[Next project] Waverley, by Walter Scott

[Hendrik Kaiber]

My current project will likely be published soon, and I would like to start a new one, Waverley, by Walter Scott. It's a somewhat complex project, with a glossary and footnotes, but nothing I haven't encountered before.

The edition I would use has two volumes; this seems like a  practical choice, since other editions have different numbers of volumes, so I would format this edition in one part, renaming the chapters of volume 2 to continue from volume 1.

There are two glossaries, one for each volume, with many of the entries being duplicate, I believe I should merge them into one.

There are also some frontmatter sections, some of which I think should be removed, like some chapters of other novels. Which ones do you think should remain? I think "Introduction" and "Preface to the third edition" would be interesting, at least.

For the cover, I would like to use Disbanded, which appears as an illustration in this edition of the novel (​PD proof​). Is this a good choice?

Transcription: PG

​Scans: Vol. 1 | Vol. 2

[Vince Rice]

Even the editions in a single printed volume maintain the two internal volume with chapter numbers starting over, so I don’t see any reason to get rid of that. That type of structure exists all over the corpus.

[Alex Cabal]

OK, sure. I agree with Vince, if the chapter numbers start over in the
next volume then they were probably meant to be that way. Please send a
link to your repo and we can assign a manager and reviewer.

On 6/11/25 6:48 PM, Hendrik Kaiber wrote:
> My current project will likely be published soon, and I would like to

> start a new one, /Waverley/, by Walter Scott. It's a somewhat complex

> project, with a glossary and footnotes, but nothing I haven't
> encountered before.
>
> The edition I would use has two volumes; this seems like a  practical
> choice, since other editions have different numbers of volumes, so I
> would format this edition in one part, renaming the chapters of volume 2
> to continue from volume 1.
>
> There are two glossaries, one for each volume, with many of the entries
> being duplicate, I believe I should merge them into one.
>
> There are also some frontmatter sections, some of which I think should
> be removed, like some chapters of other novels. Which ones do you think
> should remain? I think "Introduction" and "Preface to the third edition"
> would be interesting, at least.
>

> For the cover, I would like to use Disbanded <https://pt.wikipedia.org/
> wiki/Waverley_%28romance%29#/media/Ficheiro:Disbanded.jpg>, which

> appears as an illustration in this edition of the novel (​PD proof

> <https://archive.org/details/johnpettiesixtee00pettuoft/page/n37/
> mode/2up>​). Is this a good choice?
>
> Transcription: PG <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/5998>
> ​Scans: Vol. 1 <https://archive.org/details/
> waverleynovels011893scotuoft/page/n7/mode/2up> | Vol. 2 <https://
> archive.org/details/waverleynovelswi02scotuoft/page/n9/mode/2up>
>
> --
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[Hendrik Kaiber]

Here's my repo. What sections of the frontmatter do you think I should keep?

--Hendrik

[Alex Cabal]

OK, Robin will manage this with David reviewing. Robin can you look at
the frontmatter/

On 6/12/25 2:43 PM, Hendrik Kaiber wrote:
> Here's <https://github.com/HendrikBK/walter-scott_waverley> my repo.

> pt.wikipedia.org/ <https://pt.wikipedia.org/>

> > wiki/Waverley_%28romance%29#/media/Ficheiro:Disbanded.jpg>, which
> > appears as an illustration in this edition of the novel (​PD proof
> > <https://archive.org/details/johnpettiesixtee00pettuoft/page/n37/
> <https://archive.org/details/johnpettiesixtee00pettuoft/page/n37/>
> > mode/2up>​). Is this a good choice?
> >
> > Transcription: PG <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/5998
> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/5998>>

> > ​Scans: Vol. 1 <https://archive.org/details/ <https://
> archive.org/details/>

> > waverleynovels011893scotuoft/page/n7/mode/2up> | Vol. 2 <https://
> > archive.org/details/waverleynovelswi02scotuoft/page/n9/mode/2up

> <http://archive.org/details/waverleynovelswi02scotuoft/page/n9/

> mode/2up>>
> >
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[Robin Whittleton]

Certainly can.

No problem merging the glossaries, but as suggested keep the two volume structure.

For the frontmatter I’d keep the dedication. We can, I think, drop the Editor‘s Note, Advertisement, General Preface and Appendix (I’m confused as to the point of that honestly). Potentially the Editor’s Introduction might be worth keeping? And agreed on the Introduction and Preface to the Third Edition.

-Robin

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[Hendrik Kaiber]

I started cleaning the files and applying some basic formatting. Do you think the cover is a good fit or should I search for another one?

--Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

Sorry, missed the cover request. Yes, that’s fine, I’ll add it to the artworks DB and assign it to this project.

-Robin

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[Hendrik Kaiber]

I have two questions, which I don't believe I encountered before:

1- Both volumes have some notes. They are not technically endnotes since each of the references is has a footnote; however, this footnotes are merely referencing a specific endnote . For instance, page 47 has a note that reads "Note I.—Titus Livius." Note I, in turn, would be the the one in page 285. Should I remove the footnotes ("Note I.—Titus Livius.") and simply add the endnote to the file, or should I treat them in a specific way?

2- There are both author and editor notes; should I possibly add something to the editor's notes to denote their difference, if the editor's notes are actually referenced in our edition's materials? Or just treat them all as endnotes, regardless of who made them? If the former, maybe add <cite>Andrew Lang</cite> or <cite>Editor</cite> in a editorial commit?

--Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

1. That’s a new one to me, but I don’t think there’s any point in keeping the footnote or the header to the endnote, which seems to be just a reference marker for the footnote. I’d remove them both and convert it to a standard endnote. So for your example, an endnote reference in the text that points to an endnote that starts “The attachment to this…”

2. Yes, exactly, though typically I’ve used abbreviations (e.g. A. L. instead of Andrew Lang). Here’s the guideline on cites: https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.8.2/single-page#7.10.5.3. If the bulk of the endnotes come from one source then you only need to cite the additional ones.

-Robin

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[David]

I'm watching this project progress with interest — I lost steam on Scott's Heart of Midlothian about a year ago. It seemed so complex and time-consuming, and (inspired by one or two others drawing a line on projects that had become too onerous) I simply stopped work on this one.

But I just took a look at my local repo, and lint actually wasn't making as many complaints as I remembered. (Of course the toolset has been updated since then, but not too difficult to update to current spec.) I've pushed everything to Github ... and maybe (just maybe!) I'll return to this. But if anyone wants to take a look (even to say: "Don't bother!), please feel free.

David / Fife, UK

[Hendrik Kaiber]

I'm finished converting the footnotes to endnotes (the PG edition is very inconsistent, with some notes as footnotes and other as endnotes). The Editor's notes, however are absent from this edition, so I would need to transcribe them. I can do it, but would like to know if we actually want them, so that any work I put into them is not wasted.

There are some in vol. I and more in vol. II.

What do you think?

--Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

I’ve done this in the past (adding Ed. cites to the end of each note) and adding them in to the rest of the notes. Like you said it’ll require transcription, but as it’s <10 pages total I think it’s worth it? Having a quick read through it looks like they add value to the text.

-Robin

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[Alex Cabal]

The more important question is whether the notes are interesting. If
they're not then it's fine to drop them, it's just the thoughts of the
editor of this particular edition.

On 6/23/25 2:01 PM, Robin Whittleton wrote:
> I’ve done this in the past (adding /Ed./ cites to the end of each note)

> and adding them in to the rest of the notes. Like you said it’ll require
> transcription, but as it’s <10 pages total I think it’s worth it? Having
> a quick read through it looks like they add value to the text.
>
> -Robin
>
>> On 23 Jun 2025, at 19:56, Hendrik Kaiber <hendrik....@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I'm finished converting the footnotes to endnotes (the PG edition is
>> very inconsistent, with some notes as footnotes and other as
>> endnotes). The Editor's notes, however are absent from this edition,
>> so I would need to transcribe them. I can do it, but would like to
>> know if we actually want them, so that any work I put into them is not
>> wasted.
>>

>> There are some in vol. I <https://archive.org/details/
>> waverleynovels011893scotuoft/page/294/mode/2up> and more in vol. II
>> <https://archive.org/details/waverleynovelswi02scotuoft/page/n423/
>> mode/2up?q=%22mansion%22>.

>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> --Hendrik
>> Em quarta-feira, 18 de junho de 2025 às 05:52:21 UTC-3, David escreveu:
>>
>> I'm watching this project progress with interest — I lost steam on

>> Scott's Heart of Midlothian <https://groups.google.com/g/
>> standardebooks/c/NYVg-IRtTeA/m/THRRaqDJCQAJ> about a year ago. It

>> seemed so complex and time-consuming, and (inspired by one or two
>> others drawing a line on projects that had become too onerous) I
>> simply stopped work on this one.
>>
>> But I just took a look at my local repo, and lint actually wasn't
>> making as many complaints as I remembered. (Of course the toolset
>> has been updated since then, but not too difficult to update to
>> current spec.) I've pushed everything to Github ... and maybe
>> (just maybe!) I'll return to this. But if anyone wants to take a

>> look <https://github.com/dajare/walter-scott_the-heart-of-
>> midlothian> (even to say: "Don't bother!), please feel free.

>>
>> David / Fife, UK
>>
>>
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[Hendrik Kaiber]

I personally think most of them are interesting, and give context to some passages, so I would keep them.

--Hendrik

[Hendrik Kaiber]

I added the editor's notes, and think I didn't make any mistakes in ordering of the notes.

Robin, can you take a look at the latest commits and see if there are any major mistakes (starting at commit 24a56ad)? It is the first time I had to deal with this specific issue, and I think it would be better to fix it earlier if any considerable mistakes were made. I'm not sure I added the Editor's <cite> elements correctly.

--Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

Looks good, with the exception of notes 15, 42, and 73, where you’ve included the backlink inside the cite by accident.

-Robin

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[Hendrik Kaiber]

I put there on purpose actually. I wasn't sure where is the best place in that situation. Should I put immediately outside the <cite> element?

--Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

Oh, OK, I see what you’ve done. So instead of finishing the note with a cite containing the backlink, finish with a p that contains the cite and the backlink.

-Robin

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[Hendrik Kaiber]

Two more questions:

1 - How should I properly format the preface (page 12)? Currently "To the King's Most Gracius Majesty" is in a <h2> element, but this seems wrong. Should it maybe be the <header> of a <blockquote>?

2 - The glossary has a few words that seem to have become common since the publication of the novel (cove, claymore, cantrip. etc). Should they be removed or kept?

--Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

1. Feels like a dedication rather than a preface, so the h2 makes sense in that context. The rest can be formatted as a letter.

2. I’d leave them in. Anything else would be a judgement call, and the meaning may have shifted slightly in common understanding since the publication anyway.

-Robin

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[Hendrik Kaiber]

Sure, that makes sense. Another question: I'm formatting some blockquotes and tweak others, and a couple of letters have a part of the footer centered (like "Yours, deer Sur," at page 178). Do you think I should try to keep the formatting present in the scans or ignore it, and just use the appropriate style and semantics of the Manual?

--Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

I think that’s more of an extreme indentation from the right rather than centring, but regardless I’d not bother trying to copy that unless you think it’s necessary (i.e. it’s referred to in the book).

-Robin

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[Hendrik Kaiber]

I forgot to ask, but do you think that 'Tis Sixty Years Since should be the subtitle?

--Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

You should keep the “Or,” as well. See Moby Dick for how to do it:

https://github.com/standardebooks/herman-melville_moby-dick/blob/master/src/epub/content.opf#L34-L39

https://github.com/standardebooks/herman-melville_moby-dick/blob/master/src/epub/text/halftitlepage.xhtml

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[Hendrik Kaiber]

There is an epigraph in the part 1page (page 91). Should it be its own file? If so, where do you think is the appropriate place to put it? Before the half titlepage?

--Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

Yep. It can live in an epigraph.xhtml directly before the halftitlepage. Info on epigraphs at https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.8.3/single-page#7.4 (and note 7.4.6 for full-page epigraphs).

See A Pair of Blue Eyes for an example: https://github.com/standardebooks/thomas-hardy_a-pair-of-blue-eyes/blob/master/src/epub/text/epigraph.xhtml

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[Hendrik Kaiber]

There are a few instances of words being spelled in one way at the glossary, and another in the text (bang-up/bang up;beflumm'd/beflummed for instance). In this case which spelling do you think should have precedence? I think the one in the text, but would like to confirm.

--Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

You can add multiple spellings and inflections to the glossary-search-key-map. For example, https://github.com/standardebooks/samuel-butler-1612-1680_hudibras/blob/master/src/epub/glossary-search-key-map.xml#L72-L75 and https://github.com/standardebooks/samuel-butler-1612-1680_hudibras/blob/master/src/epub/text/glossary.xhtml#L144-L149

-Robin

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[Hendrik Kaiber]

I understand that (I actually added a few variants already), but some of the entries have only one instance in the text, and simply adding as a variant will make the glossary entry appear different than the text occurrence. I'm asking if the glossary itself (not the key map file) should be harmonized with the text (maybe I'm not explaining properly).

--Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

Right, got it. Personally, I think that it’s best to keep it the same as the source text. I don’t think people will be directly consulting the glossary during a read of the main text without using the key map.

-Robin

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[Alex Cabal]

You should normalize the spellings, use whichever version appears more
frequently.

On 7/24/25 2:36 PM, Hendrik Kaiber wrote:
> I understand that (I actually added a few variants already), but some of
> the entries have only one instance in the text, and simply adding as a
> variant will make the glossary entry appear different than the text
> occurrence. I'm asking if the glossary itself (not the key map file)
> should be harmonized with the text (maybe I'm not explaining properly).
>
> --Hendrik
> On Thursday, July 24, 2025 at 4:14:05 PM UTC-3 robin wrote:
>
> You can add multiple spellings and inflections to the glossary-
> search-key-map. For example, https://github.com/standardebooks/
> samuel-butler-1612-1680_hudibras/blob/master/src/epub/glossary-

> search-key-map.xml#L72-L75 <https://github.com/standardebooks/
> samuel-butler-1612-1680_hudibras/blob/master/src/epub/glossary-
> search-key-map.xml#L72-L75> and https://github.com/standardebooks/
> samuel-butler-1612-1680_hudibras/blob/master/src/epub/text/
> glossary.xhtml#L144-L149 <https://github.com/standardebooks/samuel-
> butler-1612-1680_hudibras/blob/master/src/epub/text/
> glossary.xhtml#L144-L149>

>
> -Robin
>
>> On 24 Jul 2025, at 01:26, Hendrik Kaiber <hendrik....@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> There are a few instances of words being spelled in one way at the
>> glossary, and another in the text (bang-up/bang up;beflumm'd/
>> beflummed for instance). In this case which spelling do you think
>> should have precedence? I think the one in the text, but would
>> like to confirm.
>>
>> --Hendrik
>> On Monday, July 21, 2025 at 3:40:15 PM UTC-3 robin wrote:
>>
>> Yep. It can live in an epigraph.xhtml directly before the
>> halftitlepage. Info on epigraphs at https://

>> standardebooks.org/manual/1.8.3/single-page#7.4 <https://
>> standardebooks.org/manual/1.8.3/single-page#7.4> (and note
>> 7.4.6 for full-page epigraphs).
>>
>> See /A Pair of Blue Eyes/ for an example: https://github.com/
>> standardebooks/thomas-hardy_a-pair-of-blue-eyes/blob/master/
>> src/epub/text/epigraph.xhtml <https://github.com/
>> standardebooks/thomas-hardy_a-pair-of-blue-eyes/blob/master/
>> src/epub/text/epigraph.xhtml>

>>
>>> On 21 Jul 2025, at 18:18, Hendrik Kaiber
>>> <hendrik....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>

>>> There is an epigraph in the part 1page (page 91 <https://
>>> archive.org/details/waverleynovels011893scotuoft/page/n89/
>>> mode/2up>). Should it be its own file? If so, where do you

>>> think is the appropriate place to put it? Before the half
>>> titlepage?
>>>
>>> --Hendrik
>>> On Friday, July 18, 2025 at 3:22:03 AM UTC-3 robin wrote:
>>>
>>> You should keep the “Or,” as well. See Moby Dick for how
>>> to do it:
>>>
>>> https://github.com/standardebooks/herman-melville_moby-
>>> dick/blob/master/src/epub/content.opf#L34-L39 <https://
>>> github.com/standardebooks/herman-melville_moby-dick/blob/

>>> master/src/epub/content.opf#L34-L39>
>>>
>>> https://github.com/standardebooks/herman-melville_moby-
>>> dick/blob/master/src/epub/text/halftitlepage.xhtml
>>> <https://github.com/standardebooks/herman-melville_moby-
>>> dick/blob/master/src/epub/text/halftitlepage.xhtml>

>>>
>>>> On 18 Jul 2025, at 00:24, Hendrik Kaiber
>>>> <hendrik....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>

>>>> I forgot to ask, but do you think that /'Tis Sixty Years
>>>> Since /should be the subtitle?

>>>>
>>>> --Hendrik
>>>> Em segunda-feira, 14 de julho de 2025 às 03:00:04 UTC-3,
>>>> robin escreveu:
>>>>
>>>> I think that’s more of an extreme indentation from
>>>> the right rather than centring, but regardless I’d
>>>> not bother trying to copy that unless you think it’s
>>>> necessary (i.e. it’s referred to in the book).
>>>>
>>>> -Robin
>>>>
>>>>> On 13 Jul 2025, at 20:35, Hendrik Kaiber
>>>>> <hendrik....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Sure, that makes sense. Another question: I'm
>>>>> formatting some blockquotes and tweak others, and a
>>>>> couple of letters have a part of the footer
>>>>> centered (like "Yours, deer Sur," at page 178

>>>>> <https://archive.org/details/
>>>>> waverleynovelswi02scotuoft/page/n205/mode/2up>). Do

>>>>> you think I should try to keep the formatting
>>>>> present in the scans or ignore it, and just use the
>>>>> appropriate style and semantics of the Manual?
>>>>>
>>>>> --Hendrik
>>>>> Em domingo, 13 de julho de 2025 às 13:59:56 UTC-3,
>>>>> robin escreveu:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Feels like a dedication rather than a
>>>>> preface, so the h2 makes sense in that context.
>>>>> The rest can be formatted as a letter.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. I’d leave them in. Anything else would be a
>>>>> judgement call, and the meaning may have
>>>>> shifted slightly in common understanding since
>>>>> the publication anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Robin
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 13 Jul 2025, at 18:15, Hendrik Kaiber
>>>>>> <hendrik....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Two more questions:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1 - How should I properly format the preface

>>>>>> (page 12 <https://archive.org/details/
>>>>>> waverleynovels011893scotuoft/page/n11/
>>>>>> mode/2up>)? Currently "To the King's Most

>>>>>>>> commit 24a56ad <https://github.com/
>>>>>>>> HendrikBK/walter-scott_waverley/
>>>>>>>> commit/24a56ad249254aa0b143931c91f1b1e2013041a7>)? It is the first time I had to deal with this specific issue, and I think it would be better to fix it earlier if any considerable mistakes were made. I'm not sure I added the Editor's <cite> elements correctly.

>>>>>>>> details/ <https://
>>>>>>>> archive.org/details/>

>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> waverleynovels011893scotuoft/page/294/mode/2up> and more in vol. II
>>>>>>>> >> <https://archive.org/
>>>>>>>> details/
>>>>>>>> waverleynovelswi02scotuoft/

>>>>>>>> page/n423/ <https://
>>>>>>>> archive.org/details/
>>>>>>>> waverleynovelswi02scotuoft/
>>>>>>>> page/n423/>

>>>>>>>> >> mode/2up?q=%22mansion%22>.
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> What do you think?
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> --Hendrik
>>>>>>>> >> Em quarta-feira, 18 de
>>>>>>>> junho de 2025 às 05:52:21
>>>>>>>> UTC-3, David escreveu:
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> I'm watching this project
>>>>>>>> progress with interest — I
>>>>>>>> lost steam on
>>>>>>>> >> Scott's Heart of
>>>>>>>> Midlothian <https://
>>>>>>>> groups.google.com/g/

>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/>
>>>>>>>> >> standardebooks/c/NYVg-

>>>>>>>> heart-of- <https://
>>>>>>>> github.com/dajare/walter-
>>>>>>>> scott_the-heart-of->

>>>>>>>> >> midlothian> (even to say:
>>>>>>>> "Don't bother!), please feel
>>>>>>>> free.
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> David / Fife, UK
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> --
>>>>>>>> >> You received this message
>>>>>>>> because you are subscribed
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>>>>>>>> group.
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[Hendrik Kaiber]

Just to give a an update: I'm slowing proofreading the book, marking anything that stands out in need of formatting (there are quite a lot of publication titles!)

One question: There is several passages which are either in Scots or vernacular English from Scotland (I can't really tell the difference). How should I structure them? Should I use <i> with language semantics? This there might be too many passages, so <span> elements might be more appropriate. Since I can't easily tell the difference. Here's an example from chapter XIV (vol. 2): 

“And will ye face thae tearing chields, the dragoons, Ensign Maccombich?” again inquired the landlady.

--Hendrik 

[Robin Whittleton]

Personally I wouldn’t italicise them. There’s still an ongoing argument as to whether Scots is a vernacular, dialect or separate language. But from a purely visual level I think it’d distract from the flow of the novel, and the language is typically “gettable” from context if you only speak English. 

-Robin

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/a5a7afc2-50cd-47d1-a2d5-0a04ce21daefn%40googlegroups.com.

[Hendrik Kaiber]

​After a long while, I think this book is almost ready for a review. I would like guidance on a few topics before it is available for review.

- There is an instance of The Gipsies Metamorphosed  in the text, which Wikipedia lists as a masque, should it receive any kind of semantics? I'm not sure.

- Tales of My Landlord is mentioned, which is a subset of the Waverley novels. Should it receive any semantics? I don't think it should, but would rather confirm it.

- There are some paragraphs (see here, end of page 231) which involves a character mixing French and English, what is the proper way to treat these passages?

​- The word "lie" appears a few times, and I'm not sure of the meaning, I'm guessing it is an abbreviation, but couldn't find what for, can anyone help me with this?

- In chapter 1-8 there are three words in blackletter (page 65). It doesn't seem very important to me to keep them, maybe they should only have a <b> element. Thoughts?

- A few of the endnotes have a book cited at the end, often with pages, should it receive a <cite> element as well? Keep in mind that some of these will already have a <cite>--Editor</cite> as well. See here for example, not c.

- There is an instance of Scottice, which I'm confident is a archaic spelling of Scottish, what do you think?

Other than these questions, I'll also look over some things and finally posted it for review. 

--Hendrik

[David]

I'm impressed at your perseverance, Hendrik - the one project I could not bring myself to complete was The Heart of Midlothian. :/

I *might* be able to help with the "lie" question - there is in entry for it in the Scots dictionary, where there are several meanings listed. Do any of those fit for the contexts you noted? (I doubt it's an abbreviation.)

FWIW! David

[Robin Whittleton]

On the masque, we could go with se:name.publication or se:name.publication.play if you think that’s close enough.

On “Tales of My Landlord”, I think we can quote them? We don’t have any specific guideline here, and while this very question has caused me to order a Chicago Manual of Style, I don’t have that to hand at the moment.

On semi-French, italicise the ones that are still French after “de-accenting” them. So in you first example of “Ah, ver well! dat is fort bien!” I’d add French italicisation to fort bien but not the rest.

Did David’s answer help on “lie”?

We’ve got a blackletter font available and it’s not difficult to integrate. I’d suggest adding it. This Twain uses it: you’ll need to add the font file, declare it in local.css, style it in the right place, then regenerate your manifest.

On the endnote books, yes, they can be citations in the same way (with appropriate semantics). I assume there are none with both a book and Editor?

On Scottice, the references I can find specifically refer to Scottish Gaelic, the language. If that’s the case let’s leave as is I think, because there’s no language referred to in modern English as “Scottish”; it’s either Scottish Gaelic or Scots, and neither of them are soundalike.

-Robin

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/a547c3d3-2f29-43ba-9442-124a0a0ba384n%40googlegroups.com.

[Hendrik Kaiber]

Robin: regarding the endnotes, I might not have expressed very well. Here is the endnotes files.

- Some have text and a book being cited, (e.g. notes 40 and 124);

- Some have both a book and the Editor (e.g. notes 38 and 129);

- And some have only a book (e.g. notes 7 and 9).

I might be overthinking, but it feels strange to have two <cite> elements in a note, so I'm curious how the second case should be dealt with. I assume the third case can simply have a <cite> element?

Regarding the "lie" I now realized that that an explanation is actually given in the endnotes (note 117), and apparently it is a word of unclear origin, possibly derived from French, and it might mean the imperative form of "to read" (legere). Apologies for my lack of attention on this subject.

I'll add the black letter font. I was actually familiar with it, but wasn't sure if we actually wanted it. Do think I should use a <b> or a <span> element to style it?

--Hendrik

[David]

I think this is the relevant CMoS entry?

Maybe? Hope that helps!

On Tuesday, 30 September 2025 at 20:23:58 UTC+1 robin wrote:

. . .

[Vince]

On Sep 30, 2025, at 2:23 PM, Robin Whittleton <ro...@reala.net> wrote:

…

On “Tales of My Landlord”, I think we can quote them? We don’t have any specific guideline here, and while this very question has caused me to order a Chicago Manual of Style, I don’t have that to hand at the moment.

According to the 17th ed., 8.176, “Titles of book series and editions are capitalized but not italicized.” None of the examples are quoted, either.

the Loeb Classical Library

a Modern Library edition

the Crime and Justice series

a book in the Heritage of Sociology Series

I believe this came up early in the Comédie, and what Alex said was the same, i.e. it should be referred to as just the Human Comedy, and same for the scenes (which are subsets of the whole), e.g. Scenes from Private Life. But I can’t lay that conversation to hand at the moment. And, as is always true, a quick search shows that I’ve violated that several ways from Sunday, so I need some to submit some PR’s. Sigh.

[Robin Whittleton]

I had a look and found a few double cites in the corpus. For an example, have a look at https://github.com/standardebooks/adam-smith_the-wealth-of-nations/blob/master/src/epub/text/endnotes.xhtml#L2165 (there were more in Pepys but I can’t link to those because the endnotes file is too big).

For the blackletter, go with <b>.

Go with Vince’s suggestion for the collection.

-Robin

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/5707c3fa-1773-4cc8-8d7c-0ea23c0ad146n%40googlegroups.com.

[Alex Cabal]

If "Tales of My Landlord" is the name of a set of books, then it is
neither italicized or quoted. Think the Harry Potter series, the Lord of
the Rings series.

On 9/30/25 2:23 PM, Robin Whittleton wrote:
> On the masque, we could go with se:name.publication or
> se:name.publication.play if you think that’s close enough.
>
> On “Tales of My Landlord”, I think we can quote them? We don’t have any
> specific guideline here, and while this very question has caused me to
> order a Chicago Manual of Style, I don’t have that to hand at the moment.
>
> On semi-French, italicise the ones that are still French after “de-
> accenting” them. So in you first example of “Ah, ver well! dat is fort

> bien!” I’d add French italicisation to /fort bien/ but not the rest.

>
> Did David’s answer help on “lie”?
>

> We’ve got a blackletter font available <https://github.com/
> standardebooks/standard-blackletter> and it’s not difficult to
> integrate. I’d suggest adding it. This Twain <https://github.com/
> standardebooks/mark-twain_a-connecticut-yankee-in-king-arthurs-
> court> uses it: you’ll need to add the font file, declare it in

> local.css, style it in the right place, then regenerate your manifest.
>
> On the endnote books, yes, they can be citations in the same way (with
> appropriate semantics). I assume there are none with both a book and Editor?
>
> On Scottice, the references I can find specifically refer to Scottish
> Gaelic, the language. If that’s the case let’s leave as is I think,
> because there’s no language referred to in modern English as “Scottish”;
> it’s either Scottish Gaelic or Scots, and neither of them are soundalike.
>
> -Robin
>
>> On 30 Sep 2025, at 20:41, Hendrik Kaiber <hendrik....@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> ​After a long while, I think this book is almost ready for a review. I
>> would like guidance on a few topics before it is available for review.
>>

>> - There is an instance of /The Gipsies Metamorphosed <https://
>> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gypsies_Metamorphosed> / in the text, which

>> Wikipedia lists as a masque, should it receive any kind of semantics?
>> I'm not sure.
>>

>> - /Tales of My Landlord/ is mentioned, which is a subset of the

>> Waverley novels. Should it receive any semantics? I don't think it
>> should, but would rather confirm it.
>>

>> - There are some paragraphs (see here <https://archive.org/details/
>> waverleynovelswi02scotuoft/page/n257/mode/2up?
>> q=%22dat+is+fort+bien%21%22>, end of page 231) which involves a

>> character mixing French and English, what is the proper way to treat
>> these passages?
>>
>> ​- The word "lie" appears a few times, and I'm not sure of the
>> meaning, I'm guessing it is an abbreviation, but couldn't find what
>> for, can anyone help me with this?
>>
>> - In chapter 1-8 there are three words in blackletter (page 65

>> <https://archive.org/details/waverleynovels011893scotuoft/page/64/
>> mode/2up>). It doesn't seem very important to me to keep them, maybe

>> they should only have a <b> element. Thoughts?
>>
>> - A few of the endnotes have a book cited at the end, often with
>> pages, should it receive a <cite> element as well? Keep in mind that
>> some of these will already have a <cite>--Editor</cite> as well. See

>> here <https://archive.org/details/waverleynovels011893scotuoft/
>> page/294/mode/2up> for example, not /c/.
>>
>> - There is an instance of /Scottice/, which I'm confident is a archaic
>> spelling of /Scottish/, what do you think?

>>
>> Other than these questions, I'll also look over some things and
>> finally posted it for review.
>>
>> --Hendrik
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, August 27, 2025 at 3:24:13 AM UTC-3 robin wrote:
>>
>> Personally I wouldn’t italicise them. There’s still an ongoing
>> argument as to whether Scots is a vernacular, dialect or separate
>> language. But from a purely visual level I think it’d distract
>> from the flow of the novel, and the language is typically
>> “gettable” from context if you only speak English.
>>
>> -Robin
>>
>>> On 26 Aug 2025, at 16:48, Hendrik Kaiber <hendrik....@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Just to give a an update: I'm slowing proofreading the book,
>>> marking anything that stands out in need of formatting (there are
>>> quite a lot of publication titles!)
>>>
>>> One question: There is several passages which are either in Scots
>>> or vernacular English from Scotland (I can't really tell the
>>> difference). How should I structure them? Should I use <i> with
>>> language semantics? This there might be too many passages, so
>>> <span> elements might be more appropriate. Since I can't easily
>>> tell the difference. Here's an example from chapter XIV (vol. 2):
>>>

>>> /“And will ye face thae tearing chields, the dragoons, Ensign
>>> Maccombich?” again inquired the landlady./
>>> /
>>> /
>>> --Hendrik//

>>> On Saturday, July 26, 2025 at 5:08:55 PM UTC-3 Alex Cabal wrote:
>>>
>>> You should normalize the spellings, use whichever version
>>> appears more
>>> frequently.
>>>
>>> On 7/24/25 2:36 PM, Hendrik Kaiber wrote:
>>> > I understand that (I actually added a few variants
>>> already), but some of
>>> > the entries have only one instance in the text, and simply
>>> adding as a
>>> > variant will make the glossary entry appear different than
>>> the text
>>> > occurrence. I'm asking if the glossary itself (not the key
>>> map file)
>>> > should be harmonized with the text (maybe I'm not
>>> explaining properly).
>>> >
>>> > --Hendrik
>>> > On Thursday, July 24, 2025 at 4:14:05 PM UTC-3 robin wrote:
>>> >
>>> > You can add multiple spellings and inflections to the glossary-
>>> > search-key-map. For example,https://github.com/

>>> standardebooks/ <https://github.com/standardebooks/>
>>> > samuel-butler-1612-1680_hudibras/blob/master/src/epub/glossary-
>>> > search-key-map.xml#L72-L75 <https://github.com/
>>> standardebooks/ <https://github.com/standardebooks/>
>>> > samuel-butler-1612-1680_hudibras/blob/master/src/epub/glossary-
>>> > search-key-map.xml#L72-L75> andhttps://github.com/
>>> standardebooks/ <https://github.com/standardebooks/>
>>> > samuel-butler-1612-1680_hudibras/blob/master/src/epub/text/
>>> > glossary.xhtml#L144-L149 <https://github.com/
>>> standardebooks/samuel- <https://github.com/standardebooks/
>>> samuel->

>>> > butler-1612-1680_hudibras/blob/master/src/epub/text/
>>> > glossary.xhtml#L144-L149>
>>> >
>>> > -Robin
>>> >
>>> >> On 24 Jul 2025, at 01:26, Hendrik Kaiber
>>> <hendrik....@gmail.com>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> There are a few instances of words being spelled in one
>>> way at the
>>> >> glossary, and another in the text (bang-up/bang up;beflumm'd/
>>> >> beflummed for instance). In this case which spelling do
>>> you think
>>> >> should have precedence? I think the one in the text, but would
>>> >> like to confirm.
>>> >>
>>> >> --Hendrik
>>> >> On Monday, July 21, 2025 at 3:40:15 PM UTC-3 robin wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Yep. It can live in an epigraph.xhtml directly before the
>>> >> halftitlepage. Info on epigraphs at https://

>>> >>standardebooks.org/manual/1.8.3/single-page#7.4 <http://
>>> standardebooks.org/manual/1.8.3/single-page#7.4><https://
>>> >>standardebooks.org/manual/1.8.3/single-page#7.4 <http://

>>> standardebooks.org/manual/1.8.3/single-page#7.4>> (and note
>>> >> 7.4.6 for full-page epigraphs).
>>> >>
>>> >> See /A Pair of Blue Eyes/ for an example:https://

>>> github.com/ <https://github.com/>

>>> >> standardebooks/thomas-hardy_a-pair-of-blue-eyes/blob/master/
>>> >> src/epub/text/epigraph.xhtml <https://github.com/
>>> <https://github.com/>
>>> >> standardebooks/thomas-hardy_a-pair-of-blue-eyes/blob/master/
>>> >> src/epub/text/epigraph.xhtml>
>>> >>
>>> >>> On 21 Jul 2025, at 18:18, Hendrik Kaiber
>>> >>> <hendrik....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> There is an epigraph in the part 1page (page 91 <https://
>>> >>>archive.org/details/waverleynovels011893scotuoft/page/n89/

>>> <http://archive.org/details/waverleynovels011893scotuoft/

>>> page/n89/>
>>> >>> mode/2up>). Should it be its own file? If so, where do you
>>> >>> think is the appropriate place to put it? Before the half
>>> >>> titlepage?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> --Hendrik
>>> >>> On Friday, July 18, 2025 at 3:22:03 AM UTC-3 robin wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> You should keep the “Or,” as well. See Moby Dick for how
>>> >>> to do it:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>https://github.com/standardebooks/herman-melville_moby-
>>> <https://github.com/standardebooks/herman-melville_moby->
>>> >>> dick/blob/master/src/epub/content.opf#L34-L39 <https://
>>> >>>github.com/standardebooks/herman-melville_moby-dick/blob/

>>> <http://github.com/standardebooks/herman-melville_moby-dick/

>>> >>>>> <https://archive.org/details/ <https://archive.org/
>>> details/>

>>> >>>>> waverleynovelswi02scotuoft/page/n205/mode/2up>). Do
>>> >>>>> you think I should try to keep the formatting
>>> >>>>> present in the scans or ignore it, and just use the
>>> >>>>> appropriate style and semantics of the Manual?
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> --Hendrik
>>> >>>>> Em domingo, 13 de julho de 2025 às 13:59:56 UTC-3,
>>> >>>>> robin escreveu:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> 1. Feels like a dedication rather than a
>>> >>>>> preface, so the h2 makes sense in that context.
>>> >>>>> The rest can be formatted as a letter.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> 2. I’d leave them in. Anything else would be a
>>> >>>>> judgement call, and the meaning may have
>>> >>>>> shifted slightly in common understanding since
>>> >>>>> the publication anyway.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> -Robin
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>> On 13 Jul 2025, at 18:15, Hendrik Kaiber
>>> >>>>>> <hendrik....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Two more questions:
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> 1 - How should I properly format the preface

>>> >>>>>> (page 12 <https://archive.org/details/ <https://
>>> archive.org/details/>

>>> >>>>>>>> commit 24a56ad <https://github.com/ <https://
>>> github.com/>

>>> >>>>>>>> <https://archive.org/ <https://archive.org/>
>>> >>>>>>>> details/ <https://
>>> >>>>>>>>archive.org/details/ <http://archive.org/details/>>

>>> >>>>>>>> >>
>>> >>>>>>>> waverleynovels011893scotuoft/page/294/mode/2up> and
>>> more in vol. II

>>> >>>>>>>> >> <https://archive.org/ <https://archive.org/>

>>> >>>>>>>> details/
>>> >>>>>>>> waverleynovelswi02scotuoft/
>>> >>>>>>>> page/n423/ <https://

>>> >>>>>>>>archive.org/details/ <http://archive.org/details/>

>>> >>>>>>>> waverleynovelswi02scotuoft/
>>> >>>>>>>> page/n423/>
>>> >>>>>>>> >> mode/2up?q=%22mansion%22>.
>>> >>>>>>>> >>
>>> >>>>>>>> >> What do you think?
>>> >>>>>>>> >>
>>> >>>>>>>> >> --Hendrik
>>> >>>>>>>> >> Em quarta-feira, 18 de
>>> >>>>>>>> junho de 2025 às 05:52:21
>>> >>>>>>>> UTC-3, David escreveu:
>>> >>>>>>>> >>
>>> >>>>>>>> >> I'm watching this project
>>> >>>>>>>> progress with interest — I
>>> >>>>>>>> lost steam on
>>> >>>>>>>> >> Scott's Heart of
>>> >>>>>>>> Midlothian <https://

>>> >>>>>>>>groups.google.com/g/ <http://groups.google.com/g/>

>>> >>>>>>>> >> look <https://github.com/ <https://github.com/>
>>> >>>>>>>> dajare/walter-scott_the-
>>> >>>>>>>> heart-of- <https://
>>> >>>>>>>>github.com/dajare/walter- <http://github.com/dajare/

>>> walter->
>>> >>>>>>>> scott_the-heart-of->
>>> >>>>>>>> >> midlothian> (even to say:
>>> >>>>>>>> "Don't bother!), please feel
>>> >>>>>>>> free.
>>> >>>>>>>> >>
>>> >>>>>>>> >> David / Fife, UK
>>> >>>>>>>> >>
>>> >>>>>>>> >>
>>> >>>>>>>> >> --
>>> >>>>>>>> >> You received this message
>>> >>>>>>>> because you are subscribed
>>> >>>>>>>> to the Google
>>> >>>>>>>> >> Groups "Standard Ebooks"
>>> >>>>>>>> group.
>>> >>>>>>>> >> To unsubscribe from this
>>> >>>>>>>> group and stop receiving
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>>> >>>>>>>>tostandardebook...@googlegroups.com
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>>> >>>>>>>> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.
>>> >>>>>>>> >> To view this discussion
>>> >>>>>>>> visithttps://

>>> >>>>>>>>groups.google.com/d/msgid/ <http://groups.google.com/
>>> d/msgid/>
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>>> >>>>>>>> d/msgid/>
>>> >>>>>>>> >> standardebooks/
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>>> <http://40googlegroups.com/><http://40googlegroups.com/
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>>> msgid/ <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/><https://
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>>> >>>>>>>> >> standardebooks/
>>> >>>>>>>> f2a016a6-2343-499e-b8f8-
>>> >>>>>>>> >>
>>> >>>>>>>> f3485d2e9cd8n%40googlegroups.com?
>>> utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
>>> <http://40googlegroups.com/?
>>> utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer><http://40googlegroups.com/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <http://40googlegroups.com/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>.

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>>> >>>>>>>> standardebooks/45D9C607-6835-4F53-
>>> AA6F-90579ACB9BE4%40reala.net <http://40reala.net/
>>> ><http://40reala.net/ <http://40reala.net/>>
>>> >>>>>>>> > <https://
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>>> >>>>>>>> standardebooks/45D9C607-6835-4F53- <https://
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>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/
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>>> utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer><http://40reala.net/?
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>>> utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>.
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>>> <http://40googlegroups.com/><https://groups.google.com/d/
>>> msgid/standardebooks/ab332ba3-19bd-4d5c-
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>>> <http://40googlegroups.com/>
>>> >>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ <https://
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>>> >>>>>>> standardebooks/37e0cbe7-0323-4cdd-
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>>> msgid/>
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>>> <http://40googlegroups.com/>
>>> >>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ <https://
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>>> msgid/>
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>>> >>>>> e4d3a467e485n%40googlegroups.com
>>> <http://40googlegroups.com/><https://
>>> >>>>>groups.google.com/d/msgid/ <http://groups.google.com/d/
>>> msgid/>
>>> >>>>> standardebooks/90388121-7a9b-43fe-b0ca-
>>> >>>>> e4d3a467e485n%40googlegroups.com
>>> <http://40googlegroups.com/>?

>>> >>>>> utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
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>>> <http://40googlegroups.com/><https://groups.google.com/
>>> <https://groups.google.com/>
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>>> >>> e52ebdbeb8aen%40googlegroups.com
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>>> >>> utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
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>>> >> standardebooks/649b45eb-222e-4356-a929-
>>> >> c34fa64defdfn%40googlegroups.com
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>>> <http://40googlegroups.com/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.
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>>> > standardebooks/

>>> ee23bd69-4e4f-4277-9bd3-86de379d3a8cn%40googlegroups.com
>>> <http://40googlegroups.com/>
>>> > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/
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>>> > utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
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>>> utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
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>> standardebooks/

>> a547c3d3-2f29-43ba-9442-124a0a0ba384n%40googlegroups.com <https://
>> groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/
>> a547c3d3-2f29-43ba-9442-124a0a0ba384n%40googlegroups.com?

>> utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
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> standardebooks/C5646167-CF6F-466B-B76F-8509A262062A%40reala.net
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/C5646167-CF6F-466B-
> B76F-8509A262062A%40reala.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[Vince Rice]

As David’s CMS page confirms, Lord of the Rings should be italicized, as it’s been published under that name. LOTR was always the name of the book, it was just broken up into parts because of publishing constraints. And because he hadn’t finished the book yet. :)

On Sep 30, 2025, at 6:14 PM, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org> wrote:

If "Tales of My Landlord" is the name of a set of books, then it is neither italicized or quoted. Think the Harry Potter series, the Lord of the Rings series.

[Hendrik Kaiber]

I'll soon post this for a review, just two more questions:

- Se lint shows m-009 error (Unexpected value for <meta property="se:url.vcs.github"> element.) The url currently is https://github.com/standardebooks/walter-scott_waverley, which seems correct and is consistent with other productions. It says that it should be https://github.com/standardebooks/standard-ebooks_walter-scott_waverley. What am I missing?

 - You said earlier that the dedication could be formatted as a letter, so I added the semantics to the blockquote, but now lint is complaining about it. What is the proper way to do it?

--Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

On the lint error, delete the url: prefix from the <dc:identifier id="uid"> at the top of content.opf. That was a relatively recent change.

On the dedication, my mistake; it looks like, as suggested, we don’t use letter semantics for dedications. So I’d suggest removing the semantic attributes apart from possibly the signature, then replicating the style with dedication-specific CSS.

(Also, we’re missing the “o” in Gracious in the dedication title, and the “https://” from the archive.org link for that volume in content.opf.)

-Robin

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[Hendrik Kaiber]

I think this is ready for a review, David.

This was much more complex than I anticipated, and I had some issues during the meantime, so there will surely be quite a few issues to improve. There was quite a lot of foreign language and publication semantics. Modernize-spelling makes some suggestions, but they are all regarding hyphens in verse sections, so I left them for now.

Please take your time, I'll start working in Miss Mole in the meanwhile.

--Hendrik

[David Reimer]

As said before, well done persevering! I should be able to get to this
before mid-week next week. I know it's a complex production, so I
won't rush. _Miss Mole_ should feel like a breeze after this one. :)

D.