[Next Project] What Is Property? by Pierre-Joseph Proudhon (trans. Tucker)

[Weijia Cheng]

Wikisource: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/What_is_Property%3F

IA: https://archive.org/details/whatispropertya00prougoog

I'm choosing Wikisource over PG because the PG version is very old (it was first released in the late 90s!) and has some classic old PG problems like ALL CAPS for italics. The Wikisource version has been fully proofread with links to the corresponding pages and has proper formatting so I think it will be easier to work from that than reintroducing all of the italics into PG myself.

For the cover art I suggest Proudhon and His Children: page 40 here.

[Alex Cabal]

I like the painting but they are not the same. As you can see the page
scans have a woman sitting in the chair, but the color scan does not. If
you can match them then you can go ahead and use it.

On 1/16/22 5:04 PM, Weijia Cheng wrote:
> Wikisource: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/What_is_Property%3F
> IA: https://archive.org/details/whatispropertya00prougoog
>
> I'm choosing Wikisource over PG

> <https://www.gutenberg.org/files/360/360-h/360-h.htm> because the PG

> version is very old (it was first released in the late 90s!) and has
> some classic old PG problems like ALL CAPS for italics. The Wikisource
> version has been fully proofread with links to the corresponding pages
> and has proper formatting so I think it will be easier to work from that
> than reintroducing all of the italics into PG myself.
>
> For the cover art I suggest Proudhon and His Children

> <https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Proudhon-children.jpg>: page 40
> here
> <https://www.google.com/books/edition/Gustave_Courbet/qDMkAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=proudhon%20%2B%20courbet>.
>
>
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[Weijia Cheng]

Ok, I was terrified I was going to have to go on a wild goose chase for this one but I actually found it in like 15 minutes: this is definitely the version without the woman, yeah?

[Vince]

> On Jan 17, 2022, at 9:54 PM, Weijia Cheng <weijia...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Ok, I was terrified I was going to have to go on a wild goose chase…

How I feel on every book as I start to look for cover art… lol

[Alex Cabal]

That's the one, thanks!

On 1/17/22 9:54 PM, Weijia Cheng wrote:
> Ok, I was terrified I was going to have to go on a wild goose chase for
> this one but I actually found it in like 15 minutes: this is definitely
> the version without the woman, yeah?

> <https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=gri.ark:/13960/t6wx01b0q&view=1up&seq=151&skin=2021>

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[Weijia Cheng]

I'm very happy with this cover, though I think it's a little hilarious to see Proudhon wearing what looks like the 19th-century equivalent of a sweatshirt and jeans in this portrait 🤣

[Weijia Cheng]

There are two blockquotes on page 175 that I am trying to figure out how to format and style. They are clearly blockquotes with citations but they are also being used as part of the surrounding sentence (hence the semicolon at the end of the first quote and the em dash at the end of the second). The default <cite> styling looks a bit strange with these since it would break the citations onto a separate line. I was thinking of using the <cite> elements inline and overriding the default blockquote cite css. Something like:

        <blockquote>
          <p>“To each according to his capacity, to each capacity according to its results” <cite>(<abbr>St.</abbr> Simon)</cite>;</p>
        </blockquote>
        <blockquote>
          <p>“To each according to his capital, his labor, and his skill” <cite>(Fourier)</cite>—</p>
        </blockquote>

#chapter-1-3-6 blockquote:first-of-type cite,
#chapter-1-3-6 blockquote:nth-of-type(2) cite{
  display: inline;
  font-style: normal;
  text-align: initial;
}

The results of this look pretty reasonable to me:

[Alex Cabal]

Looks good!

On 1/29/22 12:44 PM, Weijia Cheng wrote:
> There are two blockquotes on page 175

> <https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page%3AWhat_is_Property%3F.pdf/175> that

> I am trying to figure out how to format and style. They are clearly
> blockquotes with citations but they are also being used as part of the
> surrounding sentence (hence the semicolon at the end of the first quote
> and the em dash at the end of the second). The default <cite> styling
> looks a bit strange with these since it would break the citations onto a
> separate line. I was thinking of using the <cite> elements inline and
> overriding the default blockquote cite css. Something like:
>
>         <blockquote>
>           <p>“To each according to his capacity, to each capacity
> according to its results” <cite>(<abbr>St.</abbr> Simon)</cite>;</p>
>         </blockquote>
>         <blockquote>
>           <p>“To each according to his capital, his labor, and his
> skill” <cite>(Fourier)</cite>—</p>
>         </blockquote>
>
> #chapter-1-3-6 blockquote:first-of-type cite,
> #chapter-1-3-6 blockquote:nth-of-type(2) cite{
>   display: inline;
>   font-style: normal;
>   text-align: initial;
> }
>
> The results of this look pretty reasonable to me:
>

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[Weijia Cheng]

I am getting closer to the end of this and I am running into the 8.8.3 "mathy numbers" rule that caused us some headaches during The Conquest of Bread again. Unsurprisingly given the subject matter, this book has a lot of numbers too. I was trying to figure out a rule of thumb for when "a series of numbers is close together in a sentence" and I wanted to submit some examples.

"My income of one hundred thousand francs is as inviolable as the grisette’s daily wage of seventy-five centimes; her attic is no more sacred than my suite of apartments."

Would we want to convert one hundred thousand here? Possibly no, since "one hundred thousand francs" is parallel to "seventy-five centimes" in this sentence? There are other cases too where a large number is compared to a small one, and it seems to me that in such cases they could be considered "close together" for the purposes of this rule.

"It is evident, for instance, that if a piece of land which is worth today one thousand francs was worth only five centimes when it was usurped, we really lose only the value of five centimes. A square league of earth would be hardly sufficient to support a savage in distress; today it supplies one thousand persons with the means of existence. Nine hundred and ninety-nine parts of this land is the legitimate property of the possessors; only one-thousandth of the value has been usurped."

The first sentence here raises the same question as the previous passage. The last sentence here seems really tricky because ostensibly, it's describing a mathematical calculation and in any case "nine hundred and ninety-nine" could be converted to 999 under the rules. But what about the "one-thousandth"? Is that something you'd then change into a fraction with digits?

"If France (more powerful than Catherine II) should say to Mademoiselle Rachel, 'You must act for one hundred louis, or else spin cotton;' to M. Duprez, 'You must sing for two thousand four hundred francs, or else work in the vineyard,'⁠—do you think that the actress Rachel, and the singer Duprez, would abandon the stage? If they did, they would be the first to repent it.
"Mademoiselle Rachel receives, they say, sixty thousand francs annually from the Comédie-Française. For a talent like hers, it is a slight fee. Why not one hundred thousand francs, two hundred thousand francs? Why not a civil list? What meanness! Are we really guilty of chaffering with an artist like Mademoiselle Rachel?"

Now we have a case where the parallelism between numbers is across sentences and even paragraphs: if we do want to respect parallelism with how numbers are spelled out, how far does that parallelism go?

The printed edition of the book has a fairly consistent style, spelling out the numbers in all cases except for two extremely large numbers (in the billions and trillions) and in three cases where it uses fractions (I had to break out MathML for this since two of the fractions had calculations inside of them). Because the print version already has a consistent style and there are so many large numbers in this book, I'd personally lobby to just leave the printed style in place and avoid having to editorially edit a huge portion of the book (this also would save all of us a lot of hand-wrangling like this about how to apply the mathy numbers rule like these examples show).

[Alex Cabal]

You can just leave it. Don't overthink it.

On 2/6/22 11:55 PM, Weijia Cheng wrote:
> I am getting closer to the end of this and I am running into the 8.8.3

> "mathy numbers" rule that caused us some headaches during /The Conquest
> of Bread/ again. Unsurprisingly given the subject matter, this book has

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[Weijia Cheng]

Here is a use of a comma, followed by double quotes, followed by an em dash:

> God said to man, “In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread,”—that is ...

I know typogrify removes the comma right before an em dash. Should something similar be done here or is this fine as-is?

[Vince]

I actually did a PR for this some time ago, but Alex said that there were enough instances when the comma should stay that he didn’t want to automate removing it.

[Weijia Cheng]

There are two arithmetic sequences on this page arranged in a table: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page%3AWhat_is_Property%3F.pdf/210

So far I've removed the periods between the numbers, which seem to be spacers of some sort. I was thinking of adding commas to the numbers instead, so that it would read

100, 200, 300, 400, 500.

3, 6, 9, 12, 15.

which I think is how we expect arithmetic sequences to be formatted these days.

[Weijia Cheng]

Do we remove "ae" and "oe" ligatures from Latin text? My cursory research tells me that the ligature is an early modern and not a classical practice, so removing them is probably more accurate to the original text for classical quotations.

[Vince Rice]

We do.

> On Mar 3, 2022, at 9:08 AM, Weijia Cheng <weijia...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Do we remove "ae" and "oe" ligatures from Latin text? My cursory research tells me that the ligature is an early modern and not a classical practice, so removing them is probably more accurate to the original text for classical quotations.

[Weijia Cheng]

https://github.com/weijia-cheng/pierre-joseph-proudhon_what-is-property_benjamin-tucker

Ok, this is ready for review! This book was mostly straightforward, except for an extremely irregular internal structure (pretty much every chapter has a different subdividing scheme). I took I ended up with something that both represents the book accurately and conforms to SE style. Aside from that I had to convert a large number of book titles from quoted to italics.

[Alex Cabal]

Matic would you like to review this?

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[maticstric]

Yep! Still pretty busy so give me a few days. I want to get back into producing books again, but I just haven't had the time :(

[maticstric]

Since it's been a few days, I'm just letting you know that I'm still in the process of reviewing it. My schedule frees up after Monday so I hope to have it done on Tuesday.

[Weijia Cheng]

No rush, thank you Matic! Your review for What Is Art? was very helpful and I know that these very dense non-fiction books are on the harder side to look at.

[maticstric]

Ok, I was finally able to finish up. I apologize for the long wait.

Overall an incredibly well-done production. This type of project is my nightmare. I don't know how you stuck through it.

Issues are in github repo. The only major thing is that there are quite a few missing italics in the transcription. I know it sucks, but if you have the time I think it might be worthwhile to sit down for an hour and make one more run-through to check if there are more missing. I was only skimming and found about 10.

[Weijia Cheng]

Thanks, Matic! I was checking pretty closely for italics when I started proofreading but I got lazier as I got more bored with the book. I'll do a proper sit down to find the missing italics since there seem to be so many.

[Weijia Cheng]

Ok, while I'm fixing the missing italics in the transcription, I had a few questions I wanted to pitch to the mailing list that came up in the review.

Chapter 2 has some subchapters that have headings that look like this. I chose to interpret "Property as a Natural Right" as a bridgehead (I did the same for similar formatting elsewhere in the chapter). So I formatted it like this:

<header>
   <h4>
     <span epub:type="label">§</span>
     <span epub:type="ordinal">1</span>
   </h4>
   <p epub:type="bridgehead">Property as a Natural Right.</p>

</header>

Does this look OK, or should I treat those headings as titles instead? This sort of pattern is also used in Chapter 3 with headings that look much more like bridgeheads so I feel formatting these consistently as bridgeheads makes the most sense.

Another thing I found is that this book often uses italicized text as a sort of in-paragraph header, for example "Objection" and "Reply" on this page. I treated these as unsemantic italics, but should these be <em>s instead?

[Weijia Cheng]

Hmm, thinking about these paragraph headers like "Objection" and "Reply," what if I gave them z3998:topic-sentence? I guess they aren't really sentences, but fragments, but it seems to be a little more semantically relevant than a generic emphasis. The Z39:98 spec says "A phrase or sentence serving as an introductory summary of the containing paragraph." so I guess you could generously count those as phrases.

[Vince]

Neither of those look like bridgeheads to me, I would format them as titles.

I definitely don’t think the italics are emphasis, so I would probably also go with unsemanticated italics. We haven’t used z3998:sentence anywhere else in the corpus, but Alex will have to speak to whether we would want to here.

[Weijia Cheng]

Ok, how about another example? This one clearly looks like a bridgehead to me.

[Vince]

Well, first, a reminder that this is ultimately Alex’s call, I’m just offering my thoughts. :)

But no, that doesn’t look like one to me, either. Only the extra “Labor” makes it look different than the others, and that’s there because the next three sections all refer to labor. If anything, I might call “Labor” the title and the individual titles as subtitles for those three sections. But I could also talk myself into removing the “Labor” from 4 completely; the first paragraph ties the three sections together, and the titles are sufficient to indicate what each section is about.

Regardless, none of them are formatted as a bridgehead, and he refers to the first three, e.g., on p. 88, with words very similar to what’s in the titles, and does it again on p.103 for sections 4-6. That would, again, lead me to call them titles.

So if I was doing it, I would format them all as section headers/titles.

On Mar 19, 2022, at 3:55 PM, Weijia Cheng <weijia...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ok, how about another example? This one clearly looks like a bridgehead to me.

[Alex Cabal]

I agree with Vince, those are titles. The one example you listed has an
epigraph. <i> is fine for those inline italics and I don't think
topic-sentence is appropriate as they are neither sentences nor
descriptions of topics.

On 3/19/22 2:52 PM, Vince wrote:
> Neither of those look like bridgeheads to me, I would format them as titles.
>
> I definitely don’t think the italics are emphasis, so I would probably
> also go with unsemanticated italics. We haven’t used z3998:sentence
> anywhere else in the corpus, but Alex will have to speak to whether we
> would want to here.
>
>
>> On Mar 19, 2022, at 11:59 AM, Weijia Cheng <weijia...@gmail.com

>> <mailto:weijia...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Ok, while I'm fixing the missing italics in the transcription, I had a
>> few questions I wanted to pitch to the mailing list that came up in
>> the review.
>>
>> Chapter 2 has some subchapters that have headings that look like this

>> <https://archive.org/details/what-is-property/page/44/mode/2up?view=theater>.

>> I chose to interpret "Property as a Natural Right" as a bridgehead (I
>> did the same for similar formatting elsewhere in the chapter). So I
>> formatted it like this:
>>
>> <header>
>> <h4>
>> <span epub:type="label">§</span>
>> <span epub:type="ordinal">1</span>
>> </h4>
>> <p epub:type="bridgehead">Property as a Natural Right.</p>
>> </header>
>>
>> Does this look OK, or should I treat those headings as titles instead?
>> This sort of pattern is also used in Chapter 3 with headings that look
>> much more like bridgeheads

>> <https://archive.org/details/what-is-property/page/88/mode/2up?view=theater>

>> so I feel formatting these consistently as bridgeheads makes the most
>> sense.
>>
>> Another thing I found is that this book often uses italicized text as
>> a sort of in-paragraph header, for example "Objection" and "Reply" on
>> this page

>> <https://archive.org/details/what-is-property/page/166/mode/2up?view=theater>.

>> I treated these as unsemantic italics, but should these be <em>s instead?
>

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[Weijia Cheng]

Ok, I've made the change to the headers and changed the ones we've discussed from bridgeheads to titles. I've also gone through and checked for missing italics and fixed everything I found (also fixed upstream to Wikisource). I believe with that and the unsemantic italics confirmed this should be ready unless Matic has any more comments.

[maticstric]

Yep, I think that's it from my end.

The only other note is that I can't see the math formulas in chapter-1-2.xhtml and chapter-1-4.xhtml. They seem correct, but none of my readers can see them.

[Alex Cabal]

If they're mathml then open them in a browser instead. Most readers
don't support mathml and it's converted to pngs during build.

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[maticstric]

In the browser, I just see "1100,000" instead of the fraction 1/100,000. The code looks like this:

<m:math alttext="1/100,000"><m:mfrac><m:mn>1</m:mn><m:mn>100,000</m:mn></m:mfrac></m:math>

...which seems correct to me. But I've never used mathml.

https://github.com/weijia-cheng/pierre-joseph-proudhon_what-is-property_benjamin-tucker/blob/862605324f9cae250ef682b2ae572228cf237132/src/epub/text/chapter-1-2.xhtml#L147

https://archive.org/details/what-is-property/page/66/mode/2up

[Vince]

They show up correctly in Apple Books.

[Vince]

Looks OK in browsers as well.

Safari

Firefox

On Mar 22, 2022, at 1:19 PM, Vince <vr_se...@letterboxes.org> wrote:

They show up correctly in Apple Books.

<PastedGraphic-1.png>

<PastedGraphic-2.png>

[maticstric]

Ok, yea I see that it works in Firefox for me as well. Chrome doesn't seem to support it though.

I have Apple Books but I just see an empty space where the formula should be. To be fair, I probably haven't updated it in a while. I checked and it's on version 2.4.

Chrome:

Apple Books:

[Vince]

Apple Books comes with the OS (MacOS or iOS). Big Sur is v3.2; I don’t see a way to tell the version# for iOS.

On Mar 22, 2022, at 3:16 PM, maticstric <matic...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ok, yea I see that it works in Firefox for me as well. Chrome doesn't seem to support it though.

I have Apple Books but I just see an empty space where the formula should be. To be fair, I probably haven't updated it in a while. I checked and it's on version 2.4.

Chrome:

<Screen Shot 2022-03-22 at 13.14.36.png>

Apple Books:

[Alex Cabal]

OK great, I've gone ahead and released it. Thanks everyone!

On 3/22/22 12:26 PM, maticstric wrote:

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