Orion Auction Spreadsheet - LET'S JOIN FORCES!

[Julien Lecomte]

Hi everyone,

Most of the Orion auction lots include multiple items. Example:

[Lot] of (15) Meade/Coronado Personal Solar Telescope, 40mm, f/10...

As a result, most individuals won't be too interested in bidding on some of those lots (or their bids will be too low and they may not get the item they are interested in...)

This means that we should try and join forces. To help achieve this, I scraped the auction website and have created a spreadsheet so that several people may signal their interest for a specific lot.

Here is a link to the online spreadsheet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Mxk3fkj3EUdJLioW-ryXDS8YlLxMZ8_-DgyOQLeo20o/edit?usp=sharing

Please, review the instructions and the disclaimer before editing the spreadsheet.

Feel free to share the link to this spreadsheet with anyone or any organization local to the bay area.

Thanks,

- Julien, aka Dark Sky Geek -

[Peter Santangeli]

I think you are going to see items from this auction on CloudyNights and Ebay for years.

That was my thinking. Buy what I need, and sell the extra.

The challenge with your solution is the trust aspect. And someone bidding in this way pretty much has to NOT bid traditionally too.

With the number of watchers on items I guarantee that there are some 'pro's or 'part time pro's engaged at this point. I'm sure there is a whole small industry of people doing that. I'm sort of surprised that someone didn't buy the whole inventory - probably what they have been trying to arrange for the last 6 months.

pete

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[John Pierce]

note in the fine print.... if a lot is, say, 10 units,  then your bid is multiplied by 10, eg, bid $100 and you're really bidding $100 each for the 10 for a total of $1000.   Then remember to add the 18% bidder fee, and 9.75% sales tax.

this auction is being run like fleabay, your bid is actually the MAX bid, and if you win, you'll pay what the 2nd largest bid was + the bid increment (which varies with the amount).

On Tue, Dec 31, 2024 at 9:59 AM Julien Lecomte <julien....@gmail.com> wrote:

[Peter Santangeli]

A couple of other things to note.

Removal by Jan 17'th. That's probably the only advantage us 'local's have.

Rigging/removal by appointment. That means there may or may not be someone around to help you get stuff out of the warehouse, and you may be responsible for paying them to help. So that big palette of scopes at the top of the shelving units may prove a problem. Something to look into.

Don't forget to add about %30 to the price you will pay! That is 'above and beyond' your bid. %18 for auctioneer and then sales tax

Has anyone been approved yet?

pete

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[Doug Loyer]

I signed up and got approved.  It's not a big deal; you just need to verify an email address.

Looks like an online, eBay-style auction.  Any bids in the last 10 minutes will extend the auction by 10 minutes, and they support autobid.

I am not familiar with most of the items.  Looks like they only have a few reflectors and I don't know how they compare.

Best

-Doug

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[Sathya Venkataraman]

Good idea! Thanks Julian. I am looking for some good binoculars and a computerized mount for my sky view pro mount. 

By the way, any suggestions on the binoculars? 

On Dec 31, 2024, at 9:59 AM, Julien Lecomte <julien....@gmail.com> wrote:



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[mtoma...@comcast.net]

John, you wrote, "note in the fine print.... if a lot is, say, 10 units,  then your bid is multiplied by 10, eg, bid $100 and you're really bidding $100 each for the 10 for a total of $1000."  Would you mind posting to this thread a link to where you saw that detail?  I cannot find it anywhere.  Furthermore, it seems like an illogical rule, particularly for mixed-item lots, such as lot #160.  This lot has three different items: 12 of the first item, 6 of the second item, 6 of the third item.  Thanks in advance for pointing me in the right direction to this "fine point".  Mark T.

[mtoma...@comcast.net]

Doug, you wrote, "Any bids in the last 10 minutes will extend the auction by 10 minutes".  Would you mind posting to this thread a link to where you saw that detail?  I cannot find it anywhere.  Thanks in advance for pointing me in the right direction to this particular auction rule.  Mark T.

[Tim Lorz]

I found this link about timed online auctions, this explains the details about the whole bidding on a lot, scroll a bit down...

https://support.bidspotter.com/hc/en-gb/articles/360006494514-Tips-for-bidding-in-a-timed-online-auction

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[mtoma...@comcast.net]

Perfect!  Thanks, Tim!

But these rules stink.  So much for my plan to bid on one lot of ten Coronado Solarmax III 90mm 'scopes (lot #341).  Or my plan to submit a slight over-bid in the last two seconds of the auction (like I used to do at eBay circa-1999).   :-(

[Philippe Fossier]

I would also be interested in the 

Coronado Solarmax III 90mm 'scopes (lot #341)

Anyone else?

- philippe

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[Jeff Crilly]

While some of this looks like new-in-box gear, some of it could very well be defective and/or returns. Yeah, bidding on a solar max 90 might yield a deal, but it seems risky.
Additionally, for sure there’s zero support after the sale.

[Easswar]

I'd be down for a solar scope as well!

Jeff, your concerns are very valid, but how would this differ from buying used equipment on CN or elsewhere? Not a rhetorical question, I really want to know.

Easswar 

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[Akarsh Simha]

I'd be interested in a solar telescope as well.

[Jeff Crilly]

>
> On Jan 1, 2025, at 2:27 AM, Easswar <eass...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> how would this differ from buying used equipment on CN or elsewhere?

In theory, with CN .. or better yet with a local seller…
- presumably the seller actually used the item, and can render a reasonably good faith disclosure on quality.
- The seller is around if the product has issues
- The manufacturer of the product would still be in business (and if not, then you can take that into account when doing the purchase).

A) even with simple products like a basic dob there’s no guarantee there won’t be an issue with the main component, the mirror.
B) some of the binos are tempting, but what about collimation etc. ? afaik these are all Orion branded, but there might be some other manufacturers (eg Ziess) mixed in.
C) eyepieces probably have a better quality likelihood. Iirc they were also selling televue.
D) iirc Orion had a generous return policy - it’s possible some of these lots contain returns.

If the bids are super low like below firesale prices then maybe… but if this turns out to be like an eBay auction with bids going up, then um no thanks due to the unknowns.

One thing I find rather amazing is the notion the whole line of Coronado products is now going to be orphaned. I’m surprised they didn’t find yet another buyer for all or part of the company, but perhaps there’s a general recognition that “all” can’t survive, and Coronado is too niche to survive alone. Or perhaps they held out splitting out part of the company to force a buyer to take it all.

[Ted Hauter]

I'm sure the Orion auction is 'As is".

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[Julien Lecomte]

Two of us have already expressed interest in lot # 341 (record # 236 in the spreadsheet). Marc, Easswar, Akarsh, I recommend you add your name to that row, and we can start a separate email thread to agree on logistics. If we're 5 people, we can probably put in a nice bid (say, $500 to start with, which means having to collectively pay $5K if this is the winning bid - one can always dream...) This used to be a very expensive telescope ($5K to $7K based on what I've seen) and whatever we don't use, we could sell on CN.

- Julien

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[John Pierce]

someone asked this morning where I saw the bit about the bid multiplier, I found it...   I can't find the question again (too much email, hah)

https://support.bidspotter.com/hc/en-gb/articles/360018547274-What-does-it-mean-when-a-lot-has-a-quantity

so if the lot does NOT have that statement then I guess the bid is for the whole lot.

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[Peter Santangeli]

FWIW, I did contact the auctioneer, and pickup will be by appointment. There will be a forklift and operator available (and I assume necessary in some cases based on where the purchased item is in the warehouse), but you will have to arrange payment with the operator.

I think Jeff has the right outlook here. Consider any purchase an 'adventure'. There may well be some great deals. But you also may find that some of the product is fresh from an overseas factory and has not had final inspection at all. In general the total lack of support for high ticket items should be a concern. You could literally end up with a box full of smashed OTA's with no recourse. This is the 'storage wars' show writ large. Some people have the wherewithal to go for it anyways. There have been outfits in the past (telescope trader, etc) that have specialized in this too. I also expect there will be people involved in the auction for whom this is just their business.

pete

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[Jonathan Lawton]

Usually auctions have some pre-auction inspection period. Is that not the case here?

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[Julien Lecomte]

With all the caveats that Pete wrote about, it is reassuring to know that nowadays, pretty much all astro equipment comes straight from the factory in China or Taiwan and no inspection is made after the equipment has left the factory. As long as the cardboard box is in good shape, the equipment inside should be in good condition. Not saying it will work perfectly, that's a different problem, but you finding a bunch of smashed OTAs is not very likely.

- Julien

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[Vishal Kasliwal]

I'm also interested in a solar scope. I'll add my name to the list... 

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[mccart...@yahoo.com]

Hi,

For those interested in the Coronados, be aware that someone who is probably in a position to know posted in Solar Chat that these are all defective warranty returns which were not repaired. 

I notice blue "QC Passed" stickers on some of the scopes, which appear to be placed over broken box packing tape.  But QC'd by whom?  And to what extent (eg., under the sun, imaging, confirming the blocking filters and etalons are ok? or cosmetically).  There is an inspection period (check the auction website) -- but even then, you may or may not be able to take things out of boxes, and very probably not throw it on a mount for a solar session to test the optics.  

There is a Discord server planning group buys (like this thread).  Someone there is posting they called someone named Paul who is somehow associated with the auction, and "Paul" asserts the Coronados are all brand new -- anything for sale which is used, so Paul says, is noted in the listing as such.

I've read some reviews of the SolarMax 90s and see they were plagued with performance issues (banding and so forth).  Given the interest in these are so high, the selling price could approach what retail was when they were discontinued (~$8500/ea).  One might have better options with newer, and supported, solar scopes?

Buyer beware!  

Mark

[Vishal Kasliwal]

That is really good to know.... 

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[mtoma...@comcast.net]

I am not familiar with how "Google Sheets" works, but I think that I just added my name and email address to two items that are lots of Coronado solar telescopes:  record #233 (lot #338) and record #236 (lot #341).  Perhaps the spreadsheet owner can confirm this?  I did not see a "Save" button anywhere.

I will defer to whom is leading the charge to select which of the lots we should bid on.  I identified NINE different lots that are for one or more of these telescopes in lot sizes ranging from one to ten.  I suppose that the greater number of telescopes in the lot, the fewer bidders there will be.  And for those risk-takers and lottery winners among us, maybe we bid on either of the two largest lot sizes (6 and 10) and then try to sell the excess scopes among this forum's members or via Cloudy Nights or eBay and split the profits.

Give me a little more time, and surely I can think of other ways to make this venture much more complicated than it needs to be.  ;-)

[John Pierce]

On Wed, Jan 1, 2025 at 11:53 AM 'mtoma...@comcast.net' via The Astronomy Connection (TAC) <sf-ba...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

I am not familiar with how "Google Sheets" works, but I think that I just added my name and email address to two items that are lots of Coronado solar telescopes:  record #233 (lot #338) and record #236 (lot #341).  Perhaps the spreadsheet owner can confirm this?  I did not see a "Save" button anywhere.

Google Sheets are 'live', anything you enter is automatically saved when you hit enter or move to another field, and anyone else viewing the same sheet should see your changes immediately in realtime.

 

[Ted Hauter]

Not to demean anything on the Coronados but I've been told most of the 90mm scopes cost are the filters. Get a TV 101 / 102 and you'll have a top shelf system. Pricey route to be sure.

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[John Pierce]

On Wed, Jan 1, 2025 at 7:52 PM Ted Hauter <thgo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Not to demean anything on the Coronados but I've been told most of the 90mm scopes cost are the filters. Get a TV 101 / 102 and you'll have a top shelf system. Pricey route to be sure.

price the Lunt Solar stuff...  They use APM ED optics and Lunts own Etalon filters. 

[Ted Hauter]

For sure John, the high cost of solar.

At least our star is big and close so aperture can remain small. Although there is that 10 inch Lunt..  🤔 😅

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[John Pierce]

On Wed, Jan 1, 2025 at 8:55 PM Ted Hauter <thgo...@gmail.com> wrote:

For sure John, the high cost of solar.

At least our star is big and close so aperture can remain small. Although there is that 10 inch Lunt..  🤔 😅

you need aperture for higher magnification too.  a 40mm scope won't be workable above about 80X

[Ted Hauter]

12 inch! 🤣

[John Pierce]

On Wed, Jan 1, 2025 at 9:12 PM Ted Hauter <thgo...@gmail.com> wrote:

12 inch! 🤣

of course, the daytime nature of solar astronomy has magnification limits due to daytime seeing conditions. 

[Jeff Crilly]

Fwiw. I find the Coronado setup (tilt tune) to be somewhat easier to use (tune) than Lunt pressure tuners.

Aperture is always good, but doublestack (narrow passband) is better. Eg it seemed to me the 80mm doublestack Lunt showed more Halpha details than a 90mm Coronado on the AP155. But the Lunt was of course dimmer.

If the Coronado gear can be obtained for a hefty discount and it is in good shape then it is definitely a deal. There were some issues with PSTs getting “corroded” - I have one of those PSTs form 2005 which Meade repaired for like $150 back in iirc 2012. 12 years later it still works great. (Fwiw my Lunt blocking filter also got corroded; and I sent it in to be repaired.)

-Jeff

[rgro...@mac.com]

Anyone know what happened with the Orion Auction? First it was scheduled to start on one date (1/6 or 1/7?), then it seemed to be delayed until yesterday (1/8). I looked at a number of items yesterday and stated it would run until 1/10. Now I check and it says it closed at the original close of this morning (1/9). Or am I just reading everything wrong.

 

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[Sachin MR]

They pulled it off

https://rabin.com/Overview/Auction/meade-orion-coronado-telescopes/

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[Akarsh Simha]

https://rabin.com/Overview/Auction/meade-orion-coronado-telescopes/

The details are here under "AUCTION CANCELED BY ORDER OF ASSIGNEE"

[Peter Santangeli]

Not surprising. As I went through the lots for a final time last night the thing that occurred to me over and over was 'Someone just needs to buy all of this and set up an Ebay store'

Either that, or a competitor or dealer bought everything. The fact that it include IP in the sale leads me to believe a competitor.

pete

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[Craig H]

The bidding was active that’s for sure. I had bids on several things and they all got outbid multiple times. Mostly the 90mm solar scopes, 8” and 10” SCT’s is what I was trying to get. 

Warm Regards,

Craig H

On Jan 9, 2025, at 10:19, Peter Santangeli <pe...@santangeli.net> wrote:



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[Doug Loyer]

That makes sense.  They probably negotiated down to the wire and delayed the auction when things looked close but kept it open as a threat until the deal closed.

The auctions were open yesterday, and there were already good bids for the most interesting equipment.  No exceptionally good deals were available, so just as well.

Best

-Doug

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[Peter Santangeli]

Agreed. I was waiting to bid on the high end sct OTA's, but they had for the most part reached or exceeded cloudy nights prices, particularly if you included the %28 uplift.

What was still interesting were some of the bulk lots of small SCT's, binoculars and beginner scopes. Someone with patience and a warehouse could do quite well on them.

pete

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[Craig H]

I stopped bidding as the “exceptional” was bid out of the items. For example the bid for an 8” SCT got to be $700- or more it wasn’t worth it. If I really wanted an 8” SCT I could easily pick up a used C8 for less than that and save my myself a 3-4 hour round trip drive. 

Warm Regards,

Craig H

On Jan 9, 2025, at 10:23, Doug Loyer <gremlin...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Aris Pope]

Aris

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[Aris Pope]

Just saw Kai posted this in the SFAA group chat. I guess they accepted an offer and got bought out.  

 I wonder if they used this bait and switch tactic to show that there was interest and then they sold to wholesalers like Agena and High Point

[Ralph Waid]

I logged in and verified that they closed the auction. Everything is closed. Wondering what is going on?

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[John Pierce]

On Thu, Jan 9, 2025 at 10:43 AM Ralph Waid <ralp...@gmail.com> wrote:

I logged in and verified that they closed the auction. Everything is closed. Wondering what is going on?

what is says...

... the Assignee has accepted and closed a funded offer for the bulk purchase all inventory lots and certain intellectual property from a bidder with whom the Assignee has been negotiating since prior to the pre-bid deadline.  

[Alex]

Capitalism. Now a would be $128 PST will become a $1200 PST and will continue sitting on HPS shelves until the stack completely oxidizes... :)

[Paul Reid]

Runaway, rapacious, unchecked capitalism! There, I fixed it for you Alex!

Paul

On Jan 9, 2025, at 11:08 AM, Alex <alex.k...@gmail.com> wrote:

Capitalism. Now a would be $128 PST will become a $1200 PST and will continue sitting on HPS shelves until the stack completely oxidizes... :)

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[John Pierce]

On Thu, Jan 9, 2025, 11:08 AM Alex <alex.k...@gmail.com> wrote:

Capitalism. Now a would be $128 PST will become a $1200 PST and will continue sitting on HPS shelves until the stack completely oxidizes... :)

When was a PST $128 ?

[Aris Pope]

I agree with Alex 

Aris

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[Alex]

John. The lot of 15 PSTs was at $1500 starting bid :) (+28% in fees)

[Aris Pope]

I meant the fact that they will probably end up oxidizing on a shelf somewhere. 

Aris

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[Mark Wagner]

"... the Assignee has accepted and closed a funded offer for the bulk purchase all inventory lots and certain intellectual property from a bidder with whom the Assignee has been negotiating since prior to the pre-bid deadline. "

Perhaps "Orion" will revive under new ownership and a different name, seeded with the inventory (I didn't look at the list, so I don't really know) and intellectual property.

[Nikola Nikolov]

PST from High Point is $1649

https://www.highpointscientific.com/coronado-pst-0-5-angstrom-double-stacked-personal-solar-telescope-05pst

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[Nikola Nikolov]

I am very skeptical if anyone will acquire Orion. The telescope market is very niche and with the coming wave of fully integrated telescopes like SeeStar and Vaonis, Orion has a Zero chance of survival. 
Orion was a good company, but it belonged to a different era. 

A completely new type of company is needed to replace the old Orion and compete on the market. 

[Jay Freeman]

I wonder if Orion's problem might not have been that it tried to maintain walk-in stores for too long: They are expensive, especially on the central California coast, and can only cater to a local market. Agena and Astronomics both have at least as broad an inventory selection as Orion ever did, and they appear to be doing well. At least, I hope they are.

Yet there are some advantages to being able to look first-hand at stuff you are considering buying. Trying out a telescope isn't quite as personal as seeing whether a pair of shoes fits or strumming a guitar, but I have rejected more than one binocular because it rattled when I shook it, and more than one mounting because the tripod wiggled like a Martian war machine twirling a hula hoop.

-- Jay Reynolds Freeman, Deep-Sky H. G. Wells fan -- or would that be Ed Wood scripting the hula hoop?
---------------------
Jay_Reynol...@mac.com
http://JayReynoldsFreeman.com (personal web site)

[Craig H]

Martian War Machine - Nice one. 

Warm Regards,

Craig H

On Jan 9, 2025, at 17:29, 'Jay Freeman' via The Astronomy Connection (TAC) <sf-ba...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

I wonder if Orion's problem might not have been that it tried to maintain walk-in stores for too long: They are expensive, especially on the central California coast, and can only cater to a local market. Agena and Astronomics both have at least as broad an inventory selection as Orion ever did, and they appear to be doing well. At least, I hope they are.

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[Alex]

What "completely new type of a _reseller_ company" could be invented? It's a 5000 years-old rip-off scheme. :)

[Nikola Nikolov]

Well, let's compare ZWO Asiair vs what Orion had as controllers. How long it takes to set up a telescope Asiair? 10 minutes. How long it was taking to setup an Orion rig? A lot more, plus the alignment was very inaccurate. I woould need to install a whole suit of drivers and software packages, just to make the rig working.

Today modern telescope rigs have fully integrated controllers, including Plate Solving. You just click a button, and your object is centered in the view in 20 seconds. That's it. That is what customers want today.

I still have my Sirius mount. It still works, but it is a piece of technology that doesn't belong to the new era of smart telescopes.

On Thu, Jan 9, 2025, 5:59 PM Alex <alex.k...@gmail.com> wrote:

What "completely new type of a _reseller_ company" could be invented? It's a 5000 years-old rip-off scheme. :)

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[John Pierce]

Orion closed its retail store in Watsonville a half dozen or more years ago... and the Cupertino store was independently managed and operated, and closed some time ago.

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[John Pierce]

I heard a rumor it was Synta that bought the auction goods.

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[Mark Wagner]

Orion sold internationally via Amazon.  Local sales were an anachronism.  So, during COVID their brick and mortar (Cupertino) closed and Watsonville was essentially a small showroom.  Orion's problem wasn't poor telescope sales, it was the acquisition of Meade.

Someone, and certainly not a bunch of amateurs, have purchased what remained.  Maybe even people from the previous Orion.

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[Ted Hauter]

Probably just as well everyone caught up in the auction would miss comet Atlas next week working out the as-is equipment 😂

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[John Pierce]

On Thu, Jan 9, 2025 at 6:31 PM Mark Wagner <itsmar...@gmail.com> wrote:

Orion sold internationally via Amazon.  Local sales were an anachronism.  So, during COVID their brick and mortar (Cupertino) closed and Watsonville was essentially a small showroom.  Orion's problem wasn't poor telescope sales, it was the acquisition of Meade.

 

they also did extensive direct sales from their own website.   Meade was the boobie prize for winning a price fixing lawsuit against their own suppliers... Sunny Ningpo(?) had bought Meade as a way of keeping up with Synta buying Celestron

[Mark Wagner]

Nikola,

I remember years ago at Fremont Peak a guy with a new LX200 who bragged about "burning up the sky" with his "super fast" goto.

I bet he got bored and was out of the hobby in a couple years.

Way back, we used to say "speed kills".

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[Nikola Nikolov]

I am not sure here. LX200 is heavy duty system, not suitable for beginners.

I help SJAA loaner program and usually when beginners ask me where to start from, my first recommendation is either a small manual Dob for up to $300 or ZWO SeeStar.

SJAA loaner program will offer SeeStar to beginners starting this January.

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[Peter Santangeli]

FWIW, Seestar has become my default recommendation for anyone interested.

It's the full promise of the '400 power Tasco telescope!' actually come true.

Multiple family members are planning on getting one after seeing it.

pete

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[Nikola Nikolov]

Yes, SeeStar basically took over Orion's market for beginners telescopes.

 If an beginner in astronomy wants something quick and easy, look no further than SeeStar. 

Small, you can move it everywhere, and doesn't cost a fortune. Even if someone does astronomy occasionally, SeeStar updates it's firmware as soon as it gets access to Internet. 

It is the best travel telescope ever made with small footprint. 

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[Dan Durkin]

I would never recommend a.SeeStar. It's a dead end for beginners. If someone is going this route, they'd be better off getting Sky Safari on their iPad.

[Mark Wagner]

On Fri, Jan 10, 2025, 10:36 AM Nikola Nikolov <nikol...@gmail.com> wrote:

(SeeStar)

It is the best travel telescope ever made with small footprint. 

Amazing!

[Ted Hauter]

Which Seestar the S30 or S50 recommendation?

This is good to get people outside bundled up I suppose and see where the camera points and then remember right where it was AND on the sky safari. Maybe think of Seestar as a trainer or sim 🤔 😅

Mark : speed kills: words spoken from a very experienced observer thanks for sharing that.

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[Alex]

C'mon! SeeStar is NOT a telescope!!! It's just a sky tracking telecamera. Please don't confuse a telescope + CCD/CMOS with it. No EP? No "telescope". :)

But I do also recommend SeeStar to anyone who is pondering the idea of trying some Astro imaging. Great simple camera! And a clear shame to all other EV "scope" makers to date.

[rgro...@mac.com]

So, not to start a whole argument on this, but essentially the SeeStar is a set of lenses to focus light to a sensor. In that sense, it is not that much different from a telescope with a ccd camera attached that you cannot remove. It also has filters for light pollution and taking dark frames. So I sort of see it as a very specific use telescope.

 

Not that I would replace my Obsession with it. But it sure is easier to pull out and use.

 

-Ron

 

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[Peter Santangeli]

Maybe a big statement, but for most people these days, most specifically kids, and especially those in light polluted areas, they will get WAY more satisfaction out of a Seestar than almost any beginner telescope that's ever been produced.

Yes, it's not photons hitting your eyes, but it insanely simple, easy to use, and effective. And the youth of today are more than happy to see things on their phones.

Thus my point that it is finally the REAL promise of the 'Tasco 400x telescope' come true.

They will see recognizable things in the sky within minutes. Something that would take hours, days or weeks for most kids in the old days. 

pete

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[matthew marcus]

That description, except with the replacement of 'lenses' with
'mirrors', applies to all professional scopes, all of which are referred
to as telescopes. I don't even see it as being for a very specific use.
It's a small scope that you use photographically.
I have an eVScope, which is similar except that it's a 4" reflector.
Once I get the solar filter for it, I'll be able to observe anything
with it that I could with my C8.
mam

On 1/10/2025 6:26 PM, 'rgro...@mac.com' via The Astronomy Connection

(TAC) wrote:
> So, not to start a whole argument on this, but essentially the SeeStar
> is a set of lenses to focus light to a sensor. In that sense, it is not
> that much different from a telescope with a ccd camera attached that you
> cannot remove. It also has filters for light pollution and taking dark
> frames. So I sort of see it as a very specific use telescope.
>

> Not that I would /replace/ my Obsession with it. But it sure is easier

> to pull out and use.
>
> -Ron
>

> *From: *sf-ba...@googlegroups.com <sf-ba...@googlegroups.com> on
> behalf of Alex <alex.k...@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Friday, January 10, 2025 at 5:10 PM
> *To: *sf-ba...@googlegroups.com <sf-ba...@googlegroups.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [TAC] Orion Auction Spreadsheet - LET'S JOIN FORCES!

>
> C'mon! SeeStar is NOT a telescope!!! It's just a sky tracking
> telecamera. Please don't confuse a telescope + CCD/CMOS with it. No EP?
> No "telescope". :)
>
> But I do also recommend SeeStar to anyone who is pondering the idea of
> trying some Astro imaging. Great simple camera! And a clear shame to all
> other EV "scope" makers to date.
>
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[marek.c...@gmail.com]

I'm with Pete. I think Pete's take on this is clear-eyed and realistic.

If we imagine getting a first scope for a kid, or really any person who's not already a hard-core amateur astronomer, something like a Seestar is probably the ideal gateway into the hobby at the present time. Although the Seestar isn't perfect in all ways, it checks off so many boxes on the "why didn't somebody just integrate all these features?" list, that it's a great way into astronomy, IMO. Now that I've been doing EAA for a while, it just seems so logical to try and leverage the power of the silicon eye, and the power of plate-solve-and-sync, and of time-integration of the image.

For me personally (and YMMV, of course), old-school visual observing is a pleasant trip down memory lane, so as to dwell for a while in an old-school era I was once immersed in. It's pleasurable. Brings back a lot of fond memories from before the era of EAA and plate-solve-and-sync. But if I hadn't paid those visual dues in the first place, I think I might not want to pay them now. If I spent as much time staring at a phone screen as today's young generations do, I can see how an EAA-type view on a phone would amount to "seeing" an object. And I can also see how the "next, advanced" step would be to do non-Seestar EAA and/or guided astrophotography. I can see how that would seem like the main quest line in a video game, with visual observing being a side quest.

[Nikola Nikolov]

SeeStar S50 is a triplet refractor and the imaging sensor Sony IMX462 is a CMOS. 

Btw, if you were a professional astronomer, you will barely see your telescope. Most likely you will never even visit the observatory.  Everything in modern astronomy is granted access to telescope time, which you will access only remotely to collect data. 

Most modern telescopes operate absolutely autonomously, without someone being physically present in the observatory. 

Also lens + camera is commonly used in professional astronomy as well. 

On Fri, Jan 10, 2025, 5:09 PM Alex <alex.k...@gmail.com> wrote:

C'mon! SeeStar is NOT a telescope!!! It's just a sky tracking telecamera. Please don't confuse a telescope + CCD/CMOS with it. No EP? No "telescope". :)

But I do also recommend SeeStar to anyone who is pondering the idea of trying some Astro imaging. Great simple camera! And a clear shame to all other EV "scope" makers to date.

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[Alex]

We are not professional astronomers here (regardless some of us have professional astronomy work, done with professional instruments, published in professional journals). It's like saying all bicyclists must be eager to ride professional driver's electrical six-axlers.

I have a little joy looking at mediocre SeeStar images which I can find in a way better quality online any moment (e.g. from JWST). But I appreciate and enjoy the technology behind them gradually revealing familiar objects on the screen, as I had all of the experiences that led to these developments (from visual astronomy, film imaging, signal-processing, microcontrollers, data fusing algorithms, robotics, etc) now neatly forged into a slick packaging by China engineers (whose fathers were manually forging steel in clay furnaces on backyards just a few decades back). I enjoy the modern marvel here, not these images per se. Plus the utility of quick and nearly effortless documenting of celestial events. Point and click camera style.

While a quality visual telescope provides a completely different joy, which is the direct contact with the live Universe. I.o.w.: I prefer playing with the real cat, even though I do like images of cats.

[Aris Pope]

Maybe we should start a SeeStar email thread..

Aris

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[Mark Wagner]

So, this is a discussion of the superior technical aspects of an imaging system.  Right?

Just want to be sure.

[Peter Santangeli]

LOL. That seems to be what it has drifted into.

It started (guilty!) as a question about whether a Seestar is a good introductory telescope for someone who knows nothing about Astronomy (a replacement for the usually-shitty Tasco 400 power beginner experience). I think THAT is a TAC worthy topic. Imaging tech? No.

Maybe 'nuff said. The different positions have been well established, and neither side is libel to change.

pete

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[Mark Wagner]

I sincerely hope nothing libelous occurs here ;-)

[Alex]

This is not about the venerable SeeStar at all :)

It's about the desire to have  "New era telescope companies" (not like that retrograde Orion), which will be making only various breeds of SeeStar-like (point and shoot) robotic telescopes for amateur astronomers' better good (i.e.: starhopping must die as an atavism).

[Vishal Kasliwal]

I don't get the point of the Seestar - it shows you a worse view than you'd get in a book. Why not just buy a Hubble or Webb coffee table book? Atleast those are in color.... 

Vishal

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[Mark Wagner]

Exactly Vishal.  If the goal of amateur astronomy is to see as many objects as possible as quickly as possible, the Hubble site or Wikisky or Stsci searches are the most proficient.

There's more to this than pushing a button.

There's a philosophy of astronomy for many amateurs.  Terrestrially, it's called "the journey".

I never understood getting tech between my eye and the real thing.

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[Vishal Kasliwal]

As someone who's been a professional astronomer and has actually worked on the science pipeline for LSST, I can assure you that the majority of professional astronomers don't care about the experience of looking through their instruments - seeing these objects, be it by eye or on a screen, just isn't why they're in the game. They are in the game because they seek understanding - understanding of phenomenon that defies the imagination. That's why a decent number of them never use anything other than whiteboards, markers, pencils, erasers, and paper for their work. Seeing the basic laws of physics come together mathematically to predict the behavior of distant objects that they can't even begin to hope to ever visit, the power of command that comes with total understanding of why things are the way they are and how they behave - that's their drug. They couldn't be the least bit concerned about how the data is gathered, and if a soulless set of CCDs at the end of a large, remote telescope is the best way to get the job done, then so be it!

We aren't looking for the same fix - our fix comes from the wonderment of seeing these distant objects firsthand, and so, I argue that contraptions such as the SeeStar just aren't capable of giving us the same pleasure as a more traditional telescope,

I have a good friend who's an expert on silicon photonics, The first time I took him out stargazing, he was blown away by the simplicity and immediacy of the experience of seeing an object millions of light-years away by just pointing a wood-and-metal cset of truss polers and boxes, calibrated with a simple laser. 

Give a child two convex lenses, have him hold them up at the right distances using his fingers, and look at the moon through the resulting 'telescope' - you'll have birthed a scientist. Give the same child a 'SeeStar' and I wonder how many times it'll end up catching dust in the closet within two weeks....  

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[Richard Navarrete]

Fun thread ( with a new header )

I was thinking it might be fun to add a seestar to a visual kit. Set the seestar to image an object , then go to your scope and find the object. It would be fun to compare, plus it might aid in identifying a field if the object you’re observing is very faint.

Just a thought. The Seestar is cheaper than a high quality eyepiece.

Richard

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[Vishal Kasliwal]

Interesting idea but how is this different as compared to using SkySafari on a tablet? I think it has high quality images. In principle, a more advanced SkySafari could easily simulate the current weather and seeing including transparency. Would that be equivalent to having the SeeStar there? 

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[Peter Santangeli]

For the equivalent price of that Tasco 400x telescope 20-30 years ago (inflation adjusted) you could probably build a Seestar equivalent with a piggy back mounted 80mm refractor for a visual look...

BUT... Increasingly nobody would see anything through it. Too much creeping light pollution. The reality is I think that from most urban environments these days kids would give up. I think that's a huge problem with our hobby. And I think kids see reality increasingly through their phones. 

I love using my dob. I've been a visual observer for almost 50 years. And an imager for about 45. But you can see WAY more with a Seestar than any small telescope in urban conditions. Yes, it's technically imaging, but it really doesn't 'feel' that way. It's more just electronically enhanced viewing.

Sadly, I've been watching the hobby shrink for all those years. Sure we can blame the Orion failure on competition or Covid. But a huge part has to be that the hobby has been failing. Even with the new excitement around SpaceX, etc. It's failing because unless you live in rural country it just doesn't compete with playing video games unless you are hugely patient (is gen Z patient? LOL), live away from everything, or can get in a car and drive to dark sites. That leaves out the vast majority of kids.

The hobby has to adapt. I'm not going to say 'or it will die'... because it has been dying for years.

pete

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[mtoma...@comcast.net]

Peter wrote, "But a huge part has to be that the hobby has been failing. ...It's failing because unless you live in rural country it just doesn't compete with playing video games."

I have recently experienced a glimmer of hope.  At my club's last meeting, I lamented out loud how I wish that I could attract new members to our club who are younger than sixty.  (It was a half-joke.)  Afterward, another club member suggested that we reach out to local high school science teachers and ask them to invite their students to our next public stargazing event.

So...

Last week, I sent an email invitation to 100 science teachers at 29 local high schools.  (Most of the email addresses were found on those schools' websites.) After three days, the results are:

91 of those 100 emails got through.  (We got 9 bounces.)
22 teachers acknowledged my email via a response.
13 high schools were represented by those 22 respondents.
2 new contact email addresses were provided.

Every one of the 22 responses was very positive.  All committed to posting our event flyer at their school and with sharing it with other teachers.  Many said that their students expressed a strong interest in attending our event.

Here's our flyer, catering to teenagers (notice the QR code!):

https://nightsky.jpl.nasa.gov/documents/1942/2025.01.25%20event%20student%20flyer%20R4.pdf

I think that we are going to have a record-breaking crowd at our January 25th event.  Mostly teenagers.  :-)

My point to all of this is that local astronomy clubs ought to try to reach out to local teenagers, via middle and high school staffs.  Not all teenagers are just into video games.  :-)

Incidentally, Peter also wrote, "I've been... an imager of about 45."

Yeah, yeah, yeah.  But I bet you did not spend cold winter nights in the northeast staring at a guide star in an off-axis eye-piece with an illuminated reticle, while pushing two speed-buttons (fast and slow) on a guide gizmo from Edmund Scientific (wearing mittens), capturing photons on Kodak spectroscopic 103a-F B&W negative film inside your Dad's Nikon SLR attached to an orange-tube, fork-mounted Celestron 8" SCT.  (All of this was even before hyper'd film of the 1980s.)

Mark T.

[Peter Santangeli]

LOL... Yes... I did. I grew up in Montreal and Toronto, doing EXACTLY that with more primitive equipment (a home made 6 inch newt on a Meade 626 GEM).

pete

[matthew marcus]

That's sort of what I sometimes do with my eVScope. I'll set it to
accumulate an exposure while observing other objects with my C8.
mam

On 1/13/2025 5:51 PM, 'Richard Navarrete' via The Astronomy Connection

(TAC) wrote:
> Fun thread ( with a new header )
>
> I was thinking it might be fun to add a seestar to a visual kit. Set the
> seestar to image an object , then go to your scope and find the object.
> It would be fun to compare, plus it might aid in identifying a field if
> the object you’re observing is very faint.
>
> Just a thought. The Seestar is cheaper than a high quality eyepiece.
>
> Richard
>
>

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[Mark McCarthy]

Pete and Matt arguing reminded me of this, who had it harder in the hobby:

Mark

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 13, 2025, at 8:10 PM, matthew marcus <mama...@lbl.gov> wrote:

That's sort of what I sometimes do with my eVScope.  I'll set it to accumulate an exposure while observing other objects with my C8.

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[Alex]

SeeStar is definitely has its place in the amateur's arsenal. Aside from easy documenting of things you see in the sky at moderate magnification, it can be used even as a pointing aid for your main aperture (Dob) leveraging a piggy-backed GLP (or a blue one) for tracking the beam in the main aperture all the way to your target. Haven't outfitted mine with one yet (still thinking how to power it with the beam on/off remote control from the phone), but the simple 3D printed peep-sight worked just great for the recent comet ID-ing in the hazy morning sky with Binos.

For the views comparison: from my observations, SeeStar is approaching the live view fidelity in my 12.5" Portaball in good (but not best) atmospheric conditions in just 3 minutes of 10 sec subs stacking (for nebulae and galaxies).

Compared with Star Chart Apps, SeeStar option surely way better as it does not have the database magnitude limits, would naturally account for faint stars colors, smooth brightness gradient, proper motion, variability, and also would show the actual shape of a DSO - all without the Internet connection. But such an app would be helpful for pinpointing the DSO location for SeeStar. As its own star chart has a very limited DSO database and no direct coordinates input. So you would need to orient by its grid, brighter stars, and brighter DSOs nearby to locate needed sky regions for taking a shot (BTW, SkySafari app accidentally supports the SeeStar controlling to a good extent; you can search on CN for the connectivity guide if you have it).

[Mitchell Koerner]

I described a seestar to my wife and asked how she felt about it - she said it "sounds like a fun toy" and she wouldn't be as afraid to mess around with it as with a large traditional telescope.

That sure sounds like a win to me! It's a way to have fun doing astronomy / astrophotography / whatever you want to call it without nearly as much hassle as even the simplest non-smart-telescope setups. Not everyone wants to put in the time and effort of a visual or traditional AP setup, but they still might enjoy exploring the night sky.

There's something much more real about exploring live on a seestar than there is to captured old images in sky Safari or some theoretical alternative.

That's all what I've built it up to be in my mind anyway. Right now I'm exploring night vision astronomy and don't feel like dropping the $$$ on a seestar or other smart scope to test this.

I've also met a couple of club members who are getting older, don't want to set up the big scope anymore, but still want to come out to a gathering and explore the sky. Smart telescope for the win there!

tl-dr I think it's for anyone that wants to enjoy the night sky, but for whatever reason wants to do it extremely low hassle - at least not for now.

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[Akarsh Simha]

Vishal I loved your email and thoughts on this.

As a hobbyist, I’m not here to create something unique, something I can sell, or something that delivers a new value to humankind. Let’s face it: it’s unlikely, although not impossible, today that amateurs discover something novel. Maybe another comet, maybe another planetary nebula, maybe another Mira type variable, maybe another nova or supernova. Even our observations and images pale in comparison with what is possible even with non-state-of-art ground based telescopes.

 

I’m here, therefore, to engage in something for the pure joy of the experience of the universe in my own small way. I see imagers finding that joy in putting together their imaging train, defining how it will capture images, processing the imagery to create something. That’s why even though their images will never match HST, there is joy in the effort invested and the creativity of the process. I see the same with visual observing — one look at the DES Legacy Suvey and you see all sorts of details that you simply can’t see with your eyes even with meter-class telescopes, yet there is profound joy in spending an hour at the eyepiece to finally detect some faint feature with my own senses. It looks like in our hobbies, the joy is in the work invested in producing or experiencing something, not in the end product.

This is why I’ve never fully understood robotic amateur telescopes - they remove a lot of the work. So what remains? Perhaps there is just enough work still remaining to keep someone entertained for a few months. With a larger scope like the Celestron Origin, at least one can pick out some interesting targets beyond the standard fare of M42, M31, M33, M45 (which probably constitute 90% of images). I know a professional astronomer who retired and got an origin, and is enjoying photographing esoteric galaxies he studied in his career. The more interesting use of robotic amateur telescopes is what I see someone like Richard Berry doing with them, which is using them to do some science. As for the SeeStar 50, I simply cannot see value in it yet, other than as a camera for special occasions — maybe you could create memories of C/2024 G3 ATLAS or of the 2024 solar maximum with one.

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[Vishal Kasliwal]

I don't think the problem lies with the kids and their lack of desire to deal with light pollution. The true problem, IMO, lies with the source material in our field - it has all too often neglected to, or already had grossly understated the derogatory effects of light pollution! 

I spent about a decade using a 5" Newtonian from the murky skies of Mumbai. I can remember the evenings and nights spent in vain looking for the Owl (M97). After all, it's a Messier object and a planetary nebula just like the Ring - which I had seen a couple of times. Why couldn't i see it? 

This was followed by another decade-and-a-half on the East Coast, the last few of which saw me running an outreach 12" to try to bring astronomy to the city of Philadelphia. We even called the program 'The Sky in the City'! Oh! What irony! There is no sky in the city! 

No amateur guidebook in our field, especially the older, more classical works, has attempted to deal with the topic of light pollution in a technical and serious manner. Almost all throw in a pithy sentence or two about how light pollution should be avoided. But how is that to be accomplished? If you're in an otherwise dark location - say a large greenspace bereft of lighting, but within city limits - is that 'avoiding light pollution'? Of course, one needs to appreciate the difference between ambient light pollution and sky-glow. Going to a dark park in a city reduces ambient light pollution, allowing one to dark-adapt to a degree. However, it does nothing to reduce sky-glow, which is the other huge limiting factor when attempting to view the deep sky.

Partly, the problem is, how do you quantify and measure sky-glow light pollution? In that respect, the Unihendron Sky Quality Meter has performed yeoman service for our hobby by allowing us to quantitatively measure an important aspect of our site conditions. Convinced with light pollution maps that allow us to pre-evaluate potential viewing sites, the availability of the SQM has resulted in the accumulation of deep tribal knowledge of light pollution within our community. What is still sorely lacking is a detailed discussion of light pollution in our literature. I've yet to see amateur astronomy books that 

I. stress on the importance of viewing around the new moon.

II. discuss the process of planning and comparing sites based upon criteria such as expected light pollution level as estimated from light pollution maps, altitude, accessibility, etc... - basically the criteria pioneered by Mark W. & Co. on the CDSE site spreadsheet. 

III. discuss the impact of seasonal trends on sky-glow light pollution, i. e. the impact of solar activity on airglow etc....

IV. recommend that serious deep-sky observers invest in an SQM - I view this as being as important a piece of kit as a star chart. 

V. discuss the drift in SQMs as they age, essentially a calibration issue that Cam be mitigated via mantainence. 

VI. stress on the importance of building communal knowledge of good sites within some geographic area, essentially what we do here & on CDSE. 

I think that if these issues were to be addressed, we'd have fewer cases of youngsters in cities with Dobs getting frustrated and abandoning the hobby and we wouldn't need SeeStars to keep them interested. All that we need to do is to set expectations correctly. What we do now is equivalent to getting them excited about skiing and then taking them to a dinky little VA mountain without telling then that the best snow is in UT!! 

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[Mark Wagner]

On 1/14/2025 00:36, Akarsh Simha wrote:

This is why I’ve never fully understood robotic amateur telescopes - they remove a lot of the work. So what remains?

Precisely.  I see such "tools" as a way for most noobs to find a quick exit from the hobby.  What will they see from the city using an imaging facsimile?  The Ring?  A dozen targets, a dozen yawns?  One must invest themself to reap a reward.

I know "star hopping" has been called an anachronism during this thread.  For some, I guess.  But to me, it is pure joy, and even the opposite, pure frustration - what would the joy be without the frustration, to help contrast the joy?.

When I walk away from my star chart (paper or computer), and look up, I am immediately engaged in pattern matching (mental exercise).  My recognition of the actual sky, the thing that provides so much joy, is being reinforced,  When I move my telescope by hand, and point, I test that recognition and my skills.  I am engaged.  All the thoughts, pressures, todo lists, etc., fade from my consciousness, and it is me and the sky, and maybe of friends experiencing the same a few feet away.  As I star hop in the finder, matching patterns to point the way to my current goal, the immediacy of they endeavor keeps me "in the moment" - pushing everything else out of my mind, out of the way.  It becomes an engrossing meditative experience (for hours).  When my eye catches a glimmer, a few photons, the dopamine hits: more joy!  If I've landed on the target, another set of engrossing actions begin, keeping me engaged in the moment.  It can be thrilling and enthralling.  If its not the target, well ok, more work isn't a bad thing, I'll get there.  And if not well, I don't expect success in every attempt so, so what?  What's the rush?  I've get a different, more fulfilling kind of "rush" from engagement in the activity.  In that sense, I always get a win, a night of exclusive (the "world" goes away) engagement.

I believe that as we age such experiences deep engagement become increasingly fulfilling and valuable - physically/mentally/neurologically.  I've lasted 30 years at this now, and still love it.

I'll put it this way, about robotic finders to "get there" fast (and removed):  I don't want an electric sheep.  I want to fill the experience enjoying the real thing.

Maybe I just negated the desire of even making myself a set of manual setting circles....

[Jeff Crilly]

>
> On Jan 14, 2025, at 2:26 AM, Alex <alex.k...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> it can be used even as a pointing aid for your main aperture (Dob) leveraging a piggy-backed GLP (or a blue one) for tracking the beam in the main aperture all the way to your target.

Alex — I suggest not doing the above.

Instead, for a DOB, just get a PiFinder. As a user of both the PiFinder and a Seestar, and a dob user, I can confirm the PiFinder will be a lot “cleaner” to use as a “finder” than a seestar combined with a GLP. (PiFinder is also safer given the potential for aircraft in the line of sight.)

-jeff

[Vishal Kasliwal]

Hear hear!!!

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[Alex]

Thank you for the warning and suggestion, Jeff.
Myself, I don't need anything but Telrad + my app for almost 15 years already. But I know and have tried dozens of options for pointing a telescope and trying to help others who don't know every constellation star yet.

The mounted laser pointer in particular works great for outreach, as the beam can be used by multiple observers for pointing at the same DSO. The mentioned PiFinder solution can't help with that. E.g. I'm periodically observing from a friend's ranch in Yosemite, their kids love to follow the beam with me with their 4" newt and binos (GLP on a fixed mount is enough for that). For individual observers I have also mentioned the blue beam pointer option. It's practically undetectable from outside of the very narrow observing "corridor", while the chance to randomly hit an aircraft when pointing with either one is less than one of spotting an UFO (unless you are observing over a busy airport of course). :) There is also a red beam option, but it works only with very good darkness adaptation, and it's better suitable for an RDF replacement (even more narrow "corridor" of visibility).
In addition, I have mentioned the power trigger control, which would allow turning on the GLP only momentarily when following the beam, that would also reduce all associated risks, and would satisfy even imagers concerns.

Getting back on the topic. Another great utility for SeeStar is the aforementioned SQM meter replacement. I could see it used for monitoring the DSO target region conditions in real time with just its preview screen or making a definite number of subs and comparing with prior sessions. Or, if desired feeding the image to a separate app maintaining the similar to SQM "sky quality" score for you. I personally don't believe in classical photodiode based SQM-meter readings much, too rough an estimation. :)