Proposed production: Beatrix Potter animal tales

Robin Whittleton

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Dec 29, 2021, 7:51:49 AM12/29/21

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22 of the 23 books are in US PD and the last won’t arrive for a few years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatrix_Potter#Publications . Something we’d want? It wouldn’t be a difficult compilation, so I’d be happy to add it to the moderate list and leave it to someone else as their first compilation instead.

-Robin

Asher Smith

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Dec 29, 2021, 5:56:09 PM12/29/21

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Those all seem very illustration-heavy to me. Is that a problem?

Vince

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Dec 29, 2021, 7:46:25 PM12/29/21

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We don’t keep illustrations (for fiction), so no. :)

Asher Smith

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Dec 29, 2021, 7:47:45 PM12/29/21

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Let me rephrase: are Beatrix Potter books of sufficient value without their illustrations?

Vince

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Dec 29, 2021, 7:49:34 PM12/29/21

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Of course.

Alex Cabal

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Dec 29, 2021, 11:18:30 PM12/29/21

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Sure I suppose, but aren't a few of those poetry books and not short
stories?

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Robin Whittleton

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Dec 30, 2021, 4:12:56 AM12/30/21

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Yep, so let’s leave out the two nursery rhymes books, leaving twenty stories stopping at Johnny Town-Mouse.

The most problematic of these are going to be the ones that directly reference the illustrations, e.g. “This is a man with a gun” in https://www.gutenberg.org/files/45265/45265-h/45265-h.htm .

Suggested cover art: Rabbits by François Desportes, CC0 from Nationalmuseet: http://collection.nationalmuseum.se/eMP/eMuseumPlus?service=ExternalInterface&module=collection&objectId=17800&viewType=detailView

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Alex Cabal

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Dec 30, 2021, 1:33:30 PM12/30/21

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Good cover find.

Thinking about this a little more, maybe these illustrations can be
categorized as 'essential' since often the text references the
illustrations directly. In your example, the whole thing wouldn't make
sense without the illustrations.

How many of these stories do you think would have essential images like
this?

On 12/30/21 3:12 AM, Robin Whittleton wrote:
> Yep, so let’s leave out the two nursery rhymes books, leaving twenty
> stories stopping at Johnny Town-Mouse.
>
> The most problematic of these are going to be the ones that directly
> reference the illustrations, e.g. “This is a man with a gun” in
> https://www.gutenberg.org/files/45265/45265-h/45265-h.htm
> <https://www.gutenberg.org/files/45265/45265-h/45265-h.htm> .
>

>
>
>
>> On 30 Dec 2021, at 05:18, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org

>> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Sure I suppose, but aren't a few of those poetry books and not short
>> stories?
>>
>> On 12/29/21 6:51 AM, Robin Whittleton wrote:
>>> 22 of the 23 books are in US PD and the last won’t arrive for a few
>>> years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatrix_Potter#Publications
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatrix_Potter#Publications>
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatrix_Potter#Publications
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatrix_Potter#Publications>> .
>>> Something we’d want? It wouldn’t be a difficult compilation, so I’d
>>> be happy to add it to the moderate list and leave it to someone else
>>> as their first compilation instead.
>>> -Robin
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Robin Whittleton

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Dec 30, 2021, 1:41:51 PM12/30/21

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The two obvious ones (so far, I’m still assembling the texts) are The Story of a Fierce Bad Rabbit (https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45265) and The Story of Miss Moppet (https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/14848). I’ll sort out a proper list once I’ve got them all in place.

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Robin Whittleton

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Dec 31, 2021, 9:01:43 AM12/31/21

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OK: https://github.com/robinwhittleton/beatrix-potter_short-fiction.

On the illustrations: Fierce Bad Rabbit and Miss Moppet definitely make no sense without the illustrations. But I’m now thinking that potentially we just want to include all the illustrations? Hitting a couple of illustrated stories in the middle of a compilation might feel a bit odd, it’s specifically a children’s book, the illustrations were done by the author, and the tales are as famous for the illustrations as for the stories themselves.

On another note, most of the books have a dedication, which in the scans is way before the actual start of the text. I’m leaning to stripping these, as they’re not adding much when right at the start of the story in a compilation. Thoughts? Here’s an example: https://hdl.handle.net/2027/nc01.ark:/13960/t5t73h76d?urlappend=%3Bseq=6.

-Robin

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François Grandjean

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Dec 31, 2021, 12:11:41 PM12/31/21

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To add my bit regarding the illustrations: some stories make sense without them but the illustrations add or clarify some details that's aren't in the text. That's the case with the "gentleman with sandy-coloured whiskers" in The Tale of Jemima Puddle-Duck: the illustrations make it clear from the beginning that he is in fact a fox but the text never really does. Young children probably won't pick up that fact from the text alone, and his identity gives a certain colour to interactions in that story.

I'm not sure it'll change much but modern editions place the dedications between the title page and the story—my son received a box set of all Beatrix Potter stories as a Christmas present.

Alex Cabal

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Dec 31, 2021, 3:09:44 PM12/31/21

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I was thinking the same thing, we should probably just include all the
illustrations if we're going to include some of them. Francois makes a
good point re. some of them changing the story. So let's include all of
them.

The interesting technical question is: It looks like for at least some
of the books, the images that PG has include the yellow paper
background. Can we run them through Gimp/Photoshop to remove the yellow
background in favor of a transparent one? A straight color-to-alpha
won't work because that will wash out the actual watercolors. Instead we
want to just trim the background up to the image edges.

Re. dedications, let's leave them in. They can be part of the <header>
for each story.

On 12/31/21 8:01 AM, Robin Whittleton wrote:
> OK: https://github.com/robinwhittleton/beatrix-potter_short-fiction
> <https://github.com/robinwhittleton/beatrix-potter_short-fiction>.
>
> On the illustrations: /Fierce Bad Rabbit/ and /Miss Moppet/ definitely

> make no sense without the illustrations. But I’m now thinking that
> potentially we just want to include all the illustrations? Hitting a
> couple of illustrated stories in the middle of a compilation might feel
> a bit odd, it’s specifically a children’s book, the illustrations were
> done by the author, and the tales are as famous for the illustrations as
> for the stories themselves.
>
> On another note, most of the books have a dedication, which in the scans
> is way before the actual start of the text. I’m leaning to stripping
> these, as they’re not adding much when right at the start of the story
> in a compilation. Thoughts? Here’s an example:
> https://hdl.handle.net/2027/nc01.ark:/13960/t5t73h76d?urlappend=%3Bseq=6

> <https://hdl.handle.net/2027/nc01.ark:/13960/t5t73h76d?urlappend=;seq=6>.

>
> -Robin
>
>> On 30 Dec 2021, at 19:41, Robin Whittleton <ro...@reala.net

>> <mailto:ro...@reala.net>> wrote:
>>
>> The two obvious ones (so far, I’m still assembling the texts) are The
>> Story of a Fierce Bad Rabbit (https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45265

>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45265>) and The Story of Miss Moppet
>> (https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/14848
>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/14848>). I’ll sort out a proper list

>> once I’ve got them all in place.
>>
>>> On 30 Dec 2021, at 19:33, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org

>>> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Good cover find.
>>>
>>> Thinking about this a little more, maybe these illustrations can be
>>> categorized as 'essential' since often the text references the
>>> illustrations directly. In your example, the whole thing wouldn't
>>> make sense without the illustrations.
>>>
>>> How many of these stories do you think would have essential images
>>> like this?
>>>
>>> On 12/30/21 3:12 AM, Robin Whittleton wrote:
>>>> Yep, so let’s leave out the two nursery rhymes books, leaving twenty
>>>> stories stopping at Johnny Town-Mouse.
>>>> The most problematic of these are going to be the ones that directly
>>>> reference the illustrations, e.g. “This is a man with a gun” in
>>>> https://www.gutenberg.org/files/45265/45265-h/45265-h.htm
>>>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/files/45265/45265-h/45265-h.htm>
>>>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/files/45265/45265-h/45265-h.htm
>>>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/files/45265/45265-h/45265-h.htm>> .
>>>> Suggested cover art: /Rabbits/ by François Desportes, CC0 from
>>>> Nationalmuseet:
>>>> http://collection.nationalmuseum.se/eMP/eMuseumPlus?service=ExternalInterface&module=collection&objectId=17800&viewType=detailView
>>>> <http://collection.nationalmuseum.se/eMP/eMuseumPlus?service=ExternalInterface&module=collection&objectId=17800&viewType=detailView>
>>>> <http://collection.nationalmuseum.se/eMP/eMuseumPlus?service=ExternalInterface&module=collection&objectId=17800&viewType=detailView
>>>> <http://collection.nationalmuseum.se/eMP/eMuseumPlus?service=ExternalInterface&module=collection&objectId=17800&viewType=detailView>>
>>>>> On 30 Dec 2021, at 05:18, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org

>>>>> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org

>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/bacacc14-31e6-6fe0-f7a6-aa5bd4f17aa6%40standardebooks.org
>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/bacacc14-31e6-6fe0-f7a6-aa5bd4f17aa6%40standardebooks.org>

>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/bacacc14-31e6-6fe0-f7a6-aa5bd4f17aa6%40standardebooks.org
>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/bacacc14-31e6-6fe0-f7a6-aa5bd4f17aa6%40standardebooks.org>>.
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Robin Whittleton

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Feb 14, 2022, 4:49:28 AM2/14/22

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So plan is to prep the book without images, then add the images as a second phase. I’ve finished the first of those, and thought I’d run a quick build --check-only to check for problems, and it’s thrown up something I haven’t seen before.

In The Tailor of Gloucester there’s a dedication which is in a story-level <header>. The dedication itself is in the form of a letter, and has a salutation in its own <header>. epubcheck flags this as a nested header (RSC-005) and looking at the HTML specs that seems legit: the content model of https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/sections.html#the-header-element doesn’t allow any <header> descendents.

So I think I’ll remove the salutation from its own header, make sure the styling is correct, and silence any lint errors. Sound reasonable?

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Alex Cabal

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Feb 14, 2022, 12:53:23 PM2/14/22

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Are you sure the dedication belongs in the header? Dedications are
usually their own sections, especially if it's a letter.

On 2/14/22 3:49 AM, Robin Whittleton wrote:
> So plan is to prep the book without images, then add the images as a
> second phase. I’ve finished the first of those, and thought I’d run a
> quick build --check-only to check for problems, and it’s thrown up
> something I haven’t seen before.
>

> In /The Tailor of Gloucester/ there’s a dedication which is in a

> story-level <header>. The dedication itself is in the form of a letter,
> and has a salutation in its own <header>. epubcheck flags this as a
> nested header (RSC-005) and looking at the HTML specs that seems legit:
> the content model of
> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/sections.html#the-header-element
> <https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/sections.html#the-header-element> doesn’t
> allow any <header> descendents.
>
> So I think I’ll remove the salutation from its own header, make sure the
> styling is correct, and silence any lint errors. Sound reasonable?
>
>> On 31 Dec 2021, at 21:09, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org

>>>> <mailto:ro...@reala.net> <mailto:ro...@reala.net

>>>> <mailto:ro...@reala.net>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The two obvious ones (so far, I’m still assembling the texts) are
>>>> The Story of a Fierce Bad Rabbit
>>>> (https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45265
>>>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45265>
>>>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45265
>>>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45265>>) and The Story of Miss
>>>> Moppet (https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/14848
>>>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/14848>
>>>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/14848
>>>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/14848>>). I’ll sort out a proper
>>>> list once I’ve got them all in place.
>>>>
>>>>> On 30 Dec 2021, at 19:33, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org

>>>>>>> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org

>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/bacacc14-31e6-6fe0-f7a6-aa5bd4f17aa6%40standardebooks.org
>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/bacacc14-31e6-6fe0-f7a6-aa5bd4f17aa6%40standardebooks.org>
>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/bacacc14-31e6-6fe0-f7a6-aa5bd4f17aa6%40standardebooks.org
>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/bacacc14-31e6-6fe0-f7a6-aa5bd4f17aa6%40standardebooks.org>>
>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/bacacc14-31e6-6fe0-f7a6-aa5bd4f17aa6%40standardebooks.org
>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/bacacc14-31e6-6fe0-f7a6-aa5bd4f17aa6%40standardebooks.org>
>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/bacacc14-31e6-6fe0-f7a6-aa5bd4f17aa6%40standardebooks.org
>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/bacacc14-31e6-6fe0-f7a6-aa5bd4f17aa6%40standardebooks.org>>>.
>>>>>> --
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>>>>>> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
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>>>>>> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
>>>>>> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>>>.
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>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/68538793-02D2-4A6E-9019-B6BDDB214078%40reala.net
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>>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/021BCD7B-6E2F-4A1D-AF34-20C786E3D7E4%40reala.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer

>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/021BCD7B-6E2F-4A1D-AF34-20C786E3D7E4%40reala.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.
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Robin Whittleton

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Feb 14, 2022, 12:55:14 PM2/14/22

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This is the markup as stands. You mean that we should have a title/epigraph header, then move the dedication to after that?

-Robin

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Alex Cabal

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Feb 14, 2022, 4:07:21 PM2/14/22

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Did you mean to include the source here?

Robin Whittleton

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Feb 14, 2022, 4:11:42 PM2/14/22

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I really did 🤦‍♂️ https://github.com/robinwhittleton/beatrix-potter_short-fiction/blob/fee266022a253df7c4ac6f9f07af379704ff93ce/src/epub/text/the-tailor-of-gloucester.xhtml#L10-L24

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Alex Cabal

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Feb 14, 2022, 4:26:59 PM2/14/22

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Yeah because the dedication is unusually long, I would put both the
epigraph and dedication in a sub section, then the story body can be in
its own sub section without a header. That way <header> is not necessary
either.

Robin Whittleton

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Apr 28, 2022, 11:36:36 AM4/28/22

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Back on this after a break. Current problem is image quality in “The Tailor of Gloucester”. Archive.org has 5 different scans listed as in PD, but they’re all pretty bad and some of them are dreadful. Compare and contrast:

The best of the bunch to my eyes is https://archive.org/details/tailorofgloucest00pottuoft/page/n5/mode/1up . But it doesn’t have a publishing date in the front. Given that these are reprints of a book with a known publishing date (see https://archive.org/details/tailorofgloucest0000pott/page/n7/mode/1up) can I use it anyway Alex?

-Robin

Alex Cabal

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Apr 28, 2022, 11:38:41 AM4/28/22

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For the images, sure. It's easy enough to see if an image in a later
reprint is the same as a PD edition. But, please confirm that all of
them are identical to a PD edition.

On 4/28/22 10:36 AM, Robin Whittleton wrote:
> Back on this after a break. Current problem is image quality in “The

> Tailor of Gloucester”. Archive.org <http://Archive.org> has 5 different

> scans listed as in PD, but they’re all pretty bad and some of them are
> dreadful. Compare and contrast:
>

> <https://archive.org/details/b1005970/page/n7/mode/2up>
>
>
> The best of the bunch to my eyes is
> https://archive.org/details/tailorofgloucest00pottuoft/page/n5/mode/1up
> <https://archive.org/details/tailorofgloucest00pottuoft/page/n5/mode/1up> .
> But it doesn’t have a publishing date in the front. Given that these are
> reprints of a book with a known publishing date (see
> https://archive.org/details/tailorofgloucest0000pott/page/n7/mode/1up

> <https://archive.org/details/tailorofgloucest0000pott/page/n7/mode/1up>)

> can I use it anyway Alex?
>
> -Robin
>
>> On 29 Dec 2021, at 13:51, Robin Whittleton <ro...@reala.net

>> <mailto:ro...@reala.net>> wrote:
>>
>> 22 of the 23 books are in US PD and the last won’t arrive for a few
>> years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatrix_Potter#Publications
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatrix_Potter#Publications> .
>> Something we’d want? It wouldn’t be a difficult compilation, so I’d be
>> happy to add it to the moderate list and leave it to someone else as
>> their first compilation instead.
>>
>> -Robin
>

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David Grigg

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Apr 28, 2022, 7:56:47 PM4/28/22

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If they are in PD because of the book publication, why not use screen shots of the images in the Tate?

https://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/potter-illustrations-for-the-tailor-of-gloucester-65490/22

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Robin Whittleton

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Apr 29, 2022, 1:05:51 AM4/29/22

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I had no idea they existed! That solves that problem then 😁

On 29 Apr 2022, at 01:56, David Grigg <david...@gmail.com> wrote:

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/abbaa444-88be-4e5e-b799-571a01631d37%40Spark.

Robin Whittleton

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Jun 29, 2022, 1:23:55 PM6/29/22

to Standard Ebooks

This production is going to take a while to get through. Each book requires a bunch of images to be colour adjusted, cropped, tidied and have alt text written. So far I’ve done six of the twenty books for 161 illustrations, so we’ll be looking at ~540 in the end. It’s still fun, but I’m breaking it with other smaller productions to make sure I don’t get fed up.

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Robin Whittleton

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Aug 13, 2022, 3:29:06 AM8/13/22

to Standard Ebooks

Next question: Fierce Bad Rabbit only has one scan on Archive and one on Hathi, both are by F. Warne & Co. and neither have an official publication date in the scans. I’ve found a scan of a journal advertising F. Warne’s edition of Fierce Bad Rabbit dated to 1910. The Gutenberg transcription seems to have taken their images from the scan on archive.org, judging by the cover image. I also found a more modern edition on archive.org that’s available to borrow; their colophon says that it was first published in 1906 and that this new edition is based on new scans of Potter’s original watercolours, which are the same (albeit slightly better quality) images that appear in the other scan.

Does all of this add up to us being able to use the Hathi images without that book having a specific publication date inside it?

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Alex Cabal

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Aug 13, 2022, 1:38:26 PM8/13/22

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Yes, I think that makes sense.

On 8/13/22 2:28 AM, Robin Whittleton wrote:
> Next question: /Fierce Bad Rabbit /only has one scan on Archive
> <https://archive.org/details/storyoffiercebad00pott> and one on Hathi
> <https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/011001828>, both are by F. Warne

> & Co. and neither have an official publication date in the scans. I’ve

> found a scan of a journal advertising F. Warne’s edition of /Fierce Bad
> Rabbit/
> <https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Publishers_Circular_and_Booksellers/XdEPfy9CMIkC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22fierce+bad+rabbit%22&pg=PA615&printsec=frontcover>//dated

> to 1910. The Gutenberg transcription

> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45265> seems to have taken their
> images from the scan on archive.org <http://archive.org>, judging by the

> cover image. I also found a more modern edition on

> <https://archive.org/details/storyoffiercebad0000pott>archive.org
> <http://archive.org> that’s available to borrow; their colophon says

> that it was first published in 1906 and that this new edition is based
> on new scans of Potter’s original watercolours, which are the same
> (albeit slightly better quality) images that appear in the other scan.
>
> Does all of this add up to us being able to use the Hathi images without
> that book having a specific publication date inside it?
>
>> On 29 Jun 2022, at 19:23, Robin Whittleton <ro...@reala.net

>> <mailto:ro...@reala.net>> wrote:
>>
>> This production is going to take a while to get through. Each book
>> requires a bunch of images to be colour adjusted, cropped, tidied and
>> have alt text written. So far I’ve done six of the twenty books for
>> 161 illustrations, so we’ll be looking at ~540 in the end. It’s still
>> fun, but I’m breaking it with other smaller productions to make sure I
>> don’t get fed up.
>>
>>> On 29 Apr 2022, at 06:05, Robin Whittleton <ro...@reala.net

>>> <mailto:ro...@reala.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I had no idea they existed! That solves that problem then 😁
>>>
>>>> On 29 Apr 2022, at 01:56, David Grigg <david...@gmail.com

>>>> <mailto:david...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If they are in PD because of the book publication, why not use
>>>> screen shots of the images in the Tate?
>>>>
>>>> https://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/potter-illustrations-for-the-tailor-of-gloucester-65490/22
>>>> <https://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/potter-illustrations-for-the-tailor-of-gloucester-65490/22>
>>>> On 29 Apr 2022, 1:38 AM +1000, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org

>>>> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>, wrote:
>>>>> For the images, sure. It's easy enough to see if an image in a later
>>>>> reprint is the same as a PD edition. But, please confirm that all of
>>>>> them are identical to a PD edition.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/28/22 10:36 AM, Robin Whittleton wrote:
>>>>>> Back on this after a break. Current problem is image quality in “The

>>>>>> Tailor of Gloucester”. Archive.org <http://archive.org/>
>>>>>> <http://Archive.org <http://archive.org/>> has 5 different

>>>>>>> <mailto:ro...@reala.net <mailto:ro...@reala.net>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 22 of the 23 books are in US PD and the last won’t arrive for a few
>>>>>>> years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatrix_Potter#Publications
>>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatrix_Potter#Publications>
>>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatrix_Potter#Publications
>>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatrix_Potter#Publications>> .
>>>>>>> Something we’d want? It wouldn’t be a difficult compilation, so
>>>>>>> I’d be
>>>>>>> happy to add it to the moderate list and leave it to someone else as
>>>>>>> their first compilation instead.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Robin
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>>> Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>>>> an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com
>>>>>> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>

>>>>>> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com

>>>>>> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>>.
>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/140F1C71-D1F3-4AE0-91D1-D2A6828F2709%40reala.net
>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/140F1C71-D1F3-4AE0-91D1-D2A6828F2709%40reala.net>

>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/140F1C71-D1F3-4AE0-91D1-D2A6828F2709%40reala.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer

>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/140F1C71-D1F3-4AE0-91D1-D2A6828F2709%40reala.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.
>>>>>
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>>>>> send an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com

>>>>> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.
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>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/45b259cc-d468-feb3-2fd7-9e791bb2f85b%40standardebooks.org
>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/45b259cc-d468-feb3-2fd7-9e791bb2f85b%40standardebooks.org>.

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>>>
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>>
>>
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Robin Whittleton

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Aug 18, 2022, 2:12:50 PM8/18/22

to Standard Ebooks

OK, let’s argue one step further, and please absolutely tell me this goes too far :)

The Story of Miss Moppet was released at the same time as Fierce Bad Rabbit and in the same style of binding. The journal previously mentioned has both of them in there. There is also a reissue, with the same text in the colophon about how it’s rescans of Beatrix Potter’s original illustrations, the same as Fierce Bad Rabbit. The Gutenberg version has illustrations that presumably passed the PD test, which is what I’m currently using.

So, hear me out, but given that we have a reissue with decent illustrations, that are listed as rescans of the original, and we have “PD proof” in the form of Gutenberg usage, would it be OK to take the images from the modern book on archive.org that match up with an image from the PG edition and use them in our edition of Miss Moppet?

If not then no problem, I’ll just carry on with the illustrations from Gutenberg.

Here’s the colophon from the 1987 edition I’m proposing to use:

-Robin

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Alex Cabal

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Aug 18, 2022, 4:40:24 PM8/18/22

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If they're identical images, then yes you can use them

On 8/18/22 1:12 PM, Robin Whittleton wrote:
> OK, let’s argue one step further, and please absolutely tell me this
> goes too far :)
>

> /The Story of Miss Moppet/ was released at the same time as /Fierce Bad
> Rabbit /and in the same style of binding. The journal previously
> mentioned
> <https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Publishers_Circular_and_Booksellers/XdEPfy9CMIkC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22fierce+bad+rabbit%22&pg=PA615&printsec=frontcover> has

> both of them in there. There is also a reissue

> <https://archive.org/details/storyofmissmoppe1987pott>, with the same

> text in the colophon about how it’s rescans of Beatrix Potter’s original

> illustrations, the same as /Fierce Bad Rabbit/. The Gutenberg version
> <https://www.gutenberg.org/files/14848/14848-h/14848-h.htm> has

> illustrations that presumably passed the PD test, which is what I’m
> currently using.
>
> So, hear me out, but given that we have a reissue with decent
> illustrations, that are listed as rescans of the original, and we have
> “PD proof” in the form of Gutenberg usage, would it be OK to take the

> images from the modern book on archive.org <http://archive.org> that

> match up with an image from the PG edition and use them in our edition

> of /Miss Moppet/?

>
> If not then no problem, I’ll just carry on with the illustrations from
> Gutenberg.
>
> Here’s the colophon from the 1987 edition I’m proposing to use:
>
>

> -Robin
>
>> On 13 Aug 2022, at 19:38, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org

>> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Yes, I think that makes sense.
>>
>> On 8/13/22 2:28 AM, Robin Whittleton wrote:
>>> Next question: /Fierce Bad Rabbit /only has one scan on Archive
>>> <https://archive.org/details/storyoffiercebad00pott
>>> <https://archive.org/details/storyoffiercebad00pott>> and one on
>>> Hathi <https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/011001828
>>> <https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/011001828>>, both are by F.
>>> Warne & Co. and neither have an official publication date in the
>>> scans. I’ve found a scan of a journal advertising F. Warne’s edition
>>> of /Fierce Bad Rabbit/
>>> <https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Publishers_Circular_and_Booksellers/XdEPfy9CMIkC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22fierce+bad+rabbit%22&pg=PA615&printsec=frontcover
>>> <https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Publishers_Circular_and_Booksellers/XdEPfy9CMIkC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22fierce+bad+rabbit%22&pg=PA615&printsec=frontcover>>//dated
>>> to 1910. The Gutenberg transcription
>>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45265
>>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45265>> seems to have taken their
>>> images from the scan on archive.org <http://archive.org>

>>> <http://archive.org <http://archive.org>>, judging by the cover

>>> image. I also found a more modern edition on
>>> <https://archive.org/details/storyoffiercebad0000pott
>>> <https://archive.org/details/storyoffiercebad0000pott>>archive.org

>>> <http://archive.org> <http://archive.org <http://archive.org>> that’s

>>> available to borrow; their colophon says that it was first published
>>> in 1906 and that this new edition is based on new scans of Potter’s
>>> original watercolours, which are the same (albeit slightly better
>>> quality) images that appear in the other scan.
>>> Does all of this add up to us being able to use the Hathi images
>>> without that book having a specific publication date inside it?
>>>> On 29 Jun 2022, at 19:23, Robin Whittleton <ro...@reala.net

>>>> <mailto:ro...@reala.net> <mailto:ro...@reala.net
>>>> <mailto:ro...@reala.net>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This production is going to take a while to get through. Each book
>>>> requires a bunch of images to be colour adjusted, cropped, tidied
>>>> and have alt text written. So far I’ve done six of the twenty books
>>>> for 161 illustrations, so we’ll be looking at ~540 in the end. It’s
>>>> still fun, but I’m breaking it with other smaller productions to
>>>> make sure I don’t get fed up.
>>>>
>>>>> On 29 Apr 2022, at 06:05, Robin Whittleton <ro...@reala.net

>>>>> <mailto:ro...@reala.net> <mailto:ro...@reala.net
>>>>> <mailto:ro...@reala.net>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I had no idea they existed! That solves that problem then 😁
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 29 Apr 2022, at 01:56, David Grigg <david...@gmail.com

>>>>>> <mailto:david...@gmail.com> <mailto:david...@gmail.com

>>>>>> <mailto:david...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If they are in PD because of the book publication, why not use
>>>>>> screen shots of the images in the Tate?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/potter-illustrations-for-the-tailor-of-gloucester-65490/22
>>>>>> <https://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/potter-illustrations-for-the-tailor-of-gloucester-65490/22>
>>>>>> <https://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/potter-illustrations-for-the-tailor-of-gloucester-65490/22
>>>>>> <https://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/potter-illustrations-for-the-tailor-of-gloucester-65490/22>>
>>>>>> On 29 Apr 2022, 1:38 AM +1000, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org

>>>>>> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org

>>>>>> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>>, wrote:
>>>>>>> For the images, sure. It's easy enough to see if an image in a later
>>>>>>> reprint is the same as a PD edition. But, please confirm that all of
>>>>>>> them are identical to a PD edition.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/28/22 10:36 AM, Robin Whittleton wrote:
>>>>>>>> Back on this after a break. Current problem is image quality in “The

>>>>>>>> Tailor of Gloucester”. Archive.org <http://Archive.org>
>>>>>>>> <http://archive.org/ <http://archive.org/>> <http://Archive.org
>>>>>>>> <http://Archive.org> <http://archive.org/

>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/45b259cc-d468-feb3-2fd7-9e791bb2f85b%40standardebooks.org
>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/45b259cc-d468-feb3-2fd7-9e791bb2f85b%40standardebooks.org>

>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/45b259cc-d468-feb3-2fd7-9e791bb2f85b%40standardebooks.org
>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/45b259cc-d468-feb3-2fd7-9e791bb2f85b%40standardebooks.org>>.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
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>>>>>> send an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com
>>>>>> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>

>>>>>> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
>>>>>> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>>.
>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit

>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/abbaa444-88be-4e5e-b799-571a01631d37%40Spark
>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/abbaa444-88be-4e5e-b799-571a01631d37%40Spark>
>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/abbaa444-88be-4e5e-b799-571a01631d37%40Spark?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer

>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/abbaa444-88be-4e5e-b799-571a01631d37%40Spark?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.
>>>>>
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>>>>> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
>>>>> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>>.
>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit

>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/6F5B2FB6-70D5-4A53-B22F-7D8EA845EA94%40reala.net
>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/6F5B2FB6-70D5-4A53-B22F-7D8EA845EA94%40reala.net>
>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/6F5B2FB6-70D5-4A53-B22F-7D8EA845EA94%40reala.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer

>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/6F5B2FB6-70D5-4A53-B22F-7D8EA845EA94%40reala.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.
>>>>
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>>>> send an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com
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>>>> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>>.
>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit

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>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/C9C35439-8575-49A6-93AA-F490D5BAD918%40reala.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer

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Robin Whittleton

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Sep 24, 2022, 5:06:54 AM9/24/22

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The best scans I with a PD copyright page that I can find of The Tale of the Flopsy Bunnies are from Google: https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Tale_of_the_Flopsy_Bunnies/0i81Lga5LM8C . But it says Copyright 1908, copyright renewed 1937. They’re the same images as in https://archive.org/details/taleofflopsybunn0000beat which has a 1909. I assume I’m OK to use them, but worth double-checking.

-Robin

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Alex Cabal

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Sep 24, 2022, 5:31:19 PM9/24/22

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Yes, that's fine.

On 9/24/22 4:06 AM, Robin Whittleton wrote:
> The best scans I with a PD copyright page that I can find of /The Tale
> of the Flopsy Bunnies/ are from Google:

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/F9A1DA64-6B06-4D01-A08D-DCD2D26300FB%40reala.net
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/F9A1DA64-6B06-4D01-A08D-DCD2D26300FB%40reala.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

Robin Whittleton

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Oct 9, 2022, 7:13:13 AM10/9/22

to Standard Ebooks

Quick update: I’ve prepped images and alt text for 15 of the 20 stories now, taking me up to 393 images total (here’s the LoI). Hopefully the last stories won’t take quite as long as the first few. Once I’ve finished these I’m going to revisit the first few books to see if there are any changes I’d want to make now that I’ve got more experience in these stories.

After that I’m planning to spend some time revisiting our full-page CSS to see if there are any improvements to be made there, given more modern possibilities.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cb3ab4e6-318d-d8a3-de76-7dc4dc95a4cf%40standardebooks.org.

B Keith

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Oct 9, 2022, 10:20:19 AM10/9/22

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HI Robin,

I’e been doing some work in accessibility lately and found this resource. It's got a handy checklist for reviewing alt text in regards to accessibility. I don’t know if that would be helpful but here it is…

https://apln.ca/guide-for-reviewing-image-descriptions/

Bruce

_________

Gaudeamus igitur iuvenes dum sumus

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Robin Whittleton

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Oct 9, 2022, 10:57:43 AM10/9/22

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Thanks, will review! A large part of my job is accessibility advocacy and advice, but I typically don’t go deep into the actual writing of alt text so it’s always good to get input from a variety of sources.

On 9 Oct 2022, at 16:20, B Keith <bois...@gmail.com> wrote:

HI Robin,

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/3651C5BF-9244-47A8-8E58-31ADAD362C08%40gmail.com.

Robin Whittleton

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Nov 21, 2022, 2:38:04 PM11/21/22

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OK, all the images are done and the alt text written. I realised I’d missed some black+white SVGs earlier in the process, so the toolchain has gained a new shift-illustrations command too (presumably arriving in the next release). There’s a couple of things remaining to do though.

First, I need to rework the full-page figure code. It wasn’t expecting a figcaption, and so that always moves onto the next page. There also seems to be a bug in current Apple Books that’s splitting the image onto two pages. This isn’t easy to debug, as Apple seems to have removed the ability to connect debugging tools to it in the last couple of versions. Ideally I’ll work out a better, more stable, full-page class, but we’ll see.

Secondly, I’m tempted to add another class to vertically centre the text where the original book had it (e.g. where there’s one or two small sentences between full page images). But that’ll wait until I’ve fixed the full page images.

-Robin

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Vince

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Nov 21, 2022, 3:39:37 PM11/21/22

to Standard Ebooks

Yes, I ran into both of those with Pillars of Wisdom last year, and never got back to looking at it. I didn’t/don’t know enough about image CSS (or, let’s be honest, CSS in general) to know whether the problem was with Books or with the CSS or both. (I have no other ereader to compare to.) Glad you’re on the case!

Alex Cabal

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Nov 21, 2022, 3:41:56 PM11/21/22

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I recall looking into it in depth at the time, because it also occurred
in Hull House. Back then I concluded there was no better
ereader-friendly CSS solution to the problem in the general case - there
just wasn't a way to size the caption first and fill the rest of the
viewport with the image without overflowing the viewport. Flex/grid
*may* have been able to solve it but we can't rely on them in ereaders.
Maybe Robin can think of something.

On 11/21/22 2:39 PM, Vince wrote:
> Yes, I ran into both of those with /Pillars of Wisdom/ last year, and

> never got back to looking at it. I didn’t/don’t know enough about image
> CSS (or, let’s be honest, CSS in general) to know whether the problem
> was with Books or with the CSS or both. (I have no other ereader to
> compare to.) Glad you’re on the case!
>
>> On Nov 21, 2022, at 1:37 PM, Robin Whittleton <ro...@reala.net

>> <mailto:ro...@reala.net>> wrote:
>>
>> OK, all the images are done and the alt text written. I realised I’d
>> missed some black+white SVGs earlier in the process, so the toolchain
>> has gained a new shift-illustrations command too (presumably arriving
>> in the next release). There’s a couple of things remaining to do though.
>>
>> First, I need to rework the full-page figure code. It wasn’t expecting
>> a figcaption, and so that always moves onto the next page. There also
>> seems to be a bug in current Apple Books that’s splitting the image
>> onto two pages. This isn’t easy to debug, as Apple seems to have
>> removed the ability to connect debugging tools to it in the last
>> couple of versions. Ideally I’ll work out a better, more stable,
>> full-page class, but we’ll see.
>>
>> Secondly, I’m tempted to add another class to vertically centre the
>> text where the original book had it (e.g. where there’s one or two
>> small sentences between full page images). But that’ll wait until I’ve
>> fixed the full page images.
>

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Vince

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Nov 21, 2022, 3:54:15 PM11/21/22

to Standard Ebooks

Yes, you did work on it (around the time of Negro Explorer at the South Pole, which had similar issues), but neither the before or after worked in Books, which makes looking at both books' illustrations on an iPad something of a bummer (probably others as well, I just haven’t read other SE books with illustrations). If it is a Books/WebKit problem, even if we can figure out something to do in build to workaround the issue like we do with a couple of other of their issues, it would be of great benefit to our readers.

Alex Cabal

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Nov 21, 2022, 3:56:04 PM11/21/22

to standar...@googlegroups.com

It's not a webkit problem, it's a CSS problem. There was no way in CSS
to achieve exactly what we want, given the constraint of keeping the CSS
ereader-friendly.

On 11/21/22 2:54 PM, Vince wrote:
> Yes, you did work on it (around the time of /Negro Explorer at the South
> Pole/, which had similar issues), but neither the before or after worked
> in Books, which makes looking atboth books' illustrations on an iPad

> something of a bummer (probably others as well, I just haven’t read
> other SE books with illustrations). If it is a Books/WebKit problem,
> even if we can figure out something to do in build to workaround the
> issue like we do with a couple of other of their issues, it would be of
> great benefit to our readers.
>
>> On Nov 21, 2022, at 2:41 PM, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org

>> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>> wrote:
>>
>> I recall looking into it in depth at the time, because it also
>> occurred in Hull House. Back then I concluded there was no better
>> ereader-friendly CSS solution to the problem in the general case -
>> there just wasn't a way to size the caption first and fill the rest of
>> the viewport with the image without overflowing the viewport.
>> Flex/grid *may* have been able to solve it but we can't rely on them
>> in ereaders. Maybe Robin can think of something.
>>
>> On 11/21/22 2:39 PM, Vince wrote:
>>> Yes, I ran into both of those with /Pillars of Wisdom/ last year, and
>>> never got back to looking at it. I didn’t/don’t know enough about
>>> image CSS (or, let’s be honest, CSS in general) to know whether the
>>> problem was with Books or with the CSS or both. (I have no other
>>> ereader to compare to.) Glad you’re on the case!
>>>> On Nov 21, 2022, at 1:37 PM, Robin Whittleton <ro...@reala.net

>>>> <mailto:ro...@reala.net> <mailto:ro...@reala.net

>>>> <mailto:ro...@reala.net>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> OK, all the images are done and the alt text written. I realised I’d
>>>> missed some black+white SVGs earlier in the process, so the
>>>> toolchain has gained a new shift-illustrations command too
>>>> (presumably arriving in the next release). There’s a couple of
>>>> things remaining to do though.
>>>>
>>>> First, I need to rework the full-page figure code. It wasn’t
>>>> expecting a figcaption, and so that always moves onto the next page.
>>>> There also seems to be a bug in current Apple Books that’s splitting
>>>> the image onto two pages. This isn’t easy to debug, as Apple seems
>>>> to have removed the ability to connect debugging tools to it in the
>>>> last couple of versions. Ideally I’ll work out a better, more
>>>> stable, full-page class, but we’ll see.
>>>>
>>>> Secondly, I’m tempted to add another class to vertically centre the
>>>> text where the original book had it (e.g. where there’s one or two
>>>> small sentences between full page images). But that’ll wait until
>>>> I’ve fixed the full page images.
>

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Vince

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Nov 21, 2022, 4:50:34 PM11/21/22

to Standard Ebooks

Robin said:

There also seems to be a bug in current Apple Books that’s splitting the image onto two pages.

I understand we may not be able to solve the problem(s) for all ereaders, but if we can improve it for some of them, we should.

Robin Whittleton

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Nov 30, 2022, 4:07:51 PM11/30/22

to Standard Ebooks

So, I’ve tried a bunch of stuff here and the tl;dr is: I’m yet to find a working solution. But anyway:

1. I’ve got CSS that should work to allow for figcaption and an image to preferentially take up space inside a 100vh container. This looks like this:

figure {

margin: 0;

display: flex;

flex-direction: column;

height: 100vh;

}

img {

height: 0;

object-fit: contain;

flex-grow: 1;

}

The idea is that you set the image to zero (or at least a non-percentage) height, then use flex-grow to tell it to flex to as high as reasonable, which is all the space minus the natural space for any other element.

This works in browsers, but surprise surprise it doesn’t work in Apple Books: it stubbornly refuses to grow the image. So if you set it to 0, or 100px, or 1000px it’ll take that size.

2. I played around with grid layout on the off-chance that that would have a solution, and found one that works in browsers:

figure {

margin: 0;

display: grid;

grid-auto-rows: auto;

height: 100vh;

}

img {

height: 100%;

object-fit: contain;

}

This is even easier to understand: grid layout will just automatically allocate space. But yep, completely broken in Books: the image is again split over the page boundary, and the figcaption floats in the middle of its own page.

3. I tried spinning up a VM with an old version of macOS on it to test in a version of Books that you can connect dev tools to but couldn’t get that working. I also dug an old Macbook out of storage, but unfortunately the Books on that was too new to allow for dev tools connection. So all this has to be done flying blind. (For better or worse I filed a request with Apple to allow for dev tools access in ”modern” Apple Books, but I’m not holding my breath there.)

So, I’m not sure what’s next. At least we’ve got a potential solution if we ever do want to update this code, but Apple Books is just intransigent.

-Robin

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Alex Cabal

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Dec 1, 2022, 12:56:30 AM12/1/22

to standar...@googlegroups.com

Yes, I came to the same conclusion. It simply isn't possible using CSS
in today's ereaders. iBooks is basically the best renderer we have and I
when I was investigating the issue I still couldn't find a solution that
worked there.

When I was looking at it, grid wasn't an option yet. But your grid
solution looks like the most natural. We could add it to the boilerplate
CSS using a media query, so when grid does eventually get support in
ereaders (maybe in a few decades?) then it would already work.

>> for/all/ ereaders, but if we can improve it for some of them, we should.

>>
>>
>>> On Nov 21, 2022, at 2:55 PM, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org

>>> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>> It's not a webkit problem, it's a CSS problem. There was no way in
>>> CSS to achieve exactly what we want, given the constraint of keeping
>>> the CSS ereader-friendly.
>>>
>>> On 11/21/22 2:54 PM, Vince wrote:
>>>> Yes, you did work on it (around the time of /Negro Explorer at the
>>>> South Pole/, which had similar issues), but neither the before or
>>>> after worked in Books, which makes looking atboth
>>>> books' illustrations on an iPad something of a bummer (probably
>>>> others as well, I just haven’t read other SE books with
>>>> illustrations). If it is a Books/WebKit problem, even if we can
>>>> figure out something to do in build to workaround the issue like we
>>>> do with a couple of other of their issues, it would be of great
>>>> benefit to our readers.
>>>>> On Nov 21, 2022, at 2:41 PM, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org

>>>>> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org><mailto:al...@standardebooks.org

>>>>> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I recall looking into it in depth at the time, because it also
>>>>> occurred in Hull House. Back then I concluded there was no better
>>>>> ereader-friendly CSS solution to the problem in the general case -
>>>>> there just wasn't a way to size the caption first and fill the rest
>>>>> of the viewport with the image without overflowing the viewport.
>>>>> Flex/grid *may* have been able to solve it but we can't rely on
>>>>> them in ereaders. Maybe Robin can think of something.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/21/22 2:39 PM, Vince wrote:
>>>>>> Yes, I ran into both of those with /Pillars of Wisdom/ last year,
>>>>>> and never got back to looking at it. I didn’t/don’t know enough
>>>>>> about image CSS (or, let’s be honest, CSS in general) to know
>>>>>> whether the problem was with Books or with the CSS or both. (I
>>>>>> have no other ereader to compare to.) Glad you’re on the case!
>>>>>>> On Nov 21, 2022, at 1:37 PM, Robin Whittleton <ro...@reala.net
>>>>>>> <mailto:ro...@reala.net><mailto:ro...@reala.net

>>>>>>> <mailto:ro...@reala.net>> <mailto:ro...@reala.net

>>>>>>> <mailto:ro...@reala.net><mailto:ro...@reala.net
>>>>>>> <mailto:ro...@reala.net>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> OK, all the images are done and the alt text written. I realised
>>>>>>> I’d missed some black+white SVGs earlier in the process, so the
>>>>>>> toolchain has gained a new shift-illustrations command too
>>>>>>> (presumably arriving in the next release). There’s a couple of
>>>>>>> things remaining to do though.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> First, I need to rework the full-page figure code. It wasn’t
>>>>>>> expecting a figcaption, and so that always moves onto the next
>>>>>>> page. There also seems to be a bug in current Apple Books that’s
>>>>>>> splitting the image onto two pages. This isn’t easy to debug, as
>>>>>>> Apple seems to have removed the ability to connect debugging
>>>>>>> tools to it in the last couple of versions. Ideally I’ll work out
>>>>>>> a better, more stable, full-page class, but we’ll see.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Secondly, I’m tempted to add another class to vertically centre
>>>>>>> the text where the original book had it (e.g. where there’s one
>>>>>>> or two small sentences between full page images). But that’ll
>>>>>>> wait until I’ve fixed the full page images.
>>
>>
>> --
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>> Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
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Robin Whittleton

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Dec 3, 2022, 9:44:43 AM12/3/22

to Standard Ebooks

In the end I’ve removed the flexbox styles completely. Here’s Books with flex (or grid) applied:

And here’s the same, with the flexbox code removed (leaving just the standard full-page code):

No question really. So, on to proofing.

-Robin

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Robin Whittleton

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Dec 27, 2022, 2:51:10 AM12/27/22

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Right! After nearly exactly a year (and by far the most complex 45k word production I’ve done) this I think is ready for review. Repo: https://github.com/robinwhittleton/beatrix-potter_short-fiction . Production notes:

As discussed earlier in the thread, this contains images. 602 of them. These fit into either full-page colour JPGs, or inline woodblock SVGs. I’ve included all the images in each production with the exception of small titlepage decorative images, and those advertising other books in the series.
Each image had comprehensive alt text written for it. I added a “wat” role for myself, and we now lint for this if there’s alt text in the production.
The SVGs sometimes have different widths in the source material compared to the text width. I’ve defaulted them all to 100% width, and set alternative widths where appropriate. There’s also one book with floated images.
The colour JPGs have been tweaked where appropriate to get the best colours out of old prints and remove yellowing (to varying degrees of quality). I’ve also removed shadowing in corners where the image isn’t rectangular.
Each book typically has a dedication, which has been replicated as best as possible.
There’s a few other specific pieces of styling to match the books, notably the introduction of Peter Rabbit and siblings.
Built file size is 118MB 😅 I could investigate higher compression ratios for the images if this is deemed necessary.
I’ve reviewed typogrify: all the current recommended changes are intentionally as they are.

One thing I haven’t done is attempt to match the vertically centred per-page text blocks that exist in some of the books, given the difficulties we’ve had with page breaks. I considered adding page divs anyway, but it would be the same amount of work to retrofit them later as it would be to do them now. So in the interests of getting this out…

-Robin

On 3 Dec 2022, at 15:44, Robin Whittleton <ro...@reala.net> wrote:

In the end I’ve removed the flexbox styles completely. Here’s Books with flex (or grid) applied:

<Screenshot 2022-12-03 at 15.37.23.png>

And here’s the same, with the flexbox code removed (leaving just the standard full-page code):

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Alex Cabal

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Dec 27, 2022, 2:55:48 AM12/27/22

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Yikes, 118mb is going to be too much for an epub. We should definitely
lower the resolution of some of these images, and save them with higher
jpg compression if possible. You can also try running the SVGs through
svgo to compress them, though I don't know how much difference that
would make considering our requirements for SVG internal structure.

On 12/27/22 1:50 AM, Robin Whittleton wrote:
> Right! After nearly exactly a year (and by far the most complex 45k word
> production I’ve done) this I think is ready for review. Repo:
> https://github.com/robinwhittleton/beatrix-potter_short-fiction
> <https://github.com/robinwhittleton/beatrix-potter_short-fiction> .
> Production notes:
>

> * As discussed earlier in the thread, this contains images. 602 of

> them. These fit into either full-page colour JPGs, or inline
> woodblock SVGs. I’ve included all the images in each production with
> the exception of small titlepage decorative images, and those
> advertising other books in the series.

> * Each image had comprehensive alt text written for it. I added a

> “wat” role for myself, and we now lint for this if there’s alt text
> in the production.

> * The SVGs sometimes have different widths in the source material

> compared to the text width. I’ve defaulted them all to 100% width,
> and set alternative widths where appropriate. There’s also one book
> with floated images.

> * The colour JPGs have been tweaked where appropriate to get the best

> colours out of old prints and remove yellowing (to varying degrees
> of quality). I’ve also removed shadowing in corners where the image
> isn’t rectangular.

> * Each book typically has a dedication, which has been replicated as
> best as possible.
> * There’s a few other specific pieces of styling to match the books,

> notably the introduction of Peter Rabbit and siblings.

> * Built file size is 118MB 😅 I could investigate higher compression

> ratios for the images if this is deemed necessary.

> * I’ve reviewed typogrify: all the current recommended changes are

>>>>>> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org><mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
>>>>>> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's not a webkit problem, it's a CSS problem. There was no way in
>>>>>> CSS to achieve exactly what we want, given the constraint of
>>>>>> keeping the CSS ereader-friendly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/21/22 2:54 PM, Vince wrote:
>>>>>>> Yes, you did work on it (around the time of /Negro Explorer at
>>>>>>> the South Pole/, which had similar issues), but neither the
>>>>>>> before or after worked in Books, which makes looking atboth
>>>>>>> books' illustrations on an iPad something of a bummer (probably
>>>>>>> others as well, I just haven’t read other SE books with
>>>>>>> illustrations). If it is a Books/WebKit problem, even if we can
>>>>>>> figure out something to do in build to workaround the issue like
>>>>>>> we do with a couple of other of their issues, it would be of
>>>>>>> great benefit to our readers.
>>>>>>>> On Nov 21, 2022, at 2:41 PM, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org
>>>>>>>> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org><mailto:al...@standardebooks.org

>>>>>>>> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>><mailto:al...@standardebooks.org

>>>>>>>> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org><mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
>>>>>>>> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I recall looking into it in depth at the time, because it also
>>>>>>>> occurred in Hull House. Back then I concluded there was no
>>>>>>>> better ereader-friendly CSS solution to the problem in the
>>>>>>>> general case - there just wasn't a way to size the caption first
>>>>>>>> and fill the rest of the viewport with the image without
>>>>>>>> overflowing the viewport. Flex/grid *may* have been able to
>>>>>>>> solve it but we can't rely on them in ereaders. Maybe Robin can
>>>>>>>> think of something.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 11/21/22 2:39 PM, Vince wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Yes, I ran into both of those with /Pillars of Wisdom/ last
>>>>>>>>> year, and never got back to looking at it. I didn’t/don’t know
>>>>>>>>> enough about image CSS (or, let’s be honest, CSS in general) to
>>>>>>>>> know whether the problem was with Books or with the CSS or
>>>>>>>>> both. (I have no other ereader to compare to.) Glad you’re on
>>>>>>>>> the case!
>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 21, 2022, at 1:37 PM, Robin Whittleton <ro...@reala.net
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:ro...@reala.net><mailto:ro...@reala.net
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:ro...@reala.net>><mailto:ro...@reala.net
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:ro...@reala.net><mailto:ro...@reala.net

>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:ro...@reala.net>>> <mailto:ro...@reala.net

>>>>> send an emailtostandarde...@googlegroups.com
>>>>> <mailto:tostandardeboo...@googlegroups.com><mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>>.

>>>>> To view this discussion on the

>>>>> webvisithttps://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/F9B079C7-F38E-402D-8D10-208E445FB3A5%40letterboxes.org <visithttps://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/F9B079C7-F38E-402D-8D10-208E445FB3A5%40letterboxes.org><https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/F9B079C7-F38E-402D-8D10-208E445FB3A5%40letterboxes.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/F9B079C7-F38E-402D-8D10-208E445FB3A5%40letterboxes.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

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Robin Whittleton

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Dec 27, 2022, 6:48:52 AM12/27/22

to Standard Ebooks

SVGs are already optimised to within an inch of their lives (and actually further: I had to wind back the optimisation level on 6 of them due to svg2png artefacts). But I’ll investigate the JPG situation of course.

Have you got a file size you’d be aiming for as a reasonable target?

-Robin

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Alex Cabal

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Dec 27, 2022, 1:02:48 PM12/27/22

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Not sure... I think most JPGs shouldn't be more than around 50k or so.
Many of them are in the 300-600k range. We can go pretty far with just
more compression on images like this since there doesn't seem to be much
text if any. We can also just lower the dimensions too if compression
isn't enough.

I don't have a hard answer as to what the right image dimensions are.
The general rule of bigger is better works fine when there's just a few
images, but in this case 118mb per epub would kill most ereaders except
iBooks, and also our bandwidth.

Robin Whittleton

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Dec 27, 2022, 1:35:29 PM12/27/22

to Standard Ebooks

Re-exporting all JPGs with a quality of 60 gets the built size down to 85MB. Dropping it to 40 gets it down to 62MB but it starts looking pretty shonky. So I guess next steps are to go through, resize to a max bounding box of 1000x1000, then export out at 50 quality and see how that comes out as. Time to work on my mogrify skills 🙂

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Robin Whittleton

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Dec 27, 2022, 1:51:27 PM12/27/22

to Standard Ebooks

OK, max dimension of 1000 and -quality 50 leads to a totally readable book (in Apple Books at least) at 47.8MB. Does that sound reasonable to you? Or shall I push on?

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Alex Cabal

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Dec 27, 2022, 2:38:54 PM12/27/22

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What if you take the max down to 800?

>>> visithttps://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/a74a7982-4c7c-bc5e-65db-198bc3088ef6%40standardebooks.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/a74a7982-4c7c-bc5e-65db-198bc3088ef6%40standardebooks.org>.

>>
>>
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Robin Whittleton

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Dec 27, 2022, 3:25:16 PM12/27/22

to Standard Ebooks

Max 800 at quality 50 gives you ~35MB. I haven’t pushed that yet, but will do if you’re OK with that.

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Alex Cabal

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Dec 27, 2022, 3:39:50 PM12/27/22

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OK, I think that's going to work considering the huge amount of
illustrations. Thanks!

>>>>> webvisithttps://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/a74a7982-4c7c-bc5e-65db-198bc3088ef6%40standardebooks.org <visithttps://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/a74a7982-4c7c-bc5e-65db-198bc3088ef6%40standardebooks.org><https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/a74a7982-4c7c-bc5e-65db-198bc3088ef6%40standardebooks.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/a74a7982-4c7c-bc5e-65db-198bc3088ef6%40standardebooks.org>>.

>>>>
>>>>
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Alex Cabal

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Dec 27, 2022, 3:40:19 PM12/27/22

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David, do you have time to review this?

On 12/27/22 2:25 PM, Robin Whittleton wrote:

>>>>> webvisithttps://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/a74a7982-4c7c-bc5e-65db-198bc3088ef6%40standardebooks.org <visithttps://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/a74a7982-4c7c-bc5e-65db-198bc3088ef6%40standardebooks.org><https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/a74a7982-4c7c-bc5e-65db-198bc3088ef6%40standardebooks.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/a74a7982-4c7c-bc5e-65db-198bc3088ef6%40standardebooks.org>>.

>>>>
>>>>
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Robin Whittleton

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Dec 27, 2022, 3:42:17 PM12/27/22

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Good stuff, I’ve pushed that up to the repo.

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David at Standard Ebooks

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Dec 27, 2022, 7:03:58 PM12/27/22

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OK, will review. Might be a few days before I can get to it, though.

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David at Standard Ebooks

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Dec 30, 2022, 8:39:26 PM12/30/22

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Robin:

A few issues, which I've logged to the repository.

Unfortunately, I couldn't get build to run, I get a crash, so I can't test the final built epub on my system.

On 28 Dec 2022 at 11:04 AM +1100, David at Standard Ebooks <standar...@thegriggs.org>, wrote:

OK, will review. Might be a few days before I can get to it, though.On 28 Dec 2022 at 7:40 AM +1100, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org>, wrote:

Robin Whittleton

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Dec 31, 2022, 4:48:39 AM12/31/22

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Thanks, will review these over the next couple of days.

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Robin Whittleton

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Jan 3, 2023, 3:49:28 PM1/3/23

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OK, I’ve addressed those, with the exceptions of:

Mine isn’t crashing on build. I suspect that David’s not got cairo installed corectly.
The core.css differences are because I’m using the current dev version of core.css. Maybe it’s time for a point release? :)
Typogrify is trying to remove non-breaking hyphens, and semanticate is trying to add abbreviations to alt text, so I’m ignoring those.

So I guess this is ready for release?

-Robin

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David at Standard Ebooks

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Jan 4, 2023, 5:35:14 PM1/4/23

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Thanks, Robin, all looks good to me, over to Alex.

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Alex Cabal

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Jan 7, 2023, 2:09:05 AM1/7/23

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I filed a few more notes for you to look at before we release this.
Nothing major

On 1/4/23 4:34 PM, David at Standard Ebooks wrote:
> Thanks, Robin, all looks good to me, over to Alex.
> On 4 Jan 2023 at 7:49 AM +1100, Robin Whittleton <ro...@reala.net>, wrote:
>> OK, I’ve addressed those, with the exceptions of:
>>

>> * Mine isn’t crashing on build. I suspect that David’s not got cairo
>> installed corectly.
>> * The core.css differences are because I’m using the current dev

>> version of core.css. Maybe it’s time for a point release? :)

>> * Typogrify is trying to remove non-breaking hyphens, and

>> semanticate is trying to add abbreviations to alt text, so I’m
>> ignoring those.
>>
>>
>> So I guess this is ready for release?
>>
>> -Robin
>>
>>> On 31 Dec 2022, at 02:39, David at Standard Ebooks
>>> <standar...@thegriggs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Robin:
>>>
>>> A few issues, which I've logged to the repository.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, I couldn't get build to run, I get a crash, so I can't
>>> test the final built epub on my system.
>>> On 28 Dec 2022 at 11:04 AM +1100, David at Standard Ebooks
>>> <standar...@thegriggs.org>, wrote:
>>>
>>> OK, will review. Might be a few days before I can get to it,
>>> though.On 28 Dec 2022 at 7:40 AM +1100, Alex Cabal
>>> <al...@standardebooks.org>, wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
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>>> send an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com

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>>
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Alex Cabal

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Jan 12, 2023, 3:56:04 PM1/12/23

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Alright everything looks good! Excellent work Robin, thanks. I've gone
ahead and released it.

On 1/4/23 4:34 PM, David at Standard Ebooks wrote:

> Thanks, Robin, all looks good to me, over to Alex.
> On 4 Jan 2023 at 7:49 AM +1100, Robin Whittleton <ro...@reala.net>, wrote:
>> OK, I’ve addressed those, with the exceptions of:
>>

>> * Mine isn’t crashing on build. I suspect that David’s not got cairo
>> installed corectly.
>> * The core.css differences are because I’m using the current dev

>> version of core.css. Maybe it’s time for a point release? :)

>> * Typogrify is trying to remove non-breaking hyphens, and

>> semanticate is trying to add abbreviations to alt text, so I’m
>> ignoring those.
>>
>>
>> So I guess this is ready for release?
>>
>> -Robin
>>
>>> On 31 Dec 2022, at 02:39, David at Standard Ebooks
>>> <standar...@thegriggs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Robin:
>>>
>>> A few issues, which I've logged to the repository.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, I couldn't get build to run, I get a crash, so I can't
>>> test the final built epub on my system.
>>> On 28 Dec 2022 at 11:04 AM +1100, David at Standard Ebooks
>>> <standar...@thegriggs.org>, wrote:
>>>
>>> OK, will review. Might be a few days before I can get to it,
>>> though.On 28 Dec 2022 at 7:40 AM +1100, Alex Cabal
>>> <al...@standardebooks.org>, wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
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>>> send an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com

>>> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.

>>> To view this discussion on the web visit

>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/a9412d96-a115-4837-9e22-f5a15a6fe1ae%40Spark <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/a9412d96-a115-4837-9e22-f5a15a6fe1ae%40Spark?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

>>
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Robin Whittleton

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Jan 12, 2023, 4:17:34 PM1/12/23

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Thanks! Was a much bigger production than I’d originally anticipated but it feels good to maintain high quality :)

> On 12 Jan 2023, at 21:56, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org> wrote:
>
> Alright everything looks good! Excellent work Robin, thanks. I've gone ahead and released it.

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C T

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Jan 13, 2023, 11:13:19 AM1/13/23

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I noticed that this one doesn't have 'read on one page' on the site. Is the recompose not working for it?

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/5CAFF968-CAE2-437B-80DB-0B9981904AB1%40reala.net.

Alex Cabal

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Jan 13, 2023, 3:27:30 PM1/13/23

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Weird, it didn't build at first but when I ran it again it did build
successfully. Must have been a fluke!

On 1/13/23 10:12 AM, C T wrote:
> I noticed that this one doesn't have 'read on one page' on the site. Is
> the recompose not working for it?
>
> On Thu, Jan 12, 2023 at 4:17 PM Robin Whittleton <ro...@reala.net
> <mailto:ro...@reala.net>> wrote:
>
> Thanks! Was a much bigger production than I’d originally anticipated
> but it feels good to maintain high quality :)
>
> > On 12 Jan 2023, at 21:56, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org

> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>> wrote:
> >
> > Alright everything looks good! Excellent work Robin, thanks.
> I've gone ahead and released it.
> >
> >> On 1/4/23 4:34 PM, David at Standard Ebooks wrote:
> >> Thanks, Robin, all looks good to me, over to Alex.
> >>> On 4 Jan 2023 at 7:49 AM +1100, Robin Whittleton

> <ro...@reala.net <mailto:ro...@reala.net>>, wrote:
> >>> OK, I’ve addressed those, with the exceptions of:
> >>>
> >>> * Mine isn’t crashing on build. I suspect that David’s not got
> cairo
> >>> installed corectly.
> >>> * The core.css differences are because I’m using the current dev
> >>> version of core.css. Maybe it’s time for a point release? :)
> >>> * Typogrify is trying to remove non-breaking hyphens, and
> >>> semanticate is trying to add abbreviations to alt text, so I’m
> >>> ignoring those.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> So I guess this is ready for release?
> >>>
> >>> -Robin
> >>>
> >>>> On 31 Dec 2022, at 02:39, David at Standard Ebooks

> <standar...@thegriggs.org <mailto:standar...@thegriggs.org>>

> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Robin:
> >>>>
> >>>> A few issues, which I've logged to the repository.
> >>>>
> >>>> Unfortunately, I couldn't get build to run, I get a crash, so
> I can't test the final built epub on my system.
> >>>> On 28 Dec 2022 at 11:04 AM +1100, David at Standard Ebooks
> <standar...@thegriggs.org

> <mailto:standar...@thegriggs.org>>, wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> OK, will review. Might be a few days before I can get to it,
> >>>> though.On 28 Dec 2022 at 7:40 AM +1100, Alex Cabal

> >>>> <al...@standardebooks.org <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>,

> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
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> Google Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
> it, send an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>>.

> >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/a9412d96-a115-4837-9e22-f5a15a6fe1ae%40Spark <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/a9412d96-a115-4837-9e22-f5a15a6fe1ae%40Spark> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/a9412d96-a115-4837-9e22-f5a15a6fe1ae%40Spark?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/a9412d96-a115-4837-9e22-f5a15a6fe1ae%40Spark?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

> >>>
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> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>>.

> >>> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/358B8117-4AB2-4027-9288-EDD57674520D%40reala.net <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/358B8117-4AB2-4027-9288-EDD57674520D%40reala.net> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/358B8117-4AB2-4027-9288-EDD57674520D%40reala.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/358B8117-4AB2-4027-9288-EDD57674520D%40reala.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

> >> --
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> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>>.

> >> To view this discussion on the web visit

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