Request for feedback on the vests before we lock them in for a future order

[Robert Cauthorn]

All,

Now that people have had some time to ride in our new style vests, I'm curious about feedback. 

For the most part what I've been told anecdotally has been extremely positive, but I'd love to capture any suggestions you have here.

The reason is this: the odds of opening another ordering window this fall is pretty strong. It appears we've got enough continued interest for a minimum order. 

So before that happens, if we want to make changes, I'd like to get working on that. 

One thing from my experience is that despite our efforts, the zippers can still snag.

I'm a total zipper klutz -- seriously, it's like I have a zipper disability or something --  and I definitely snagged my vest. 

However, since the backing was heavier, it certainly cleared more easily than the RUSA vest. I was able to clear a snag in a few seconds as opposed to minutes by the road cursing with the RUSA vest.

Did any of you have problems with snagging?

Did the fit work for you?

Did you like the double zippers? Etc.

Please post any reactions to this thread so we can try to make them even more perfect....

Thanks!

Bob

[Metin Uz]

I like the design and especially the two-way zipper, but the cut did not work well for me. Compared to my Mavic Vision vest, it is too long on the torso, especially in the front, so it bunches up in the riding position. 

BTW, I have had many people ask if one needs to be an SFR member (I don't want to go there!) to order jerseys and vests, or anyone can order from a website.

--Metin

[Eric Norris]

Bob:

I’ve been quite pleased with the new vest. Nicely made, and I expect it will last longer then the PBP vests I’ve been using. No problems with the zippers. 

–Eric N

On Sep 23, 2019, at 9:49 PM, Robert Cauthorn <bobca...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Arnel Dionisio]

Bob,

snagged zipper more than a few times 🙂 the manufacturer could definitely improve on this. 

Otherwise it great. Wearing it at PBP was a smart decision, it served as a good conversation starter for other English speaking riders . RobHawks and other SFR riders could spot me in the middle of the night while I was hallucinating 😁

Would order a size smaller if we ever open ordering again. 

Arnel

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[Brian Feinberg]

Overall, the vests are pretty awesome, and it was great that we could all find each other with them. However, I too had zipper problems, but mostly because it was hard for me to just get the zipper started. In my defense, not only are my eyes lousy, but after all the only time I'd be fastening the vest is in the dark.

On Monday, September 23, 2019 at 9:49:51 PM UTC-7, Robert Cauthorn wrote:

[C. Duque]

Bob, thanks for all your work on this project.

Unfortunately, after using it I did not care much for it. Here are the things that made this vest meh for me:

The cut is a little to loose for my taste, it does not help that the sizing runs on the large side. Me no like.

As Metin also noticed, the front is too long. IMO this vest is not cut for cycling.

I don't trust the rear pockets; it feels like my stuff is going to go flying out because their opening don't have a that snappy feeling of other vests or jerseys.

The fabric is unnecessarily thick and give this vest a bulky feel.

Carlos

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[Ely]

The wife commandeered my vest so I have no feedback.
However, she loves the sizing and has had no issues with the zipper, she uses it every day.
I need to order another one.

[William Monsen]

Bob,

The vest worked well for me. Fit as expected. I did snag the zipper a couple of times but it was not too hard to un-snag it. I suspect that this goes with the territory when a vest has a flap under the zipper.

Thanks again for setting this up!

Bill

William A. Monsen

22 Waterline Place
Point Richmond, CA  94801
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(510) 443-5768 (f)
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On Sep 23, 2019, at 9:49 PM, Robert Cauthorn <bobca...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[William Monsen]

Bob,

One more comment (based on a comment by Carlos): getting “tighter” elastic over the rear pockets would be greatly appreciated. I didn’t put stuff in those pockets for the reason Carlos said: they seem unreliable (although, on the other hand, I have never had anything actually fly out of the pockets, either!).

Thanks again!

Bill

William A. Monsen

22 Waterline Place
Point Richmond, CA  94801
(510) 235-9807 (h)
(510) 813-9685 (m)
(510) 443-5768 (f)
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[Greg Merritt]

First time I put the vest on, fresh out of the package in Rob's back yard, I did a quick zip aaaaand....SNAG!!

So, yeah, that is definitely not perfect, and while it does snag on my sometimes, I do believe that there has been some improvement in this regard compared to the previous version: seems less frequent, and may be a wee bit easier to liberate. (Not lots of time with the new one yet.)

Thanks, Bob!

-Greg

[Metin Uz]

I agree with Carlos, I think whoever designed the vest is not a cyclist. I think the easiest way to improve would be to copy the features from a Mavic vest: light rip-stop windproof fabric in the front, breathable fabric in the back, cut lower in the back. Mavic has a single zippered pocket in the back, but 3 pockets with elastic could work. Current vest has drain holes with grommets half an inch above the bottom, as if it's OK to have pockets half full of water! 

I plan to use the vest for commuting, but probably not for brevets.

 

--Metin

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[Metin Uz]

cut lower in the back. 

I meant with a dropped tail, or cut lower in the *front".

--Metin

 

[Rob Hawks]

Regarding the snagging of the zipper, this happened to me too a couple times. Like Bill I was able to un-snag it easily enough. I've never had any garment where the zipper didn't snag at least once. For this garment, I'm not 100% certain, but it may have only snagged when I *quickly* tried to zip or unzip and when I performed that action more deliberately I didn't get a snag. Maybe need more testing on that theory.

Bob, please put the rest of my comments in this context: I have yet to wear a cycling vest, reflective or not, that didn't give me issues in fit and functionality. I'll keep this vest and will wear it again. I like the pockets on it better than the Mavic vests I've had and better than the pockets on the non-reflective Voler vests (in terms of being able to reach into them). I might still be looking for the perfect vest though. The Mavic vest fits me a little better but that doesn't fit me perfectly either and I really dislike the rear pocket (and not just the zipper on that!)

rob

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[Charlie Martin]

Zipper: From other vests I've learned to be careful to adjust the vest before zipping to minimize potential for snagging. I think I've had the zipper snag exactly once, and it was an annoying snag where I had to pull over off the road and fiddle with the vest for a while. Overall it's snagging way less than the vest from the RUSA store. I'm slightly in favor of the double zipper and find that when I don't have the vest zipped up I keep the two zippers together near the bottom-middle of the vest under the assumption that I'll the vest won't become a full-blown parachute in the wind.

Rear pockets: The rear pockets are prone to dumping out their contents when I lean forward, e.g. to mess with my shoes. This happened to me at the beginning of the SEKI SR600. My phone (needed for ride validation!) fell out of the pocket while I was tightening my shoes and cracked a bit. :( I haven't had any pocket issues while on the bike. Wouldn't mind if they were a bit deeper or if that elastic thingy people mention were implemented, mostly to give additional confidence that bumps won't send contents flying.

No complaints about the fit or sizing, but I don't think I'm particularly picky on that except for ACP PBP jerseys.

- Charlie

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[Jon Spangler]

Bob,

Would it help if we all brought our new and old vests and had a discussion (a “vest hackathon”) on 

what to change in the VO Max vests (v.2)?

If we brought different vests, measuring tapes, chalk, and pins, we could experiment with some mockups (pin-ups?) to 

see what might satisfy some of the concerns raised here, from fit to pocket security and zipper snagging.

Jon Spangler

Alameda, CA 

On Sep 23, 2019, at 9:49 PM, Robert Cauthorn <bobca...@gmail.com> wrote:

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Jon Spangler
Writer/editor
Vice-chair, BART Bicycle Advisory Task Force (BBATF)
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"Bicycling has done more to emancipate women than any one thing in the world. It gives her a feeling of self-reliance and independence the moment she takes her seat; and away she goes, the picture of untrammeled womanhood."

— Susan B. Anthony

[Robert Cauthorn]

Everyone, thanks for the feedback so far! Keep it coming!

I’m working up a list on this.

Jon, thanks for the offer, but I don’t think a hack-a-thon is called for at this point

There are a couple of reasons I say that. 

First, of the more than 100 people who ordered vests, the overwhelming feedback has been these are pretty positive — along the lines of “don’t change a thing.” A lot of that has been direct comments.

Part of my goal by posting for feedback was to capture any issues from people who haven’t reached out — and also to foster a dialogue/consensus on any feature. 

Metin’s comments on the sizing are a little bit of an outlier — while a few have mentioned they would like it more fitted, most people I’ve heard from so far have said they sizing is pretty good for them. If if others have Metin’s experience, please weigh in!

However, the comments that the vests are too long in front is something that a number of people have expressed even while liking the overall fit.

By posting to the list I’m trying to flush out any large-scale concerns. But so far, the concerns I’ve heard have been fairly limited beyond the clear issue to keep working on with the zipper snagging, but that happens with $200 cycling jackets too.

Lastly there’s this — because VOMax manufactures offshore, the whole process of customizing is somewhat involved. So it’s not like we’re going to send them a pattern or anything. I need to spend some time talking with them after it looks like I’ve gotten all the feedback available.

Anyhow, to date — pending other input —  my punch list of improvements based on multiple observers with similar  comments consists of:

* Slightly shorter in the front

* Better elastic on the pockets

* continued work on the snagging on the zipper backing

* see if we can get a normal fit and “fitted” fit (since most people seem to like the overall fit, we’ll explore seeing if we can offer a “fitted” version on each size — kind of like “club” or “race” in jerseys

* magic dust to give the vest wearer and extra 50watts of power ( that’s my personal one!)

(Note, this list of improvements represents the incremental steps and core vest stay the same, double zippers, etc..)

More to come!

Bob

[Metin Uz]

Bob,

I hope I didn't sound too negative. I think Carlos also said he doesn't like the loose fit. 

If I compare it to L2S PBP vest provided by ACP (also used by SFR for 2011 PBP), I think VOMax is better, except perhaps too long. Mavic vests were better, but they have long been discontinued. Rapha Brevet vests also fit well, but technically they are not reflective enough. So I guess there is no perfect solution.

--Metin

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[eileen lloyd]

I also prefer the fit of Rapha womens vest but it doesn’t have double zip and is no way reflective enough. That being said I’m happy with vests I ordered from you on the first round.

Thanks 

Eileen 

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[Larry Sokolsky]

Metin,

I have this rapha vest and it has ample reflective area:

https://www.rapha.cc/us/en_US/shop/brevet-visibility-gilet/product/BVG01XX

Also great fabric and fit and no elastic on the bottom (which I hate - makes the vest ride up).  And no silly zipper flap to snag.  Only thing it’s missing is pockets.  Oh well - that’s what your rando front bag is for!

Larry

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[Roy]

I had zipper snagging. Again, in a hurry at the start. It really snagged good. I finally dealt with it at a control. I'm less bothered by the sagginess. Maybe because I'm so heavy these days.

Roy.

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[Metin Uz]

Larry,

I have the same vest and I like it, and perhaps it is reflective enough, but definitely does not meet EN1150 standard and you could not use it at PBP.

--Metin

On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 7:49:10 PM UTC-7, Larry Sokolsky wrote:

Metin,

I have this rapha vest and it has ample reflective area:

https://www.rapha.cc/us/en_US/shop/brevet-visibility-gilet/product/BVG01XX

Also great fabric and fit and no elastic on the bottom (which I hate - makes the vest ride up).  And no silly zipper flap to snag.  Only thing it’s missing is pockets.  Oh well - that’s what your rando front bag is for!

Larry

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[Robert Cauthorn]

Metin,

You weren't too negative at all -- I'm seeking feedback to try to improve it. No worries!

Fit issues are so highly dependent on people's builds that it can be tricky -- but that doesn't mean we can't try for perfection!

Question for everyone -- should we just try to ditch the flap behind the zipper altogether? I've never been convinced that it gives us much benefit wind-wise. 

Thoughts on that idea?

Bob

[Larry Sokolsky]

Bob,

I’d get rid of the wind flap.  The vest is primarily for visibility.  It is not a ski parka.

Larry

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[William Monsen]

Bob,

Your solution to get rid of the wind flap is brilliant! The marginal increase in wind resistance is not worth the snagging.

That being said, I love the vest and will wear it for visibility! FYI, I also like my Voler vests, which are very windproof even without a flap and have very good back pockets.

Bill

William A. Monsen

22 Waterline Place
Point Richmond, CA  94801
(510) 235-9807 (h)
(510) 813-9685 (m)
(510) 443-5768 (f)
wamo...@gmail.com

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[Rob Hawks]

Note the significant difference between the style of the zipper on Voler and Vo2 vests. The voler jersey has much larger teeth on the zipper (on the voler vests I have), maybe that helps reduce snags? 

I'm wondering if the interior flap behind the zipper serves more than the wind stopping function and also provides a layer between the zipper and folds in a jersey that might get caught in the zipper teeth. 

rob

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[Ely]

In regards to the zipper snag, zippers typically snag because of a little bit of fabric being caught in between the zipper puller and the zipper teeth (coil).

I wonder if adding a strip of 1.5" grossgrain ribbon, folded, to the fabric edge, BEFORE the zipper is sewn on would help stiffen the zipper area and reduce the amount of fabric that could potentially be caught in the zipper puller?

Or using a type of grossgrain ribbon that is stiffer or wider might make a difference.

Not sure.

Another issue with zippers is that the zipper teeth do not engage as the zipper puller is moving.

The puller has a little channel and the teeth come together inside.

Sometimes this feels like a snag, but it's actually the teeth not engaging correctly.

I wonder if there is a type of zipper whose teeth have a fancy way of engaging. No idea.

Bob, are there zipper choices when ordering from the vendor? worth asking?

Just some thoughts, hope this is helpful.

-Ely 

[William Monsen]

Rob,

Good point about the size of the teeth on the zippers.

My Voler vests do not have a piece of material behind the zipper and I find them to be very wind-resistant.

Bill

[eileen lloyd]

Eliminating the wind flap sounds like a great idea! I agree with Bill, my Grizzly Peak double zip vest is fine without the flap. The zipper also feels bigger.

Eileen 

Sent from my iPhone

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[Robert Cauthorn]

Ely/Rob,

The zipper variation thoughts are great and I'll investigate the options with the vendor when the full list for improvements is done.

On the backing -- stiffening it up some with some grosgrain was what I was thinking they were going to do when we talked about stiffening the backing before this last run. I'm still kind of suspecting that the backing should go, and if we go with a higher quality zipper we might avoid all of this. 

And frankly, a higher quality zipper would add, what, maybe a $1 or $2 to the cost. For easy zipping and almost no snagging? That's a cheap upgrade!

FYI, if it does appear a higher quality zipper will resolve this, I'll also try to source the zippers themselves separately so we can have some available to change the zippers in the existing vests if people want to undertake that themselves (or take it to an alterations place). Might be a good option to have.

Bob

[Metin Uz]

Bob,

The zipper on the last batch looks to be high quality. I think it's sewn reverse, at least compared to all the other vests I have looked at. The fabric backed side is facing inside, whereas it faces outside in other vests. Perhaps this is because of the inside flap, which other vests don't have.

--Metin

[Jon Spangler]

Bob and all,

I do not believe the zipper type (coil) or its quality are the primary cause of the zipper snagging: zippers often snag on

the lightweight jersey, vest, and jacket fabrics used in cycling garments.

The current VO Max  zipper flap can be easily redesigned (widened, stiffened with bias tape or grosgrain ribbon, or adding ribbon or 

piping to the outside edge, to name a few options) to maintain windproofness and keep the zipper from snagging on the costly wool or 

lycra-poly jerseys that are always under your vest.

Changing to a YKK or other toothed nylon zipper would add weight and make undoing zipper snags much more difficult. It also

eliminates the “self-healing” qualities of the current coil zipper. (I have been using outdoor zippers of all types for 50 years and spent time in 

the outdoor specialty industry: I can attest to the overall superiority of nylon coil zippers for such applications.)

As I said in my off-list emails to Bob and Metin, modifying the current vest should not be that difficult for a competent home seamster or 

seamstress if one wanted to stiffen or extend the zipper flap, tighten up the pocket elastic, or trim the girth or length of the current VO Max vest.

I like the double pulls on this VO Max vest but would prefer to have the zipper pulls on my right (while wearing the vest, that is) rather on my left.

Jon Spangler

Alameda, CA USA

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[Brian Feinberg]

Does anyone know how practical it is to replace one of the zipper pulls if one is -not- in fact a seamster? We noticed that that the upper pull on mine doesn’t zip the two sides together. 

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[Greg Merritt]

One more thing...if not too late!

On my previous two models of these (RUSA versions), after some time, the upper stitch on the horizontal reflective strip above the rear pockets has come undone, presumably due to passing my hand across it as I go fishing for a pocket.

Once this upper stitch comes undone, I invariable catch my hand in the open top of the reflective strip, as the reflective strip has become, effectively, a shallow, wide "pocket" above the real pocket.

It's pretty dang annoying, becoming more bothersome to me than even the sticky zipper.

(Ok, certainly an easy repair to re-sew....and there is a sewing machine at home....but...ugh.)

Thanks!

-Greg

[Eric Walstad]

The same happened to me. I fixed it myself with my sewing machine.

Eric

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[Robert Cauthorn]

Eric,

Greg was talking about his RUSA vest and expressing concern about the new ones in that area. When you say it happened to you too, do you mean it happened with the RUSA vest or it happened with the new ones?

Bob

On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 5:02:34 PM UTC-7, Eric Walstad wrote:

The same happened to me. I fixed it myself with my sewing machine.

Eric

On Sun, Oct 6, 2019, 10:57 Greg Merritt <greg....@gmail.com> wrote:

One more thing...if not too late!

On my previous two models of these (RUSA versions), after some time, the upper stitch on the horizontal reflective strip above the rear pockets has come undone, presumably due to passing my hand across it as I go fishing for a pocket.

Once this upper stitch comes undone, I invariable catch my hand in the open top of the reflective strip, as the reflective strip has become, effectively, a shallow, wide "pocket" above the real pocket.

It's pretty dang annoying, becoming more bothersome to me than even the sticky zipper.

(Ok, certainly an easy repair to re-sew....and there is a sewing machine at home....but...ugh.)

Thanks!

-Greg

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[Eric Walstad]

It happened to my SIR VOMax vest which I've had for about a year.
On mine, the stitching was SO close to the edge of the reflective
strip that it just pulled away from the stitching. I'll have a look at
the new SFR vest I have to see if it looks susceptible to the same
thing happening and report back.

Eric

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[Eric Walstad]

The stitching on the SFR Vest looks good. In the attached photo shows the rear reflective strip of two vests. The lower vest is the SIR one that I repaired. If you look closely you can see that the original stitching was too close to the edge.

Eric

[Robert Cauthorn]

Thanks for the followup Eric!

Bob

[LS McPhate]

I have found the sizing to be too roomy.  The vest fits well across my shoulders, but was huge around my tummy.  (American versus European sizing, I believe)  I had ordered a men's small.  Sizing is always a guessing game.  In general, i prefer vests not to have pockets, so I never used these pockets.  However, most people like pockets on vests.  I have snagged the zipper multiple times.  Despite these issues, the vest works well for me.

-lisamc