Chess, anyone? Any more H8T format archives?

[cole erskine]

Hi guys,

Just got my "new" H8/H9 up and running. I'm using Mike's tips from April to use the KCS utility to convert H8T files to WAV files (works great, thanks Mike!) and loading/running those.

Looking specifically for a chess program, but I couldn't get H8CHESS.WAV to run (tried hitting the space bar a couple times to no avail). MYCHESS on Mark Garlanger's site is only available in H8D format.

So far the only .H8T format archives I can find are the "Heath Tape" and the "HUG_885-1009 Tape", both on the SEBHC web site.

Any other sources for H8T files? Or cassette image audio WAV files besides those on Mark's site?

Thanks!

-Cole

[Glenn Roberts]

I can help with this but am about to go on a road trip with my son to upstate NY. If you’re not aware we have some cassette software archived

https://sebhc.github.io/sebhc/software.html#Cassette_Tape_Images

We also have an ability to create new H8T files from .ABS executables. I even have some games for the HA-8-3 graphics card that I’ve written that can be run from H8T.

Take a look at the above URL and we can chat more when I return (Sunday)

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 4, 2022, at 8:57 PM, cole erskine <cers...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi guys,

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[cole erskine]

Hi Glenn,

Thank you for the quick reply.

Wow, thanks, I’ll check out the .ABS threads!

I am aware of the Cassette Tape Images on the SEBHC site.

-Cole

[Glenn Roberts]

I’ve come to realize the simplicity and elegance of the original H8 tape-based loading (which ironically I never used in the old days as I started out with a disk-based setup) I was first inspired by Erik Ackerman’s clean demo

https://youtu.be/NC2BOBhqork

Which uses only the h8 plus a laptop to simulate the tape system and console. Then add Dave Runkle’s adapter that lets you read digital (H8T) images instead of audio (WAV) and you’ve got the basis for a nice easy demo setup. Mike Ladwig has built a cool digital replacement for the tape player and Joe Travis has added speed up and USB capability. Finally, add the new enhanced H8-5 board that Norberto is now completing and suddenly you don’t need a disk system at all to do fun stuff with an H8. Don’t need much RAM either, as there’s no OS. Hopefully this will open the hobby to more people who don’t have functional disk systems. Also makes for a nice simple, reliable way to do demos at VCF and other events.

But we need to gather up some software to make this all be useful, and some of the earliest games and demos have been hard to track down. We may only have hard copy of some, as the earliest HUG volumes were published in print format.

My atoh (ABS to H8T) program lets us build software on a disk-based (HDOS) setup and run the program via the cassette download, but of course the source code must be free of any operating system calls.

I look forward to getting a more complete collection of interesting games and demos, and to documenting all of this. We can also write new programs as I’ve developed the steps to compile C programs to H8T executables.

If you’re interested make sure you’ve read my REMarks write up, which is my first attempt at capturing some of this knowledge…

https://sebhc.github.io/sebhc/REMarks/REMarks%20Issue%205%20-%2024%20January%202022.pdf

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 4, 2022, at 9:43 PM, cole erskine <cers...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Glenn,

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[norberto.collado koyado.com]

I did try H8CHESS.H8T in my H8 system and nothing on either console... It looks broken so far.

Norberto

---

From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Glenn Roberts <glenn.f...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, August 5, 2022 2:52 AM
To: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [sebhc] Chess, anyone? Any more H8T format archives?ive

 

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[cole erskine]

Thank you for trying it, I see you’re an expert here so I feel better now!  ;-)

[norberto.collado koyado.com]

No really! I'm just re-learning again. 

I depend a lot on this group's help and for their professional advice to keep me honest and on the right track.

As a team, a lot has been achieved.

Norby

---

From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of cole erskine <cers...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, August 5, 2022 5:24 PM
To: SEBHC <se...@googlegroups.com>

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[Joseph Travis]

Here's a copy of H8CHESS.H8T that runs on my computer.  It uses the H8-5 serial port.  If running it on a H9 terminal, when the program prompts you with "BIG BOARD?" enter 0 (zero) and <RETURN> otherwise the board will be too big for the H9 display.  Enjoy!

Regards,

Joe Travis n6ypc

 

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[norberto.collado koyado.com]

Thanks Joe, this one worked just fine.

 

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[Richard Davis Jr.]

All,

H8CHESS.H8T is working on my system.

Text comes out on H8-5 terminal port.

CHESS BY SOFTWARE SPECIALISTS - COPYRIGHT 1978
LEVEL OF PLAY (1-5)? 1
BIG BOARD? y
YOUR COLOR: WHITE (8), BLACK (0)? 0
PRESET BOARD? n
01  WH   KP -  K4

    -------------------------------------------------
80  ! *R  ! *N  ! *B  ! *Q  ! *K  ! *B  ! *N  ! *R  !
    -------------------------------------------------
70  ! *P  ! *P  ! *P  ! *P  ! *P  ! *P  ! *P  ! *P  !
    -------------------------------------------------
60  !     !     !     !     !     !     !     !     !
    -------------------------------------------------
50  !     !     !     !     !     !     !     !     !
    -------------------------------------------------
40  !     !     !     !     !  P  !     !     !     !
    -------------------------------------------------
30  !     !     !     !     !     !     !     !     !
    -------------------------------------------------
20  !  P  !  P  !  P  !  P  !     !  P  !  P  !  P  !
    -------------------------------------------------
10  !  R  !  N  !  B  !  Q  !  K  !  B  !  N  !  R  !
    -------------------------------------------------
       1     2     3     4     5     6     7     8

FROM SQUARE: 71
TO SQUARE: 51
01  BL  QRP - QR4
02  WH   QP -  Q4

    -------------------------------------------------
80  ! *R  ! *N  ! *B  ! *Q  ! *K  ! *B  ! *N  ! *R  !
    -------------------------------------------------
70  !     ! *P  ! *P  ! *P  ! *P  ! *P  ! *P  ! *P  !
    -------------------------------------------------
60  !     !     !     !     !     !     !     !     !
    -------------------------------------------------
50  ! *P  !     !     !     !     !     !     !     !
    -------------------------------------------------
40  !     !     !     !  P  !  P  !     !     !     !
    -------------------------------------------------
30  !     !     !     !     !     !     !     !     !
    -------------------------------------------------
20  !  P  !  P  !  P  !     !     !  P  !  P  !  P  !
    -------------------------------------------------
10  !  R  !  N  !  B  !  Q  !  K  !  B  !  N  !  R  !
    -------------------------------------------------
       1     2     3     4     5     6     7     8

FROM SQUARE:

Rick

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[Glenn Roberts]

Great to know this works! Thx…

Sent from my iPad

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[cole erskine]

Thank you, Joe! As Norberto and Rick have already noted, this version of H8CHESS.H8T that you uploaded works just fine. However,

it is NOT the same as the H8CHESS.H8T in tape-images.zip at https://sebhc.github.io/sebhc/software.html#Cassette_Tape_Images

File size and name are the same, but the one in the Heath tape archive is different than Joe's version and doesn't work.

Thanks, guys, for all the help! I'm using chess as my demo program for my H8 exhibit at VCF West this weekend in Mountain View!

-Cole

[Richard Davis Jr.]

The version I used is from the tape images.zip. Is this the one you say doesn't work? 

Rick

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[Joseph Travis]

Cole,

Glad to help.  If you're over by the Commodore PETs, tell Chuck Hutchins "hello".

Joe

On Sat, Aug 6, 2022, 8:05 PM cole erskine <cers...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[cole erskine]

Yes. I'm also using an H8-5, but I do have a Z80 CPU. Could there be something that only allows that version to run on an 8080?

-Cole

[Joseph Travis]

Cole,

There's no issue with the Z80 vs. 8080 in this instance. You probably had a bad copy of the program is all.

Joe

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[glenn.f...@gmail.com]

The version that Joe posted differs from the one on the github site but almost all the differences are in the first sector, which is probably the I/O front end.  I was guessing that perhaps the version from the github site was for the 8250 (H8-4) console but I was unable to get it to respond (I didn’t hook up the H9 but Cole already tried that).  I’ll take a closer look to see if I can  understand the difference.  If both are worth keeping we’ll have to give them different names of course.

 

I don’t’ know how good a chess game this is but its impressive that it fits in 6k…

 

From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Joseph Travis

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[cole erskine]

On Level 1, the computer moves very quickly but I checkmated it in six moves. On Level 2, it can take between 20-60 seconds per move, but the computer still only survives for 20+ moves.

I'm going to try to get MYCHESS running next. Written by David Kittinger (author of Chessmaster 2000), MyChess competed quite successfully in computer chess tournaments from '79 to '81.

-Cole

[Joseph Travis]

MyChess is disk based (CP/M or HDOS), can be run in ASCII text or H19 graphics modes and would be difficult to play using a H9.  You are correct, it was very well regarded back in the day.

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[Glenn Roberts]

There’s also Sargon. We have source for that…

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 8, 2022, at 3:25 PM, Joseph Travis <jtravi...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[cole erskine]

I saw Rick’s post in January about his Sargon 8080 H8 port. Very impressive. 

-Cole 

[glenn.f...@gmail.com]

Do I did do an analysis of the two H8CHESS programs, one being the one in our H8T collection on Github and the other being the one shared by Joe Travis.  We have determined that Joe’s version works but we have been unable to get the other copy to work.

 

They are both hard coded for the H8-5 (8251) console port (372Q/373Q).  They differ only in the console I/O drivers in the first 256 bytes.  The functions, and even much of the code is the same between the two versions, however the routines are in a different order in the good version.  The good version has some tweaks/fixes such as at the beginning of the USART set up code there is a DI instruction and at the end there is an EI (console input is interrupt-driven); also there is at least one other tweak to how the USART is initialized.  There may be other changes as I only did a visual comparison on the disassembled code.

 

My conclusion is that the one on the Github site is perhaps an early beta release or may never have worked reliably?  The one Joe shared is improved/debugged code and is the one to use.  Joe: any idea what the provenance is of this version?

 

I should be able to replace the site version with the good copy that Joe has provided.

 

The program was released in 1978 and written by “Software Specialists.”  I could find no reference to them in the Sextant magazine advertiser index, nor in Mark Garlanger’s list of vendors.  Perhaps a one-person and/or one-product operation or hobbyist ?

 

I guess I would trust Sargon to be perhaps a better chess player than this one…  or MYCHESS (but you’ll need HDOS) which is in Vol. 5 of Les’ archive

https://sebhc.github.io/sebhc/software/Applications/H8DCATALOG_VOL5.HTML

 

I would consider adapting Sargon to use the HA-8-3 graphics card as we have full source code plus I have a copy of Dan and Kathe Spracklen’s book which describe the code in detail…

 

Rick Davis mentioned (here) that years ago  he had adapted Sargon II for use with an 8080 (the original was Z80) and the H 8 front panel.  Rick? Is this code still around somewhere?...

 

I guess since we’re speaking of Chess there’s also the Turbo Pascal version, which has full source…

 

This is a case where running software from the H8T format (vs an OS-based program on HDOS or CP/M) has an advantage as the full memory space is available to the code. No pesky OS hogging the RAM!

 

And finally (sorry to ramble): Cole: how did your H8/H9 demo go at VCF west?

 

Ok really finally now (more rambling) this Computer History Museum interview with the Spracklens is interesting:

http://archive.computerhistory.org/projects/chess/related_materials/oral-history/spacklen.oral_history.2005.102630821/spracklen.oral_history_transcript.2005.102630821.pdf

 

 

 

• Glenn

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[Joseph Travis]

Glenn - 

I have two zip files that I downloaded from the usual sources, but I'm not sure which one I'm using.  The first one is: h8.zip and the other is: tape-images.zip.  Both have many of the same programs however, there are some differences.  Unfortunately, gmail won't allow me to send these as attachments.

Joe

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[Tom Wilson]

Been looking for my Sargon book all week...
Tom

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--
Tom Wilson <><
Prineville Oregon

[Glenn Roberts]

I have their book but I believe it’s for the original version. If we want to get something working it would be nice if it was Sargon II, if we could find it.  Not sure they ever published a book with the Sargon II listing??

 

Tom: what’s the story on the FORTRAN version you shared?  Have you gotten that to run on an H8/89?

 

From: <se...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Tom Wilson <tomlan...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: <se...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 12:46 PM
To: <se...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [sebhc] Chess, anyone? Any more H8T format archives?ive

 

Been looking for my Sargon book all week...
Tom

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[Tom Wilson]

I will keep looking for the book

I have collected Fortran versions of chess over the years
I need to move them to my H8-2000 and try to compile them...
I am not sure my H8/H17 with two drives would have enough room

Tom

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[Richard Davis Jr.]

Tom,

I have been re-creating what I did 40+ years ago. I have the move code assembling under HDOS.

I am now implementing the code for user input and output using the H8 front-panel and keypad.

Slow going but, making progress. Can only work a couple to a few hours a day.

Once it runs under HDOS, I will be removing any HDOS code, mainly debug, and create an H8T file.

Rick

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[Richard Davis Jr.]

Attached is a functioning Sargon implementation for the H8 using the front-panel.

There is one strange artifact I can't figure out what is going on.

When Sargon is "thinking", I rotate through the six outer segments of a display digit.

For some reason, other segments flash on and then do off.

Attached zip includes an H8T file along with short instructions.

Feel free to provide feedback.

Rick

[Douglas Miller]

One possible explanation for the display misbehaving is that you need to disable the ROM monitor auto-update of the display if you are controlling it in your program. That may be what's going on.

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[Richard Davis Jr.]

Douglas,

I think I am doing that. I set bit 1 of the mflag memory location.

All of the other messages seem to be OK.

Rick

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[glenn.f...@gmail.com]

Rick: congratulations on getting this working. I’m sure it was a lot of work!

 

I was able to download and run this. First impressions/experiences:

 

• I ran this on A Z80 Rev2.6 CPU at 2Mhz (so far – haven’t tried higher speeds yet)
• I did not notice the other segments flashing off and on. the outer segments of the center digit rotated to show “thinking” as you described
• I tried a depth of 3 for starters and even this was quite slow.  I typically would make a move and come back later to see what the response was.  I didn’t explicitly time it.
• I initially let the computer play white
• The program seems to have crashed after only a few moves
• Computer: E2-E4
• Me: E7-E5
• Computer: G1-F3
• Me: F7-F6
• Computer: ??  - came back to find machine had reset.  May be hardware related I suppose, but this has been a pretty solid cpu.
• Wondering if you did the Z80 emulation (for 8080) via macros?  i.e. can the code still be assembled for Z80 mode?  Would be a shame to preclude that given the number of users in our group with Z80 CPUs.
• I am looking for graphics projects for the HA-8-3. It could be fun to add a graphical front end to your code.

 

Will keep experimenting.  Will try a depth of 1 for starters…

 

Thanks!

 

• Glenn

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[glenn.f...@gmail.com]

Rick: So I did try running the Sargon program at 10Mhz CPU.  I did this by:

 

• Downloading the H8T file (at 2mhz CPU speed)
• Manually setting the CPU speed to 10 Mhz (via front panel: MEM 003.220    OUT)
• Hitting “go” (4) key

 

I saw some inconsistent flakiness in the front panel display.

 

The prompt “Play?” was quite shaky and inconsistent, but once I hit ‘1’ (for yes) the next menus (color and level) displayed fine.  then once the game began the display showing the moves was shaky and inconsistent.  Other LED display programs seem to work fine at 10Mhz on this machine (it is using the “new” front panel driven by on-board 2.048 Mhz oscillator).

 

Were you planning to share your code somewhere?  Perhaps if we looked at the code we could understand what’s causing these odd behaviors…

 

• Glenn

 

 

From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Richard Davis Jr.
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2022 9:17 AM

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[Richard Davis Jr.]

Glenn,

I only testes depth 1 and 2. In my past experience, depth 3 took reaaly long. I think it was > 15 minutes or more. I will look at that.

I use a windows cross assembler to do this and it had no macro support. It used the TDL instructions.

I was planning on making a z80 version, I can test using my h89 in text mode instead of h8 front panel mode.

I also was thinking about ha83 graphics.

Once i get z80 mode, and fix the crash, i can send you the source code.

Thanks for your input.

Rick

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[glenn.f...@gmail.com]

Great!  Although it was a bit difficult to decipher the messages on the flickering LEDs I was able to play a chess game at 10Mhz, though I only played about 10 moves or so…  at 10Mhz it is pretty responsive! the LED display is rock solid while entering the new move but as soon as it goes into “thinking” mode it starts flickering all over the place and continues that when it is displaying the move.  Not sure if that helps you any…

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[Richard Davis Jr.]

lenn,

Attached is a Z80 build.

It ran on my h89 in text mode. I can't test on my H8.

Still not sure about flickering.

Using Z80 instructions is definitely faster.

Rick

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[glenn.f...@gmail.com]

Great. Was able to download and verify that it works. Haven’t tried to play a game yet. Tx.

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[Richard Davis Jr.]

I am testing using dueling Sargon's on level 3.

One running on my H89, the other on my H8.

Rick

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[glenn.f...@gmail.com]

I played the 8080 version for a bit and after half a dozen moves or so it seems to have crashed.  While the computer was thinking about its move it suddenly beeped and displayed 377377 (top of RAM) which usually means it did a reset.  I don’t think this was a hardware issue – it seems something got clobbered and reset the machine….

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[glenn.f...@gmail.com]

There seems to be a bug of some kind in SARGONZ80 in the front panel entry code.  No matter if I play black or white I can’t enter the number portion of the move.  E.g. if I play black and the computer moves white “E2-E4” then I want to move, say “E7-E5” I hit the ‘5’ key and see an ‘E’ but no matter what key I hit next I get an “invalid move”… “try again”…  these same keystroke sequences were working fine in the 8080 version…

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[Richard Davis Jr.]

Glen,

Hmmm. Must have missed something in z80 keypad mode. H89 text mode worked fine. 8080 input, as you know, worked.

Thanks for testing.

RIck

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[Glenn Roberts]

I guess you don’t have a way to test the z80 version on the H8. Happy to help…

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 24, 2022, at 7:30 PM, Richard Davis Jr. <rickdav...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Richard Davis Jr.]

Glenn,

No, my H8s are 8080 right now.

Rick

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[Richard Davis Jr.]

Updated Z80 version should resold invalid move issue.

Rick

[glenn.f...@gmail.com]

Seems to work fine Rick!  I’ve only played about 10 moves into the game but so far so good.  Even though it’s only Level 1 (otherwise takes a long time) that’s not a bad match for my (poor) chess skills!

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[glenn.f...@gmail.com]

I was able to beat the computer pretty easily on level 1 (I’m playing black):

 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/xc5tzxyCXUh79SDt9

 

I think the LED display says “u Win” ??  the CPU was running at 2 Mhz.

 

I used my old Fidelity Chess Challenger strictly as a playing board for this game.  (The power supply got lost somewhere along the way, or maybe it died. Can’t remember.)

 

I may rig up a replacement PS and have the Fidelity play Sargon II.  Battle of the 70’s micros… (both Z80s…)

 

 

 

FYI the H8 is the system I call “Game Boy”. I’ve been using it primarily to develop programs and games for the new HA-8-3 board (more info on that coming at a later time…)

 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/AiK1CV6pzc75SgQP8

 

it has mostly “new” boards:

                Z80 CPU Rev 3.1 w/ DUART/USB daughterboard

                H8-H67-H37 disk I/O

                Z67 IDE+ (in re-purposed ZDS cabinet: https://photos.app.goo.gl/DVjnWD8XBhvsn4VGA)

                HA-8-3

                H8-8255 PPIO board (currently used only for parallel printing)

                “new” front panel with backlit keypad and “relegendable” keycaps

 

                The H8-5 is original except for the “Astrorat” daughterboard used to download H8T files

                The power supply and backplane are also original (backplane is the later “gold pin” version)

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[Richard Davis Jr.]

Fantastic. Glad it is working.

Yup, you win. The book has you win but i truncated it.

Rick

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[glenn.f...@gmail.com]

So this discussion of computer chess from the 70s sent me down a rabbit hole (as often happens) and I stumbled on Franz Huber’s site:

https://fhub.jimdofree.com/

 

which has an emulator “CB-Emu” (for Windows) that can run about 400 different chess playing programs. The site is current and actively maintained. His emulator uses the original ROM images. So below is Fidelity Challenger “7” (Model BCC) for example (I have the actual device, which was a gift from my parents when I got my first “real” job. I need to track down a power supply).

 

If I get ambitious one of these days I may throw the ROM image at the Dazzle Star disassembler and see what I get (I’ve been unable to find any source code.)  I also learned that Dan and Kathe Spracklen (of Sargon fame) collaborated with Ron Nelson at some point on the Chess Challenger code, so some of the Sargon data structures may show up in there (?)  He’s also got most  (all?) of the Fidelity games in there, e.g. backgammon, reversi, checkers…

 

Amazing what Fidelity was able to do with 4K of ROM and only 256 bytes of RAM. In addition to the Z80, 2 RAM chips (2111) and the ROM there were only four ICs on the board: 7404 hex inverter (CPU clock); 75492 & NE591 (LED display & sound driver); 74365 (3-state bus driver); 74LS378 (6 flip flops).

 

I haven’t yet compared compute speed to the original but the emulator does at least slow down the I/O and LED functions to be like the real one.

 

[Joseph Travis]

And then there was 1K ZX Chess written in Z80 assembler in just 682 bytes!

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[glenn.f...@gmail.com]

Rick: it’s a rainy day here so I am having MYCHESS (Software Toolworks) play against your Z80 implementation of SARGON.  MYCHESS has a bit of an advantage as its running on a Z80 at 10Mhz with a ply level of 3 (plus I think it’s a more mature chess program than Sargon).  SARGON is running on a Z80 at 2 Mhz.  I chose a ply level of 2, so SARGON obviously takes much more time to make its move than MYCHESS.  SARGON is playing White, MYCHESS is playing Black.

 

At the 5^th move something happened with the SARGON display.  it’s not clear what move it was trying to display (and the “to” field of the move is C4 but it had already moved the white bishop to C4 on the previous move!? So both the “from” and “to” fields seem to be messed up).  SARGON H8 is on the top in this picture:

 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/YCYNxmCifEftwMCA8

 

I realize you don’t have a Z80 system so this may be a difficult bug to track down but thought I should let you know…

 

I may try another game (but at lower ply level on SARGON to speed things up).  Will let you know if I find anything else…

 

• Glenn

 

 

 

From: glenn.f...@gmail.com <glenn.f...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2022 8:41 PM
To: se...@googlegroups.com

[Richard Davis Jr.]

Glenn,

I do have a z80 system. The trionyx z80 works and runs at 4mhz.

I will try it when i get a chance.

I am on vacation this week at avon nc. Ocean front. Rather rainy here too.

Thanks for using it. Most of the code is verbam from the book. Just ui differences. Maybe i messed something up and things are getting stompmed on. I think i saw the same issue. Moving a piece it alread moved.

Rick

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[Glenn Roberts]

Great. Unfortunately I haven’t found a repeatable way to trigger the problem…

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 23, 2022, at 12:07 PM, Richard Davis Jr. <rickdav...@gmail.com> wrote:



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