Panchayat Poll in West Bengal: EVM vs. Paper Ballot
Sukla Sen
Satinath Choudhary
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And may you be blessed with the foolishness to think that you can make a difference in the world, so that you will do things which others tell you cannot be done
Sukla Sen
Sukla Sen
Sukla Sen
Point taken, Sukla - there is plenty of scope for vote-rigging with paper ballots. But that doesn't mean there's no scope for it with EVMs. We heard there was a surge in voting in Gujarat after the polls had closed, and an RSS informant told Paranjoy Guha-Thakurtha that in certain voting centres, the main polling officer was given a huge sum to distribute to underlings, who were then instructed to press the button for the BJP every 7 seconds for the next hour. That's an electronic form of ballot-box stuffing. Then in Bihar, if you remember, a cop had reported to his superior that trucks containing EVMs had been hijacked and substituted with other trucks, and when he asked what to do, was advised to do nothing if he wanted to keep his job. Another form of vote-riggning with EVMs. And perhaps VVPATs are also involved, so counting them won't help. Only if all parties are allowed to monitor the vote and subsequent movement of EVMs and actively do so can these be eliminated.
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Satinath Choudhary
Dear Sukla jee,
Please see my responses within the brackets <<< my response >>>. The rest are your words.
Jul 9, 2023, 2:20 PM (8 days ago)
to foil-l, Discussion, bcc: socialist-party-india
https://www.facebook.com/reel/1023463141924905
This would have not been possible with the EVM.
I. You can't just go on continuously pressing the button.
Each push has to be separately enabled -- each time following a set protocol.
II. The (helpless) polling officer, who's actually protesting, could have very well remotely deactivated the machine had it been EVM.
<<<
I have watched the video more than once. I did not see any protestation by anyone. There was no sound. There was someone waving a hand in front of the camera. I interpreted this as the shooting of the video was doing so with one hand (perhaps with the left hand and passing some kind of instruction with the right, together with some verbal instructions.
Later they realized that the voice would have revealed the whole charade. So, they decided to make a copy of the video without the sound. This second video is the one they decided to share.
Logically, which party would be more likely to have perpetrated the violence? Trinamul must have realized that it is winning the election. So, it is less likely to have perpetrated violence. The party with the better track record of violence is BJP. So, it is quite likely that the violence was perpetrated by BJP.
Likewise, logically speaking, which party would be interested in propagating the ballot-stuffing video? Since Trinamul won the election in a big way, it is less likely to propagate the video. BJP, which is keen on continuing to use EVMs for bigger and "the biggest" elections, is more likely to propagate the video, staged or real.
Finally, if it was staged, which party would be more interested in staging the same? Again, the culprit appears to be the BJP.
All of these things follow from the forensic theory of crimes: namely, the party or individual who stands to gain from the crime is the most “likely” perpetrator of the crime. I am only claiming likelihood, without the claim of certainty.
I am surprised, a person so knowledgeable as you are, falls into their trap so easily, without questioning whatever is being propagated.
>>>
III. Of course, the EVM is just no answer to violence. But, it restricts (terror-enabled) false voting in a very big way.
<<< EVMs enables showing false voting result in as big a way, as desired by the perpetrator without enabling/perpetrating any kind of terror -- clean surgical operation, without any bloodshed!!!!! >>>
On violence:
I. <https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=978672863182855&id=100031204523777>.
II. <https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=978673383182803&id=100031204523777>.
[Btw, all these are all taken from the FB wall of a (self-proclaimed) Congress activist from Murshidabad.
Regardless of the political affiliation, and all that it implies, there's no ground to suspect that any of these videos is/are doctored. Hence, quite valuable documents coming from a citizen journalist with a specific political orientation.]
Sukla
Dear Sati ji,
Thanks for the response.
I. Ballot stuffing in India must be quite old. Reportedly happening since 1957.
Bihar, in particular was notorious for that.
In West Bengal, it was resorted to in a big way in 1971 with the state machinery under the Congress control then fairly actively participating.
It'd be resorted to in an even bigger way in 1972. This time, even counting was, allegedly, in a big way tampered with. Of course, with the active intervention of the state.
That also glaringly underlined what may happen with the ballot boxes when the state intervenes on behalf of one of the contending parties.
<<< You said ballot stuffing happened in a big way, ..., even bigger way ..., etc., without many any any statistics. Besides, how many of such cheating were of any consequence as far as the final result is concerned was not mentioned.
As I have stated, paper ballot voting and hand counting, are prone to small scale cheating. But with the help of rigged EVMs, massive dacoities are likely to happen.
>>>
II. It's only in 2004, the parliamentary poll used (only) EVMs.
No ballot stuffing. No tampering at the counting table.
<<< All such things “possibly done internally”, we do not know. >>>
III. In West Bengal, the allegations are against the ruling TMC.
It's truly fantastical to propose that the TMC is doing something to discredit ballot boxes!
<<< Allegations are against the ruling TMC. That does not necessarily mean that TMC is the culprit in all or most of irregularities. The losing side may lodge most of the allegations, sensing losses in the final result.
Whether TMC was responsible for most of the irregularities or not, interested party could have, wherever it may find friendly officials, staged the irregularities, purposely to discredit voting with ballot paper and counting manually.
>>>
Let me stop at that.
Yes, demands should be raised to further increase, from the current 5, the number of EVMs per assembly seat to be cross-tallied with the VVPAT slips. (Ref.: <https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/count-vvpat-slips-of-5-booths-in-each-assembly-seat-sc/articleshow/68786810.cms>.)
<<< First of all, I do not know whether the verification counts of the paper slips are done right in the beginning of the counting process, or at the end.
Vote-manipulation with the help of rigged EVMs may be done in such a way as to avoid detection.
Suppose the verification counts are done right in the beginning of the counting process. In such a case the vote-manipulation may wait until the verification counts have finished.
Suppose the verification counts are done at the end of the counting process, Detection of manipulation in such a case is possible if the rigging is done such that after the counting (of manipulated cotes) the EVMs may have been deigned to restore the real vote counts right after the faulty counts of an EVM has been read. In such a case, when you bring out any VVPAT’s paper-slip box and its associated control unit for verification counts, one will find that they are matching. In such a case the manipulation before counting and restoration of the original vote counts in the machine will pass undetected.
In such a case, the only way the vote-manipulation can be detected is to count all of the VVPAT slips and try to match them against electronic counts.
If for really serious verification all of the VVPAT slips need to be counted, why do we perform the electronic counting at all?
According to ECI, for all of the paper slips to be manually counted, it may take 10 days or so. If the ECI takes months to finish all of the voting phases, why can’t it wait another 10 days or so for the sake of removing all doubts and restore public faith in democracy.
>>>
-Satinath
============
Sukla Sen
Satinath Choudhary
Sukla Sen
Satinath Choudhary
Dear John,
I would appreciate if John could kindly explicate: “i dont see why the print out cannot be symbol with a machine readable system, so that more print outs can be tallied..”
What is 355, and who demanded the imposition of 355?
You said: “At the end, I must point out that your interjections are getting more and more hilarious. Beyond absurd”
And Sukla jee,
I would appreciate it if you would kindly explain which part(s) of my interjections are getting more and more hilarious and beyond absurd.
-Satinath
=========
The SC agreed that only 5 printout be cross-tallied. i dont see why the print out cannot be symbol with a machine readable system, so that more print outs can be tallied..
The Left and Congress have also *broadly* echoed that sentiment. Though have not demanded imposition of 355. At the end, I must point out that your interjections are getting more and more hilarious. Beyond absurd. Sukla On Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 10:26 Satinath Choudhary <sati...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Sukla jee, Please see my responses within the brackets <<< my response >>>. The rest are your words. Jul 9, 2023, 2:20 PM (8 days ago) to foil-l, Discussion, bcc: socialist-party-india https://www.facebook.com/reel/1023463141924905
*This would have not been possible with the EVM*. I. You can't just go on continuously pressing the button. Each push has to be separately enabled -- each time following a set protocol. II. The (helpless) polling officer, who's actually protesting, could have very well remotely deactivated the machine had it been EVM. <<< I have watched the video more than once. I did not see any protestation by anyone. There was no sound. There was someone waving a hand in front of the camera. I interpreted this as the shooting of the video was doing so with one hand (perhaps with the left hand and passing some kind of instruction with the right, together with some verbal instructions. Later they realized that the voice would have revealed the whole charade. So, they decided to make a copy of the video without the sound. This second video is the one they decided to share. Logically, which party would be more likely to have perpetrated the violence? Trinamul must have realized that it is winning the election. So, it is less likely to have perpetrated violence. The party with the better track record of violence is BJP. So, it is quite likely that the violence was perpetrated by BJP. Likewise, logically speaking, which party would be interested in propagating the ballot-stuffing video? Since Trinamul won the election in a big way, it is less likely to propagate the video. BJP, which is keen on continuing to use EVMs for bigger and "*the biggest*" elections, is more likely to propagate the video, staged or real. Finally, if it was staged, which party would be more interested in staging the same? Again, the culprit appears to be the BJP. All of these things follow from the *forensic theory of crimes*: namely, the party or individual who stands to gain from the crime is the most “ *likely*” perpetrator of the crime. I am only claiming likelihood, without the claim of certainty. I am surprised, a person so knowledgeable as you are, falls into their trap so easily, without questioning whatever is being propagated.III. Of course, the EVM is just no answer to violence. But, it *restricts* (terror-enabled) false voting in a very big way. <<< EVMs enables showing false voting result in as big a way, as desired by the perpetrator without enabling/perpetrating any kind of terror -- clean surgical operation, without any bloodshed!!!!! >>> On violence: I. < https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=978672863182855&id=100031204523777
[Btw, all these are all taken from the FB wall of a (self-proclaimed) Congress activist from Murshidabad. Regardless of the political affiliation, and all that it implies, there's no ground to suspect that any of these videos is/are doctored. Hence, quite valuable documents coming from a citizen journalist with a specific political orientation.] Sukla Dear Sati ji, Thanks for the response. I. Ballot stuffing in India must be quite old. Reportedly happening since 1957. Bihar, in particular was notorious for that. In West Bengal, it was resorted to in a big way in 1971 with the state machinery under the Congress control then fairly actively participating. It'd be resorted to in an even bigger way in 1972. This time, even counting was, allegedly, in a big way tampered with. Of course, with the active intervention of the state. *That also glaringly underlined what may happen with the ballot boxes when the state intervenes on behalf of one of the contending parties.* <<< You said ballot stuffing happened in a big way, ..., even bigger way ..., etc., without many any any statistics. Besides, how many of such cheating were of any consequence as far as the final result is concerned was not mentioned. As I have stated, paper ballot voting and hand counting, are prone to small scale cheating. But with the help of rigged EVMs, massive dacoities are likely to happen.II. It's only in 2004, the parliamentary poll used (only) EVMs. *No ballot stuffing. No tampering at the counting table*. <<< All such things “possibly done internally”, we do not know. >>> III. In West Bengal, the allegations are against the ruling TMC. *It's truly fantastical to propose that the TMC is doing something to discredit ballot boxes!* <<< Allegations are against the ruling TMC. That does not necessarily mean that TMC is the culprit in all or most of irregularities. The losing side may lodge most of the allegations, sensing losses in the final result. Whether TMC was responsible for most of the irregularities or not, interested party could have, wherever it may find friendly officials, staged the irregularities, purposely to discredit voting with ballot paper and counting manually.
Dear Sati ji, Thanks for the response. I. Ballot stuffing in India must be quite old. Reportedly happening since 1957. Bihar, in particular was notorious for that. In West Bengal, it was resorted to in a big way in 1971 with the state machinery under the Congress control then fairly actively participating. It'd be resorted to in an even bigger way in 1972. This time, even counting was, allegedly, in a big way tampered with. Of course, with the active intervention of the state. *That also glaringly underlined what may happen with the ballot boxes when the state intervenes on behalf of one of the contending parties.* II. It's only in 2004, the parliamentary poll used (only) EVMs. *No ballot stuffing. No tampering at the counting table*. III. In West Bengal, the allegations are against the ruling TMC. *It's truly fantastical to propose that the TMC is doing something to discredit ballot boxes!* Let me stop at that. Yes, demands should be raised to further increase, from the current 5, the number of EVMs per assembly seat to be cross-tallied with the VVPAT slips. (Ref.: < https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/count-vvpat-slips-of-5-booths-in-each-assembly-seat-sc/articleshow/68786810.cms
.)Sukla On Wed, Jul 12, 2023, 11:29 Satinath Choudhary <sati...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Sukla jee, I would make my response brief: You agree that the world over, people agree that EVMs can be rigged, and therefore they all, including India, require paper trails. The difference is that most countries have some civility left in them, with the exception of India, where there is no civility left in the current government. Most other countries that use EVMs use paper trails also. In India, we do have paper trails, but in particular, the Modi government does not allow paper trails to be counted except one or two per constituency or something like that. If the government wins with the help of EVMs, they would know where and which EVMs were rigged, and would make sure that the corresponding VVPATs are not subjected to verification count. *Therefore we must avoid the use of EVMs all over India. * Using "terror-enabled" ballot stuffing some vote thievery may be happening, and some of them may be recorded and shared. There is also a good possibility of "staging" such ballot stuffing for the purpose of discrediting paper ballots and hand counting. On the other hand, we do not know whether Indian EVMs are rigged or not. If they are rigged, there is no way to find out about their use, unless one of the BJP-RSS operatives betrays the secret code used for the " *dacoities*" to the opposition or the press. -Satinath ======= On Sun, Jul 9, 2023 at 2:20 PM Sukla Sen <sukl...@gmail.com> wrote:*https://www.facebook.com/reel/1023463141924905 <https://www.facebook.com/reel/1023463141924905>* *This would have not been possible with the EVM*. I. You can't just go on continuously pressing the button. Each push has to be separately enabled -- each time following a set protocol. II. The (helpless) polling officer, who's actually protesting, could have very well remotely deactivated the machine had it been EVM. III. Of course, the EVM is just no answer to violence. But, it *restricts* (terror-enabled) false voting in a very big way. On violence: I. < https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=978672863182855&id=100031204523777
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