Simple USB Serial to H8-5 Cassette Interface

[Joe Travis N6YPC]

I had a spare FTDI board looking for a project when I came up with this idea to interface it to the 8251 used for the cassette port on the H8-5 board and it works great!  Now I can download H8T files directly from my laptop to the H8.  If anyone else would like to duplicate this, follow the directions given below.

DIRECTIONS:

1.  Use clear RTV silicone to attach the FTDI board to the 8251 (IC 123)

2.  Bend out the following pins on the 8251: 3, 17, 19, 22, 23, 25

3.  Connect a wire between TxC (9) and RxC (25) on the 8251

4.  Insert a 6 pin header into the FTDI board

5.  Make the following connections between the FTDI board header and 8251:

FTDI        8251

GND        GND (4)

CTS        RTS (23)

Vcc        N/C

TXO        RxD (3)

RXI        TxD (19)

DTR        CTS (17), DSR(22)

Regards,

Joe Travis

[Glenn Roberts]

Very cool. Was this a SparkFun breakout board? What FTDI board are you using? How fast can you run it?

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 14, 2022, at 9:01 PM, Joe Travis N6YPC <jtravi...@gmail.com> wrote:

I had a spare FTDI board looking for a project when I came up with this idea to interface it to the 8251 used for the cassette port on the H8-5 board and it works great!  Now I can download H8T files directly from my laptop to the H8.  If anyone else would like to duplicate this, follow the directions given below.

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[Joseph Travis]

Hi Glenn,

Yes, it is a SparkFun board.  I purchased a few of these a year or so ago, somewhere in the $5-7 range for each. I had used this one 

for programming some GoTek floppy drive emulators (still trying to get working images for my H89 and H100).  I just left everything

set at 1200 baud for simplicity's sake.  I imagine it could go much faster but, I'm content with it for the moment.

Regards,

Joe Travis

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[norberto.collado koyado.com]

Very nice and thank you for sharing your configuration on the RS-232 interface. I'm building a new H8-5 Cassette Controller to do the same based on the H89-5 schematics. I duplicated the H89-5 board a 100% using same names for all the components (U7xx, R7xx, etc). New enhancements will have different labels such as U1, R1, etc. The maximum baud rate that I wired for the H8T files transfer is 19.2K bps. Minimum 1.2K bps (cassette default). 

Here is the link to the new H8-5 board:  http://koyado.com/heathkit/New-H8-Website/h8-5-cassette-io.html

Component's front view: http://koyado.com/heathkit/New-H8-Website/download/h8-5-components-view%20(1).png

3D view: http://koyado.com/heathkit/New-H8-Website/download/3d-layout.jpg

I will add the following change to the RS-232 interface based on your configuration as I have spare input pin. Great timing. 

DTR        CTS (17), DSR(22)

Thanks,

Norberto

H8-5 CASSETTE IO H8-5 Cassette IO koyado.com

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From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Glenn Roberts <glenn.f...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 6:28 PM
To: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [sebhc] Simple USB Serial to H8-5 Cassette Interface

 

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[Joseph Travis]

Norberto,

It's almost 3am and I can't sleep while wondering about this...

I noticed your H8-5 only has one 8251.  This works in H89 because the ROM monitor uses an 8250 at 350Q for the console device whereas the H8 ROM monitor uses another 8251 at 270Q for it's console.

How will this board work in a H8 without a change to the ROM?

Regards,

Joe Travis n6ypc

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[Glenn Roberts]

It’s a good point. Most of the software that we have in H8T format requires an 8251 (H8-5) for the console. Certainly all of the early tape OS versions and HUG software. If the new board does not have dual 8251s most of that legacy software could not be run without creating new versions. The console code at the beginning of each program was standardized (and the precursor to HDOS’ device drivers). It could be possible to develop an 8250 version (has this already been done at some point?) but undoubtedly some code bypassed these drivers.

If one of the use cases for the new board is demonstrating legacy software we will have to address this.

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 15, 2022, at 2:56 AM, Joseph Travis <jtravi...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[glenn.f...@gmail.com]

So I probably need to be “educated” but the H88 was sold with cassette only interface, right?  And apparently Heath had a version of the Tape OS (“Cassette Systems Software”) that worked with it…  From catalog 846, P33 (1979):

 

 

Do we have such a version?  Presumably this version knew how to talk to the H88 console (which used an 8250 UART like the H89, right?)

 

The only tape OS I know that we’ve got is for the earlier H8-5.

[glenn.f...@gmail.com]

Joe: Sorry I didn’t see the pictures you had attached when I first read the note. 

 

Your directions talk about modifying the cassette USART (IC123) but the picture shows the sparkfun breakout board on top of the console USART (IC124).  So you re-purposed the console USART with the sparkfun FTDI board.  I see the switch is set to “PORT INTCHG” - does that mean you toggle the port interchange switch to do downloads (reverting back to “normal” to run the program)?

 

Just trying to reconcile the picture with your description…

 

• Glenn

 

 

 

 

From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Joseph Travis
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 9:41 PM
To: se...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [sebhc] Simple USB Serial to H8-5 Cassette Interface

 

Hi Glenn,

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[Joseph Travis]

Hi Glenn,

I wondered if anyone would notice! While troubleshooting and testing, I was switching it around. Right after successfully downloading the CHASELED program, I took photos.  I realized this after I posted the original message.

It works in either socket with the correct switch setting. I had thought about having both channels setup this way but decided to keep the RS-232 interface for the console.

BTW - Why were you up at 5am?!

Regards,

Joe Travis n6ypc

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[Norby]

My take is that if the tape works fine on the H89 at port 350 with the 8250, then same configuration will work on the H8. This board will not work on an H8 without the H8-4 quad serial port board. For sure users application hardwired to the 8251 console will not work. Let me know if I’m missing something here.

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 15, 2022, at 4:55 AM, glenn.f...@gmail.com wrote:



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[Joseph Travis]

Norberto,

Just because the H8-4 is installed doesn't mean the H8 monitor ROM is going to recognize it and change the console device from the 8251 to the 8250.  I don't believe this board will work as intended without the appropriate firmware / software modifications.

Regards,

Joe Travis n6ypc

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[Joseph Travis]

I apologize if I'm wrong about this.  The console routines could be in the tape image files and do the detection and configuration there.  I guess this should be investigated.  I'll see what I can find out...

Regards,

Joe Travis n6ypc

[Norberto Collado]

The only difference is that the H89 initializes the 8250 on power-up and the H8 does not do this (need to press on space bar), unless you are running on the new Z80 Monitors.

 

If you can test the H8 with the 8250 as a console, that will be great. I will review the H89 documentation again. I do not recall seen cassette tapes only for the H89 and only for the H8.

 

Norberto

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[Joseph Travis]

Norberto,

I downloaded EXBASIC.H8T using the H8-5 as the console, just to make sure it worked correctly with the original setup.  I then powered down the H8, removed the H8-5 board and removed the 8251 at IC124 (which is the console channel) to simulate your intended setup.  I reinstalled the H8-5, powered up the H8 and downloaded EXBASIC.H8T again, using my H19 connected to the H8-4, port 350Q.  The program didn't display or respond to the H19.

Regards,

Joe Travis n6ypc

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[Glenn Roberts]

Right. The first chunk of each of the Heath programs is the console driver. It is the same for all of them. It could be modified to use the 8250. In fact it seems to me that Heath did this at some point to support cassette operations on the H88. I’ll have to dig a bit to see what I can find. I’m guessing tape operation was not nearly as widespread on the H88/89 as it was on the early H8 ?

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[Norberto Collado]

Did you try pressing the space bar to init USART? I’m confused in terms that if the same tape works on the H89, it should work on same configuration with the H8. I think we need to init the H8 console as the H89 does to make this work.

 

Are you using a 8080A CPU card?

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[Joseph Travis]

Yes, I tried the space bar and return several times each.  My H8 has a 8080 CPU board with a Z80.  It has the latest version PAM ROM for that board (not the PAM-37).

Regards,

Joe Travis n6ypc

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[Joseph Travis]

Here's a photo of the FTDI mod installed in the correct (IC123) location, with the USB cable connected.

[glenn.f...@gmail.com]

The console driver, at  least  in the early versions of the Tape OS, was exclusively for the 8251 USART at port 372Q/373Q.  see attached listing.

 

Norberto: if you have a later version of the Tape OS that works on the H88/H89 we may need to get you to create .H8T files of all the components. Presumably Heath updated the console driver portion at some point to work with either 8251 or 8250? (or there was a H88/89-specific version?).

 

I believe the console portion of the ones on SEBHC dates to late 1976 (written by Gordon Letwin!)  The H89 and H8-4 hadn’t been invented yet…

 

https://sebhc.github.io/sebhc/software.html#Cassette_Tape_Images

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[norberto.collado koyado.com]

Thanks Joe, for the feedback! 

I will keep checking on this concern. I took a quick look at MTR88 as it supports the cassette and they just list the following ports for the cassette. On ports 372Q/373Q, the MTR88, just traps them and do nothing with them. 

 

.

I think you are loading a pre-configured tape already configured to the 8251A. Per Heath, the original/distribution tapes are not configured, so this might explain why it should work on port 350 for the 8250, but I'm not sure.

Norberto

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From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Joseph Travis <jtravi...@gmail.com>

Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 11:53 AM

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[Joseph Travis]

Or would it be easier to add a second 8251 to the board to avoid the hassle of creating duplicates of the H8T files, thereby eliminating the confusion of maintaining 2 versions of the same files in the library...

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[norberto.collado koyado.com]

Thanks Glenn, for the feedback!  So, the H8T files that we have are hardwired to the 8251A. I will need to check what tapes. Do they have a date on them?

Norberto

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From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of glenn.f...@gmail.com <glenn.f...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 12:32 PM
To: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: [sebhc] Simple USB Serial to H8-5 Cassette Interface

 

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[glenn.f...@gmail.com]

I believe that’s the case, at least if they agree with the printed listing.  I can load DBUG and examine the code, but based on what Joe’s seeing I think these work only with the H8-5/8251.  I’m not sure of the provenance of the H8T files. I believe they were sent to Les by Carroll Wadell at some point in the past. I don’t have access to the physical tape media.  Somewhere in my boxes of stuff I do believe I have some Heath system tapes but I haven’t turned them up yet. I’ll keep looking…

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[glenn.f...@gmail.com]

I believe the only configuration options on the versions we currently have are AUTO NEWLINE, BKSP, CONSOLE LENGTH, HIGH MEMORY, LOWER CASE, PAD COUNT, and RUBOUT.

 

See https://sebhc.github.io/sebhc/documentation/software/tape/Software%20Reference%20Manual%20595-2048%20Section%200%20-%20Introduction.pdf

 

Page 19..

 

Assuming that Heath later added some kind of console detection logic to the Tape OS it perhaps worked something like the logic in HDOS?  Not sure quite what HDOS does if a system has both the H8-4 and H8-5?  Perhaps it uses the H8-4 (port 350) if it sees one, and then looks for the H8-5 (port 372) if no H8-4 is found?  This can be easily figured out if we just look at the code of course 😊

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[Joseph Travis]

HDOS 2.0 doesn't look at the H8-5 board.  When it boots up and displays SPACE on the front panel, I tried typing spaces to the H8-5 console port and nothing happens.  I then typed spaces on the H8-4 console port and it responded with ACTION?  <BOOT>.

Regards,

Joe Travis n6ypc

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[glenn.f...@gmail.com]

Tx. So I think you’ve proven my hypothesis. If it sees the H8-4 it apparently doesn’t bother looking for the 5. That makes sense. The H8-4 was newer and deemed somewhat “superior” so I presume they made that the priority for a console, when given a choice.  HDOS2 will, of course, run on an H8-5 system, you just have to remove or disable (or change the port on) the H8-4 (and probably start with a clean copy of HDOS) and it will find the H8-5 console port. You could also run with both cards and convert your old cassette programs over to HDOS.



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[Joseph Travis]

I tested again with the H8-4 console port (350Q) address jumpers set to OFF and booted HDOS 2.0.  This time there was no SPACE message displayed on the H8 and the H8-5 console port displayed ACTION? <BOOT>.  My question now is, going forward, how does this affect the library of H8T files?

Regards,

Joe Traivs n6ypc

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[norberto.collado koyado.com]

This is what I found in trying to understand on why I need an 8251A console port on the H8 and not on the H89. Per this add the cassettes are compatible with either system.

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From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Joseph Travis <jtravi...@gmail.com>

Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 3:13 PM

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[Joseph Travis]

So it appears there were different versions depending on which computer you are using. But, this is only for the programs described, not any others.

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[Joseph Travis]

Norberto,

I'm not sure that you saw this part of the ad which indicates there are two versions of the software. 

Regards,

Joe Travis n6ypc

[Glenn Roberts]

Right.

So we just need to find a copy of the H-88-18 tape!

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[Glenn Roberts]

Not sure I understand your question, Joe. But maybe this will answer it?

 

If you have a system that can run HDOS but still has the H8-5 tape interface installed and operational you can move your old tape-based files over to disk.  There are three programs that can help with this: BASCON, TXTCON and MEMCON.  BASCON and TXTCON will retrieve BASIC and text files (respectively) and prompt you for a file name in which to store them.  For BASIC programs you may need to do some editing to get them to work with the disk-based Extended BH BASIC. MEMCON does the same thing for “memory” images (i.e., machine language programs). You can run these memory image programs from the HDOS prompt via a program supplied but since they typically load and run at 040.100 they will wipe out your HDOS in RAM.

 

BASCON and TXTCON were distributed with early versions of HDOS (e.g., 1.5) but later made available via HUG (885-1077).  MEMCON is included with the “Tape Memory Image” HUG disk (885-1061).  Both are in Les’ HUG Application Library (https://sebhc.github.io/sebhc/software.html)

 

I also wrote a program called ATOH that converts .ABS files to .H8T. see Les’ Wiki (scroll down to Utilities)

https://github.com/sebhc/sebhc/wiki

 

I did this so that I could use the HDOS assembler to create programs that I could then load via tape (for VCF demo). 

 

It should be straightforward to build a program that goes the other way (HTOA), if there was interest/need/value… this would only work for memory/machine language programs.

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[Joseph Travis]

Glenn,

I'm not sure what the question was.  It may be that I'm concerned about the inability to run H8 tape programs on a H8 using the new H8-5 board (I wish it was called something else to avoid confusion).  I believe the majority of the tape software was developed for the H8 with an original H8-5 which does not necessarily run on a H88 and therefore not on a H8 with the new H8-5.  In my view, this is (potentially) an unnecessary problem.

Granted, the Heath development software for the H88 will run but, what about all the old HUG software?  How many of those buying the new H8-5 will be developing tape based programs?

Regards,

Joe Travis n6ypc

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[Glenn Roberts]

I believe if we can find (or recreate) the version of the console drivers that supports the mixed environment (8051 for Tape; 8050 for console) all will work.  The new board Norberto is working on will make the H8 work like the old H88.  To me this means finding a copy of the H-88-18 tape (or H8T capture thereof) since that is the version of the Tape OS that supported this configuration.  If we can’t find it, it would not be too hard to create an 8250 version of the console driver. The code is pretty simple (previous email I sent) but preferable, of course, to find the Heath original.  We may have to reach out in the group to see if anyone has the H88 version of the Tape OS tape.

 

basic programs should all still run since they just call BASIC i/o statements, which in turn call the driver. Similarly all the Heath programs (BUG-8, TED-8, HASL-8, BH BASIC) should work   Also any machine language code that uses the front panel/PAM-8/LEDs would be unaffected. I don’t think many (any?) of the HUG programs would have a problem.

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[Joseph Travis]

I've been testing a variety of tape programs this morning.  I found that EXBASIC - EXBASIC2 work with the H8-5 and EXBASIC3 - EXBASIC6 use the H8-4.  Just in case you (or someone else) is looking for code differences.

BTW - If you're running your CPU at 4MHz or faster, I expect you should be able to run both (cassette and console) ports at 19.2K.

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[Kenneth L. Owen tx836519]

Hi Joseph,

 

At 4 MHz clock, you can run the terminal at 19.200 baud, but only after you upgrade the terminal logic board clock to 3 MHz.

 

• ken

 

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[norberto...@koyado.com]

OK! I will add the second 8251A IC to this board, so you can load either tape; H8 or H88.

 

The RS232 connector for this 8251A will be at the bottom of the board as I do not want to re-layout the whole board by moving most of the components.

 

How we should call this new H8-5 Cassette IO controller?

 

This will be the minimum signals I will be wiring. See attached file and let me know if any issues.

 

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[Joseph Travis]

That's good news Norberto!  I believe this is the best solution and will alleviate any issues.  If there is room on the board, you may want to place holes for a 6 pin header to accommodate a sparkfun FTDI breakout board which would allow the builder the choice of a USB connection or RS-232.  Yah, I know what you're thinking... we used to call it "creeping elegance".

As far as what to call it... H8-5NC or H8-5.1 or H8-5SBXVI or whatever you think is best to avoid confusion with the original H8-5.

I verified the schematic against the original H8-5.  Initially, I was concerned over DSR left floating until I saw that was exactly what was done on the original.

Regards,

Joe Travis n6ypc

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[Norby]

Thanks Joe for the feedback. I will add a pull-up to the DSR signal. For the USB connection you can buy in Amazon the DB9 to USB cable which works great. The connection to the board will be the 10 pin to DB9 cable suggested by Glenn. It has two of them. One for the console and second one to transfer H8T files.

Once done with the schematics I will send them out for review.

I will think more on the H8 cassette naming. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 16, 2022, at 12:53 PM, Joseph Travis <jtravi...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Joseph Travis]

I don't think it is necessary to add the pullup. The original H8-5 DSR input was left floating just like you had it.  Thanks again. Great job!

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sebhc/2AE02FB6-5588-425E-B083-9A89BD67E4A9%40koyado.com.

[norberto.collado koyado.com]

Thanks, and hopefully you can sleep better tonight! 🙂

---

From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Joseph Travis <jtravi...@gmail.com>

Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2022 1:56 PM

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sebhc/CAGQDgBC7Fm8FHRSksEPJRr2f%2BggNxyfT4QFsDRkneN3Hx7Yaqg%40mail.gmail.com.

[norberto...@koyado.com]

Schematics attached for review and board layout.

 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sebhc/SN6PR01MB3855FC97FDACF10838A2F5BCF7359%40SN6PR01MB3855.prod.exchangelabs.com.

[Glenn Roberts]

Nicely done. Thanks, as always, for all your hard work Norberto!

 

I still hope we can find a copy of the H88 version of the TapeOS!...  but at least with this mod (adding the second USART) we can run the original H8 version and the earliest Heath and HUG software…

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sebhc/015601d823d5%243348e0d0%2499daa270%24%40koyado.com.

[Joseph Travis]

Nice work!  Just two comments: 

(1) The date on the board is 10/31/2022 ?  

(2) The outputs of the 7805 regulators on the schematic, near JP19 and JP20 are labeled as +8V. Should be +5V or Vcc

Regards,

Joe Travis n6ypc

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[Norberto Collado]

Thanks Joe for the feedback! JP19 and JP20 are to bypass the 7805 regulators when using a +5V Power Supply instead of the +8V power source. The 7805 cannot regulate if input is +5V.

 

The date is my birthday date. 😊

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[Joseph Travis]

👍

The day before dia de los muertos?! 😁 That's great!  All the kids come over to celebrate!

Regards,

Joe Travis n6ypc

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sebhc/20610C78-4DFD-481F-AF48-06B77077073B%40koyado.com.

[Joseph Travis]

Just to satisfy my (and others) curiosity, I moved the baud rate jumpers on my H8-5 such that my console baud rate is at 9600 (so I don't have to keep changing it to 1200) and the tape baud rate is 4800 (not enough holes for 9600).  It works great!  Now I'm tempted to try 9600 for the tape...

Regards,

Joe Travis n6ypc

  

[Joseph Travis]

OK!  IT WORKS GREAT WITH CONSOLE AND TAPE BOTH AT 9600 BAUD!

[Glenn Roberts]

So this is for H8T (digital) file transfers right?  is this with your sparkfun breakout setup? care to try for 19.2 😊?

 

Have you timed file transfers? What rates are you seeing?  Must be quite fast.

 

From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Joseph Travis
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2022 4:07 PM
To: se...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [sebhc] Simple USB Serial to H8-5 Cassette Interface

 

OK!  IT WORKS GREAT WITH CONSOLE AND TAPE BOTH AT 9600 BAUD!

 

From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of norberto.collado koyado.com

From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Joseph Travis

.

I think you are loading a pre-configured tape already configured to the 8251A. Per Heath, the original/distribution tapes are not configured, so this might explain why it should work on port 350 for the 8250, but I'm not sure.

 

 

Norberto

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sebhc/CAGQDgBAqMOtVAn5o8RDoX9nOgX_Gxn42%3Du5nnF_j5QaOWnhdkA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Douglas Miller]

I would think the analog circuitry would probably not operate at 9600, with magnetic tape or digital-audio media. Of course, there would need to be a "standard" bitrate in order to distribute tapes that everyone could read.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sebhc/078401d82443%242b053540%24810f9fc0%24%40gmail.com.

[Joseph Travis]

Glenn,

Yes, using the sparkfun board and H8T files.  EXBASIC2.H8T is about 11K in size and takes less than 12 seconds to download!  I'll pass on 19.2K for the time being as my H8 CPU clock is only 2 MHz.  I'll leave that up to you!

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sebhc/078401d82443%242b053540%24810f9fc0%24%40gmail.com.

[Glenn Roberts]

Great. that’s what you’d expect I guess. about 960 bytes/sec.  speed is probably competitive with the early 100K H17!

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sebhc/CAGQDgBB7iTRzEbWQScK_sLWp3o46EntZVqaJc83kzxKVORG26Q%40mail.gmail.com.

[Glenn Roberts]

Yes. to be clear Joe is playing with the digital downloading (.H8T) files, not audio. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sebhc/dc030d34-ba78-d89b-8f7b-982d5a65d929%40gmail.com.

[Joseph Travis]

It seems to be much faster than the H17.  There's no OS overhead or delays for motor on, head load, seek, etc.  It's also noticebly quieter than the H17!

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sebhc/079701d82449%24878a7400%24969f5c00%24%40gmail.com.

[norberto.collado koyado.com]

Great! Now I need a backup application for HDOS and CP/M. I think Heath saw the cassette as a great backup device as it is well documented for that purpose. Also, it is very reliable, better than a floppy drive. 

Have someone calculated how much data can a 90-minute cassette hold?  For H8T format file transfers it doesn't matter. 

Norberto

---

From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Joseph Travis <jtravi...@gmail.com>

Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2022 2:41 PM

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[Douglas Miller]

Was this backup facility using manual setup for each file? Or was there some "tar"-like (whole sets of files) application/protocol being used? I forget if the Heath Tape format includes any sort of "file name" field. I know it includes a load address (and run address?).

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sebhc/SN6PR01MB38555708E74C7B1F3DDD9650F7369%40SN6PR01MB3855.prod.exchangelabs.com.

[Glenn Roberts]

Individual files only.  Hence Norberto’s suggestion of a backup utility…

 

First step would be to see what was already done in this area (40 years ago!)

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sebhc/ce8bba14-04aa-17a0-9bea-299557be9a4f%40gmail.com.

[Douglas Miller]

So we'd need to extend the Heath Tape record format to include file info (name, possibly attributes, ...)

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sebhc/07bd01d82453%2442242460%24c66c6d20%24%40gmail.com.

[Douglas Miller]

Not counting record/file gaps (which are significant), you could get 648000 bytes at 1200 baud in 90 minutes. I would guess that adding in the overhead, you're probably down to about the capacity of a floppy disk. And, that much data is going to take 90 minutes to write or read.

I'm skeptical of it being more reliable. Yes, the 1200-baud audio-modulated recording is perhaps less susceptible to corruption, but you also can't retry reads or verify writes - at least not the way you can on a floppy. For nostalgia purposes, it would be interesting.

For a practical backup system, we might implore Glenn to add a VBACKUP/VRESTORE set of utilities to his VDIP suite. Although, I guess VPIP probably suffices (could add use of the CP/M "archive" bit to optimize it for backup purposes, like the original PIP did). Perhaps even a VTAR utility, although compression would probably not be practical (e.g. put a "tarball" file on a USB drive, and unpack it into files on CP/M directly).

On 2/17/22 4:50 PM, norberto.collado koyado.com wrote:

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[Glenn Roberts]

I think the value proposition for Norberto’s new board is:

 

1. rescue and restoration: the ability to read and digitize content of old tapes as we find them. with each passing year this gets harder.

2. reliability: with the newer design the board should provide more reliable I/o with a tape or audio device than the original H8-5 design.

3. minimalism: for someone who doesn’t want to put a lot of money/effort into their system but wants to be able to load/play games

4. demonstration: ability to give demos with a minimal set of equipment. Load and Save programs with just the front keypad.

5. nostalgia: revisit the “early days” and show/play some of the early games and software for the H8.

6. old & new: using the digital (RS232) I/O capability connect to a PC or other device (e.g., raspberry Pi) to load and save programs.

 

I probably wouldn’t list backup here only because there are so many better options.  I certainly don’t see tape as a reliable way to back up when we have access to much faster and more reliable approaches. VPIP and a memory stick, as Douglas mentions, for example.  But it would be an interesting development activity so worth more discussion.

 

I’m mostly interested in “old & new”. Like the Eric Ackerman video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC2BOBhqork

 

He used an Arduino and a laptop with the H8-5 but I imagine a self-contained “digital tape recorder” that would function much like the early tape drives, but be way faster (see Joe’s latest speed data), more reliable, have much higher capacity, and have a cool touch screen interface to a library of software.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sebhc/1adb330c-74f6-0d8f-3e11-dc23dbaa9754%40gmail.com.

[Glenn Roberts]

How come this worked so fast, given the previous discussion?....

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[Joseph Travis]

REMINDER - To anyone planning to use the Sparkfun FTDI USB-Serial breakout board with the 8251 on the H8-5:

There are solder pad jumpers on the bottom of the board which selects the interface voltage, either 3.3V or 5V.  Please make sure that 5V operation is selected prior to attaching the board to the 8251 !

Regards,

Joe Travis n6ypc

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sebhc/010201d824d1%24d710b1f0%24853215d0%24%40gmail.com.

[Glenn Roberts]

Good find!  Indeed the later versions seem to have an updated console driver that knows about the old (8251) and the new (8250)!.  Another piece of the puzzle….  I’ll take a look further…

 

.

I think you are loading a pre-configured tape already configured to the 8251A. Per Heath, the original/distribution tapes are not configured, so this might explain why it should work on port 350 for the 8250, but I'm not sure.

 

[Mike Ladwig]

> nostalgia: revisit the “early days” and show/play some of the early games and software for the H8.

I'm not done yet, but wanted to show my in-progress project with a different approach. Looks/works just like a cassette player but with audio files coming from a sd card.

[Norberto Collado]

This is very nice!

 

Norberto

 

From: "se...@googlegroups.com" <se...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Mike Ladwig <mdla...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: "se...@googlegroups.com" <se...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Friday, February 18, 2022 at 7:23 PM
To: "se...@googlegroups.com" <se...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [sebhc] Simple USB Serial to H8-5 Cassette Interface

 

> nostalgia: revisit the “early days” and show/play some of the early games and software for the H8.

 

I'm not done yet, but wanted to show my in-progress project with a different approach. Looks/works just like a cassette player but with audio files coming from a sd card.

 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sebhc/9878c892-d47f-4a26-bbf4-2273a7e30530n%40googlegroups.com.

[Glenn Roberts]

Nice!

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 18, 2022, at 10:23 PM, Mike Ladwig <mdla...@gmail.com> wrote:

> nostalgia: revisit the “early days” and show/play some of the early games and software for the H8.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sebhc/9878c892-d47f-4a26-bbf4-2273a7e30530n%40googlegroups.com.

[Norberto Collado]

Interesting article!

 

https://hackaday.com/2016/10/22/making-a-cassette-mass-storage-interface/

 

Norberto

 

From: "se...@googlegroups.com" <se...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Glenn Roberts <glenn.f...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: "se...@googlegroups.com" <se...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Friday, February 18, 2022 at 11:10 PM
To: "se...@googlegroups.com" <se...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [sebhc] Simple USB Serial to H8-5 Cassette Interface

 

Nice!

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 18, 2022, at 10:23 PM, Mike Ladwig <mdla...@gmail.com> wrote:

> nostalgia: revisit the “early days” and show/play some of the early games and software for the H8.

 

I'm not done yet, but wanted to show my in-progress project with a different approach. Looks/works just like a cassette player but with audio files coming from a sd card.

 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sebhc/0C47778E-8F2B-4464-B09A-FCC44ECC7C6D%40gmail.com.

[pbi...@gmail.com]

For SFF (small form factor :->) see: https://www.sites.google.com/site/tedrossin/home/electronics/pic#h.atweos91tg81

 

From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Norberto Collado
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2022 2:36 AM
To: se...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [sebhc] Simple USB Serial to H8-5 Cassette Interface

 

Interesting article!

 

https://hackaday.com/2016/10/22/making-a-cassette-mass-storage-interface/

 

Norberto

 

<SNIP>

[Douglas Miller]

Where are the rotating spools of the virtual cassette cartridge? ;-)

Very cool.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sebhc/9878c892-d47f-4a26-bbf4-2273a7e30530n%40googlegroups.com.

[Glenn Roberts]

By way of closure, Joe discovered that the later versions (e.g. Rev 6) of the “Tape OS” tools have a console driver that is smart enough to work with either the H8-5 (8251 USART) or H8-4/H89 (8250 UART) style console.  This is good news as it should mean no issue loading/running legacy programs with the new H8-5 board that Norberto is working on…  I’ve done a little probing/disassembling of the driver but nothing to share here yet.  David Troendle has scans of the old Tape OS source code (which, if they include this driver, may shed more light on this) but he’s in the process of moving so he’ll hopefully be able to find these at some future date when things are more settled…

 

.

I think you are loading a pre-configured tape already configured to the 8251A. Per Heath, the original/distribution tapes are not configured, so this might explain why it should work on port 350 for the 8250, but I'm not sure.

 

[norberto...@koyado.com]

Great information!

 

Norberto

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sebhc/05c301d82987%2487c889a0%2497599ce0%24%40gmail.com.

[Joseph Travis]

I don't believe it was either / or.  I believe it was exclusive, H8-5 for the early versions and the H8-4 for the later. Unfortunately, I'm unable to verify as I'm away from home for several days.

Regards,

Joe Travis n6ypc

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sebhc/009c01d8299c%2498b6bf60%24ca243e20%24%40koyado.com.

[glenn.f...@gmail.com]

So here’s what I tried:

 

Configuration:  8080 CPU; 32K RAM (Norberto’s battery-backed board); H8-5 w/ Astrorat daughterboard connected to PC running RealTerm @1200 BAUD; H19 set for 1200 BAUD connected to H8-5 console port w/ IRQ 3.

 

I was able to load and run TED8-6.H8T and EXBASIC6.H8T.  after a few hits on the spacebar the programs come right up.

 

I then inserted the H8-4 board with console at 350Q/IRQ3. The other boards were left as is.

 

I then loaded and ran TED8-6.H8T and EXBASIC6.H8T, this time with the H19 connected to the console port on the H8-4.  I kept the H19 speed at 1200 and, with a few presses of the space bar the programs came right up.  I then reset the H19 to 9600 BAUD and reloaded TED8-6.H8T and after a few space bar hits it came up fine.

 

I also tried connecting the H19 back to the H8-5 console port while the H8-4 board was installed.  I was not able to get a response out of the console in this configuration, i.e. if there’s an H8-4 (8250 UART) in the system the console driver will prioritize it over the H8-5.

 

My conclusion (which is supported by what I’m seeing in the driver code):  the Version 6 Tape-OS utilities (available in .H8T format on the github archive https://sebhc.github.io/sebhc/software.html#Cassette_Tape_Images)  support both consoles (H8-5 style with 8251 USART at 372/IRQ3 or H8-4/H89 style with 8250 UART at 350/IRQ3).  However if the system has *both* interfaces configured the software will assume the console is on the 8250 side.  This all makes sense to me… 

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[Joseph Travis]

Very good Glenn. Thank you for the confirmation.  Although I'm a little surprised about the need to hit the space bar for the H8-5 as the baud rate is determined by hardware vs. software for the H8-4. I didn't run TED, just EXBASIC and it would display the initial signon message after pressing GO on the H8 keypad.  I would then press RETURN a couple times to get the * prompt.

Regards,

Joe Travis n6ypc

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sebhc/035101d82a51%246efbe870%244cf3b950%24%40gmail.com.

[Glenn Roberts]

Maybe RETURN would have worked too.  I just was hitting SPACE.  Dunno…

.

I think you are loading a pre-configured tape already configured to the 8251A. Per Heath, the original/distribution tapes are not configured, so this might explain why it should work on port 350 for the 8250, but I'm not sure.

 

 

Norberto

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sebhc/CAGQDgBDQ%2B_Wn7-qeFFDmtrOFYWb_uqe8yj38tAa4_NHuvpqM7Q%40mail.gmail.com.

[norberto.collado koyado.com]

Thank you for testing this out. So, the new board should work with either port. 

I will check if I can make space to add an 8250 UART to the same board, so that you can have both UART/USART on same board design, to avoid using the H8-4 board when using Heath CPU boards. I think this is a better design.

Norberto

---

From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Glenn Roberts <glenn.f...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2022 6:32 AM
To: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com>

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sebhc/007301d82a54%2490672d50%24b13587f0%24%40gmail.com.

[norberto.collado koyado.com]

After a quick review of the layout, I found that I can delete 2-IC's which allows me to add a 40-pin socket for the 8250. As I can have only one RS-232 IC, I will try add jumpers to select between 8250/8251 coms. Hopefully  that will work.  

---

From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of norberto.collado koyado.com <norberto...@koyado.com>
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2022 11:01 AM

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sebhc/SN6PR01MB385576F8F9A40778CAEA58E7F73E9%40SN6PR01MB3855.prod.exchangelabs.com.

[glenn.f...@gmail.com]

I guess we could call it the H8-4.5 board!?

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sebhc/SN6PR01MB38558690D1062C0BA569D461F73E9%40SN6PR01MB3855.prod.exchangelabs.com.

[norberto...@koyado.com]

Thanks for your inputs. I will call it “H8-Z5-4” instead. This board has the best of the H89-5 cassette interface and the best from the H8-5 cassette interface + H8-4 console + additional improvements.

 

I was able to squeeze in the 8250/16C550 circuit after the fact.  Attached are latest diagrams and pcb components view.

 

The 8250 and 8251 has their own 10 pin DB9 connector. There are three on the board:

1. H8T cassette interface – high speed data transfer interface. Baud rate from 1200, 2400, 4800, 9600, and 19200 bps (default: 1200bps), jumper selected. Note: Changing H8T baud rate higher than default, it will change cassette baud to same speed.
2. 8250 console – Auto baud rate after pressing the space bar on the H19 terminal.
3. 8251 console - Baud rate from 1200, 2400, 4800, 9600, and 19200 bps, jumper selected.

 

Cassette baud rate is 1200bps by default.

 

 

As I’m limited by the MAX232 IC pins, I decided to use transistors only for the control signals.

 

Thanks,

Norberto

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sebhc/009501d82a95%247e4f9cb0%247aeed610%24%40gmail.com.