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Agree. Even the 8 and 16G (heck even 2G) CF cards are more than enough. Norberto has added thumb switches to the Z67-IDE+ to select different segments of the drive, so that you can set up different system configurations. This is a clever capability (but frankly in 10 years I’ve never needed it or used it – your mileage may vary)…
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I've also added the option to CF (and SDCard) boot to select a 256M "segment" to boot from. However, the OS must honor that selection and use it as an offset to all disk I/O. CP/M 3 and MP/M honor it, and we'll have to try and get Heath CP/M and HDOS to also use it.
But, as Glenn said, I haven't used it other than for testing the
feature. Mostly just leave vast areas of the disk unused.
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Seems like a much needed solution for the H89. I actually did build a Z67 interface card for the 89 and had it working with an external Z67-IDE+ but putting everything on a single board seems to make more sense. Something to think about is whether or not you can easily make the CF devices available for removal (e.g. via a ribbon cable arrangement perhaps?) On my Z67-IDE+ boards I remove them fairly often for a variety of reasons…
Glad to see some energy on H89 ideas!
From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Joe Travis N6YPC
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2023 1:09 PM
To: SEBHC <se...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [sebhc] H89-DCF...
I was so inspired by Rick Davis' design and work on the H8 Dual CF board that I decided to duplicate it for the H89. It uses just 4 ICs, 4 diodes, 4 resistors, 2 40p IDC connectors.
I already know the haters are gonna poo-poo the use of 8255s but I feel there is beauty in simplicity. Besides, I'm unaware of anyone pushing their H89s beyond 4 MHz.
Now I'm hoping the design will be picked up and boards created for the H89.
Joe
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Norberto and I have been mulling over an idea for the H89, to basically stretch a "mezzanine" board between the I/O and memory expansion slots. Still in the planning stages, but that would allow for closing the gap between current H8 capabilities and the H89.
See attached image.
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Norberto and I have been mulling over an idea for the H89, to basically stretch a "mezzanine" board between the I/O and memory expansion slots. Still in the planning stages, but that would allow for closing the gap between current H8 capabilities and the H89.
See attached image.
On 1/19/23 10:25, Joseph Travis wrote:
Norberto,
I essentially used the same design as Rick (the first version of the board you did for the H8) with some changes for use with the H89. The only two types of ICs I usedare the 8255 and 74LS14 (two each, one for each channel). By not implementing additional / external LEDs, a spare inverter is available in each 74LS14. I used oneinverter for the RESET L line and the other is used for A2 along with the I/O L decode line (on pin 12).
Stupid me, I laid out and started wiring the board without a schematic. I had many wires down and soldered before I realized I needed a couple OR gates for the I/Oaddress decoding. Not wanting to tear up the wiring I put down in order to add another IC, I instead used 4 diodes and 2 resistors to form the equivalent OR gates Ineeded. The resistors are used as pull downs on the cathodes of the diodes and works fine.
If you want to use your new high speed design or this one, it doesn't matter much to me. I just feel the H89 is long over due for something such as this.
Thanks again,Joe
No problem. I will help you with the board layout. Do you have some handmade schematics that you could share or just use same schematic for Ricks board adapted to the H89?Get Outlook for iOS
From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Joseph Travis <jtravi...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2023 3:01:22 PM
Thank you Norberto! It would be nice to show the H89 some love!
When using the 82C55 you can drive SATA drives with the SATA to IDE adapter. This works on the Z67-IDE+. It is easier to use the CF or SD card. You can use an SD to IDE adapter. Only one SD card is supported by the Z67-IDE+ controller.Get Outlook for iOS
From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Joseph Travis <jtravi...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2023 12:06:21 PM
I'm not sure what purpose that would serve. Due to the limitations of HDOS and CP/M, you reach a point of diminishing returns once you go beyond 16MB.
Are there drive size limitations on the GIDE drives? I ask because I'm wondering if we could use an IDE to SATA converter to use larger SATA drives.
Rob Waggoner
________________________________
From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Terry Gulczynski <terr...@cfl.rr.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2023 12:31:35 PM
To: sebhc Google Group <se...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [sebhc] H89-DCF...
Joe,
Re: your comment about H89s over 4MHz...
I have 2 H89's running @ 12MHz and one at 8MHz. I sold a fourth one a
couple years ago that also ran at 12MHz. All four machines include a
double IDE port design based on the original GIDE by Tilmann Reh, along
with 1MB of Static RAM.
ANY design is welcome to me - 8255 works just fine.
Terry
On 1/18/2023 1:08 PM, Joe Travis N6YPC wrote:
> I was so inspired by Rick Davis' design and work on the H8 Dual CF board
> that I decided to duplicate it for the H89. It uses just 4 ICs, 4
> diodes, 4 resistors, 2 40p IDC connectors.
>
> I already know the haters are gonna poo-poo the use of 8255s but I feel
> there is beauty in simplicity. Besides, I'm unaware of anyone pushing
> their H89s beyond 4 MHz.
>
> Now I'm hoping the design will be picked up and boards created for the H89.
>
> Joe
> 20230118_115555.jpg20230118_112209.jpg
>
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(split thread.... sorry)
Yes, I think we should review the hardware we try to squeeze on
the H89 mezz. Instead of GIDE, use direct-CF maybe. Might also
drop the WizNET/SPI. Probably keep the H89-512K-MMU, RTC, and see
about adding the 28C256 EEPROM? I'm thinking of "new" devices that
we have difficulty assigning I/O port address on the H89 due to
it's restricted I/O slots. Lots to discuss...
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MTR-90 Source code by Terry Gulczynski (terr...@cfl.rr.com)
MTR90.zip - (Pseudo ops in the file are specific to the Zilog Development System -(ZDS) v3.68.
Zilog Developer Studio I version 3.68: ZDS368.exe.zip
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Z67-IDE Imaging Utility
Z67-IDE Windows Imaging Utility.zip
Also try installing Cygwin64 terminal under Windows.
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The HDD Raw Copy tool (“Windows Imaging Utility” link from Norberto). Has worked very nicely for me. I use it to backup and restore CF devices all the time. It can also create and read compressed backups. It is free. I believe it uses a proprietary format so if you need to exchange with someone who isn’t a Windows user then something like dd is a better option, but for personal use I’ve found the HDD Raw Copy tool to be a good choice…
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I was eventually able to find a Linux utility to read Norberto's
images. I have been using https://github.com/Shizmob/unimgc.git
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Not true for HDD Raw Copy tool, you cannot easily transform that
into a raw image of sectors without some program that decodes the
image format.
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The Z67 had jumpers to allow it to be addressed at 17x or 27x but I don’t believe any of their standard software configurations supported the 27x settings. With an H17 you’d have the H17 at 174Q and either H37 or Z67 at 170Q. If you didn’t have an H17 then the H37 would be at 170 and Z67 at 174.
With Norberto’s re-engineered 37/67 interface board you no longer have to stick to the Heath conventions. We have configurations that support the 27x assignment, so now you can have all three drives active: H17 at 174, H37 at 170 and Z67 at 270 or 274.
So are the 27x ranges an option for this situation?
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Magnolia Microsystems did something to expand the H89 I/O ports
available, but I don't think that has been widely adopted here.
They changed the I/O decoder PROM so that the three serial port
signals were now a binary pattern, expanding 3 devices (port
ranges) to 7. This did mean that the standard Heath serial port
card could not be used (without modification), but MMS also made
their own serial card as well as added the serial ports to several
other cards (like the H67-equivalent). The 8250 made this easy
since it has 3 chip-select lines and they are the right polarity
to just work without extra gates.
But, this is part of the reason for the H89-Mezannine card - the
devices on the mezzanine can use any port ranges we want.
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Note, the H89 does not have the option of using ports 27x. The
I/O decoder does not generate any signal for that port range.
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My H89 ignorance is showing…
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"we" do have this MMS I/O decoder around, I think it is named
"444-61C". Or something like that.
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The MMS documentation for their 444-84B monitor ROM has a pretty
good description of that they did, In APPENDIX B of this document
http://sebhc.durgadas.com/mms89/docs/mms-monitor-84b.pdf
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So, bit 6 of 362Q is the H17 side select.
We're also using bit 7 now to enable flashing the EEPROM on new
systems. That may be on the H8 (for now...), but keeping the H8
and H89 as software-compatible as possible would be a good thing.
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The reason you rarely see one single bit being used to select two
storage devices is that it leaves one of those devices vulnerable
at all times (there is no "none selected" state) - higher risk of
corrupting the media if anything does unintentional I/O to that
range (or during power-on/off/RESET). Note how floppies and HDDs
all have discrete select lines.
If you make this incompatible with the H17 by using it's
side-select line (bit 6), you will be restricting the audience for
this board. If you are only talking about a one-off, you are
certainly free to implement it as you wish. I'm just making sure
you have all the information.
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I'm not sure I'm getting my point across. The H17 has already
claimed bit 6 for side-select. This means that both boards cannot
be used in an H89 at the same time.
You might consider using a port multiplexer scheme, like what the H37 does. It's able to access all 4 WD1797 ports plus two H37 control/status ports using only a 4-port range.
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On the H89 going forward the best solution is to use the mezzanine solution from Douglas with CPU speed control. Easy to add features.
Norberto
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Perhaps a smaller board and define what we can fit in there.
-----Original Message-----
From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Douglas Miller
Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2023 8:14 AM
To: se...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [sebhc] H89-Mezannine
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My original idea was to allow the H89 to be on-par with the H8 as far as software it could run (hardware capabilities). For example, AFAIK right now the only CP/M 3 for the H89 requires the (rare) MMS 77318 128K memory add-on. I've been providing a lot of software for the H8, and thought it might be appreciated if that could also run on the H89. The H8-512K-MMU and H8-SPI (WizNET) were two boards, and the direct-attach CF is another to add. The standard H89 just does not have the ability to handle all those add-on boards and still have the standard I/O.
I was looking for a way to expand the H89 without replacing the entire CPU board. However, if there were enough demand for a new CPU board, and it could be done economically (determines the demand I suspect), and H89 owners were willing to make that change, then it might be worth pursuing. I fear that that big of a project may not get done for years, though - at least if we dump it on Norberto to do. It's taken at over two years just to see the H8-Z180 board.
BTW, if we're doing a new CPU board then there is no reason that the slots on the left have to be memory (in fact, there's probably no reason for them to be if the main board has 512K SRAM). We can make the new board with more I/O slots (on the left), but we have to figure out how we assign ports to them (i.e. which ports to assign to which slots).
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I obviously have not fully explained the idea, if you believe the
mezzanine would not allow CP/M 3. Faster CPU would be nice, but I
did development work on a stock H89 running MMS CP/M 3 back in the
day, and it was fine. There are/were speed upgrades for the H89,
too.
I'll restate my concerns about redoing the whole CPU board. I'd like to know what others, who are potential consumers of the product, would think (how many people would actually buy this).
1) Dollar expense of a large-format CPU board. That determines "market".
2) Engineering expense of a full CPU board. Need brackets and support bars, etc. Plus the time for whoever is going to layout the PCB.
3) Logistics of making the modification to an H89. This is not at all like replacing a CPU board in an H8. How many are willing to make this change.
I think it would be nice to start over from scratch and build a better H89. But, if that means making the system "less of an H89" in the eyes of users then the demand is diminished. The work for me is probably minimal, but I'm just protective of Norberto's time and wonder if a project this big can be done by him along with all the other things on his list. Obviously, Norberto needs to chime-in, as well as anyone else that might volunteer to do the layout.
I viewed the mezzanine idea as more authentic (an add-on product that actually was or might have been produced in the '80s), less intrusive, and easier to revert. There were some replacement CPU boards, too, like the DG Super-89, however I don't know how many of those sold. Current sentiments might be different, too, w.r.t. maintaining the original H89 design.
I'd like to hear input from the broader group. Especially
regarding those with serious interest in "buying" either the
mezzanine or full CPU board. If there are those that seriously
want to upgrade their H89 to be more like modern H8s, how far are
they willing to go for that?
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The more I think about this, the more I’m incline to go with the Mezzanine card. We can start with the basics to prove out that the mezzanine will work fine. Then eventually we can evolved such board to be more powerful by adding more options.
Just checking an H89 board that I have on-hand, using the connector to hold the mezzanine board will provide enough clearance to stretch the board downward to the CPU section if more space is needed.
On the Z80, we can use the same and just replaced it with the Z80 20Mhz, add the I/O wait generator to push the I/O boards beyond 4MHz. The on-bord 8250 might need to be replaced with the 16C550 version.
As a team, we need to agree on what we need to add to the mezzanine board. Based on discussions:
Thanks,
Norberto
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I was thinking the 32K EEPROM. Also the RTC.
I'm not sure if we want to add the SPI (WizNET) or not. It also
provides SDCards, but not sure how much demand there is for
CP/NET. We may not need both CF and SDcard, but both have
advantages and disadvantages. I'm thinking just one CF, given the
space it consumes. With SDCard, we could do two. A good question
for the group - would you rather use CF or SDCard for expanded
storage? I suspect we could re-do the SPI using GAL/CPLD and save
a lot of space on the PCB.
Do we need to add the modem UART? Was that to compensate for loss of an I/O slot? Could that be a DUART socket, for the Dual UART + VDIP1 daughter board you already have?
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Updates for review:
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Wow! I’m impressed and nicely done!
Norberto
From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com>
On Behalf Of Joseph Travis
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2023 7:25 PM
To: se...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [sebhc] H89-DCF...
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On Jan 25, 2023, at 11:55 PM, norberto.collado koyado.com <norberto...@koyado.com> wrote:
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Douglas,
Attached is a picture of space that we can use pending final review..
The RAM, ROM, and RTC can go at the bottom of the mezzanine board.
The CF, SD, DUART can go at middle top of the mezzanine board.
Any thoughts,
Norberto
From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of norberto.collado koyado.com <norberto...@koyado.com>
Date: Sunday, January 22, 2023 at 4:58 PM
To: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: [sebhc] H89-Mezannine
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Sounds like a plan.
For the SD (SPI), do you plan on adding capability to install the WizNET module? Just wondering, as that might want to be near the top, too (but less important). If you're adding the SPI, there's not much "cost" to adding a place for the WizNET headers - maybe. That would also mean the SPI EEPROM too (but that's just an 8-pin DIP and needn't be super-accessible).
My other thought was on how far down the mezzanine extends. How close does the PCB get to the CRT yoke in that case? Do we have any concerns there, with electrical interference or heat? Just wondering, as I don't know that much about those circuits except to not touch them.
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Oh, and one more: do we need to leave a cut-out for the ROM
jumpers - if all the ROM/RAM moves to the mezzanine?
Do we need to leave a cut-out for the ROM jumpers – Do you mean on the H89 board? yes.
SPI EEPROM will be there. Yes, planning on WIzNET, but it takes space as the VDIP1, CF card does. Let’s see how it fits.
My other thought was on how far down the mezzanine extends. How close does the PCB get to the CRT yoke in that case? Do we have any concerns there, with electrical interference or heat?
I can use the H8 half size+ board to get some measurements as shown in the attached picture. Not concerned about heat as the H89 has a fan to keep air circulating. More concerned about EMI. All the small parts can go at the bottom.
Norberto
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Re: cut-out, I guess the jumper pins stick up too far? Because otherwise they are not needed when the RAM/ROM reside on the mezzanine.
I guess the upper-left corner need not be cut-out, as there's no
need for the memory slots (and bracket) anymore?
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Also, regarding heat: I was talking about localized heat from the neck of the CRT. Although, I don't remember the H89's having fans.
I'm assuming that (at least) the DRAM and EPROMs are depopulated
when installing the Mezzanine - but are we considering that "too
invasive"? It would certainly cut down on heat and power
consumption.
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Based on the attached picture, no concerns with heat and EMI.
At the bottom of an older H89 that I have there is the flyback screw touching the pcb. I have to cut the board above the plate as any IC below cannot use an IC socket.
So, it makes sense to extend the mezzanine to the left side as those memory connectors are no longer in use to get more space for layout.
I'm assuming that (at least) the DRAM and EPROMs are depopulated when installing the Mezzanine - but are we considering that "too invasive"?
I will need to review the schematics on how to disabled the ROM’s and RAM’s without the need to take them out as it is too much work to do.
Steps to install mezzanine:
Flyback screw interference: No need to go that low.
Do not go below this line as cannot use IC sockets.
Hope this helps,
Norberto
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As I mentioned no concerns about EMI. The reason is that the 16KB RAM board that the H89 uses, it is sitting on top of the flyback and closer to the tube and it works fine.
The mezzanine is a cleaner/better solution. 😊
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See attached file and this is approx. what we can get for the Mezzanine board size.
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That looks like a lot of space, but I guess it is smaller that a full-sized H8 board. Is that about 7"x5", minus the cut-out?
In my opinion, the CF is going to be the biggest use of board space at the top. I'm of the opinion that the WizNET + 2xSDCard is a better use of space - if it comes down to one or the other. You get network and two storage cards for about as much space as one CF socket. Others will want to weigh-in on SDCard vs. CF. You see how tight space gets.
The other option would be to put the serial capabilities back onto an add-on card - at least the H89 has a console port regardless (the DUART would be providing only supplemental serial ports, and the VDIP).
Or, we think about a way to add another I/O slot or expansion
mechanism (a daughter board on top of the mezzanine on top of the
main CPU board? Or an I/O slot who's card lays flat, parallel to
the mezzanine? Or an extended/modified bracket that allows one
add-on card to rise up further from the main board?).
See attached file and this is approx. what we can get for the Mezzanine board size.
Norberto
From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of norberto.collado koyado.com <norberto...@koyado.com>
Date: Saturday, January 28, 2023 at 10:56 PM
To: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: [sebhc] H89-MezannineAs I mentioned no concerns about EMI. The reason is that the 16KB RAM board that the H89 uses, it is sitting on top of the flyback and closer to the tube and it works fine.
The mezzanine is a cleaner/better solution. 😊
From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of norberto.collado koyado.com
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2023 9:55 PM
To: se...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [sebhc] H89-Mezannine
Based on the attached picture, no concerns with heat and EMI.
At the bottom of an older H89 that I have there is the flyback screw touching the pcb. I have to cut the board above the plate as any IC below cannot use an IC socket.
So, it makes sense to extend the mezzanine to the left side as those memory connectors are no longer in use to get more space for layout.
I'm assuming that (at least) the DRAM and EPROMs are depopulated when installing the Mezzanine - but are we considering that "too invasive"?
I will need to review the schematics on how to disabled the ROM’s and RAM’s without the need to take them out as it is too much work to do.
Steps to install mezzanine:
- Power Down H89
- Remove H89 Computer board
- Disable on board ROM’s/RAMS – tristate.
- Remove the left bracket
- Remove 16KB board
- Install mezzanine board
- Install cables
- Insert H89 Computer board
- Power-up H89
- Done!
Flyback screw interference: No need to go that low.
Do not go below this line as cannot use IC sockets.
Hope this helps,
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Is that about 7"x5", minus the cut-out? Not sure, as I cannot find my ruler. ☹ Yes, it is smaller than a full size H8 board.
Or, we think about a way to add another I/O slot or expansion mechanism (a daughter board on top of the mezzanine on top of the main CPU board?
We need to define what makes sense to have on the mezzanine card. Adding a second board on top of the mezzanine, is possible, but we need to define what goes in there.
Or an I/O slot who's card lays flat, parallel to the mezzanine? This is possible as it will be in parallel with the mezzanine board. Which H89 board goes in here?
Or an extended/modified bracket that allows one add-on card to rise up further from the main board?). I cannot visualized this ask. Need a picture or sketch.
Norberto.
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