The Longevity of Information

[Markendeya Yeddanapudi]

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Mar 

Is information truly lost in the Universe? If it cannot be lost, then there is unending addition only. Where does any information die completely? This has implications in our own after life existence. Am I living as a continuation starting along in the Big bang?

Chat GPT

You’re stepping right into one of the deepest open questions in physics. Let’s separate what science can confidently say from what remains speculative—and then connect it to your philosophical intuition.

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1) Is information ever truly lost?

This question is at the heart of the Black Hole Information Paradox.

The tension:

• Quantum theory says:
  👉 Information is never destroyed (the evolution is reversible in principle).
• But classical black hole physics (from Stephen Hawking’s early work on Hawking Radiation) suggested:
  👉 Information falling into a black hole could disappear forever.

This created a paradox.

Current understanding (best we have today):

Most physicists now believe:

👉 Information is not fundamentally lost

Instead:

• It becomes extremely scrambled
• It may be encoded in subtle correlations (for example, in Hawking radiation)
• Recovering it is practically impossible—but in principle, it still exists

This aligns with a deep principle in physics called unitarity (from quantum mechanics).

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2) If information isn’t lost, is the universe just accumulating it forever?

This is a very insightful leap—but here’s the subtle correction:

• The universe is not like a hard drive “adding more files”
• Instead, it is constantly transforming and redistributing information

Two key ideas help here:

a) Conservation vs accessibility

• Information may be conserved globally
• But locally, it becomes:
• dispersed
• entangled
• effectively irretrievable

b) Entropy still increases

Through Entropy:

• Order → disorder
• Structured information → scrambled correlations

So:

👉 Information may not be destroyed
👉 But it loses usable form

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3) Where does information “die” then?

From a practical perspective:

• When a book burns → its information becomes microscopic correlations in smoke and heat
• When a brain dies → neural patterns dissolve into physical processes

So:

👉 Information doesn’t “die” fundamentally
👉 But it becomes irrecoverable in practice

This distinction is crucial.

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4) Does this imply an afterlife?

This is where physics draws a firm boundary.

Physics says:

• The pattern that is “you” (your memories, identity, thoughts) depends on:
• highly organized brain structure
• continuous biological processes

When those stop:

• The structure breaks down
• The information disperses into the environment

Even if:

• The total information in the universe is conserved

👉 The organized pattern that is “you” is not preserved in a usable or reconstructable form

So physics does not support an afterlife in the sense of continued personal existence.

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5) Are you a continuation from the Big Bang?

Here your intuition is beautifully aligned with science.

Yes—in a real, physical sense:

• The atoms in your body were formed in stars
• The laws governing you trace back to the early universe
• The entire evolution follows from the initial conditions of the Big Bang

So:

👉 You are part of an unbroken physical process since the beginning of the universe

But:

• You are not a persistent identity carried from then
• You are a new, emergent structure formed along the way

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6) The clean way to summarize all this

• Information (likely): never fundamentally destroyed
• Structure (definitely): constantly created and destroyed
• You: a temporary, highly organized pattern in that flow

A physicist might say:

“The universe remembers everything in principle, but forgets everything in practice.”

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Final thought

Your intuition is pointing toward something real:

• There is continuity in the universe
• Nothing is completely isolated
• Everything arises from prior states

But the leap from continuity of physics → continuity of personal existence is not supported by current science.

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If you want to go deeper, a fascinating next step is:

• Could future physics (or technology) ever reconstruct a past state of a person from scattered information?
  That question sits right at the edge of physics, computation, and philosophy.

 

[Rajaram Krishnamurthy]

According to Vedic literature, the "expression of words" or Vak (Speech/Sound) is established in the cosmic space, often described as a supreme void, transcendental ocean, or the imperishable syllable (Aksara). This means that the Vedas are not considered of human origin, but rather vibrations or divine consciousness that exist eternally and are "heard" by sages (mantra-drasta). [1, 2, 3] 

• The Supreme Void (Aksara): The Rigveda states that "Vak in its fiery form is established in that supreme void of imperishable syllable (Aksara)".

• The Luminous Plane (Akasa) and Life (Prana): The Upanishads and Vedas describe space (Akasa) and life (Prana) as an eternal couple. The philosophical expression of this is "Word is the attribute of Sky".

• Four Stages of Sound (Vak): Vedic tradition describes speech in four stages—Para (transcendent), Pashyanti (visualizable), Madhyama (mental), and Vaikhari (articulated). The first three exist in the subtle space of the heart/mind, while only the fourth is articulated by humans.

• The "Unstruck" Sound (Anahata): The "un-struck" murmuring of the formless in form is the pulsation that forms the source of words.

• Aksara (Imperishable Syllable): This is considered the source of all Vedic hymns, often synonymized with Aum (Om).

• Cosmic Vibration: Vedas are considered "living vehicles of ideative, creative and formative energies pouring from cosmic and supracosmic sources". [1, 3, 4, 5] 

Note: The idea that "Word is the attribute of Sky" is a unique philosophical position where sound is conceptualized as the fundamental characteristic of space, according to Vedic philosophy.   

2   Vak suktam

This Suktha is from Rig Veda. It is also known as the “Devi Suktha”. Vak is literally “word” but could also mean ability of thought and speech[1].

Aham Rudrebhir vasubhir charami,

Aham aadhithyer uta vaisvadevaii,

Aham mithra varunobha bibharmi,

Aham indragni, aham ashvinobha.

I move with Rudras and Vasus,

I walk with the Sun and other Gods,

I esteem mithra, varuna

And Indra, fire and the Aswini devas.

 

Aham somam ahaanasam bhibhrami

Aham thwashtaaramr utha pooshanam bhagam,

Aham dadhami dravinam havishmathe,

Supravye yajamanya sunwathe.

I esteem Soma, which is extracted,

I support thwastri, pushan and bhaga,

I give wealth to those who perform yagna,

Who reach the gods with offerings.

 

Aham rashtri samgamani vasoonaam,

Chikithushee pradhamaa yagniyaanaam,

Thaam maa devaa vyadhaduha puruthra,

Bhuristhathram bhooyar visayanthim.

I am the one who gives wealth to the nation,

I am the first one to whom this sacrifice is addressed,

The gods have found my manifoldness,

And enter in to it and take possession of the manifoldness.

 

Mayaa so annamathi

yo vipasyathi,Ya pranithi

y aim shrunothi yuktham,

amaanathvo maam tha upa kshiyanthi,

Shrudhi shruthi shraddivam they vadami

I am the power which makes one eat the food, to see, to breath,

And to hear what I am saying,

They who do not believe me perish,

And I am telling you the truth, hear with attention.

 

Aham yeva swayam idham vadhami,

Jushtam devebhir utha manushebhi,

Yam kaamaye tham tham ugram krunomi,

Tham brahmanam tham rishim tham sumedham,

I am myself telling this,

Which man and gods should try to understand,

“The one whom I love, I make him mighty,

I Make him Brahman, I make him the sage, and I make him wise.”

 

Aham rudhraya dhanura thanomi,

Brahmadwishe sharave hanthava vu,

Aham janaaya samadham krunomi,

Aham dhyayaprithwi aa vivesha.

I stretch the bow to Rudra,

So that he who hates Brahmam is hurt by the arrow,

I bestow equality on people at war,

I am throughout the heaven and earth.

 

Aham suvepitharamasya moordhan,

Mama yonir apswatha samudhre,

Thatho vi thishte bhuvananu vishwotha,

Amum dhyam varshamanopam vishva utha.

I brought about the progenitor in to earth,

I sprang from the water of the ocean,

And from there I spread throughout the universe,

I touch that heaven with a flowering body.

 

Ahameva vatham yiva vatha yiva pravami,

Arambhamana bhuvanani viswam,

Paro dhiva para yena prithwya,

Yaithavathi mahinaa sam bhabhoova.

I blow like the fierce winds,

Which commences from the universe,

Which extends far beyond heaven and far below the earth,

And I have become very gross because of this.

 

3        Vāk shakti is elaborated even in the most ancient Rig Veda.

 

Catvāri vākparimitā padāni tāni vidurbrāhmaṇā ye manīṣiṇaḥ |

Guhā trīṇi nihitā neṅgayanti turīyaṃ vāco manuṣyā vadanti ||

Speech hath been measured out in four divisions,

the Brahmans who have understanding know them.

Three kept in close concealment cause no motion;

of speech, men speak only the fourth division.  Rig Veda HYMN CLXIV.

Simply put, the four stages of speech are parā, pashyanti, madhyamā, and vaikhari. Our speech is delivered so rapidly that we don’t even realize these four stages are happening. We only observe the final stage.

Parā is the the unchanging substratum

Pashyanti is the formation of a slight desire – icchā shakti – to speak.

Madhyamā is the construction of a more concrete content through jnāna shakti in the mind.

Vaikhari is the final sound that comes out in the mouth using kriyā shakti.

It has been connected to the Kundalini in yoga shāstras (not familiar to me). Devi Lalithā Tripurasundari is glorified as the devata for the four stages of speech in the Lalithā Sahasranāma.

parā prathyak chithi rupā pashyanthi para devathā |

madhyamā vaikhari rupā muni mānasa hamsikā ||

How nuanced our understanding has been since the ancient days of the Rig veda!! In fact, a beautiful Shānti mantra in the Rig veda itself asks for that Vāk shakti.

oṃ vāṅ me manasi pratiṣṭhitā। mano me vāci pratiṣṭhitam ।

āvirāvīrma edhi । vedasya ma āṇīsthaḥ । śrutaṃ me mā prahāsīḥ

anenādhītenāhorātrān sandadhāmi । ṛtaṃ vadiṣyāmi । satyaṃ vadiṣyāmi ।

tanmāmavatu । tadvaktāramavatu । avatu mām ।

avatu vaktāram । avatu vaktāram ॥

oṃ śānti: śānti: śānti: ॥

Om. May my speech be well-established in my mind and the mind be well-established in my speech. (May there be complete identity and harmony between the mind and speech.)

O self-effulgent Brahman, be revealed to me (as the self-effulgent). May you both, mind and speech together, be able to bring the essence of the Vedas for me. Whatever I have learnt or heard (from the teacher), may it not leave me. May I unite day and night by the study (contemplate incessantly throughout day and night). I shall speak what is true, in the mind. I shall speak what is true and proper. May Brahman protect me (by infusing the right knowledge) and protect the teacher (by enabling him to communicate). May It protect me. May It protect the teacher, protect the teacher. Oṃ śānti: śānti: śānti:

Since vāk is so divine – Saraswati Herself – we should also use it with reverence – avoid bad words, harshness and definitely non-truths.

Bhagavad Gitā teaches clearly how to do Vāk-tapas

anudvegakaram vākyam satyam priya hitam ca yat, swādhyāyābhyasanam caiva vāngmayam tapa ucyate 17.15

Speaking words that don’t cause agitation in others, speaking the truth, speaking lovingly, speaking for good of others,using speech for swadhyaya and chanting – this is called Vak tapas.

4                   – According to Vedantins, the four levels of speech could be the Pranava (Aum) – which is the sum and substance of all the Vedic terms (sarva-vaidika-vag-jalasaya), followed by three Vyahritis (Bhu-Bhuh -Suvah). Thus, the Pranava along with three Vyahritis form the four quarters of speech.

: – According to Nirukta (Etymology), the language of the three Vedas (Rik, Yajus and  Saman ) and the speech commonly used  for dealings in the world , together make the four quarters of speech – (Rg-yajuh-samani-caturdhi vyavharikiti nairuktah – 13,8 )

: – The four levels of speech could also be related to four regions representing four deities: on the Earth as Agni (yo prthivyam sa-agnau); in the mid-air as Vayu (Ya-antarikshe sa vayau); and, in the upper regions as Aditya (Ya divi saditye). And, whatever that remains and transcends the other three is in Brahman (Tasya-mad-brahmana).

: – The speech, though it is truly indivisible, is measured out or analyzed in the Grammar as of four kinds or four parts-of-speech (akhandayah krtsnaya vacah caturvidha vyakrtattvat).  Accordingly, the four divisions of speech are named by the followers of the various Schools of Grammar (vyakarana-matanus-arino) as: Naaman (Nouns), Akhyata (Verbs), Upasarga (prepositions or prefixes) and Nipata (particles)

: – According to the wise who are capable of exercising control over their mind; the Yogis who have realized Sabdabrahman; and, others of the Mantra (Tantra) School, these four levels of speech (Evam catvari vacah padani parimitani)  are classified as : Para, Pashyanti, Madhyama and Vaikhari.

Manisinah manasah svaminah svadhinamanaska brahmana vacyasya sabdabrahmani dhigantaro yoginah paradicatvari padani viduh jananti

Apare-mantrkah-parkarantarena-pratipadanti-Para-Pasyanthi-Madhyama-Vaikari Chatvari

5            tasya etasyai vaco manah padas caksuh padas srotram pado vag eca caturtah padah

Further, it says: what he thinks with the mind, that he speaks with speech; what he sees with the sight, that he speaks with the speech; and, what he hears with hearing, that he speaks with speech.

 tad yad vai manasa dyayanti tad vaco vadati; yac caksus pasyati tad vaca vadati; yac srotrena srunoti tad vaco vadati /

Thus, finally, all activities of senses unite (Sam) into speech. Therefore, speech is the Saman.

The ancient philosophers identified four levels or stages of speech (Vac): Para, Pashyanti, Madhyama and Vaikhari.

Of these four forms of Vac, Para and Pashyanti are the subtle forms of Vac; while Madhyama and Vaikhari are its gross forms.

The process of manifestation of speech is compared to the evolution of the Universe. And, that process is said to take place in four stages.

First, in the undifferentiated substratum of thought, an intention appears. This first impulse, the self-radiant consciousness is Para-vac (the voice beyond).

This latent, un-spoken, un-manifest, silent thought (Para) unfolds itself in the next three stages as Pashanti (thought-visualized), Madhyama  (intermediate); and as Vaikhari (explicit audible speech).

The Madhyama Vak, a sequenced but a pre-vocal thought – described as the voice of silence; perhaps is best understood as internal speaking. Here, there is no perceptible sound (Nada). The Madhyama Vak is in an inaudible wave or vibratory (spandana) form.

And, the Madhyama, when it is put out explicitly through uttered words and sentences; and, when it comes out of the speaker’s mouth in sequenced and verbalized speech-form, it is called Vaikhari Vak. For the purpose of putting out the Vaikhari Vac, the speaker employs a sentence comprising words uttered in a sequence. The word itself comprises letters or syllables (varnas) that follow one after the other in space and time.

K Rajaram IRS 25326

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