New Production: Pygmalion

[BT Keith]

https://github.com/b-t-k/george-bernard-shaw_pygmalion

In the preface Shaw states: "I would decipher a sound which a cockney would represent by <i>zerr</i>, and a Frenchman by <i>seu</i>” These are meant as phonetic transliterations. I can’t seem to find any tag though. Is there something appropriate?

_________

Guadeamus igitur iuvenes dum sumus

[Alex Cabal]

You can leave them without semantics.

I'm reading through Major Barbara now and it looks like the PG
transcription left italics as ALL CAPS, which were not fixed in our
production. Additionally there are some missing italics like in Act 1:
"but the man *I* like".

Can you revisit Barbara and search for words in all caps, which should
be converted to <em>? And then eyeball the page scans to confirm that we
have all the italics from the source text.

This is an important step during the proofreading process. It is very
common for PG to use ALL CAPS and to skip or miss other italics
entirely, and we have to check against the page scans and fix that.

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[BT Keith]

Ok. I will go back through all my books to see if that was something I consistently missed. Still working on my checklist.

Question though, am I working on my repository or on the new one?

_________

Guadeamus igitur iuvenes dum sumus

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[Alex Cabal]

No, please submit a pull request to the new SE repo. This is the
official one from now on.
https://github.com/standardebooks/george-bernard-shaw_major-barbara

For PG transcriptions in which they used ALL CAPS, they always did not
italicize single "I"s. (Because they are already capitalized, of
course.) So just eyeball the page scans and pay close attention to "I".
I spotted at least 2 instances so there are likely many more.

Thanks!

On 2/16/19 7:16 PM, BT Keith wrote:
> Ok. I will go back through all my books to see if that was something I
> consistently missed. Still working on my checklist.
>
> Question though, am I working on my repository or on the new one?
> _________
> Guadeamus igitur iuvenes dum sumus
>
>> On Feb 16, 2019, at 5:41 PM, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org

>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/96b7928f-1efd-fc70-996f-9eed99f3c390%40standardebooks.org.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

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[BT Keith]

Ok, this is all new to me. Can you step me through it.

I cloned the repo and made my changes. Then i realized I couldn’t just commit them. Reading the help files implies I need to with make a branch (which I don’t think I have permission for) or a fork. As far as I can tell a fork is just a new repo…I think…

after that I am a bit lost.

_________

Guadeamus igitur iuvenes dum sumus

[BT Keith]

I switched to tech Stand By For Mars repo because it only had two small errors. After forking it I made the changes and sync’d them. Then I think I created a Pull Request on the Master. Let me know f it worked and I will go ahead and do it on Major Barbara.

Learning new things every day...

_________

Guadeamus igitur iuvenes dum sumus

[Alex Cabal]

Everything worked fine, thanks!

On 2/17/19 11:30 AM, BT Keith wrote:
> I switched to tech Stand By For Mars repo because it only had two small
> errors. After forking it I made the changes and sync’d them. Then I
> think I created a Pull Request on the Master. Let me know f it worked
> and I will go ahead and do it on Major Barbara.
>
> Learning new things every day...
> _________
> Guadeamus igitur iuvenes dum sumus
>
>> On Feb 16, 2019, at 7:48 PM, BT Keith <bois...@gmail.com

>> <mailto:bois...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Ok, this is all new to me. Can you step me through it.
>>
>> I cloned the repo and made my changes. Then i realized I couldn’t just
>> commit them. Reading the help files implies I need to with make a
>> branch (which I don’t think I have permission for) or a fork. As far
>> as I can tell a fork is just a new repo…I think…
>>
>> after that I am a bit lost.
>> _________
>> Guadeamus igitur iuvenes dum sumus
>>
>>> On Feb 16, 2019, at 6:18 PM, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org

>>> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>> No, please submit a pull request to the new SE repo. This is the
>>> official one from now on.
>>> https://github.com/standardebooks/george-bernard-shaw_major-barbara
>>>
>>> For PG transcriptions in which they used ALL CAPS, they always did not
>>> italicize single "I"s. (Because they are already capitalized, of
>>> course.) So just eyeball the page scans and pay close attention to "I".
>>> I spotted at least 2 instances so there are likely many more.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> On 2/16/19 7:16 PM, BT Keith wrote:
>>>> Ok. I will go back through all my books to see if that was something I
>>>> consistently missed. Still working on my checklist.
>>>>
>>>> Question though, am I working on my repository or on the new one?
>>>> _________
>>>> Guadeamus igitur iuvenes dum sumus
>>>>
>>
>

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[BT Keith]

Cover ideas

Cover 1 is a bit early (1892 for 1913 setting), but i love the look in her face:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=gri.ark:/13960/t4pk4kf48;view=1up;seq=83

https://www.nationalgalleries.org/art-and-artists/5396/lady-agnew-lochnaw-1864-1932

Cover 2 is 1912-14 and the art nouveau influence is perfect for the period.

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/14514

_________

Guadeamus igitur iuvenes dum sumus

[BTK]

Just noticed cover #1 was used for Madame Bovary. Is there a master list of artwork used? Is that something that would be useful to compile?

I had a backup which I didn't like as much:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=gri.ark:/13960/t4pk4kf48;view=1up;seq=163

https://www.nga.gov/collection/art-object-page.45604.html

[Alex Cabal]

I keep a master list but it is not yet published.

I think any of those two (not Bovary) would work.

Also, I'm reading the Wikipedia article on the play and it notes various
versions, and calls out PG for missing a famous line. Maybe we should
consider adding that line? Or at least researching what the different
versions all entail, and whether or not one is better than another?

On 2/17/19 2:01 PM, BTK wrote:
> Just noticed cover #1 was used for Madame Bovary. Is there a master list
> of artwork used? Is that something that would be useful to compile?
>
>
> I had a backup which I didn't like as much:
> https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=gri.ark:/13960/t4pk4kf48;view=1up;seq=163
> https://www.nga.gov/collection/art-object-page.45604.html
>
> On Sunday, 17 February 2019 12:40:53 UTC-7, BTK wrote:
>
> Cover ideas
>
> Cover 1 is a bit early (1892 for 1913 setting), but i love the look
> in her face:
> https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=gri.ark:/13960/t4pk4kf48;view=1up;seq=83
> <https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=gri.ark:/13960/t4pk4kf48;view=1up;seq=83>
> https://www.nationalgalleries.org/art-and-artists/5396/lady-agnew-lochnaw-1864-1932
> <https://www.nationalgalleries.org/art-and-artists/5396/lady-agnew-lochnaw-1864-1932>
>
> Cover 2 is 1912-14 and the art nouveau influence is perfect for the
> period.
> https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/14514

> <https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/14514>

>
>
>
>
> _________
> Guadeamus igitur iuvenes dum sumus
>
>> On Feb 16, 2019, at 1:29 PM, BT Keith <bois...@gmail.com

>> <mailto:bois...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> https://github.com/b-t-k/george-bernard-shaw_pygmalion

>> <https://github.com/b-t-k/george-bernard-shaw_pygmalion>
>>
>> In the preface Shaw states: "I would decipher a sound which a
>> cockney would represent by <i>zerr</i>, and a Frenchman by
>> <i>seu</i>” These are meant as phonetic transliterations. I can’t
>> seem to find any tag though. Is there something appropriate?
>>
>>
>> _________
>> Guadeamus igitur iuvenes dum sumus
>>
>

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[BTK]

Ya, I was just reading that as well. How does the copyright issue work in that case? I might have a copy downstairs and there certainly is the library and other online editions, but the PG version is from the only pre-1923 version I can find.

I'll look into it regardless.

> <mailto:standardebooks+unsub...@googlegroups.com>.

[Alex Cabal]

You should find it in a pre-1923 text. If the line is famous as the
article suggests, then it is likely to have been printed in one of those
various editions.

> <javascript:>

> >>     <mailto:bois...@gmail.com <javascript:>>> wrote:
> >>
> >>     https://github.com/b-t-k/george-bernard-shaw_pygmalion
> <https://github.com/b-t-k/george-bernard-shaw_pygmalion>
> >>     <https://github.com/b-t-k/george-bernard-shaw_pygmalion
> <https://github.com/b-t-k/george-bernard-shaw_pygmalion>>
> >>
> >>     In the preface Shaw states: "I would decipher a sound which a
> >>     cockney would represent by <i>zerr</i>, and a Frenchman by
> >>     <i>seu</i>” These are meant as phonetic transliterations. I
> can’t
> >>     seem to find any tag though. Is there something appropriate?
> >>
> >>
> >>     _________
> >>     Guadeamus igitur iuvenes dum sumus
> >>
> >
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[BT Keith]

I am inclined to think this is typical bad Wikipedia scholarship… I checked about 8 or 9 editions that I could find accessible in Google Books and the internet archive and only two had the line in it: a 1998 Holt Reinhart edition and an multi-dated Penguin edition that contained the illustrations of Feliks Topolski which he did in 1941. If I had to guess I would say that the line was written for the 1938 movie and then incorporated into texts afterwards. I could only find two editions pre-1923, my 1916 source and the Everybody’s Magazine serialization and the line wasn’t in either.

B

_________

Guadeamus igitur iuvenes dum sumus

[Alex Cabal]

OK that's fine, thanks!

On 2/17/19 8:29 PM, BT Keith wrote:
> I am inclined to think this is typical bad Wikipedia scholarship… I
> checked about 8 or 9 editions that I could find accessible in Google
> Books and the internet archive and only two had the line in it: a 1998
> Holt Reinhart edition and an multi-dated Penguin edition that contained
> the illustrations of Feliks Topolski which he did in 1941. If I had to
> guess I would say that the line was written for the 1938 movie and then
> incorporated into texts afterwards. I could only find two editions
> pre-1923, my 1916 source and the Everybody’s Magazine serialization and
> the line wasn’t in either.
>
> B
> _________
> Guadeamus igitur iuvenes dum sumus
>
>> On Feb 17, 2019, at 6:24 PM, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org

>> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>> wrote:
>>
>> You should find it in a pre-1923 text. If the line is famous as the
>> article suggests, then it is likely to have been printed in one of those
>> various editions.
>>
>>
>> On 2/17/19 7:22 PM, BTK wrote:
>>> Ya, I was just reading that as well. How does the copyright issue work
>>> in that case? I might have a copy downstairs and there certainly is the
>>> library and other online editions, but the PG version is from the only
>>> pre-1923 version I can find.
>>>
>>> I'll look into it regardless.
>>>
>>> On Sunday, 17 February 2019 18:15:39 UTC-7, Alex Cabal wrote:
>>>
>>>    I keep a master list but it is not yet published.
>>>
>>>    I think any of those two (not Bovary) would work.
>>>
>>>    Also, I'm reading the Wikipedia article on the play and it notes
>>>    various
>>>    versions, and calls out PG for missing a famous line. Maybe we should
>>>    consider adding that line? Or at least researching what the different
>>>    versions all entail, and whether or not one is better than another?
>>>
>>>

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[Alex Cabal]

Which cover art did you select after all?

On 2/17/19 2:01 PM, BTK wrote:

> Just noticed cover #1 was used for Madame Bovary. Is there a master list
> of artwork used? Is that something that would be useful to compile?
>
>
> I had a backup which I didn't like as much:
> https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=gri.ark:/13960/t4pk4kf48;view=1up;seq=163
> https://www.nga.gov/collection/art-object-page.45604.html
>
> On Sunday, 17 February 2019 12:40:53 UTC-7, BTK wrote:
>
> Cover ideas
>
> Cover 1 is a bit early (1892 for 1913 setting), but i love the look
> in her face:
> https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=gri.ark:/13960/t4pk4kf48;view=1up;seq=83
> <https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=gri.ark:/13960/t4pk4kf48;view=1up;seq=83>
> https://www.nationalgalleries.org/art-and-artists/5396/lady-agnew-lochnaw-1864-1932
> <https://www.nationalgalleries.org/art-and-artists/5396/lady-agnew-lochnaw-1864-1932>
>
> Cover 2 is 1912-14 and the art nouveau influence is perfect for the
> period.
> https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/14514

> <https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/14514>

>
>
>
>
> _________
> Guadeamus igitur iuvenes dum sumus
>
>> On Feb 16, 2019, at 1:29 PM, BT Keith <bois...@gmail.com

>> <mailto:bois...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> https://github.com/b-t-k/george-bernard-shaw_pygmalion

>> <https://github.com/b-t-k/george-bernard-shaw_pygmalion>
>>
>> In the preface Shaw states: "I would decipher a sound which a
>> cockney would represent by <i>zerr</i>, and a Frenchman by
>> <i>seu</i>” These are meant as phonetic transliterations. I can’t
>> seem to find any tag though. Is there something appropriate?
>>
>>
>> _________
>> Guadeamus igitur iuvenes dum sumus
>>
>

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[BT Keith]

I thought I would go with the Cushing (Art nouveau). It’s got  a bit more “cheek” than the other one.

_________

Guadeamus igitur iuvenes dum sumus

[BT Keith]

OK. I think I have this done and ready for review. List shows two errors which are quote marks inside of stage directions.

https://github.com/b-t-k/george-bernard-shaw_pygmalion

B

_________

Guadeamus igitur iuvenes dum sumus

[Alex Cabal]

David, do you have some time to review this?

On 2/25/19 3:51 PM, BT Keith wrote:
> OK. I think I have this done and ready for review. List shows two errors
> which are quote marks inside of stage directions.
>
> https://github.com/b-t-k/george-bernard-shaw_pygmalion
>
> B
> _________
> Guadeamus igitur iuvenes dum sumus
>
>> On Feb 18, 2019, at 1:09 PM, BT Keith <bois...@gmail.com

>> <mailto:bois...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I thought I would go with the Cushing (Art nouveau). It’s got  a bit
>> more “cheek” than the other one.
>> _________
>> Guadeamus igitur iuvenes dum sumus
>>
>>> On Feb 18, 2019, at 12:34 PM, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org

>>> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Which cover art did you select after all?
>>>
>>> On 2/17/19 2:01 PM, BTK wrote:
>>>> Just noticed cover #1 was used for Madame Bovary. Is there a master list
>>>> of artwork used? Is that something that would be useful to compile?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I had a backup which I didn't like as much:
>>>> https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=gri.ark:/13960/t4pk4kf48;view=1up;seq=163
>>>> https://www.nga.gov/collection/art-object-page.45604.html
>>>>
>>>> On Sunday, 17 February 2019 12:40:53 UTC-7, BTK wrote:
>>>>
>>>>    Cover ideas
>>>>
>>>>    Cover 1 is a bit early (1892 for 1913 setting), but i love the look
>>>>    in her face:
>>>>    https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=gri.ark:/13960/t4pk4kf48;view=1up;seq=83
>>>>    <https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=gri.ark:/13960/t4pk4kf48;view=1up;seq=83>
>>>>    https://www.nationalgalleries.org/art-and-artists/5396/lady-agnew-lochnaw-1864-1932
>>>>    <https://www.nationalgalleries.org/art-and-artists/5396/lady-agnew-lochnaw-1864-1932>
>>>>
>>>>    Cover 2 is 1912-14 and the art nouveau influence is perfect for the
>>>>    period.
>>>>    https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/14514
>>>>    <https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/14514>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>

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[David Grigg]

Yes, I'll take a look. Might take me a couple of days, though.

[David Grigg]

Getting this error on build (on macOS). Is this something to do with the new se toolset?

Building /Users/david/Dropbox/Standard Ebooks/TEMP/george-bernard-shaw_pygmalion ...

Building george-bernard-shaw_pygmalion.epub3 ... OK

Building george-bernard-shaw_pygmalion.kepub.epub ... OK

Building george-bernard-shaw_pygmalion.epub ... OK

Running epubcheck on george-bernard-shaw_pygmalion.epub ... OK

Building george-bernard-shaw_pygmalion.azw3 ...    Error: Hyphenator for language "en_GB" not available.

Installed hyphenators: []

The Kindle version fails to build. 

[BT Keith]

Hmmmm…

I have a valid build when I did it yesterday…and again today. Toolset version standardebooks-1.0.4

_________

Guadeamus igitur iuvenes dum sumus

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[Alex Cabal]

That error suggests there are no dictionaries installed for your
pyhyphen module. Not sure how to correct that... those have been
installed automatically for some time now. Maybe it's something to do
with where pip3 installs either se or pyhyphen? Do you have libreoffice
installed?

In either case this is not a fatal error if you're not actually going to
use the azw3 file. For review purposes just running `se build --check`
is enough.

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[David Grigg]

May just be my system, some resource I haven't yet downloaded.

[David Grigg]

There are a couple of issues I've logged in the repository, all pretty minor.

Otherwise, it looks fine.

[BT Keith]

Ok. I’ve dealt with all 4. Should be good to go now.

_________

Guadeamus igitur iuvenes dum sumus

On Feb 26, 2019, at 7:55 PM, David Grigg <david...@gmail.com> wrote:

There are a couple of issues I've logged in the repository, all pretty minor.

Otherwise, it looks fine.

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[Alex Cabal]

Great, I've gone ahead and released the ebook!

Make sure to run `pip3 install --update standardebooks` before starting
a new production, as the tools are updated frequently. Thanks!

On 2/26/19 9:56 PM, BT Keith wrote:
> Ok. I’ve dealt with all 4. Should be good to go now.
> _________
> Guadeamus igitur iuvenes dum sumus
>
>> On Feb 26, 2019, at 7:55 PM, David Grigg <david...@gmail.com

>> <mailto:david...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> There are a couple of issues I've logged in the repository, all pretty
>> minor.
>>
>> Otherwise, it looks fine.
>>
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[Asher Smith]

I've recently obtained a 1925 edition of Shaw's works, and have been reading Pygmalion in a physical copy. I've noticed that there's some typographical emphasis used in places by spacing out a work like t h i s, and that we're not replicating that in our edition. For reference, here's a page scan that matches my physical edition (which was published in London):

This is not present in the American-published edition that we reference as scans:

and thus it's not present in the PG transcription and not present in our edition:

I've noticed a handful of these emphasis features when reading through the play. I'd propose to go through and restore these, but wanted to check first to make sure that their omission isn't preferred.

[Paul Andinach]

I think that they ought to be represented in some fashion, since that's an author-indicated emphasis. (You probably know this already: indicating emphasis with spacing instead of italics or underlines was one of Shaw's idiosyncrasies, along with leaving out the apostrophes in words like "don't".)

Semantically, it would be an em tag; you could replicate Shaw's preferred appearance using CSS's letter-spacing property, though I don't go so far as to say that you should, any more than you should follow his preference regarding the apostrophes.

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[Adam Stone]

That's interesting that there are instances of emphasis in the London edition that are absent in the US edition that SE's version was checked against. When I read the SE version of Pygmalion a few months ago, I'd noticed that there were places where emphasis was missing. I went through the page scans from HathiTrust page by page, line by line, and restored all the missing emphasis that I found. Just to clarify how emphasis is indicated: for words that are spelled with two or more letters, the letters are spaced out to indicate emphasis. If a word is a single letter (like the personal pronoun "I"), it's italicized to indicate emphasis.

[sjmwof...@gmail.com]

Very interesting.

This may be common knowledge, but if not: using letter-spacing to denote emphasis is from German orthography, as their blackletter type (sometimes confusingly called Gothic) has no accompanying italic. The practice is called ‘Sperrsatz’. Among his various other issues with English orthography, Shaw appears to have been no fan of using italics for emphasis, though I don’t have chapter and verse for where he might have put this in writing.

Presumably the question is whether to keep the letter-spacing or replace it with italics (which would be consistent with adding the apostrophe back into ‘don’t’), or indeed ignore it altogether. The line evidently works with or without the emphasis on ‘you’, but Shaw’s intentions seem clear enough.

[Asher Smith]

Yeah, in the nine previous Shaw productions I've done, I've used <em> for s p a c e d text. I note here that in this production, there's some places where there are <strong> elements instead of <em> elements, and so I'm replacing them all with <em> elements for consistency. I just wanted to make sure that Timothy hadn't done them this way in his original production for a reason that I wasn't familiar with.

Alex, I'll put through a PR when I'm done.

[David]

FWIW, using adding  s p a c i n g  is very common in older German academic works I happen to be familiar with, always (as I've encountered this) where Anglophone publishers would use italics. So the `em` treatment certainly makes sense to me.

David / Fife, UK

[Alex Cabal]

Yes, you can replace those with a regular <em>

On 4/23/26 6:11 AM, Asher Smith wrote:
> I've recently obtained a 1925 edition of Shaw's works, and have been
> reading Pygmalion in a physical copy. I've noticed that there's some
> typographical emphasis used in places by spacing out a work like t h i
> s, and that we're not replicating that in our edition. For reference,
> here's a page scan that matches my physical edition (which was published
> in London):

> Screenshot 2026-04-23 at 12.05.48.png
> This is not present in the American-published edition that we reference
> as scans:

> Screenshot 2026-04-23 at 12.06.56.png
> and thus it's not present in the PG transcription and not present in our
> edition:

> standardebooks <https://groups.google.com/group/standardebooks>.

> >> To view this discussion on the web visit
> >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/
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[Asher Smith]

I also note that there's a mix of spelling in the source of mam and maam in my copy, and PG has ended up with a ma'am as well. In any other book I'd assume this was an oversight, but given how many phonetic spellings are in this book generally (as it is a book about language and accent), and given that all of the "mam" spellings are said by one character and all the "maam" spellings by another (and consistently so), I'd argue that this is an intentional, stylistic choice that should be reverted away from the modernisation that has happened everywhere else. I've done that in an [Editorial] commit and made it the most recent one so you can choose whether to accept it from the PR.

I've added in all the <em> incidences I can find, sometimes converting from <strong>. I've made a couple [Editorial] changes where Shaw only italicises the "I" in "I'm" to italicise the whole word. Somehow this had an effect on the word count, so I've updated that. Finally, the issue of punctuation as dialogue (which was brought up in The Apple Cart and occurred a few times in Back to Methuselah) turns up here but was missing in our edition, so I've restored that and added a lint-ignore file.

I think that all of these justify adding myself as a pfr marc:relator; what's standard policy about this? I don't think this is a large enough contribution for a bkp, but do these changes qualify for tyg or mrk?

[Alex Cabal]

pfr is basically for the reviewer. People submit large changesets all
the time and we don't really add or remove marc relators for that.

On 4/23/26 4:38 PM, Asher Smith wrote:
> I also note that there's a mix of spelling in the source of mam and maam
> in my copy, and PG has ended up with a ma'am as well. In any other book
> I'd assume this was an oversight, but given how many phonetic spellings
> are in this book generally (as it is a book about language and accent),
> and given that all of the "mam" spellings are said by one character and
> all the "maam" spellings by another (and consistently so), I'd argue
> that this is an intentional, stylistic choice that should be reverted
> away from the modernisation that has happened everywhere else. I've done
> that in an [Editorial] commit and made it the most recent one so you can
> choose whether to accept it from the PR.
>
> I've added in all the <em> incidences I can find, sometimes converting
> from <strong>. I've made a couple [Editorial] changes where Shaw only
> italicises the "I" in "I'm" to italicise the whole word. Somehow this
> had an effect on the word count, so I've updated that. Finally, the

> issue of punctuation as dialogue (which was brought up in /The Apple
> Cart/ and occurred a few times in /Back to Methuselah/) turns up here

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