Finding a group place to observe?

[Mark Wagner]

Taken from Lance P's current thread on Dinosaur Point and other possibilities.

I know we've had discussions about buying property, the pros and cons. This is not about buying.

Long ago I was involved in starting GSSP (its predecessors) and CalStar.  It always takes group participation which we had - and we ended up with Richard Ozer and his team, Jamie and his, keeping things rolling along smoothly for now decades. Perhaps we can try getting something started, again.

Instead of buying, an easier in could be "renting".  There been a "buying" sub-group silently around here for ages (still exist?).

Without getting into a how to discussion, I'd like to start just asking if we had access to a desirable location within say, 1-1/2 to 2 hours of the south bay, how many people would be interested.  If you are a yes, how much per month would you be willing to pay?  How many willing to commit (put $$ in) given intelligent and attractive circumstances?

People already pay at Pinnacles, LSA, etc. for entry/camping, and find rules we must comply with, some that are restrictive/difficult.  So, I'm imagining a private property, lock/gated, light control, with amenities.  Bortle 3a (SQM 21.5-21.69) would be decent and could be relatively convenient. 

There's a lot more behind this post - I've been thinking about this for a few months.  What triggered this post is Brad's recent posts about searching, and the news of SCAC losing access to Bonny Doon airport.

There may be all sorts of ways to do it.  Rob Hawley (FPOA) worked on this sort of thing many moons back and I thought he was going to succeed.  Its not a new idea, and exploring creative approaches.

I'd be looking for a small "can do" group of regulars to work on this with, if there is enough interest.  It could be fun creating, and of value to us all.

[Vishal Kasliwal]

I'd be interested in a group rental site if it's 21.5 mpas or better. I'm willing to pay up to $125 per month if it's a great site, i.e. a site to replace all others (except NV). 

Vishal

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[Mark Wagner]

To modify the question about how much would people put in, let me ask for those with $50 and $30 a month (or more) replies.  That's the range I was targeting.

Vishal, I would be in your range to try making this happen.  Obviously the higher the amounts the easier it is to see a way to do it.  I was considering a group anywhere from 12 to 48 people in my calculations.

[Brad Templeton]

My presumption would be the goal would be to just find a landowner who will tolerate some unobtrusive astronomers making occasional use of their land for a reasonable fee.     We don't want to be exclusive users of the land, and unless you want to have multi-day star parties, we can promise minimal use during the daylight, no loud music or parties, and only a modest number of days per year, never during bad weather or full moons.   Particularly for unoccupied land, 2nd home land, land held for speculation.       We could get by with no modifications, but it would be nice if there's a place to put piers, or there's a toilet or water.        If it's 2 hours drive though, it does need to allow camping, even if just overnight.

[Mark Wagner]

It would allow camping

Lots of good thoughts and questions, but first I'd just like to see if sufficient participation is there and how much $$ people are willing to commit monthly.

If sufficient, then to the nitty gritty.

[Peter Santangeli]

I think insurance and liability will be the sticking points.

As for organizational structure, structure it like a non-profit/club. Have a web site with a board (or discord channel like the cool kids do now?).  settle on either a monthly or yearly membership.  

You need a policy on guests.

Trash will be a big issue. 

As will be any 'facilities'. With an aging hobby like ours, I don't think "hold it until you get home" works.

Basically, you are proposing an ongoing, smaller version of almost everything we face with GSSP. 

Don't get me wrong - it's an intriguing idea, and I would probably be 'in' for the right price ($100 a month?). But don't underestimate the challenges.

pete

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[Surya Rao]

I would go with anything around $100 if the place was ~2hrs of driving distance from San Jose, and was really dark (darker than Pinnacles West).

Surya.

On Mon, May 18, 2026 at 10:21 AM Mark Wagner <itsmar...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Vishal Kasliwal]

I think the amount that I'm willing to commit depends on the nature of the beast. If we're talking long-term rental with the possibility to build individual structures on the land and leave personal possessions there long-term, then it's be willing to pay a fair bit more. 

Vishal

[KG]

Hi Mark,

I was looking around Pinnacles to stay and found this place….. not cheap, but if the owner is willing to make a deal for astronomers (not the Air BnB) will be great, a tad darker than pinnacles east! 

On May 18, 2026, at 10:29 AM, Peter Santangeli <pe...@santangeli.net> wrote:



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[Brad Templeton]

I apologize.  Sadly, my price is not high.      I mean you can get an Oak Ridge membership for $100/year, and it's a half hour drive.     The problem of course is that the sky is brighter than locations that are 2 hours away; but they tend to need camping.  So many people use LSA, at $45/night, with washing water and toilets etc.     To match the $100/month people are suggesting, one would need to plan 26 nights/year at the remote site, which I probably wouldn't.

They report just maintaining Oak Ridge costs them $3500/year BTW, though it has 1.5 domes so it's not just bare land.

So I fear the logistics of this might require semi-donated land.    (Which could be possible with my mining claim hack, which is based on the fact that if you make a mining claim you are required to install 4 piers at the corners and nothing says they can't be concrete piers with mounting plates on top.  The harder requirement is you must actually try to mine, though not required to make money at it. )

[Mark Wagner]

I think everyone would be good with the place I have in mind.  Like I said, a great group (Steve G, me, Richard N, Marko Johnston, Mark McCarthy, etc.) thought a lot of the area for probably a decade.

Can we just deal with one thing at a time?   With the existing parameters, are you in or not?  If you are in, for how much $$/month?  "Keep it simple..."

If we have enough participation, it will make sense to get into fuller details.

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-- 
Mark

[Matthew Marcus]

I live in Berkeley. Anything S of Coe is outside my range.

Sincerely,
Matthew Marcus

On 5/18/2026 11:01 AM, Mark Wagner wrote:
>
> I think everyone would be good with the place I have in mind.  Like I said, a great group (Steve G, me, Richard N, Marko Johnston, Mark McCarthy, etc.) thought a lot of the area for probably a decade.
>
> Can we just deal with one thing at a time?   With the existing parameters, are you in or not?  If you are in, for how much $$/month?  "Keep it simple..."
>
> If we have enough participation, it will make sense to get into fuller details.
>
>
> On 5/18/2026 10:31, Vishal Kasliwal wrote:
>> I think the amount that I'm willing to commit depends on the nature of the beast. If we're talking long-term rental with the possibility to build individual structures on the land and leave personal possessions there long-term, then it's be willing to pay a fair bit more.
>>
>>
>> Vishal
>>
>> On Mon, May 18, 2026, 10:21 Mark Wagner <itsmar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> It would allow camping
>>
>> Lots of good thoughts and questions, but first I'd just like to see if sufficient participation is there and how much $$ people are willing to commit monthly.
>>
>> If sufficient, then to the nitty gritty.
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 18, 2026 9:59:42 AM PDT, Brad Templeton <bra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> My presumption would be the goal would be to just find a landowner who will tolerate some unobtrusive astronomers making occasional use of their land for a reasonable fee.     We don't want to be exclusive users of the land, and unless you want to have multi-day star parties, we can promise minimal use during the daylight, no loud music or parties, and only a modest number of days per year, never during bad weather or full moons.  Particularly for unoccupied land, 2nd home land, land held for speculation.       We could get by with no modifications, but it would be nice if there's a place to put piers, or there's a toilet or water.        If it's 2 hours drive though, it does need to allow camping, even if just overnight.
>>
>> On Monday, May 18, 2026 at 7:50:36 AM UTC-7 Mark Wagner wrote:
>>
>>
>> Taken from Lance P's current thread on Dinosaur Point and other possibilities.
>>
>> I know we've had discussions about buying property, the pros and cons. This is not about buying.
>>
>> Long ago I was involved in starting GSSP (its predecessors) and CalStar.  It always takes group participation which we had - and we ended up with Richard Ozer and his team, Jamie and his, keeping things rolling along smoothly for now decades. Perhaps we can try getting something started, again.
>>

>> Instead of buying, an easier /in /could be "renting".  There been a "buying" sub-group silently around here for ages (still exist?).
>>
>> Without getting into a /how to/ discussion, I'd like to start just asking if we had access to a desirable location within say, 1-1/2 to 2 hours of the south bay, how many people would be interested.  If you are a yes, how much per month would you be willing to pay?  How many willing to commit (put $$ in) given intelligent and attractive circumstances?

>>
>> People already pay at Pinnacles, LSA, etc. for entry/camping, and find rules we must comply with, some that are restrictive/difficult.  So, I'm imagining a private property, lock/gated, light control, with amenities.  Bortle 3a (SQM 21.5-21.69) would be decent and could be relatively convenient.
>>
>> There's a lot more behind this post - I've been thinking about this for a few months.  What triggered this post is Brad's recent posts about searching, and the news of SCAC losing access to Bonny Doon airport.
>>
>> There may be all sorts of ways to do it.  Rob Hawley (FPOA) worked on this sort of thing many moons back and I thought he was going to succeed. Its not a new idea, and exploring creative approaches.
>>
>> I'd be looking for a small "can do" group of regulars to work on this with, if there is enough interest.  It could be fun creating, and of value to us all.
>>
>> --
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>
> --
> Mark

>
>
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[Mark Wagner]

So far I count five.  I think at 12 its beginning to be workable.

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-- 
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[Mark Wagner]

In fact, I think we're at not at 5, but 7 (some folks are currently in TX).

Imagine, going twice a new moon cycle if so desired or multiple consecutive days, camping by your set up equipment, amenities, all for $50/month.

Going once, going twice..... 🙂

Everything of concern that's been mentioned has already been thought thru.

[Akarsh Simha]

I’m not sold on the idea of paying a recurring cost for a specific site. Using public land and making spur of the moment decisions keeps me more agile with weather conditions.

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[Francesco Meschia]

I can confirm it’s a great place, I’ve stayed there several times. Great amenities, but I’m afraid it would be too expensive to reach a deal.

Mark – I would be up for it for something like $30-$40 a month.

Francesco

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[Mark Wagner]

And often alone.

But you sure get good results!

[mccart...@yahoo.com]

I'm in, ~$100/mo.  Alot depends on particulars (like elevation, nearby lights, etc....)

[Jamie Dillon, DDK]

Count me in as highly plausible.

[Mark Wagner]

That's great Jamie!  On your plausibility may rest the success or failure of this endeavor achieving liftoff!

But, no pressure. ;-)

[Steve Gottlieb]

I observed at this airbnb ranch for 3 nights in July 2023 with two other observers.  The site is close to the east entrance of the park at an elevation of 1430 ft.  The ranch is a very nice 2-bedroom, 1-bath house with futon-couches in the living room (pricey for a two-bedroom, though).  The weather was very warm/hot (low 90's) and clear for all 3 days.

Two lines of trees are in the area in front of the house near a patio area, along with a barbeque, tables and chairs. So the only possible area to set up is at the end of the driveway near the garage, on the south side of the house. You can set up a scope at the top of the driveway on loose gravel with fairly good horizons, though one tree is inconveniently placed near the edge of the driveway.  But I didn't feel comfortable trying to roll my 24" onto the loose gravel, so I set up on dirt close to the edge of the driveway.  That meant a tree restricted my view to the west and northwest.  There were security lights mounted on the house that we had to spend some time covering so they didn’t come on, which would have been disastrous.

The sky conditions were OK to fairly good, but the sky was relatively bright one night.  SQM readings ranged from 21.04 (not very dark) to 21.48.  Seeing was no better than average all three nights. Overall, it wasn’t as dark as the properties in the Willow Springs area (further northeast), when I observed there from 2006 to 2017, but my sample size is not very large.

Steve

On May 18, 2026, at 12:35 PM, KG <kgee...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Mark,

I was looking around Pinnacles to stay and found this place….. not cheap, but if the owner is willing to make a deal for astronomers (not the Air BnB) will be great, a tad darker than pinnacles east! 

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[Lance Pickens]

Absolutely would be interested. I’ve also wondered on this route, there’s quite a few vineyards that have paved parking area and plenty of sky

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[Joel Lee]

I'm interested but will depend on the final pricing. At 150$ per month I could send a rig remote and get 200+ nights of imaging (defeats the purpose of this hobby imo though). Closer to $30-50 a month would be desirable. 

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[Mark Wagner]

Hi everyone,

Going to wait a few days to give more people a chance to reply.  I enjoyed getting this one privately, I'd like to see more like it:

"Hi Mark,

I've been a lurking member of the TAC mailing list for years. Never posted a single message. I just saw this thread you started, but I was unable to post anything to the group for some reason. Anyway, I think it's a great idea, and I'd be willing to commit $50 per month."

[Raymond Wong]

I too would be interested, depending on location from Fremont;  $25.00 to $50.00 a month is manageable.  

Cheers, 73s, Clear Skies and Clear Blocks,

Ray

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[Vignesh Balaji]

I would be interested too and would be comfortable around ~50$/month

However, I do share Akarsh's concern that the best site can differ based on the weather conditions (bears out in my observing logs over the past few months)

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[Mark Wagner]

I've received more private responses, so I'm starting some contact with the property owner to begin discussion in earnest 

I wonder if the group that used to go to Kevin's at Willow Springs would post their recollection of drive time and from where, so others have an idea.  This new place will have a similar drive time 

Used to take me 1:35 to 1:45 from Los Gatos in light traffic (weekends) down 101 south 

[Richard Navarrete]

2 1/2 hours plus from Oakland .

Richard

Sent from the all new AOL app for iOS

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[Jaimie Henderson]

Hi Mark, I'd be in for your $50 threshold for sure, and possibly more. 

Jaimie

[Mark Wagner]

Thanks Jaime, I have a face to face set up with the ownership during June NM.  We'll be kicking around ideas to see what might be workable.  Nice having an amenable reception on both sides.

I think there's room for more participants.

[KG]

Hi Mark,

I am sure there are some that don’t do as much “astronomy “ as those of you more dedicated bunch, but would be interested in a dark/safe space. May I suggest a second category that uses the space on a pay per visit basis? The yearly payments can subsidise the people who are committed to a recurring charge. 

Gopal K

On May 20, 2026, at 1:01 PM, Mark Wagner <itsmar...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks Jaime, I have a face to face set up with the ownership during June NM.  We'll be kicking around ideas to see what might be workable.  Nice having an amenable reception on both sides.

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[Mark Wagner]

Excellent idea, Gopal. Thank you for writing. Your idea could prove useful speaking with the land owner.

There are others among us on TAC with knowledge and skills I certainly do not possess, one contacted me that has lots of experience in leasing, for example.  I'd like a skilled team that can make this work. It's how we (as a group) were successful in the past (GSSP).

I have a great deal of desire, help in achieving such things is always welcome.  Group astronomy can be great fun!

[Peter Natscher]

The first question that I have about getting a rented property to do reachable and safe astronomy from is what kind of access does each participant get?  Will access be available 24/7 with no reservations or notifications required, like LSA or Pinnacles NP, or is it going to be managed with restrictions?

[Mark Wagner]

 Peter,

I accept there will be many questions, they are welcome.  I liked Gopal's "question", it contained a "solution".

I don't know any private property where unknown folks come and use without notification or reservation.  Kevin at Willow Springs always knew when we (and probably who) were coming.  Same with Bob Ayers.

At Pinnacles West one could not camp, East - you can set up a scope in the manzanita. LSA it's a much longer drive than this endeavor and rule of thumb I know says each additional hour drive reduces the number of people to 1/4.  And LSA = $45 for one night.  Fremont Peak requires 48 hours notice and reservation and membership behind the ranger side gate.  Montebello requires a permit and notice.  Etc., etc., etc.... 

While no place may be perfect we can work for the best and most available to all.  Details forthcoming after the next meeting with the land owner.  Maybe this will work, maybe not - either way I'm up for trying and finding out.

I was concerned this new place might be too far for you, but I suspect your driving time is around the same as LSA, PW.

[Jeff Crilly]

> On May 18, 2026, at 9:00 AM, Mark Wagner <itsmar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> let me ask for those with $50 and $30 a month (or more) replies.

Late to the party here cuz I’m deep in on a project here at the house.

Count me in.
$50/mo ; $600/yr sounds reasonable
$100/mo ; $1200/yr sounds tolerable

Not sure if anyone mentioned vehicle access. Needs to reasonable (LSA is the bottom bar).
Dust policy needs to be strict.

Keep animals in mind. Eg pigs, cows etc., but also lions and bears depending on location.

I recall years ago there were a couple tac ppl that staked out a secret site on BLM land up north. They put in a concrete slab. I also recall bears were a potential issue and sidearms were worn.

-jeff

[Mark Wagner]

You've gotta be referring to "Cheese" and "Whiz"  (Mike and John).  I think they just liked playing with guns in the outback of the Mendocino Forest.

[Jeff Crilly]

Yeah.   As I grew less naive I sensed they were likely combining two hobbies. 

But that said — I’ve personally encountered bears up near Redding at night.    I was in my vehicle looking for a camping spot… and chose to go elsewhere. 

 Anyhow , not likely remotely related to the current discussion.   

IOn May 21, 2026, at 6:39 AM, Mark Wagner <itsmar...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Richard Navarrete]

So far just squirrels and bunnies, Jeff. 😆

Richard

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[Brad Templeton]

You are right that most of these places require some advance notice or permitting.   But I think that's the very thing that many people may feel is a negative for them.   As we all know, the weather is fickle, so the final decision can change up to departure time.  Though you can usually just "not go" I am guessing nobody likes setting up permits for nothing.   They hope to be able to look at the sky and say, "hey, it's a clear night, and I'm free, let's go."

But all sites (other than expensive private land) will have plusses and minuses.   Being able to "just show" and camp is rare, which is why people use LSA or BLM sites.

BTW, for those bothered by the price of LSA, if you are a senior, and somebody else is also going, you can pay $50 for two cars.  You don't have to arrive at the same time, but the first car has to known the name of the person in the 2nd car.  So $25/vehicle is a bit more reasonable!    When I have made mention of this, nobody has been that excited, so it seems folks don't care too much about it.

I have not declared myself in, but the things I think would be big plusses would be some selection from this list:

1. 30 minutes or more closer than LSA
2. Ability to camp or sleep in car
3. Ability to "just show up."     Failing that, an easy online process.
4. Potable water
5. Light electricity (recharge batteries) 
6. Darker skies than Oak Ridge
7. Toilet
8. Ability to install semi-permanent set of Todmorden piers or similar, with the new standard ZWO/Skywatcher quick release puck mount, so I can just slap a mount on one and be ready in minutes.

Of course, no site except a private one is going to have all of these things.

[Mark Wagner]

Remember, all these items and more are part of the discussion and agreement process.  We can ask for anything I'm sure, but should set our expectations to what will actually get us access.

From your list Brad:

30 minutes or more closer than LSA

Check - (more like an hour+ closer).

Ability to camp or sleep in car

Check

An easy online (notification) process. 

Check

Potable water
Check

Light electricity (recharge batteries) 

Maybe

Darker skies than Oak Ridge

LOL!!!  Way.  Light pollution idealized maps:  https://www.lightpollutionmap.info/ shows 21.75.  https://djlorenz.github.io/astronomy/lp/overlay/dark.html shows 21.73.  There are a few lights on the property but not direct line of sight, and likely be easily dealt with.

Toilet

Check.  A flusher a short distance away (we can always ask for adding a porta-potty as well).

Ability to install semi-permanent set of Todmorden piers or similar, with the new standard ZWO/Skywatcher quick release puck mount, so I can just slap a mount on one and be ready in minutes.

I think you need you're gonna need your own property.  :-)   Actually, if things go really well and we have a very happy property owner, such things might be possible.  I just wouldn't start with that or be prepared to quickly table it (just my feeling).

[Brad Templeton]

On 5/21/26 11:21, Mark Wagner wrote:

Ability to install semi-permanent set of Todmorden piers or similar, with the new standard ZWO/Skywatcher quick release puck mount, so I can just slap a mount on one and be ready in minutes.
I think you need you're gonna need your own property.  :-)   Actually, if things go really well and we have a very happy property owner, such things might be possible.  I just wouldn't start with that or be prepared to quickly table it (just my feeling).

Ya gotta have stretch goals!       It's not a minor project, though these piers are comparatively easy and cheap, especially if built in bulk (you bring in an auger and maybe a small concrete mixer) but it obviously requires a very amenable landlord as you have to dig somewhat deep holes for the concrete plugs, though they can be filled back in later if the site shuts down.      But I was just dreaming or what I would put at my own site if I had one.   I guess some people dreamed even bigger, hoping to install a remote telescope with motorized roof observatory.  That's the real stretch goal.    Though PAS did manage to get a site with two domes, in olden days.   I have one like this on my tripod: https://www.ebay.com/itm/197626053457?chn=ps&google_free_listing_action=view_item and on a pier, it would let you slap down your mount and be up and polar aligned in no time.

Otherwise the list of attributes does sound good.  I knew it would have the darker skies than up on skyline, though on the other hand, there's a virtue to being up there with a 30 minute drive as well.  You pay a price in SQM but you gain the ability to use it a lot more.   Which is why I mostly use my backyard, with its terrible skies, and narrowband.

[Drew Pletcher]

I would put in $50-100/month

On Monday, May 18, 2026 at 9:00:10 AM UTC-7 Mark Wagner wrote:

To modify the question about how much would people put in, let me ask for those with $50 and $30 a month (or more) replies.  That's the range I was targeting.

Vishal, I would be in your range to try making this happen.  Obviously the higher the amounts the easier it is to see a way to do it.  I was considering a group anywhere from 12 to 48 people in my calculations.

On Monday, May 18, 2026 at 8:08:50 AM UTC-7 Vishal Kasliwal wrote:

I'd be interested in a group rental site if it's 21.5 mpas or better. I'm willing to pay up to $125 per month if it's a great site, i.e. a site to replace all others (except NV). 

Vishal

On Mon, May 18, 2026, 07:50 Mark Wagner <itsmar...@gmail.com> wrote:

Taken from Lance P's current thread on Dinosaur Point and other possibilities.

I know we've had discussions about buying property, the pros and cons. This is not about buying.

Long ago I was involved in starting GSSP (its predecessors) and CalStar.  It always takes group participation which we had - and we ended up with Richard Ozer and his team, Jamie and his, keeping things rolling along smoothly for now decades. Perhaps we can try getting something started, again.

Instead of buying, an easier in could be "renting".  There been a "buying" sub-group silently around here for ages (still exist?).

Without getting into a how to discussion, I'd like to start just asking if we had access to a desirable location within say, 1-1/2 to 2 hours of the south bay, how many people would be interested.  If you are a yes, how much per month would you be willing to pay?  How many willing to commit (put $$ in) given intelligent and attractive circumstances?

People already pay at Pinnacles, LSA, etc. for entry/camping, and find rules we must comply with, some that are restrictive/difficult.  So, I'm imagining a private property, lock/gated, light control, with amenities.  Bortle 3a (SQM 21.5-21.69) would be decent and could be relatively convenient. 

There's a lot more behind this post - I've been thinking about this for a few months.  What triggered this post is Brad's recent posts about searching, and the news of SCAC losing access to Bonny Doon airport.

There may be all sorts of ways to do it.  Rob Hawley (FPOA) worked on this sort of thing many moons back and I thought he was going to succeed.  Its not a new idea, and exploring creative approaches.

I'd be looking for a small "can do" group of regulars to work on this with, if there is enough interest.  It could be fun creating, and of value to us all.

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[Philip Manela]

I’d be in for $50 per month.  $100 would be a stretch.

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[Mark Wagner]

Thanks Drew, and Philip.

I am saving positive responses into an folder of those who are "yes" to participating.

Obviously there are a finite number of participation openings, and once there I'll close the group.

I do like the recommendation of ad-hoc monthly openings, so hope to keep some available regularly for those who can't commit to longer term participation. That way we have others who come infrequently that are more "in the know" of what we (may) have. So, as we get openings in the regular group over time they could be more easily filled.

Moving forward, I'd like participation from those who want to help (off-list) guide this project. A "project group".  Preferably those with pertinent experience - privately let me know your interest.

Wouldn't it be great to get this done, to have something "close" and dependable?

Mark

[Mark Wagner]

An addendum:

Over time properties change hands.  I know there's been interest by TACos for land purchase.  Maybe already having an "in" someplace...