Unsolicited Commercial Communications

[David Stentiford]

Dear SFR Community:

Within the San Francisco Randonneurs Google Group, we have a shared set of rules and norms that ask us to avoid unsolicited commercial emails in this space. With this in mind, I want to ask that this practice be extended, as a shared norm, across all of our common SFR communication channels (e.g., info-docs, social media posts, general club emails, monthly newsletters). Some of us may be fine with being solicited through SFR communication channels, others may not. I, personally, do not wish to grant my consent to commercial solicitation, in any SFR communication forum. To my knowledge, our club has no written rules or guidelines about these matters, other what has been established and maintained with regard to this forum. Therefore, I feel it would be too much to ask that our club volunteers spend their time deciding which types of commercial solicitations are acceptable, when, where, and so on. It would put them in a tight spot. Let's not put this on their shoulders by agreeing to keep our personal enterprises separate from SFR communication streams, however related or unrelated these ventures may be with cycling. I am asking that we respect our common streams of communication and information, broadly and generously. 

Regards,
Dave
12278

[Noah Swartz]

For those of you not signed up for Del Puerto Canyon, I think David is referring to this text that was at the end of the info doc:

Hummingbird Fuels: A Randonneuring Inspired Business

We started this company when we were completing our first SR series to qualify for PBP. We needed a solution for getting more carbs/hour that was affordable and helped us avoid the dreaded bonk. Richard (RUSA #15460, Food Scientist, and my husband) created Hummingbird Fuels. It's a high carb drink mix (delivering electrolyte and 60 grams of carbohydrates per serving). With two flavors, Girona Orange and Arctic Berry (each inspired by our down cycling adventures in Spain and the Midnight Sun 1200k Randonée in Sweden and Norway).

We're excited for you to try this and will be offering samples at the start of the Del Puerto Canyon 200k. No pressure, just wanted to spread the word about our business.

https://www.hummingbirdfuels.com/ 

Please let me know if you have any questions. And thank you for the opportunity.

Cheers
Lisa 

RUSA # 15461

I too had conflicting feelings about it. On the one hand it has some useful information in it. 

Lisa will be at the brevet - cool!

Lisa has started a company - cool!

Lisa will be giving people free drink mix - also cool!

But the inclusion of direct marketing copy was a bit jarring, especially in the context of an info doc rather than a personal email. Did I need to know that the two flavors were named Girona Orange and Arctic Berry? Probably not. And I was left wondering if there would have been a way to convey the useful information without the tone of product placement.

Like with David, it raised all sorts of questions for me. Does marketing and advertising have a place in official club communications? And how does it look to one of the many new members joining a brevet for the first time to see content like this in their first email from Rob.

While I'm sure that all of the different bike events that happen blend together for some of you. You might draw little distinction between an organized Century, a Grasshopper Race, a Gran Fondo, and a SFR Brevet - besides maybe the entry cost. But personally I have always cherished how SFR and RUSA and by extension Randonneuring is a volunteer run non-profit. The club and its operations are a labor of love by those who care about cycling, and although they could easily design it to financially benefit them they instead work to make sure it is accessible to as many potential riders as possible. Even at PBP I felt this energy - in the way the ACP operates and how all of the French people and towns came out to support us, often offering food at near cost, staffed by local volunteers.

To me this stands in stark contrast from these other events, which are often plastered with sponsorship logos, offer loads of free and unwanted samples at the beginning or end of the ride, and charge exorbitant entry fees. These events feel transactional, slightly exploitative, and induce in me a sort of panic about my ability and status in the world of 'serious' cycling. As the world crumbles under the weight of late stage capitalism, I really enjoyed finding a little community where I felt sheltered from these sorts of influences. This, to me, made Randonneuring unique, and something that I wanted to contribute my time and effort to - specifically because I knew that it would act as encouragement for others to do the same for no greater reward than the sense of satisfaction conveyed when seeing others ride and overcome their own concept of their limits. Together we are building a community, and it's a community that I'm proud to be part of and support - specifically because it is just that, a community.

So while I wish Lisa all the best in her business efforts, and I'm happy that she's finding professional success in the area of her passions (cycling), I have to say that I find it off putting to see her use official club communication channels to market herself and her business - such as the info doc and club instagram. I know that Lisa loves Randonneuring and SFR and I'm willing to guess that she is excited to share the things she's passionate about (i.e. her business) with the rest of us who she sees as peers. But I worry that it comes off less like that and potentially more like her using her social capital to build hype around a product that she intends to profit from. I've heard from others besides Dave that this left them feeling icky, and I'm guessing that a lot of other people (some so new to randonneuring that they're not on this list) felt similarly. 

So while I'm not as sure that I can draw a clear line of what or what should not be allowed in various forums, I would encourage everyone to reflect on the way that their interactions either support or degrade the social fabric of the club, and endeavor to keep SFR feeling like the magical place it is.

Thanks,

Noah

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[lisa charlebois]

We need to clear the air.

1. I asked Rob if it would be appropriate to bring free samples and he asked for a blurb to include the info doc. I do not author info docs.

2. This request was also passed through and approved by the SFR board.

3. I do not use SFR social channels to showcase my personal business. I’ll be happy to discuss any content you feel like is inappropriate. I create and post randonneuring and club content. I also do not post my personal business in the newsletter (which I also author).

4. RUSA features ads in their quarterly magazine all the time. This sport is not without commercialization. 

We started this business because of randonneuring and specifically this club. This was simply an opportunity to connect with my fellow SFR members and give away samples. I’m sorry if you feel like this oversteps the commercial boundaries. 

Thank you

lisa

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sfrandon/CAM6r7g0MvkQiZSVTEzvu%2BhP8rM3c6%3DQ0tSuySxo%3DBeALqSZdKg%40mail.gmail.com.

[David Stentiford]

My request was an appeal to all of us, looking toward the future. With this additional information, I now think I can make a finer point.

In this Google Group, we have a clear set of rules with an explicit request for no commercialized communications. Now, it would seem, there is a different, unwritten set of exceptions in our other common club spaces. Yet, I hope this is not the case.

RUSA's newsletter is only relevant to our discussion in so far as it shows the problem at hand. RUSA has an explicit open market for advertising. SFR has no such thing. SFR only has a statement in this Google Group which explicitly asks members to avoid commercial communications. It seems fair, intuitive, and right to believe that this norm is the expectation for all of our shared spaces.

I am asking for these norms--which have been in place on this forum since 2012--to be collectively and respectfully held by all of us. I am asking for businesses to not solicit our board members. And I am now asking for board members to respect the shared spaces of our club by holding to these norms in all outlets--no quid pro quo, no exceptions. There is no reason for such added complications. Let's keep things clear, consistent, and fair.

To my knowledge, SFR has never been an open market for private entrepreneurial endeavors, and I see no advantage to all of us in making it one now. Our club has made strides in the past years in strengthening how volunteers participate. And, at the same time, we often hear how club volunteers are maxed out or in short supply. Given this, let's all commit to not burdening the board with personal requests.

Moreover, we need to keep in mind that there has been no consent from club members, to the board, or to any private company, that says we're collectively open for business. For whatever it's worth, I am not open for business when I engage with SFR. I give no consent for this.

We often gather for potlucks at the end of our rides. These shared meals happen through a spirit of generosity and community. Let's let these norms guide us in how we feed, support, and care for one another. At the end of the day, SFR is us and how we take care of one another. It's a party thrown by volunteers and made great by all of us. Let's keep to this spirit, between controls and between brevets.

Regards,
Dave

[David B]

Perhaps we should change the guidelines.   In the 2012 email David S. linked, he left out some of the phrasing. "Inflammatory/disparaging personal remarks, off-topic posts, and unsolicited commercial email (spam) will not be tolerated and should not be posted to the group."

I do not consider the aforementioned message as spam. (and for transparency, I have no affiliation with the product or the owners).

I would love an opportunity to offer my financial support ("voting with my dollars") to members of our community.  Do you make bikes? bike bags? Perhaps you build wheels.  Would you like to give me a discount at the bike shop you own?  I have purchased used gear from SFR members that posted their sale items on this list.  I have purchased new items from Dill Pickle Gear, just because.  A 300-member bike club that I was a member of in SoCal, led me to my realtor for the sale of my condo; a bathroom remodel contractor; and a bike race coach ... all fellow members of the club.

None of these business transactions were spam related, and I never felt compelled to only interact with club members.  It was simply easy to do and their reputation relies on a stellar experience for me since a bike club can be a "small town".

Dave B.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sfrandon/0a049719-f6ad-4696-b1d5-32d783bf8e2bn%40googlegroups.com.

[David Stentiford]

The rules here in this group explicitly encourage peer-to-peer sales and discourage unsolicited commercial email.

I support this.

Changing these rules will not address the issue I’ve raised. That misses the point. The point is that we have no rules for dealing with commercial marketing in other SFR spaces: social media, info-docs, etc. In the absence of rules, things get murky, fast. I appreciate that.  For the sake of fairness and respect for our shared community, I’m asking folks to exhibit good judgement by taking steps to avoid these conflicts in the first place. The norm to cultivate seems clear to me: peer-to-peer is ok; business-to-membership marketing is not ok. Are there grey areas? Sure. 

I do not wish to pass judgement on the Hummingbird Fuels business. 

Dave G, I’m glad you’ve connected with folks in your SoCal bike club to buy goods and services. That’s great. Our bike club is not quite like a town square because our bike club is run by volunteers. So we need to approach it with a little more care. 

Dave S

[Noah Swartz]

Thanks Lisa for clarifying and Dave and David for your thoughts.

First off let me say that I really appreciate all of the work that Lisa puts into the instagram and newsletter - volunteering for SFR is often a thankless job, and our communication is miles above that of other clubs, and we have Lisa's dedication and enthusiasm to thank for that.

And I should also clarify that I don't think Lisa did anything malicious here - I just wanted to encourage Rob and the board, as well as other members, to consider the space we're cultivating with the club. To that end I actually think that I am in agreement with Dave B here. I personally wouldn't have minded if Lisa had sent that email to the social group - as I do want this group to be, just that, social. If someone is part of our community and has something to share that is relevant to the interest of the club, I actually would like to hear it and support them if I can. Are you opening a new bike shop, starting a bike clothing company, organizing a group ride for charity? I think all of those things would be great to hear about on the list, whether they are explicitly commercial or not - so long as we use some discretion to avoid spam and reduce the amount of unwanted communication. I think people would get understandably upset if someone told us about every sale that their bike shop was running, or copy and pasted general marketing emails to the list. But directly tailored messages about big events, including a drink mix launch, I'm all for.

I think where I draw the line is the inclusion in official documents. If Rob is telling all 120 members of a ride to PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE DOCUMENT EVEN IF YOU'VE READ IT BEFORE and it contains information that isn't vital to my completing the ride and conforming with RUSA rules and regulations, I'm going to be less inclined to read through it next time. I also feel iffy about promotion at brevet starts or finishes - but I can definitely see an argument for it in certain cases, so I'm not going to try to come up with some clear definition of what is ok or not, as David has attempted to do.

What I would like is to just encourage people to consider the community that you want to foster here in SFR and do what you can to lift it up and strengthen those aspects of it. SFR is special, let's keep it that way.

And I will again say to Lisa - congrats on the product launch! The beginning stages of a business are stressful and hard, and I'm sorry for adding additional stress to that time as I'm sure you've had your hands full with production, delivery, dialing in your formula, and all of the other wrinkles that go into these first few weeks of business. You even hosted a fundraising ride for LA Wildfire victims, no doubt donating some of your initial proceeds to those who lost their homes in the recent fires, which is a really kind and generous thing to do. So let's all give Lisa our support as a member of our community, and help Hummingbird Fuels grow into a brand that exists far and wide outside of our little pocket of the biking community.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sfrandon/3ee5d8e1-5c61-4664-98b6-c9ad5e7c9b4an%40googlegroups.com.

[Rob Hawks]

Noah wrote:

".... I'm going to be less inclined to read through it next time. "

I'd like to point out a few things that people seem to be papering over.

First, the SFRandon email list is not made up of only SFR members. There are many, many subscribers who have never been SFR members. The list was created to include them if they wanted to subscribe. Furthermore, SFRandon does not contain 100% of SFR members. In fact the number of current SFR members that are on the SFRandon list  might not even reach 50% of SFR membership. Furthermore, a great number of subscribers to SFRandon have their subscription set to 'no email'. The SFRandon list is administered by SFR, but it is not a complete subset of 'our community'.

Because there is no chance of communicating to 100% of the riders registered for a given ride by posting something to the SFRandon chat list, it is a long way from being the best means of communication for that purpose. Therefore, as RBA, I create a list of recipients for every single event we do and I include specific information for the upcoming event.

Over the years, I've clearly understood that not everyone reads the info docs I send out as it is. An example from today would be this. Included in info doc #2, is this:

The following are the control directions for each type of Proof of Passage. You must pick one for submission after the ride. Some riders use a backup form of proof of passage (ie, GPS recording, but also take photos at controls as back up) during the ride.

GPS recording:

Start control: Start your gps device as you leave the start control (please only record the brevet route, not any riding to the start or from the finish control)

Finish control: Stop your gps device as you reach the finish control, save the recording and upload to either Strava, RidewithGPS, or Garmin Connect and within 24 hours of finishing send the activity link to sfr....@gmail.com

Brevet Card:

Start Control: Staffed, have the volunteer initial

Answer all info control questions for control 2-4. 

Finish Control: Staffed, have the volunteer initial

Within 24 hours of finishing, send a scan or photo of your completed brevet card to sfr....@gmail.com

ALL RIDERS, ALL FORMS OF PROOF OF PASSAGE:

Within 24 hours of finishing, send your proof of passage to sfr....@gmail.com.

Note the parts highlighted in green. Every single event, I receive email in my inbox from several riders who send me their proof of passage and don't send it to the address clearly listed. I just expect it, and I deal with it, I don't get angry and often times I reply back with a message asking if the rider had a good ride, enjoyed the route, etc. I still make the effort to include all the vital info just in case someone reads it.

[quick aside: I've had several people tell me they appreciate the information included

I've also come to expect to hear from someone that a) thinks I didn't include something or b) shouldn't have included something. I've also had people complain about the format of the message. I've had people tell me that 200kms that start at 7am are too early, and others that state that 200kms that start at 8am are too late.

When reg forms are designed, and routes are designed and start times are set and info docs are written and volunteer staffing is worked on, and more, as RBA I need to think way beyond what do I like or what benefits me as a rider the most. I have to think about the circumstances for riders that will finish hours ahead of me (a growing group) and riders that will finish hours behind me (a shrinking group). The circumstances are necessarily going to be different than the ones I experience so I have to consider what will be needed and how that will change over the course of the event. I also have to consider not putting too large a burden on the Volunteers, for example not expecting them to sit waiting when a control opens *per RUSA control time calculations* for something like a 600k when I know that no rider will ever show up that early. My first volunteer experience for SFR, *before* I became RBA was the finish control at the GGB for a 600km. The only person I saw for the 3+ hours I was there was the next volunteer that relieved me.

So, you can imagine my reaction to read that someone is essentially telling people they maybe don't need to read the info docs, in a way that may imply that it is just marketing for something of no real interest. The clipped section attributed to me was in fact clipped. Here is the entire section that led off the info doc:

Please read this entire info doc.

Even if you've read these info docs before, please read all of this. There are new elements to this, including a road condition report from the pre-ride last Saturday!!!

Plus, beneath that is an announcement from one of our members who is launching Humminbird Fuels

I would think even a casual reader of the document would know that it is only at the very end that there was an item that is conceptually separate from the rest of the info doc, and they would have been able to understand that right from the top and could have easily decided to stop reading when they reached that point (immediately after the detailed road condition report). The note comprised 7 sentences if you include the 'Thank you' line. That is not even 1/10th of the size of the entire document. Additionally, the item only was relevant to those coming to the ride start so that is why it was in the info doc and not posted to the email list where it seems some feel it would have been just fine there. In sum, I don't appreciate the implication that info docs can be dismissed. That would in effect mock all the effort I and other volunteers put in to make our events better.

rob

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sfrandon/CAM6r7g3%2B4moRTkfQGmh8U0kqToVV%2B7O40namo6-MtFLyqh-57Q%40mail.gmail.com.

[David Stentiford]

It's not self-evident, to my mind, what benefits we'd collectively stand to gain from transforming in-person SFR spaces into low-key marketplaces, as has been gestured to above. I can, however, suggest clear reasons not to invite such a change. In this regard, it makes more sense, to me, to keep things as they have been, with regard to in-person gatherings.

Let me explain: I see SFR spaces like potlucks. They are not like shopping malls, town squares, Tupperware parties, or yard-sales. They need to be maintained as potlucks. Why? Transforming in-person SFR spaces into anything else will multiply our organizational needs and raise further questions of accessibility and inclusion. The aim, as I see it, is to keep limited SFR resources cycling back into club, rather than opening the doors for our collective resources to be funneled away from the club. Club volunteers have limited time and resources. The club has no established process for allowing folks to access club spaces as a marketplace. Let's not allow the club to spring a leak.

Currently, as this weekend's case has shown, the process to market a product at an SFR event required board approval and additional coordination. In the specific case of Saturday's event, likely, it wasn't much time. Nevertheless, the fact remains that the ride's overhead was increased. (Potentially, this all might come out in the wash if our accounting includes all of the generous volunteer time that members from the company have offered to the club in their a personal capacity. But this kind of quid pro quo leaves the door open to all sorts of new questions like, "Well, can an exception be made for so-and-so, given that they have done XYZ . . . ?" "If a for-profit company is also giving money away to charity, does this also change the calculus?" In the big picture, we run the risk of marginalizing club members, and of volunteering becoming transactional when we bring these questions of social accounting into the mix. We gotta keep our mix as simple as possible.

Even more generally, turning our in-person spaces into markets will transform the nature of volunteering, and the shared purpose of our events. We often hear eleventh-hour requests for additional volunteer support. If rides become marketplaces, the simple fact is, more total volunteer hours will be cumulatively needed to maintain those multiplied functions when rides have additionally transformed into platforms for trading and marketing. We don't want the Volunteer Coordinator's role to have the additional responsibility of wrangling sponsoring companies, etc. Likewise, in some meaningful way, volunteering for SFR itself would also change in that new world of rides-as-platforms. Like the coordinator, volunteers would likewise be put in an awkward spot. A question like this one, "Do I want to support SFR with my time?" is multiplied like this: "Do I want to support SFR with my time, given that SFR is supporting companies XYZ?" By transforming our rides into platforms for marketing, we undercut our organizers and our volunteer pool.

I can't see how all of these added complications will strengthen incentives to volunteer or bolster the social fabric of our club. From my view, it will mostly do the opposite, create more headache, more inter-personal contention, more issues of who's included, how, and why.

Noah's and Rob's points about the info-doc is worth considering.  We can think of start controls and finish controls, like info-docs, as a type of "required reading." That is, if a person wants to ride a brevet, pop, or other type of randonnée, they, by definition, have to interact in those very spaces. Within those spaces, I, personally, do not want the additional pressures of being asked to "vote with my dollars." On the flip side, I don't want my very presence at an event to be transformed into a potential business opportunities. That is, by my fellow club members, I want to be seen as a club-member and as an individual, not as potential point of sale, as a way to move units, a means to someone's personal ends. Please don't treat me as a customer when I come to a ride. I don't consent to this.

In my view, we need fewer things to worry about at brevets. Our rides can be hard enough as they are! Likewise, we need our coordinators and volunteers to have fewer things to worry about when asking for help or when deciding to lend a hand.

There's no good reason we need to let the vibe and context of our brevets slowly mirror the way we transact our lives on social media platforms where sharing in the pleasures of cycling is increasingly dominated by brands using riders to "tell stories" or cyclists using their stories as a way of reviewing or advertising products. Whether or not you like that sort of thing, we can all agree, I think, that we have endless opportunities for that online. SFR is _our_ story to tell; let's not absentmindedly allow our club to mirror the structures of platforms. There's no easy substitution for the spaces of SFR; there's ample ways to connect with brands online.

Compared to all of our communication channels, this Google Group is perhaps the space that is the least like "required reading." Tuning-in or tuning out to this specific Google Group is least tied to club participation. In this respect, I'd personally welcome this platform being recognized as the appropriate venue for discussing fund-raisers, club-related bike biz endeavors, a cottage-industry bike-related product launches, bake sales, a club-related youtube channel,  and so on. So in this way, perhaps I'm not too far off from some of what Dave G and Noah have been talking about. Maybe we put the SFR-adjacent stuff here and leave and clearly define the common the boundaries of our newsletter, info-docs, and in-person spaces. That's a norm change I could get behind.