2022, 11:48:09 AM8/6/22
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It's not in the manual, that's why it's in common issues. :) The manual is "this is the way a book should look"; the step-by-step and especially the common issues deal with things we encounter in getting them there. Alex mentioned adding a link to common issues from the step by step; I haven't looked recently, so I don't know if that's happened yet.

On Aug 6, 2022, at 10:21 AM, Matt Chan <thew...@gmail.com> wrote:


Matt Chan

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Aug 6, 2022, 11:55:34 AM8/6/22
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There is a punctuation section in the manual, and a specific entry that mentions whether or not periods/commas should be inside or outside quotes (8.7.2), I feel like there could be an entry in the manual mentioning the same thing about parentheses? I feel like if the "common issue" contains "rules" not mentioned in the menu it might create confusion (as it did for me)?

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Alex Cabal

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Aug 6, 2022, 12:07:36 PM8/6/22
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Punctuation in parenthesis follows the grammar of the subclause so the
rules are complicated and not something that was ever different between
countries or over the years. If you want to do the research and put
together the complete rule set for that case then you can open a PR on
the manual.

On 8/6/22 10:55 AM, Matt Chan wrote:
> There is a punctuation section in the manual, and a specific entry that
> mentions whether or not periods/commas should be inside or outside
> quotes (8.7.2), I feel like there could be an entry in the manual
> mentioning the same thing about parentheses? I feel like if the "common
> issue" contains "rules" not mentioned in the menu it might create
> confusion (as it did for me)?
>
> On Sat, Aug 6, 2022 at 11:48 AM Vince Rice <vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>> wrote:
>
> It's not in the manual, that's why it's in common issues. :) The
> manual is "this is the way a book should look"; the step-by-step and
> especially the common issues deal with things we encounter in
> getting them there. Alex mentioned adding a link to common issues
> from the step by step; I haven't looked recently, so I don't know if
> that's happened yet.
>
>> On Aug 6, 2022, at 10:21 AM, Matt Chan <thew...@gmail.com
>> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Thanks Vince, I might be wrong but I can't find this in the
>> Manual, maybe we should add it?
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 6, 2022, 11:13 AM Vince Rice
>> <vr_se...@letterboxes.org <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> We do, actually. See the first item in the common issues
>> guide,
>> https://standardebooks.org/contribute/how-tos/common-issues-when-working-on-public-domain-ebooks
>> <https://standardebooks.org/contribute/how-tos/common-issues-when-working-on-public-domain-ebooks>.
>>
>>
>>> On Aug 6, 2022, at 2:20 AM, Robin Whittleton <ro...@reala.net
>>> <mailto:ro...@reala.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Parentheses? Leave them as per the source, we don’t have any
>>> rule here that I’m aware of.
>>>
>>>> On 5 Aug 2022, at 23:45, Matt Chan <thew...@gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Double checking: do we do anything to commas and periods
>>>> inside vs. outside of parentheses? Or leave as they are in
>>>> transcription/page scans?
>>
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Matt Chan

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Aug 6, 2022, 12:09:52 PM8/6/22
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Okay Alex, I'll try to do some reading on this and report back.

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Matt Chan

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Aug 8, 2022, 8:36:51 PM8/8/22
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Alex, I'm waiting to check the official Chicago style manual, but broadly speaking the rule seems to be that if punctuation should go in/out of a parentheses in the way that if you remove the entire parenthetical section what remains can stand on its own. Therefore:

1. Let's go. (I already paid.) → Let's go.
2. Let's go. (I already paid). → Let's go..

In this case 1. is correct; removing the parenthetical section left a proper sentence, but 2. is incorrect because it left an extra period.

On the other hand:

1. The meeting is at 11 o'clock (eastern standard time.) → The meeting is at 11 o'clock
2. The meeting is at 11 o'clock (eastern standard time). → The meeting is at 11 o'clock.

In this case 2. is correct, because in 1. removing the parenthetical section left what remained without a terminal period.

I will update as I keep digging.

Matt Chan

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Aug 8, 2022, 8:47:47 PM8/8/22
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For an abbreviation of the title of a book, would we still italicize it? If so, would we add the book epub attribute to <abbr> and use CSS to italicize (<abbr epub:type="se...), or do we do <abbr><i epub:type="se... ? (Incidentally, the abbreviated, book title might be foreign as well, but I can't really tell because the abbreviation is Ann. for Annals in English, or Annales in Latin, I can use some guidance here as well.)

Robin Whittleton

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Aug 9, 2022, 1:13:40 PM8/9/22
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I’d go <i epub:type=“se…”><abbr>Ann.</abbr></i> . I’d suggest just leaving it as English here.

-Robin

Matt Chan

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Aug 9, 2022, 1:20:34 PM8/9/22
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Thanks Robin, I will do so.

Matt Chan

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Aug 23, 2022, 9:41:11 PM8/23/22
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Double-checking: Vulgate, which is the specific Latin translation of the Christian Bible, is that word itself quoted/italicized etc.?

Alex Cabal

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Aug 23, 2022, 9:55:26 PM8/23/22
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As in the Vulgate Bible? Neither, it's a holy book.

On 8/23/22 8:40 PM, Matt Chan wrote:
> Double-checking: Vulgate, which is the specific Latin translation of the
> Christian Bible, is that word itself quoted/italicized etc.?
>
> On Tue, Aug 9, 2022 at 1:20 PM Matt Chan <thew...@gmail.com
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Thanks Robin, I will do so.
>
> On Tue, Aug 9, 2022 at 1:13 PM Robin Whittleton <ro...@reala.net
> <mailto:ro...@reala.net>> wrote:
>
> I’d go <i epub:type=“se…”><abbr>Ann.</abbr></i> . I’d suggest
> just leaving it as English here.
>
> -Robin
>
>> On 9 Aug 2022, at 02:47, Matt Chan <thew...@gmail.com
>> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> For an abbreviation of the title of a book, would we still
>> italicize it? If so, would we add the book epub attribute to
>> <abbr> and use CSS to italicize (<abbr epub:type="se...), or
>> do we do <abbr><i epub:type="se... ? (Incidentally, the
>> abbreviated, book title might be foreign as well, but I can't
>> really tell because the abbreviation is Ann. for Annals in
>> English, or/Annales/in Latin, I can use some guidance here as
>> > <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org
>> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>>> wrote:
>> >
>> >     It's not in the manual, that's why it's in
>> common issues. :) The
>> >     manual is "this is the way a book should
>> look"; the step-by-step and
>> >     especially the common issues deal with
>> things we encounter in
>> >     getting them there. Alex mentioned adding a
>> link to common issues
>> >     from the step by step; I haven't looked
>> recently, so I don't know if
>> >     that's happened yet.
>> >
>> >>     On Aug 6, 2022, at 10:21 AM, Matt Chan
>> <thew...@gmail.com <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>
>> >>     <mailto:thew...@gmail.com
>> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>> >>     
>> >>     Thanks Vince, I might be wrong but I can't
>> find this in the
>> >>     Manual, maybe we should add it?
>> >>
>> >>     On Sat, Aug 6, 2022, 11:13 AM Vince Rice
>> >>     <vr_se...@letterboxes.org
>> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org><mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org
>> >>>         <mailto:ro...@reala.net
>> <mailto:ro...@reala.net>>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>         Parentheses? Leave them as per the
>> source, we don’t have any
>> >>>         rule here that I’m aware of.
>> >>>
>> >>>>         On 5 Aug 2022, at 23:45, Matt Chan
>> <thew...@gmail.com <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>
>> >>>>         <mailto:thew...@gmail.com
>> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>> >>>>         
>> >>>>         Double checking: do we do anything to
>> commas and periods
>> >>>>         inside vs. outside of parentheses? Or
>> leave as they are in
>> >>>>         transcription/page scans?
>> >>
>> >     --
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Matt Chan

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Aug 23, 2022, 10:19:44 PM8/23/22
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Yep, and thanks for confirming.

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Matt Chan

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Sep 3, 2022, 3:26:19 PM9/3/22
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For an endnote that looks like this:

"Ut olim⁠ ⁠… laboramus."⁠—Montaigne, Essais, III, 13. Tacitus, Ann., III, 25. ↩

Would I wrap both references in a <cite> altogether? That is:

 <p>"<i xml:lang="la">Ut olim⁠ ⁠… laboramus.</i>"⁠<cite>—Montaigne, <i epub:type="se:name.publication.book" xml:lang="fr">Essais</i>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">III</span>, 13. Tacitus, <i epub:type="se:name.publication.book"><abbr>Ann.</abbr></i>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">III</span>, 25</cite>. <a href="section-5.xhtml#noteref-116" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>

Something like this? Or is the <cite> tags not necessary in this case, or perhaps the formatting is in some other ways?

Matt Chan

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Sep 3, 2022, 8:47:30 PM9/3/22
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One more question, does abbreviation right before an em dash require the class="eoc" attribute? E.g.:

<p>"When it is said, <abbr class="eoc">etc.</abbr>"⁠—By Descartes.</p>

B Keith

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Sep 4, 2022, 10:08:28 AM9/4/22
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My. understanding is the eoc  class is used to indicate that the period is doing double duty as a full stop and an indicator it is an abbreviation— so no it is not necessary before an em dash.

Robin Whittleton

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Sep 4, 2022, 2:14:11 PM9/4/22
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In this case it’s inside a closing quote, so is both finishing the sentence and indicating an abbreviation: eoc is right.

Either way, dual citations isn’t something we have in SEMOS. Looking at the HTML spec for <cite> it seems we’re getting even our normal citations wrong:

The cite element represents the title of a work […] A person's name is not the title of a work — even if people call that person a piece of work — and the element must therefore not be used to mark up people's names.

Does it look OK with two <cite> elements, one for each work / author pair? If so I’d probably go with that for the time being.

-Robin

Matt Chan

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Sep 4, 2022, 5:39:37 PM9/4/22
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Thanks Robin, I will add class="eoc" for all <abbr> elements for those inside a quote that ends right before an em dash.

Here's what adding two <cite> element would look code wise:

<p>"<i xml:lang="la">Ut olim⁠ ⁠… laboramus.</i>"⁠<cite>—Montaigne, <i epub:type="se:name.publication.book" xml:lang="fr">Essais</i>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">III</span>, 13</cite>. <cite>Tacitus, <i epub:type="se:name.publication.book"><abbr>Ann.</abbr></i>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">III</span>, 25</cite>. <a href="section-5.xhtml#noteref-116" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>

So the first <cite> would end right before the period, and the next one begins right after the period. In this case there will not be an em dash that precedes the author being cited. Is that okay?

I have a follow up question regarding <cite>; I've been adding them only if it's formatted like so in the original text:

<p>"<i xml:lang="la">Noli me tangere.</i>"⁠<cite>—John 20:17</cite>. <a href="section-7.xhtml#noteref-210" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>

However, in many of the endnotes we also have something like:

<p>"Corneille."⁠—See his <i epub:type="se:name.publication.play">Horace</i>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">II</span>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">III</span>. <a href="section-7.xhtml#noteref-202" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>

In this case I did not add a <cite> tag because of some extra words before the reference, like "See his..." etc. Is that the way to go about it? Or should they get <cite> tags regardless? And if so, when do we close the <cite> tag given the extra text? Another more extensive example I'm iffy on might be (here I did not add the <cite> tag because of extra text before and after the reference):

<p>"They win battles."⁠—Montaigne, in his <i epub:type="se:name.publication.book" xml:lang="fr">Essais</i>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">II</span>, 12, relates that the Portuguese were compelled to raise the siege of Tamly on account of the number of flies. <a href="section-6.xhtml#noteref-153" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>

Thanks for the attention!

Matt Chan

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Sep 4, 2022, 5:52:47 PM9/4/22
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I'm sorry but one more question about <cite>... in a previous answer David said chapter numbers etc. falls outside of <cite>, but an exception is made for Bible verses, correct?

So:
<p>“And the Christians, <abbr class="eoc>etc.</abbr>”⁠<cite>—Romans 6:20; 8:14–15</cite>. <a href="section-10.xhtml#noteref-256" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>

Or:
<p>“And the Christians, <abbr class="eoc>etc.</abbr>”⁠<cite>—Romans</cite> 6:20; 8:14–15. <a href="section-10.xhtml#noteref-256" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>

 Which one is correct? What if the citation is to two or more different books of the Bible? Would we do two <cite> elements like we discussed above?

Robin Whittleton

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Sep 5, 2022, 1:22:29 PM9/5/22
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This are educated guesses rather than specific policy, and I’m happy to hear dissenting opinion but:

  • For the “See his” citations, I’d be tempted to remove the “See his” in an [Editorial] commit
  • For the “They win battles” quote, that feels to me like it’s not a cite element at all. I’d present it as an uncited blockquote, then start a new paragraph with the rest of the sentence.
  • We include verse and chapter inside the cite, see https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.7.0/single-page#8.17.4.1.1 for an example.

-Robin

Matt Chan

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Sep 5, 2022, 1:34:10 PM9/5/22
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Thanks Robin. Alex and others, any opinions here? Anything to warrant some clarifications to the manual? 

Alex Cabal

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Sep 6, 2022, 4:39:40 PM9/6/22
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The citation is the entire thing. If there's a book and also a chapter,
the citation is to the entire thing.

On 9/5/22 12:33 PM, Matt Chan wrote:
> Thanks Robin. Alex and others, any opinions here? Anything to warrant
> some clarifications to the manual?
>
> On Mon, Sep 5, 2022, 1:22 PM Robin Whittleton <ro...@reala.net
> <mailto:ro...@reala.net>> wrote:
>
> This are educated guesses rather than specific policy, and I’m happy
> to hear dissenting opinion but:
>
> * For the “See his” citations, I’d be tempted to remove the “See
> his” in an [Editorial] commit
> * For the “They win battles” quote, that feels to me like it’s not
> a cite element at all. I’d present it as an uncited blockquote,
> then start a new paragraph with the rest of the sentence.
> * We include verse and chapter inside the cite, see
>> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I'm sorry but one more question about<cite>... in a previous
>> answer David said chapter numbers etc. falls outside of <cite>,
>> but an exception is made for Bible verses, correct?
>>
>> So:
>>
>> <p>“And the Christians, <abbr
>> class="eoc>etc.</abbr>”⁠<cite>—Romans 6:20; 8:14–15</cite>. <a
>> href="section-10.xhtml#noteref-256" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>
>>
>>
>> Or:
>>
>> <p>“And the Christians, <abbr
>> class="eoc>etc.</abbr>”⁠<cite>—Romans</cite> 6:20; 8:14–15. <a
>> href="section-10.xhtml#noteref-256" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>
>>
>>
>>  Which one is correct? What if the citation is to two or more
>> different books of the Bible? Would we do two<cite>elements like
>> we discussed above?
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 4, 2022 at 5:39 PM Matt Chan <thew...@gmail.com
>> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Robin, I will addclass="eoc"for all<abbr>elements for
>> <https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/text-level-semantics.html#the-cite-element> it
>> seems we’re getting even our normal citations wrong:
>>
>> /The cite element represents the title of a work […] A
>> person's name is not the title of a work — even if people
>> call that person a piece of work — and the element must
>> therefore not be used to mark up people's names./
>> /
>> /
>> Does it look OK with two <cite> elements, one for each
>> work / author pair? If so I’d probably go with that for
>> the time being.
>>
>> -Robin
>>
>>> On 4 Sep 2022, at 16:08, B Keith <bois...@gmail.com
>>> <mailto:bois...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> My. understanding is the eoc  class is used to indicate
>>> that the period is doing double duty as a full stop and
>>> an indicator it is an abbreviation— so no it is not
>>> necessary before an em dash.
>>>
>>>> On Sep 3, 2022, at 6:47 PM, Matt Chan
>>>> <thew...@gmail.com <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> One more question, does abbreviation right before an em
>>>> dash require theclass="eoc"attribute? E.g.:
>>>> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> As in the Vulgate Bible? Neither, it's a
>>>> holy book.
>>>>
>>>> On 8/23/22 8:40 PM, Matt Chan wrote:
>>>> > Double-checking: Vulgate, which is the
>>>> specific Latin translation of the
>>>> > Christian Bible, is that word itself
>>>> quoted/italicized etc.?
>>>> >
>>>> > On Tue, Aug 9, 2022 at 1:20 PM Matt Chan
>>>> <thew...@gmail.com <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>
>>>> > <mailto:thew...@gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >     Thanks Robin, I will do so.
>>>> >
>>>> >     On Tue, Aug 9, 2022 at 1:13 PM Robin
>>>> Whittleton <ro...@reala.net
>>>> <mailto:ro...@reala.net>
>>>> >     <mailto:ro...@reala.net
>>>> <mailto:ro...@reala.net>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >         I’d go <i
>>>> epub:type=“se…”><abbr>Ann.</abbr></i> . I’d
>>>> suggest
>>>> >         just leaving it as English here.
>>>> >
>>>> >         -Robin
>>>> >
>>>> >>         On 9 Aug 2022, at 02:47, Matt
>>>> Chan <thew...@gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>
>>>> >>         <mailto:thew...@gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>         For an abbreviation of the title
>>>> of a book, would we still
>>>> >>         italicize it? If so, would we add
>>>> the book epub attribute to
>>>> >>         <abbr> and use CSS to italicize
>>>> (<abbr epub:type="se...), or
>>>> >>         do we do <abbr><i
>>>> epub:type="se... ? (Incidentally, the
>>>> >>         abbreviated, book title might be
>>>> foreign as well, but I can't
>>>> >>         really tell because the
>>>> abbreviation is Ann. for Annals in
>>>> >>         English, or/Annales/in Latin, I
>>>> can use some guidance here as
>>>> >>         well.)
>>>> >>
>>>> >>         On Mon, Aug 8, 2022 at 8:36 PM
>>>> Matt Chan <thew...@gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>
>>>> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com><mailto:thew...@gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>                 Okay Alex, I'll try to do
>>>> some reading on this and
>>>> >>                 report back.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>                 On Sat, Aug 6, 2022 at
>>>> 12:07 PM Alex Cabal
>>>> >>                 <al...@standardebooks.org
>>>> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
>>>> >>
>>>>  <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
>>>> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>><mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org
>>>> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>
>>>> >>
>>>>  <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org
>>>>  <mailto:thew...@gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>
>>>> >>
>>>>  <mailto:thew...@gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>                     >>>>         
>>>> >>                     >>>>         Double
>>>> checking: do we do anything to
>>>> >>                     commas and periods
>>>> >>                     >>>>         inside
>>>> vs. outside of parentheses? Or
>>>> >>                     leave as they are in
>>>> >>                     >>>>
>>>>  transcription/page scans?
>>>> >>                     >>
>>>> >>                     >     --
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>>>> >>                     >
>>>> >>
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>>>> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
>>>> >>
>>>>  <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
>>>> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>>.
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>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/6D2ADEAC-BCD7-485F-8EEF-1B21B640ABC8%40letterboxes.org>
>>>> >>
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>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/6D2ADEAC-BCD7-485F-8EEF-1B21B640ABC8%40letterboxes.org>>
>>>> >>                     >
>>>> >>
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>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/6D2ADEAC-BCD7-485F-8EEF-1B21B640ABC8%40letterboxes.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>> >>
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>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/6D2ADEAC-BCD7-485F-8EEF-1B21B640ABC8%40letterboxes.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>.
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>>>> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com><mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
>>>> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>>.
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>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTd_zOyhXga9oAFSq2udgarR6QgyiO_EZTDiFwT4SeZgrQ%40mail.gmail.com>
>>>> >>
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>>>> >>                     >
>>>> >>
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>>>> >>
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>>>> >>
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>>>> >
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Matt Chan

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Sep 6, 2022, 4:47:46 PM9/6/22
to standar...@googlegroups.com
Alex, is this in contradiction to what David had told me earlier? See:

Q (from me):
In an endnote with a <cite> element, does the chapter/page/etc number fall into the <cite> element or outside?
A (from David):
Outside. 

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Alex Cabal

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Sep 6, 2022, 4:48:51 PM9/6/22
to standar...@googlegroups.com
When you're citing something, the reference is to a specific place in a
book. What use is a citation if it excludes the place in the book?

On 9/6/22 3:47 PM, Matt Chan wrote:
> Alex, is this in contradiction to what David had told me earlier? See:
>
> Q (from me):
>
> In an endnote with a <cite> element, does the chapter/page/etc
> number fall into the<cite> element or outside?
>
> A (from David):
>
> Outside.
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 6, 2022 at 4:39 PM Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>> wrote:
>
> The citation is the entire thing. If there's a book and also a chapter,
> the citation is to the entire thing.
>
> On 9/5/22 12:33 PM, Matt Chan wrote:
> > Thanks Robin. Alex and others, any opinions here? Anything to
> warrant
> > some clarifications to the manual?
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 5, 2022, 1:22 PM Robin Whittleton <ro...@reala.net
> <mailto:ro...@reala.net>
> > <mailto:ro...@reala.net <mailto:ro...@reala.net>>> wrote:
> >
> >     This are educated guesses rather than specific policy, and
> I’m happy
> >     to hear dissenting opinion but:
> >
> >       * For the “See his” citations, I’d be tempted to remove the
> “See
> >         his” in an [Editorial] commit
> >       * For the “They win battles” quote, that feels to me like
> it’s not
> >         a cite element at all. I’d present it as an uncited
> blockquote,
> >         then start a new paragraph with the rest of the sentence.
> >       * We include verse and chapter inside the cite, see
> > https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.7.0/single-page#8.17.4.1.1
> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.7.0/single-page#8.17.4.1.1>
> >
>  <https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.7.0/single-page#8.17.4.1.1
> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.7.0/single-page#8.17.4.1.1>>
> >         for an example.
> >
> >
> >     -Robin
> >
> >>     On 4 Sep 2022, at 23:52, Matt Chan <thew...@gmail.com
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>
> >>     <mailto:thew...@gmail.com <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >>
> >>     I'm sorry but one more question about<cite>... in a previous
> >>     answer David said chapter numbers etc. falls outside of <cite>,
> >>     but an exception is made for Bible verses, correct?
> >>
> >>     So:
> >>
> >>         <p>“And the Christians, <abbr
> >>         class="eoc>etc.</abbr>”⁠<cite>—Romans 6:20;
> 8:14–15</cite>. <a
> >>         href="section-10.xhtml#noteref-256"
> epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>
> >>
> >>
> >>     Or:
> >>
> >>         <p>“And the Christians, <abbr
> >>         class="eoc>etc.</abbr>”⁠<cite>—Romans</cite> 6:20;
> 8:14–15. <a
> >>         href="section-10.xhtml#noteref-256"
> epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>
> >>
> >>
> >>      Which one is correct? What if the citation is to two or more
> >>     different books of the Bible? Would we do two<cite>elements like
> >>     we discussed above?
> >>
> >>     On Sun, Sep 4, 2022 at 5:39 PM Matt Chan <thew...@gmail.com
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>
> <mailto:ro...@reala.net <mailto:ro...@reala.net>>> wrote:
> >>
> >>             In this case it’s inside a closing quote, so is both
> >>             finishing the sentence and indicating an
> abbreviation: eoc
> >>             is right.
> >>
> >>             Either way, dual citations isn’t something we have in
> >>             SEMOS. Looking at the HTML spec for <cite>
> >>
>  <https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/text-level-semantics.html#the-cite-element <https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/text-level-semantics.html#the-cite-element>> it
> >>             seems we’re getting even our normal citations wrong:
> >>
> >>             /The cite element represents the title of a work […] A
> >>             person's name is not the title of a work — even if
> people
> >>             call that person a piece of work — and the element must
> >>             therefore not be used to mark up people's names./
> >>             /
> >>             /
> >>             Does it look OK with two <cite> elements, one for each
> >>             work / author pair? If so I’d probably go with that for
> >>             the time being.
> >>
> >>             -Robin
> >>
> >>>             On 4 Sep 2022, at 16:08, B Keith
> <bois...@gmail.com <mailto:bois...@gmail.com>
> >>>             <mailto:bois...@gmail.com
> <mailto:bois...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>             My. understanding is the eoc  class is used to indicate
> >>>             that the period is doing double duty as a full stop and
> >>>             an indicator it is an abbreviation— so no it is not
> >>>             necessary before an em dash.
> >>>
> >>>>             On Sep 3, 2022, at 6:47 PM, Matt Chan
> >>>>             <thew...@gmail.com <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>             One more question, does abbreviation right before
> an em
> >>>>             dash require theclass="eoc"attribute? E.g.:
> >>>>
> >>>>                 <p>"When it is said, <abbr
> >>>>                 class="eoc">etc.</abbr>"⁠—By Descartes.</p>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>             On Sat, Sep 3, 2022 at 3:26 PM Matt Chan
> >>>>             <thew...@gmail.com <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>                     Yep, and thanks for confirming.
> >>>>
> >>>>                     On Tue, Aug 23, 2022 at 9:55 PM Alex Cabal
> >>>>                     <al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> >>>>                     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>                         As in the Vulgate Bible? Neither, it's a
> >>>>                         holy book.
> >>>>
> >>>>                         On 8/23/22 8:40 PM, Matt Chan wrote:
> >>>>                         > Double-checking: Vulgate, which is the
> >>>>                         specific Latin translation of the
> >>>>                         > Christian Bible, is that word itself
> >>>>                         quoted/italicized etc.?
> >>>>                         >
> >>>>                         > On Tue, Aug 9, 2022 at 1:20 PM Matt Chan
> >>>>                         <thew...@gmail.com
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>>
> >>>>                         > <mailto:thew...@gmail.com
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>
> >>>>                         <mailto:thew...@gmail.com
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>>>> wrote:
> >>>>                         >
> >>>>                         >     Thanks Robin, I will do so.
> >>>>                         >
> >>>>                         >     On Tue, Aug 9, 2022 at 1:13 PM Robin
> >>>>                         Whittleton <ro...@reala.net
> <mailto:ro...@reala.net>
> >>>>                         <mailto:ro...@reala.net
> <mailto:ro...@reala.net>>
> >>>>                         >     <mailto:ro...@reala.net
> <mailto:ro...@reala.net>
> >>>>                         <mailto:ro...@reala.net
> <mailto:ro...@reala.net>>>> wrote:
> >>>>                         >
> >>>>                         >         I’d go <i
> >>>>                         epub:type=“se…”><abbr>Ann.</abbr></i>
> . I’d
> >>>>                         suggest
> >>>>                         >         just leaving it as English here.
> >>>>                         >
> >>>>                         >         -Robin
> >>>>                         >
> >>>>                         >>         On 9 Aug 2022, at 02:47, Matt
> >>>>                         Chan <thew...@gmail.com
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>
> >>>>                         <mailto:thew...@gmail.com
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>>
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>>><mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>
> >>>>                         <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>>
> >>>>                         >>
> >>>>                          <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>
> >>>>                         <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> >>>>                          <mailto:thew...@gmail.com
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>
> >>>>                         <mailto:thew...@gmail.com
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>>
> >>>>                         >>
> >>>>                          <mailto:thew...@gmail.com
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>
> >>>>                         <mailto:thew...@gmail.com
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>                         >>                     >>>>         
> >>>>                         >>                     >>>>         Double
> >>>>                         checking: do we do anything to
> >>>>                         >>                     commas and periods
> >>>>                         >>                     >>>>         inside
> >>>>                         vs. outside of parentheses? Or
> >>>>                         >>                     leave as they
> are in
> >>>>                         >>                     >>>>
> >>>>                          transcription/page scans?
> >>>>                         >>                     >>
> >>>>                         >>                     >     --
> >>>>                         >>                     >     You received
> >>>>                         this message because you are
> >>>>                         >>                     subscribed to
> the Google
> >>>>                         >>                     >     Groups
> >>>>                         "Standard Ebooks" group.
> >>>>                         >>                     >     To
> unsubscribe
> >>>>                         from this group and stop
> >>>>                         >>                     receiving
> emails from it,
> >>>>                         >>                     >     send an email
> >>>>                         >>
> >>>> tostandardeboo...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:tostandardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> <mailto:tostandardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:tostandardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>
> >>>>                         >>
> >>>>
>   <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> >>>>
>  <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>>>
> >>>>                         >>                     >
> >>>>                         >>
> >>>>
>    <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> >>>>
>  <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>
> >>>>                         >>
> >>>>
>   <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> >>>>
>  <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>>>>.
> <mailto:tostandardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:tostandardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>
> >>>>                         >>
> >>>>
>   <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> >>>>
>  <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>>>
> >>>>                         >>                     >
> >>>>                         >>
> >>>>
>   <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> >>>>
>  <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>><mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> >>>>
>  <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>>>>.
> >>>>                         >>                     > To view this
> >>>>                         discussion on the web visit
> >>>>                         >>
> >>>>
>   >https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTd_zOyhXga9oAFSq2udgarR6QgyiO_EZTDiFwT4SeZgrQ%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTd_zOyhXga9oAFSq2udgarR6QgyiO_EZTDiFwT4SeZgrQ%40mail.gmail.com>
> >>>>
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTd_zOyhXga9oAFSq2udgarR6QgyiO_EZTDiFwT4SeZgrQ%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTd_zOyhXga9oAFSq2udgarR6QgyiO_EZTDiFwT4SeZgrQ%40mail.gmail.com>>
> >>>>                         >>
> >>>>
>   <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTd_zOyhXga9oAFSq2udgarR6QgyiO_EZTDiFwT4SeZgrQ%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTd_zOyhXga9oAFSq2udgarR6QgyiO_EZTDiFwT4SeZgrQ%40mail.gmail.com>
> >>>>
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTd_zOyhXga9oAFSq2udgarR6QgyiO_EZTDiFwT4SeZgrQ%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTd_zOyhXga9oAFSq2udgarR6QgyiO_EZTDiFwT4SeZgrQ%40mail.gmail.com>>>
> >>>>                         >>                     >
> >>>>                         >>
> >>>>
>   <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTd_zOyhXga9oAFSq2udgarR6QgyiO_EZTDiFwT4SeZgrQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTd_zOyhXga9oAFSq2udgarR6QgyiO_EZTDiFwT4SeZgrQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> >>>>
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTd_zOyhXga9oAFSq2udgarR6QgyiO_EZTDiFwT4SeZgrQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTd_zOyhXga9oAFSq2udgarR6QgyiO_EZTDiFwT4SeZgrQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>
> >>>>                         >>
> >>>>
>   <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTd_zOyhXga9oAFSq2udgarR6QgyiO_EZTDiFwT4SeZgrQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTd_zOyhXga9oAFSq2udgarR6QgyiO_EZTDiFwT4SeZgrQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> >>>>
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTd_zOyhXga9oAFSq2udgarR6QgyiO_EZTDiFwT4SeZgrQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTd_zOyhXga9oAFSq2udgarR6QgyiO_EZTDiFwT4SeZgrQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>>.
> >>>>                         >>
> >>>>                         >>                     --
> >>>>                         >>                     You received this
> >>>>                         message because you are
> >>>>                         >>                     subscribed to the
> >>>>                         Google Groups "Standard Ebooks"
> >>>>                         >>                     group.
> >>>>                         >>                     To unsubscribe from
> >>>>                         this group and stop receiving
> >>>>                         >>                     emails from it,
> send
> >>>>                         an email
> >>>>                         >>
> >>>> tostandardeboo...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:tostandardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> <mailto:tostandardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:tostandardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>
> >>>>                         >>
> >>>>
>   <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> >>>>
>  <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>>>.
> >>>>                         >>                     To view this
> >>>>                         discussion on the web
> >>>>                         >>
> >>>>
>   visithttps://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/555a25b7-7262-e540-0737-a973f9a4c16c%40standardebooks.org <http://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/555a25b7-7262-e540-0737-a973f9a4c16c%40standardebooks.org>
> >>>>
>  <http://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/555a25b7-7262-e540-0737-a973f9a4c16c%40standardebooks.org <http://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/555a25b7-7262-e540-0737-a973f9a4c16c%40standardebooks.org>>
> >>>>                         >>
> >>>>
>   <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/555a25b7-7262-e540-0737-a973f9a4c16c%40standardebooks.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/555a25b7-7262-e540-0737-a973f9a4c16c%40standardebooks.org>
> >>>>
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/555a25b7-7262-e540-0737-a973f9a4c16c%40standardebooks.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/555a25b7-7262-e540-0737-a973f9a4c16c%40standardebooks.org>>>.
> >>>>                         >>
> >>>>                         >>
> >>>>                         >>         --
> >>>>                         >>         You received this message
> because
> >>>>                         you are subscribed to the
> >>>>                         >>         Google Groups "Standard Ebooks"
> >>>>                         group.
> >>>>                         >>         To unsubscribe from this group
> >>>>                         and stop receiving emails from
> >>>>                         >>         it, send an email
> >>>>                         >>
> >>>> tostandardeboo...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:tostandardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> <mailto:tostandardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:tostandardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>
> >>>>                         >>
> >>>>
>   <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> >>>>
>  <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>>.
> >>>>                         >>         To view this discussion on
> the web
> >>>>                         >>
> >>>>
>   visithttps://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTebuNSujAwj0_vZcdnob6yztgPrOZgrFt1y5syfVvz4LA%40mail.gmail.com <http://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTebuNSujAwj0_vZcdnob6yztgPrOZgrFt1y5syfVvz4LA%40mail.gmail.com>
> >>>>
>  <http://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTebuNSujAwj0_vZcdnob6yztgPrOZgrFt1y5syfVvz4LA%40mail.gmail.com <http://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTebuNSujAwj0_vZcdnob6yztgPrOZgrFt1y5syfVvz4LA%40mail.gmail.com>>
> >>>>                         >>
> >>>>
>   <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTebuNSujAwj0_vZcdnob6yztgPrOZgrFt1y5syfVvz4LA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTebuNSujAwj0_vZcdnob6yztgPrOZgrFt1y5syfVvz4LA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> >>>>
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTebuNSujAwj0_vZcdnob6yztgPrOZgrFt1y5syfVvz4LA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTebuNSujAwj0_vZcdnob6yztgPrOZgrFt1y5syfVvz4LA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>.
> >>>>                         >
> >>>>                         >         --
> >>>>                         >         You received this message
> because
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> >>>>                         >         To unsubscribe from this
> group and
> >>>>                         stop receiving emails from
> >>>>                         >         it, send an email
> >>>> tostandardeboo...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:tostandardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>
> >>>>                         >
> >>>>
>   <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> >>>>
>  <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>>.
> >>>>                         >         To view this discussion on
> the web
> >>>>                         visit
> >>>>                         >
> >>>>
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/97858C99-3C76-4E85-AAC9-AF87537A2F66%40reala.net
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/97858C99-3C76-4E85-AAC9-AF87537A2F66%40reala.net>
> >>>>
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/97858C99-3C76-4E85-AAC9-AF87537A2F66%40reala.net <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/97858C99-3C76-4E85-AAC9-AF87537A2F66%40reala.net>>
> >>>>                         >
> >>>>
>   <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/97858C99-3C76-4E85-AAC9-AF87537A2F66%40reala.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/97858C99-3C76-4E85-AAC9-AF87537A2F66%40reala.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> >>>>
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/97858C99-3C76-4E85-AAC9-AF87537A2F66%40reala.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/97858C99-3C76-4E85-AAC9-AF87537A2F66%40reala.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>.
> >>>>                         >
> >>>>                         > --
> >>>>                         > You received this message because
> you are
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> >>>>                         receiving emails from it, send
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Matt Chan

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Sep 6, 2022, 5:00:57 PM9/6/22
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I'm not sure and that's why I'm trying to clarify this for myself, apologies if my questions seem asinine, but I truly don't have a good handle on this. Can I run a couple examples by you to avoid further confusion on my part?

e.g.
<p>"Corneille."⁠—See his <i epub:type="se:name.publication.play">Horace</i>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">II</span>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">III</span>. <a href="section-7.xhtml#noteref-202" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>

Here, what i'm gathering from you, Alex, is the correct rendering would be:

<p>"Corneille."<cite>⁠—See his <i epub:type="se:name.publication.play">Horace</i>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">II</span>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">III</span></cite>. <a href="section-7.xhtml#noteref-202" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>

(I think the </cite> closes before the period?)

Another variation:
<p>"They win battles."⁠—Montaigne, in his <i epub:type="se:name.publication.book" xml:lang="fr">Essais</i>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">II</span>, 12, relates that the Portuguese were compelled to raise the siege of Tamly on account of the number of flies. <a href="section-6.xhtml#noteref-153" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>

This one I'm less sure of, but would it be:

<p>"They win battles."⁠—Montaigne, in his <cite><i epub:type="se:name.publication.book" xml:lang="fr">Essais</i>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">II</span>, 12</cite>, relates that the Portuguese were compelled to raise the siege of Tamly on account of the number of flies. <a href="section-6.xhtml#noteref-153" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>
 
What about the case where multiple sources were cited?

 <p>"<i xml:lang="la">Ut olim⁠ ⁠… laboramus.</i>"⁠—Montaigne, <i epub:type="se:name.publication.book" xml:lang="fr">Essais</i>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">III</span>, 13. Tacitus, <i epub:type="se:name.publication.book"><abbr>Ann.</abbr></i>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">III</span>, 25. <a href="section-5.xhtml#noteref-116" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>

Would the correct rendering be one <cite> element for both source:
 <p>"<i xml:lang="la">Ut olim⁠ ⁠… laboramus.</i>"⁠<cite>—Montaigne, <i epub:type="se:name.publication.book" xml:lang="fr">Essais</i>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">III</span>, 13. Tacitus, <i epub:type="se:name.publication.book"><abbr>Ann.</abbr></i>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">III</span>, 25</cite>. <a href="section-5.xhtml#noteref-116" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p> 

Or two separate as Robin has suggested?
  <p>"<i xml:lang="la">Ut olim⁠ ⁠… laboramus.</i>"⁠<cite>—Montaigne, <i epub:type="se:name.publication.book" xml:lang="fr">Essais</i>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">III</span>, 13</cite>. <cite>Tacitus, <i epub:type="se:name.publication.book"><abbr>Ann.</abbr></i>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">III</span>, 25</cite>. <a href="section-5.xhtml#noteref-116" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>
 
Sorry again for a long post and unrelenting question, just wanted to make sure I truly understand.

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Alex Cabal

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Sep 6, 2022, 5:08:13 PM9/6/22
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I'm not going to do a blow by blow because I want you to reason this out
for yourself.

A citation is a reference to some other book, and sometimes a specific
place in a particular book. Could the contents of a tag allow a computer
to arrive at the exact location referenced by the endnote? Is the text
"see here" a useful reference a computer or data model would understand?
> > <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>> wrote:
> >
> >     The citation is the entire thing. If there's a book and also
> a chapter,
> >     the citation is to the entire thing.
> >
> >     On 9/5/22 12:33 PM, Matt Chan wrote:
> >      > Thanks Robin. Alex and others, any opinions here? Anything to
> >     warrant
> >      > some clarifications to the manual?
> >      >
> >      > On Mon, Sep 5, 2022, 1:22 PM Robin Whittleton
> <ro...@reala.net <mailto:ro...@reala.net>
> >     <mailto:ro...@reala.net <mailto:ro...@reala.net>>
> >     <mailto:ro...@reala.net <mailto:ro...@reala.net>
> <mailto:ro...@reala.net <mailto:ro...@reala.net>>>> wrote:
> >      >>
> >      >>             In this case it’s inside a closing quote, so
> is both
> >      >>             finishing the sentence and indicating an
> >     abbreviation: eoc
> >      >>             is right.
> >      >>
> >      >>             Either way, dual citations isn’t something we
> have in
> >      >>             SEMOS. Looking at the HTML spec for <cite>
> >      >>
> >
>  <https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/text-level-semantics.html#the-cite-element <https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/text-level-semantics.html#the-cite-element> <https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/text-level-semantics.html#the-cite-element <https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/text-level-semantics.html#the-cite-element>>> it
> >      >>             seems we’re getting even our normal citations
> wrong:
> >      >>
> >      >>             /The cite element represents the title of a
> work […] A
> >      >>             person's name is not the title of a work —
> even if
> >     people
> >      >>             call that person a piece of work — and the
> element must
> >      >>             therefore not be used to mark up people's names./
> >      >>             /
> >      >>             /
> >      >>             Does it look OK with two <cite> elements, one
> for each
> >      >>             work / author pair? If so I’d probably go
> with that for
> >      >>             the time being.
> >      >>
> >      >>             -Robin
> >      >>
> >      >>>             On 4 Sep 2022, at 16:08, B Keith
> >     <bois...@gmail.com <mailto:bois...@gmail.com>
> <mailto:bois...@gmail.com <mailto:bois...@gmail.com>>
> >      >>>             <mailto:bois...@gmail.com
> <mailto:bois...@gmail.com>
> >     <mailto:bois...@gmail.com <mailto:bois...@gmail.com>>>>
> wrote:
> >      >>>
> >      >>>             My. understanding is the eoc  class is used
> to indicate
> >      >>>             that the period is doing double duty as a
> full stop and
> >      >>>             an indicator it is an abbreviation— so no it
> is not
> >      >>>             necessary before an em dash.
> >      >>>
> >      >>>>             On Sep 3, 2022, at 6:47 PM, Matt Chan
> >      >>>>             <thew...@gmail.com
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>>
> >     <mailto:thew...@gmail.com <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>>>> wrote:
> >      >>>>
> >      >>>>             One more question, does abbreviation right
> before
> >     an em
> >      >>>>             dash require theclass="eoc"attribute? E.g.:
> >      >>>>
> >      >>>>                 <p>"When it is said, <abbr
> >      >>>>                 class="eoc">etc.</abbr>"⁠—By Descartes.</p>
> >      >>>>
> >      >>>>
> >      >>>>             On Sat, Sep 3, 2022 at 3:26 PM Matt Chan
> >      >>>>             <thew...@gmail.com
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>>
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>
> >     <mailto:thew...@gmail.com <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>>>> wrote:
> >      >>>>
> >      >>>>                     Yep, and thanks for confirming.
> >      >>>>
> >      >>>>                     On Tue, Aug 23, 2022 at 9:55 PM
> Alex Cabal
> >      >>>>                     <al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>
> >      >>>>                     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>>> wrote:
> >      >>>>
> >      >>>>                         As in the Vulgate Bible?
> Neither, it's a
> >      >>>>                         holy book.
> >      >>>>
> >      >>>>                         On 8/23/22 8:40 PM, Matt Chan
> wrote:
> >      >>>>                         > Double-checking: Vulgate,
> which is the
> >      >>>>                         specific Latin translation of the
> >      >>>>                         > Christian Bible, is that word
> itself
> >      >>>>                         quoted/italicized etc.?
> >      >>>>                         >
> >      >>>>                         > On Tue, Aug 9, 2022 at 1:20
> PM Matt Chan
> >      >>>>                         <thew...@gmail.com
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>
> >     <mailto:thew...@gmail.com <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>>
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>
> >     <mailto:thew...@gmail.com <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>>>
> >      >>>>                         > <mailto:thew...@gmail.com
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>
> >     <mailto:thew...@gmail.com <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>>
> >      >>>>                         <mailto:thew...@gmail.com
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>
> >     <mailto:thew...@gmail.com <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>>>>> wrote:
> >      >>>>                         >
> >      >>>>                         >     Thanks Robin, I will do so.
> >      >>>>                         >
> >      >>>>                         >     On Tue, Aug 9, 2022 at
> 1:13 PM Robin
> >      >>>>                         Whittleton <ro...@reala.net
> <mailto:ro...@reala.net>
> >     <mailto:ro...@reala.net <mailto:ro...@reala.net>>
> >      >>>>                         <mailto:ro...@reala.net
> <mailto:ro...@reala.net>
> >     <mailto:ro...@reala.net <mailto:ro...@reala.net>>>
> >      >>>>                         >     <mailto:ro...@reala.net
> <mailto:ro...@reala.net>
> >     <mailto:ro...@reala.net <mailto:ro...@reala.net>>
> >      >>>>                         <mailto:ro...@reala.net
> <mailto:ro...@reala.net>
> >     <mailto:ro...@reala.net <mailto:ro...@reala.net>>>>> wrote:
> >      >>>>                         >
> >      >>>>                         >         I’d go <i
> >      >>>>
>  epub:type=“se…”><abbr>Ann.</abbr></i>
> >     . I’d
> >      >>>>                         suggest
> >      >>>>                         >         just leaving it as
> English here.
> >      >>>>                         >
> >      >>>>                         >         -Robin
> >      >>>>                         >
> >      >>>>                         >>         On 9 Aug 2022, at
> 02:47, Matt
> >      >>>>                         Chan <thew...@gmail.com
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>
> >     <mailto:thew...@gmail.com <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>>
> >      >>>>                         <mailto:thew...@gmail.com
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>
> >     <mailto:thew...@gmail.com <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>>>
> >      >>>>                         >>
> >     <mailto:thew...@gmail.com <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>>>>>>
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>>>><mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>
> >     <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>>
> >      >>>>
>  <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>
> >     <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>>>
> >      >>>>                         >>
> >      >>>>
>   <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>
> >     <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>>
> >      >>>>
>  <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>
> >     <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> >     <mailto:ro...@reala.net <mailto:ro...@reala.net>>>>>> wrote:
> >      >>>>                         >>                     >>>
> >      >>>>                         >>                     >>>
> >      >>>>                          Parentheses? Leave them as per the
> >      >>>>                         >>                     source, we
> >     don’t have any
> >      >>>>                         >>                     >>>
> >       rule here
> >      >>>>                         that I’m aware of.
> >      >>>>                         >>                     >>>
> >      >>>>                         >>                     >>>>
>      On
> >     5 Aug
> >      >>>>                         2022, at 23:45, Matt Chan
> >      >>>>                         >>
> >       <thew...@gmail.com <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>>
> >      >>>>                         <mailto:thew...@gmail.com
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>
> >     <mailto:thew...@gmail.com
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>>><mailto:thew...@gmail.com
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>
> >     <mailto:thew...@gmail.com <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>>
> >      >>>>                         <mailto:thew...@gmail.com
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>
> >     <mailto:thew...@gmail.com <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>>>>
> >      >>>>                         >>                     >>>>
> >      >>>>                          <mailto:thew...@gmail.com
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>
> >     <mailto:thew...@gmail.com <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>>
> >      >>>>                         <mailto:thew...@gmail.com
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>
> >     <mailto:thew...@gmail.com <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>>>
> >      >>>>                         >>
> >      >>>>                          <mailto:thew...@gmail.com
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>
> >     <mailto:thew...@gmail.com <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>>
> >      >>>>                         <mailto:thew...@gmail.com
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>
> >     <mailto:thew...@gmail.com <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>>>>>>
> >     <mailto:tostandardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:tostandardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:tostandardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:tostandardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>>>
> >      >>>>                         >>
> >      >>>>
> >        <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>>
> >      >>>>
> >       <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2525252Bu...@googlegroups.com>>>>
> >      >>>>                         >>                     >
> >      >>>>                         >>
> >      >>>>
> >         <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>
> >      >>>>
> >       <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>>>
> >      >>>>                         >>
> >      >>>>
> >        <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>>
> >      >>>>
> >       <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2525252Bu...@googlegroups.com>>>>>.
> >     <mailto:tostandardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:tostandardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:tostandardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:tostandardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>>>
> >      >>>>                         >>
> >      >>>>
> >        <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>>
> >      >>>>
> >       <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2525252Bu...@googlegroups.com>>>>
> >      >>>>                         >>                     >
> >      >>>>                         >>
> >      >>>>
> >        <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>
> >      >>>>
> >       <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>>><mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> >       <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2525252Bu...@googlegroups.com>>>>>.
> >     <mailto:tostandardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:tostandardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:tostandardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:tostandardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>>>
> >      >>>>                         >>
> >      >>>>
> >        <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>>
> >      >>>>
> >       <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2525252Bu...@googlegroups.com>>>>.
> >      >>>>                         >>                     To view this
> >      >>>>                         discussion on the web
> >      >>>>                         >>
> >      >>>>
> >
>   visithttps://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/555a25b7-7262-e540-0737-a973f9a4c16c%40standardebooks.org <http://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/555a25b7-7262-e540-0737-a973f9a4c16c%40standardebooks.org> <http://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/555a25b7-7262-e540-0737-a973f9a4c16c%40standardebooks.org <http://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/555a25b7-7262-e540-0737-a973f9a4c16c%40standardebooks.org>>
> >      >>>>
> >
>  <http://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/555a25b7-7262-e540-0737-a973f9a4c16c%40standardebooks.org <http://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/555a25b7-7262-e540-0737-a973f9a4c16c%40standardebooks.org> <http://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/555a25b7-7262-e540-0737-a973f9a4c16c%40standardebooks.org <http://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/555a25b7-7262-e540-0737-a973f9a4c16c%40standardebooks.org>>>
> >      >>>>                         >>
> >      >>>>
> >
>   <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/555a25b7-7262-e540-0737-a973f9a4c16c%40standardebooks.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/555a25b7-7262-e540-0737-a973f9a4c16c%40standardebooks.org> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/555a25b7-7262-e540-0737-a973f9a4c16c%40standardebooks.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/555a25b7-7262-e540-0737-a973f9a4c16c%40standardebooks.org>>
> >      >>>>
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/555a25b7-7262-e540-0737-a973f9a4c16c%40standardebooks.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/555a25b7-7262-e540-0737-a973f9a4c16c%40standardebooks.org> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/555a25b7-7262-e540-0737-a973f9a4c16c%40standardebooks.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/555a25b7-7262-e540-0737-a973f9a4c16c%40standardebooks.org>>>>.
> >      >>>>                         >>
> >      >>>>                         >>
> >      >>>>                         >>         --
> >      >>>>                         >>         You received this
> message
> >     because
> >      >>>>                         you are subscribed to the
> >      >>>>                         >>         Google Groups
> "Standard Ebooks"
> >      >>>>                         group.
> >      >>>>                         >>         To unsubscribe from
> this group
> >      >>>>                         and stop receiving emails from
> >      >>>>                         >>         it, send an email
> >      >>>>                         >>
> >      >>>> tostandardeboo...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:tostandardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:tostandardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:tostandardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>
> >     <mailto:tostandardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:tostandardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:tostandardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:tostandardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>>>
> >      >>>>                         >>
> >      >>>>
> >        <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>
> >      >>>>
> >       <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>>>>.
> >      >>>>                         >>         To view this
> discussion on
> >     the web
> >      >>>>                         >>
> >      >>>>
> >
>  <http://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTebuNSujAwj0_vZcdnob6yztgPrOZgrFt1y5syfVvz4LA%40mail.gmail.com <http://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTebuNSujAwj0_vZcdnob6yztgPrOZgrFt1y5syfVvz4LA%40mail.gmail.com> <http://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTebuNSujAwj0_vZcdnob6yztgPrOZgrFt1y5syfVvz4LA%40mail.gmail.com <http://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTebuNSujAwj0_vZcdnob6yztgPrOZgrFt1y5syfVvz4LA%40mail.gmail.com>>>
> >      >>>>                         >>
> >      >>>>
> >
>   <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTebuNSujAwj0_vZcdnob6yztgPrOZgrFt1y5syfVvz4LA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTebuNSujAwj0_vZcdnob6yztgPrOZgrFt1y5syfVvz4LA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTebuNSujAwj0_vZcdnob6yztgPrOZgrFt1y5syfVvz4LA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTebuNSujAwj0_vZcdnob6yztgPrOZgrFt1y5syfVvz4LA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>
> >      >>>>
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTebuNSujAwj0_vZcdnob6yztgPrOZgrFt1y5syfVvz4LA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTebuNSujAwj0_vZcdnob6yztgPrOZgrFt1y5syfVvz4LA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTebuNSujAwj0_vZcdnob6yztgPrOZgrFt1y5syfVvz4LA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTebuNSujAwj0_vZcdnob6yztgPrOZgrFt1y5syfVvz4LA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>>.
> >      >>>>                         >
> >      >>>>                         >         --
> >      >>>>                         >         You received this message
> >     because
> >      >>>>                         you are subscribed to the
> >      >>>>                         >         Google Groups "Standard
> >     Ebooks" group.
> >      >>>>                         >         To unsubscribe from this
> >     group and
> >      >>>>                         stop receiving emails from
> >      >>>>                         >         it, send an email
> >      >>>> tostandardeboo...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:tostandardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:tostandardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:tostandardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>>>
> >      >>>>                         >
> >      >>>>
> >        <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>
> >      >>>>
> >       <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>>>>.
> >      >>>>                         >         To view this
> discussion on
> >     the web
> >      >>>>                         visit
> >      >>>>                         >
> >      >>>>
> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/97858C99-3C76-4E85-AAC9-AF87537A2F66%40reala.net
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/97858C99-3C76-4E85-AAC9-AF87537A2F66%40reala.net>
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/97858C99-3C76-4E85-AAC9-AF87537A2F66%40reala.net <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/97858C99-3C76-4E85-AAC9-AF87537A2F66%40reala.net>>
> >      >>>>
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/97858C99-3C76-4E85-AAC9-AF87537A2F66%40reala.net <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/97858C99-3C76-4E85-AAC9-AF87537A2F66%40reala.net> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/97858C99-3C76-4E85-AAC9-AF87537A2F66%40reala.net <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/97858C99-3C76-4E85-AAC9-AF87537A2F66%40reala.net>>>
> >      >>>>                         >
> >      >>>>
> >
>   <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/97858C99-3C76-4E85-AAC9-AF87537A2F66%40reala.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/97858C99-3C76-4E85-AAC9-AF87537A2F66%40reala.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/97858C99-3C76-4E85-AAC9-AF87537A2F66%40reala.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/97858C99-3C76-4E85-AAC9-AF87537A2F66%40reala.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>
> >      >>>>
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/97858C99-3C76-4E85-AAC9-AF87537A2F66%40reala.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/97858C99-3C76-4E85-AAC9-AF87537A2F66%40reala.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/97858C99-3C76-4E85-AAC9-AF87537A2F66%40reala.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/97858C99-3C76-4E85-AAC9-AF87537A2F66%40reala.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>>.
> >      >>>>                         >
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> >     <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>>>
> >      >>>>                         >
> >      >>>>
> >       <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
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> >      >>>>
> >       <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
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>  >https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTemYq2QLUSfJC5pGBNo0yBwLbfzDfgKH8EBTfOO98oP%2Bg%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTemYq2QLUSfJC5pGBNo0yBwLbfzDfgKH8EBTfOO98oP%2Bg%40mail.gmail.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTemYq2QLUSfJC5pGBNo0yBwLbfzDfgKH8EBTfOO98oP%2Bg%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTemYq2QLUSfJC5pGBNo0yBwLbfzDfgKH8EBTfOO98oP%2Bg%40mail.gmail.com>>
> >      >>>>
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTemYq2QLUSfJC5pGBNo0yBwLbfzDfgKH8EBTfOO98oP%2Bg%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTemYq2QLUSfJC5pGBNo0yBwLbfzDfgKH8EBTfOO98oP%2Bg%40mail.gmail.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTemYq2QLUSfJC5pGBNo0yBwLbfzDfgKH8EBTfOO98oP%2Bg%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTemYq2QLUSfJC5pGBNo0yBwLbfzDfgKH8EBTfOO98oP%2Bg%40mail.gmail.com>>>
> >      >>>>                         >
> >      >>>>
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTemYq2QLUSfJC5pGBNo0yBwLbfzDfgKH8EBTfOO98oP%2Bg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTemYq2QLUSfJC5pGBNo0yBwLbfzDfgKH8EBTfOO98oP%2Bg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTemYq2QLUSfJC5pGBNo0yBwLbfzDfgKH8EBTfOO98oP%2Bg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTemYq2QLUSfJC5pGBNo0yBwLbfzDfgKH8EBTfOO98oP%2Bg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>
> >      >>>>
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTemYq2QLUSfJC5pGBNo0yBwLbfzDfgKH8EBTfOO98oP%2Bg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTemYq2QLUSfJC5pGBNo0yBwLbfzDfgKH8EBTfOO98oP%2Bg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTemYq2QLUSfJC5pGBNo0yBwLbfzDfgKH8EBTfOO98oP%2Bg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTemYq2QLUSfJC5pGBNo0yBwLbfzDfgKH8EBTfOO98oP%2Bg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>>.
> >      >>>>
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> >     <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
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>  visithttps://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/81fcc146-0c3f-900b-41bf-a64db14156c4%40standardebooks.org <http://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/81fcc146-0c3f-900b-41bf-a64db14156c4%40standardebooks.org> <http://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/81fcc146-0c3f-900b-41bf-a64db14156c4%40standardebooks.org <http://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/81fcc146-0c3f-900b-41bf-a64db14156c4%40standardebooks.org>>
> >      >>>>
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>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/81fcc146-0c3f-900b-41bf-a64db14156c4%40standardebooks.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/81fcc146-0c3f-900b-41bf-a64db14156c4%40standardebooks.org> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/81fcc146-0c3f-900b-41bf-a64db14156c4%40standardebooks.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/81fcc146-0c3f-900b-41bf-a64db14156c4%40standardebooks.org>>>.
> >      >>>>
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> <mailto:tostandardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>
> >      >>>>
> >       <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
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> >      >>>>
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTda1JkcD65Wv-ArOtZ8CNdP6yCrtjtv45Nfy6jM90GBbg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTda1JkcD65Wv-ArOtZ8CNdP6yCrtjtv45Nfy6jM90GBbg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTda1JkcD65Wv-ArOtZ8CNdP6yCrtjtv45Nfy6jM90GBbg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTda1JkcD65Wv-ArOtZ8CNdP6yCrtjtv45Nfy6jM90GBbg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>.
> >      >>>
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> >      >>>
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> >     <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
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> >      >>>
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> >      >>
> >      >>
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> >      >>
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> >      >>
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> >      >>
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> >      >>
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTcwa%3DEqw0%3DubuzvFbbMBap%3DkVRuKVzpTH_a1Vi1-mX00Q%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTcwa%3DEqw0%3DubuzvFbbMBap%3DkVRuKVzpTH_a1Vi1-mX00Q%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTcwa%3DEqw0%3DubuzvFbbMBap%3DkVRuKVzpTH_a1Vi1-mX00Q%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTcwa%3DEqw0%3DubuzvFbbMBap%3DkVRuKVzpTH_a1Vi1-mX00Q%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>.
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Matt Chan

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Sep 6, 2022, 5:34:33 PM9/6/22
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Alex, thanks for this. I'm just trying to reconcile this with the manual and information I gather from others in the thread, and in order to reduce work for you and the reviewer in the future, I just want to make sure I understand correctly.

The manual says:
7.10.5.3

Endnotes with ending citations have those citations wrapped in a <cite> element, including any em dashes. A space follows the <cite> element, before the backlink.

The ensuing example gives one situation where there is text in the endnote before the actual source itself, so the <cite> tages surrounds the em dash and closes after the period. So my questions I think is partially answered here, is that for this example:

<p>"Corneille."⁠—See his <i epub:type="se:name.publication.play">Horace</i>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">II</span>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">III</span>. <a href="section-7.xhtml#noteref-202" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>
 
The correct rendering would be:

<p>"Corneille."—See his <cite><i epub:type="se:name.publication.play">Horace</i>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">II</span>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">III</span></cite>. <a href="section-7.xhtml#noteref-202" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>

Would this be correct? I just want to make sure I understand here because I've been told some different things earlier. 

In the manual:

8.17.2

Citations that are the source of a quote are preceded by a space and an em dash, within the <cite> element.

Should we add the em dash if it is not present in the original book? As an editorial commit? In the manual the space is a regular space, but typogrify would add a word joiner here instead (because of the em dash), at least, it did for me. Should the space replace the word joiner, precede it, or succeed it? I'm asking this because the manual concerning citation did not mention word joiner, but the part about em dashes did, and did not mention an exception for citation so I wanted to make sure.

Another case that seems confusing to me:

<p>"Saint Paul."⁠—Galatians 4:24; 1 Corinthians 3:16–17; Hebrews 9:24; Romans 2:28–29. <a href="section-10.xhtml#noteref-252" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>

Here, "Saint Paul" is a quote in text proper, but after checking all the Bible verses to be sure, they are not the source of the quote "Saint Paul" (which make sense, Paul was not canonized until much much later in history), but rather they are the conceptual references for "Saint Paul" here. So following this logic, they are not the "source of a quote" in 8.17.2, but they are "citations" nonetheless, correct? A citation can be a reference but not necessarily a direct quote, correct? So in these cases are there 4 separate <cite> elements for each section of Bible verses cited? Robin suggested so, but I wanted to double check with you all because it's not mentioned in the manual (apologies if it was, I tried to peruse thoroughly.)

A more confusing case:

<p>"The six ages, <abbr class="eoc">etc.</abbr>"⁠—<abbr>M.</abbr> Havet has traced this to a chapter in <abbr>St.</abbr> Augustine, <i epub:type="se:name.publication.book" xml:Lang="la">De Genesi contra Manichæos</i>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">I</span>, 23. <a href="section-10.xhtml#noteref-242" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>

In this case, "The six ages, etc." is a quote from De Genesi contra Manichaeos, but it is unclear from 8.17.2 how I should treat this. Should there be an em dash? If so, where? The original transcription has an em dash before M. Havet, but he is not the source of the quote, but rather St. Augustine is. In cases like this, is an exception made to 8.17.2 so that there isn't a em dash within the <cite> element? I.e.:

<p>"The six ages, <abbr class="eoc">etc.</abbr>"⁠—<abbr>M.</abbr> Havet has traced this to a chapter in <cite><abbr>St.</abbr> Augustine, <i epub:type="se:name.publication.book" xml:Lang="la">De Genesi contra Manichæos</i>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">I</span>, 23</cite>. <a href="section-10.xhtml#noteref-242" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>

This may or may not be obvious, but again, I wanted to nail this down to save work for others down the road.

Finally, a question about periods. In the manual, implicitly I can see that periods are left out out <cite> elements unless they are part of the abbreviated name of the author being cited. This isn't explicitly stated in the manual, but given the confusion I had earlier with what belongs inside or outside of a <cite> element (see my previous confusions about chapter numbers etc.) I wanted to double check this for future reference.

Thanks again for the attention!

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Robin Whittleton

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Sep 8, 2022, 2:35:46 AM9/8/22
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Sorry for the delayed response, other commitments got in the way of SE for a few days.

On 6 Sep 2022, at 23:34, Matt Chan <thew...@gmail.com> wrote:

The manual says:
7.10.5.3

Endnotes with ending citations have those citations wrapped in a <cite> element, including any em dashes. A space follows the <cite> element, before the backlink.

The ensuing example gives one situation where there is text in the endnote before the actual source itself, so the <cite> tages surrounds the em dash and closes after the period. So my questions I think is partially answered here, is that for this example:

<p>"Corneille."⁠—See his <i epub:type="se:name.publication.play">Horace</i>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">II</span>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">III</span>. <a href="section-7.xhtml#noteref-202" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>
 
The correct rendering would be:

<p>"Corneille."—See his <cite><i epub:type="se:name.publication.play">Horace</i>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">II</span>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">III</span></cite>. <a href="section-7.xhtml#noteref-202" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>

Would this be correct? I just want to make sure I understand here because I've been told some different things earlier. 

As I suggested earlier in the thread, I think the ”See his” could be excised here in an [Editorial] commit, and replaced with a standard em dash. That would make this a normal citation.

In the manual:

8.17.2

Citations that are the source of a quote are preceded by a space and an em dash, within the <cite> element.

Should we add the em dash if it is not present in the original book? As an editorial commit? In the manual the space is a regular space, but typogrify would add a word joiner here instead (because of the em dash), at least, it did for me. Should the space replace the word joiner, precede it, or succeed it? I'm asking this because the manual concerning citation did not mention word joiner, but the part about em dashes did, and did not mention an exception for citation so I wanted to make sure.

Yes, I would add the em dash, again as an [Editorial] commit. After that, follow what typogrify does.

Another case that seems confusing to me:

<p>"Saint Paul."⁠—Galatians 4:24; 1 Corinthians 3:16–17; Hebrews 9:24; Romans 2:28–29. <a href="section-10.xhtml#noteref-252" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>

Here, "Saint Paul" is a quote in text proper, but after checking all the Bible verses to be sure, they are not the source of the quote "Saint Paul" (which make sense, Paul was not canonized until much much later in history), but rather they are the conceptual references for "Saint Paul" here. So following this logic, they are not the "source of a quote" in 8.17.2, but they are "citations" nonetheless, correct? A citation can be a reference but not necessarily a direct quote, correct? So in these cases are there 4 separate <cite> elements for each section of Bible verses cited? Robin suggested so, but I wanted to double check with you all because it's not mentioned in the manual (apologies if it was, I tried to peruse thoroughly.)

We don’t have a rule that I’m aware of for multiple citations. Perhaps we should? Either way, there’s no requirement that the associated quote is a direct quotation from the work. And I think multiple cite elements are fine here if they render OK. If they cause problems with our linter or turn out not to be a good idea for other reasons it’s easy to find and fix later on.

A more confusing case:

<p>"The six ages, <abbr class="eoc">etc.</abbr>"⁠—<abbr>M.</abbr> Havet has traced this to a chapter in <abbr>St.</abbr> Augustine, <i epub:type="se:name.publication.book" xml:Lang="la">De Genesi contra Manichæos</i>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">I</span>, 23. <a href="section-10.xhtml#noteref-242" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>

In this case, "The six ages, etc." is a quote from De Genesi contra Manichaeos, but it is unclear from 8.17.2 how I should treat this. Should there be an em dash? If so, where? The original transcription has an em dash before M. Havet, but he is not the source of the quote, but rather St. Augustine is. In cases like this, is an exception made to 8.17.2 so that there isn't a em dash within the <cite> element? I.e.:

<p>"The six ages, <abbr class="eoc">etc.</abbr>"⁠—<abbr>M.</abbr> Havet has traced this to a chapter in <cite><abbr>St.</abbr> Augustine, <i epub:type="se:name.publication.book" xml:Lang="la">De Genesi contra Manichæos</i>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">I</span>, 23</cite>. <a href="section-10.xhtml#noteref-242" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>

This may or may not be obvious, but again, I wanted to nail this down to save work for others down the road.

Again, no rule for this. All the text has meaning so we can’t excise any of it. Your proposed example feels reasonable to me.

Finally, a question about periods. In the manual, implicitly I can see that periods are left out out <cite> elements unless they are part of the abbreviated name of the author being cited. This isn't explicitly stated in the manual, but given the confusion I had earlier with what belongs inside or outside of a <cite> element (see my previous confusions about chapter numbers etc.) I wanted to double check this for future reference.

A full stop finishes a sentence; a short cite typically isn’t a sentence. Some of your examples above are long enough to be considered a sentence, and then you’re going to have to use your best judgement to decide whether a full stop is needed. But in general I’d suggest that the default is to not include them.

Hope this helps. As Alex suggested, a lot of this is going to have to be you figuring out the best way through a complex production where the answers aren’t always known.

-Robin

Matt Chan

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Sep 8, 2022, 10:38:41 AM9/8/22
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Thanks so much Robin, this is very helpful. I know these incessant questions are too much so I do apologize. Part of it is that I don't have a good handle on what the established standards are yet and after reading through the manual and some examples on the github I was able to form a consistent principle in my head. I think moving forward I will be able to begin to understand more about <cite> given all these variations and the questions for this topic from me should stop. Again, apologies to everyone and thanks again for all the help.

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Robin Whittleton

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Sep 8, 2022, 10:57:56 AM9/8/22
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No problem, and yes looking through other productions is an excellent way to gauge existing approaches. If you haven’t tried it already I recommend signing up for the beta of https://cs.github.com which does an excellent job at searching our corpus.

-Robin

On 8 Sep 2022, at 16:38, Matt Chan <thew...@gmail.com> wrote:



Matt Chan

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Sep 8, 2022, 11:35:50 AM9/8/22
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Great tip, Robin, thanks! I hopped on the waiting list.

Matt Chan

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Nov 17, 2022, 5:46:25 PM11/17/22
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Robin and David, just wanted to pop to say that work has been absolutely crazy this past few months and IRL stuff also has been a lot and I've not been able to find time work on this; but I fully intend on getting this production done in the upcoming weeks given I'll have some time during the holidays. Thanks again.

Robin Whittleton

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Nov 19, 2022, 4:54:21 AM11/19/22
to Standard Ebooks
Zero problems of course. Hope things calm down a bit for you.

Matt Chan

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Aug 15, 2023, 12:49:54 PM8/15/23
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Hi Robin and David and others on SE; very sorry for being MIA for so long; work has finally calmed down a bit and it's eating away at me that I let this lapse for so long. I feel much has changed on SE (Manual and Tooslet) that it's probably best if I restart from scratch, which I'm okay with. It's a pretty short book but just a little complex due to its structure. Is that okay?

Matt

Alex Cabal

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Aug 15, 2023, 12:50:44 PM8/15/23
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OK!

On 8/15/23 11:49 AM, Matt Chan wrote:
> Hi Robin and David and others on SE; very sorry for being MIA for so
> long; work has finally calmed down a bit and it's eating away at me that
> I let this lapse for so long. I feel much has changed on SE (Manual and
> Tooslet) that it's probably best if I restart from scratch, which I'm
> okay with. It's a pretty short book but just a little complex due to its
> structure. Is that okay?
>
> Matt
>
> On Sat, Nov 19, 2022 at 4:54 AM Robin Whittleton <ro...@reala.net
> <mailto:ro...@reala.net>> wrote:
>
> Zero problems of course. Hope things calm down a bit for you.
>
>> On 17 Nov 2022, at 23:46, Matt Chan <thew...@gmail.com
>> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Robin and David, just wanted to pop to say that work has been
>> absolutely crazy this past few months and IRL stuff also has been
>> a lot and I've not been able to find time work on this; but I
>> fully intend on getting this production done in the upcoming weeks
>> given I'll have some time during the holidays. Thanks again.
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 8, 2022 at 11:35 AM Matt Chan <thew...@gmail.com
>> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Great tip, Robin, thanks! I hopped on the waiting list.
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 8, 2022 at 10:57 AM Robin Whittleton
>> <ro...@reala.net <mailto:ro...@reala.net>> wrote:
>>
>> No problem, and yes looking through other productions is
>> an excellent way to gauge existing approaches. If you
>> haven’t tried it already I recommend signing up for the
>> beta ofhttps://cs.github.com <https://cs.github.com/>which
>> does an excellent job at searching our corpus.
>>
>> -Robin
>>
>>> On 8 Sep 2022, at 16:38, Matt Chan <thew...@gmail.com
>>> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>> Thanks so much Robin, this is very helpful. I know these
>>> incessant questions are too much so I do apologize. Part
>>> of it is that I don't have a good handle on what the
>>> established standards are yet and after reading through
>>> the manual and some examples on the github I was able to
>>> form a consistent principle in my head. I think moving
>>> forward I will be able to begin to understand more about
>>> <cite> given all these variations and the questions for
>>> this topic from me should stop. Again, apologies to
>>> everyone and thanks again for all the help.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 8, 2022 at 2:35 AM Robin Whittleton
>>> <ro...@reala.net <mailto:ro...@reala.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Sorry for the delayed response, other commitments got
>>> in the way of SE for a few days.
>>>
>>>> On 6 Sep 2022, at 23:34, Matt Chan
>>>> from/De Genesi contra Manichaeos,/but it is unclear
>>> tostandardeboo...@googlegroups.com
>>> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.
>>> To view this discussion on the web
>>> visithttps://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/FC558867-71DD-48E9-98D9-DE7384A4BB07%40reala.net <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/FC558867-71DD-48E9-98D9-DE7384A4BB07%40reala.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
>>>
>>>
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