Embedded indexing for CUP

[a.eh...@btinternet.com]

Dear fellow Sky users

I know this isn't strictly a Sky query.

I have been offered my first ever CUP and embedded indexing project which I have to complete in Word. It is a history book and the author has provided loads of terms to include (but just as a list, no subheadings, etc).

I have received the instructions and they don't look too onerous to follow.

Just wondered, as I am a very old dog learning new tricks, how other people would approach the job if they were doing it for the first time? Is it best to do searches of the words supplied by the author and add tags accordingly? Do other people print out the hard copy and highlight as well?

Many thanks.

Avril

[AElfwine Mischler]

I've only written a few embedded indexes, but I would not refer to the author's list of terms. I would just go ahead and index as usual -- except that now you also have to figure out how to do it as an embedded index.

I've only twice been given an author's list. The first time I glanced through it -- everything was what I would expect to pick up. Midway through the index I checked it again and whoops! I had left out an important concept. (How did I fail to pick up "afterlife" in a book about ancient Egypt??) Another time the author (thankfully) provided a list of all the French nobility in the book, as they should appear in the index.

Taking the author's list and searching for the terms -- you're likely to miss some unless you search for all the variants; you'll still have to determine whether a term is part of a long discussion and where that discussion begins and ends; you'll likely pick up passing mentions because you're just looking for the search terms and not paying close attention to the text. Forget the author's list and index as usual.

 

Ælfwine Mischler

Personal email: aelfwine...@gmail.com

Business email: aelf...@mischlereditorial.com

Website: www.MischlerEditorial.com

Member, American Society for Indexing (ASI)

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[Cheryl Lenser]

I’ve done quite a few CUP indexes and other projects where the author supplies a list of terms. What I do is import the list into SKY and label the words in a different color. Then I index as normal. Near the end of the process I double-check to make sure I got all the author’s terminology. And yes, sometimes I’ve done a search of the entire manuscript and the term is nowhere to be found!!

I use DEXembed for CUP projects. There’s a learning curve but it works great. 

Cheryl Lenser

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 13, 2022, at 4:50 PM, 'a.eh...@btinternet.com' via SKYIndexUsers <skyind...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Dear fellow Sky users

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[Barry Campbell]

Word can use an AutoMark file.

This can be a three column table.

Column 1 contains search (trigger) terms.

Column 2 (optional) contains index entries using the Word format heading:subheading. 

Column 3 (optional) can be used for notes.

Selecting AutoMark from the INDEX form causes Word to look for the trigger terms and add XE fields. A 500 page book takes about a minute.

See the IndexExploit user guide for more information.

Barry Campbell

www.indexbase.co.uk

[Jochen Fassbender]

But doesn't AutoMark cause various indexing problems? For example, it can't identify the aforementioned passing mentions. And what about ranges? Also, there is the synonym and homonym problem.

As for an author's list of terms, I'd like to refer to Nancy Mulvany and how she handles it. She would put the list aside and only check it once she has finished her indexing, so as to see if she hasn't overlooked something. This also guarantees not to pollute one's index with passing mentions.

Of course, importing the list, label the terms, and include/exclude terms as the case may be is also a good approach.

Jochen Fassbender

-------------------------------
Indexetera - Indexing et cetera

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[Barry Campbell]

But doesn't AutoMark cause various indexing problems? For example, it can't identify the aforementioned passing mentions. 

## If passing mentions are included in the AutoMark file then they'll be picked up.

And what about ranges? 

## AutoMark creates insertion point entries only. Ranges can cause a problem when the document is imported into publishing software, you're dependent on skilled typesetters and sometimes custom software.

Also, there is the synonym and homonym problem.

## The multi-column AutoMark file supports the use of preferred terms.

Barry Campbell

www.indexbase.co.uk

[Jochen Fassbender]

Hmm, maybe I don't get it but how exactly can the AutoMark file distinguish between a term sometimes being a passing mention and sometimes not?

And indexes without ranges have a serious quality deficit, haven't they?

Jochen

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[sese...@gmail.com]

OK...I give...I looked for an explanation of "CUP book" and all I got was a reference to a pamphlet on selecting bra sizes...

???

J.

[Matthew MacLellan]

Cambridge University Press.

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[Barry Campbell]

Hmm, maybe I don't get it but how exactly can the AutoMark file distinguish between a term sometimes being a passing mention and sometimes not?

## it can't

And indexes without ranges have a serious quality deficit, haven't they?

## There's a known compatibility mismatch between Word and InDesign relating to range definitions that must be mastered by typesetters. This causes indexers to sometimes avoid using ranges. CUP understand it (mostly). Many publishers and indexers don't.

Barry

www.indexbase.co.uk

[Shmuel Gerber]

Barry,

Can you provide more details on this? What does the indexer need to do and what does the typesetter need to do to make the ranges get imported properly into InDesign?

I saw in the IndexExploit documentation to try to limit the use of page ranges in the index when exporting to InDesign, but that doesn't seem very helpful. 

--Shmuel Gerber

[Barry Campbell]

Shmuel,

Thanks for asking.

I'm going to put you on the spot. Have you experienced Word to InDesign index transfer problems yourself. 

It would be good to be on a level playing field.

Barry

www.indexbase.co.uk

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From: Shmuel Gerber <gerber...@gmail.com>
Sent: 11 August 2022 17:59
To: Barry Campbell <barry.c...@indexbase.co.uk>
Cc: SKYIndexUsers <skyind...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [SKYIndexUsers] Embedded indexing for CUP

 

[Barry Campbell]

2nd reply,

CUP understand the issue and have processes to address the mismatch of range definitions between Word and InDesign. That's why they are in favour of Word embedded indexing.

Barry

www.indexbase.co.uk

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From: Shmuel Gerber <gerber...@gmail.com>
Sent: 11 August 2022 17:59
To: Barry Campbell <barry.c...@indexbase.co.uk>
Cc: SKYIndexUsers <skyind...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [SKYIndexUsers] Embedded indexing for CUP

 

[Shmuel Gerber]

No, I've never attempted embedded indexing, and I've never attempted bringing an embedded index into InDesign. I would want to know if and how it works before doing it or even deciding whether it's worth it. If there's a reliable way of bringing an index with ranges into InDesign from Word, then the extra typesetting control of InDesign might be worth the effort. If not, it would make more sense to publish straight from Word or else to forgo the embedded indexing process and just make a separate index using the typeset page numbers after placement in InDesign. 

--Shmuel Gerber

[Barry Campbell]

The issue is this... 

Word defines index entries using XE fields and optional referenced ranges.

InDesign uses index entry markers and optional ranges measured from the marker.

Considering insertion point entries first....

In Word the XE field contains index entry information. The location defines the page number in the generated index.

Sublety...

Using the Word indexing module, the XE field is inserted at the end of the selected text. This may cause the XE field for a very long entry to appear on the next page.

When these entries are imported to InDesign, location mapping is aligned.

A range index entry in Word references a bookmark. The XE field referencing the range can be anywhere in the document. If it's too far from the range then it will impact page number order in the generated index.

InDesign index entry markers define range starts. Range extents are defined as distances from the range start as paragraphs, characters and other measures.

For compatibility, Word XE fields must be at the beginning of the range. 

When imported to InDesign, range information is lost and must be reconstructed. This falls to the Typesetter.

As I've gathered information about the Word indexing module and compatibility I've included it in the IndexExploit user guide. For compatibility, see page 51.

Barry Campbell

[Shmuel Gerber]

Thank you. I'm not sure I get all that, but if I understand correctly, you're saying there is nothing the typesetter can do but adjust the end of every index range entry? How does the publisher do that for an entire book? 

--Shmuel

[Barry Campbell]

CUP packagers have developed custom software to assist. They don't release much about what they do. 

Clearly, publishers that don't understand the issues are confronted with a problem. 

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From: Shmuel Gerber <gerber...@gmail.com>
Sent: 11 August 2022 20:34

[Barry Campbell]

IndexExploit has features that help.

For insertion point entries the XE field is placed at the beginning of the selected text.

For range entries the XE field is placed at the beginning of the referenced range.

If another indexing method has been used, range XE fields can be moved automatically to the beginning of referenced ranges.

Information can be written into XE fields after indexing. This can be hidden, to be read by importing software. Or visible, to be read by typesetters. It contains range extent as paragraphs for compatibility with InDesign.

Barry Campbell

www.indexbase.co.uk

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From: Shmuel Gerber <gerber...@gmail.com>

Sent: 11 August 2022 20:34