Baby stay deck to hull stay

[Jay]

I am nearly complete with the the process of replacing the standing and running rigging on #58.  The existing setup for the baby stay had a wire rope connected from the underside of deck eye to to an eye bolt on the flexy plywood V-birth panel.  It does not have a block glassed onto the hull for the lower connection like I have seen on pictures of other SC27s.

May I have some recommendations for best fix for my boat's below deck baby stay reinforcement?  I plan on racing offshore, so I want to prevent the storied mast inversion pumping and eventual mast breakage.  Also, it seems like a solid baby stay connection would stiffen the whole boat and make it faster.

If the glassed-in block to the hull is the way to go.  What size is the block?  It's difficult to judge by the pictures I have seen.

Would it be worth tabbing in a plywood bulkhead below the V-berth panel and between the stringers for the connection?

Is just a connection to the deck without significant reinforcement from below deck, like previously setup, okay?

Any other good ways to reinforce the deck connection?

This forum's archives have been very helpful for this SC27 rebuild, repair and setup project.  Many thanks to all the contributors.  Going on a two year project.  I haven't sailed her yet.  I'm super stoked, she is almost ready! 

Jay

Yellow Jack

[Rick Raduziner]

Hellow Jay,  Lickety Split removed the baby stay for buoy racing and for the SF Bay.  However, we still have the rigging below the deck. If we were to get it set up again, I would use a G10 plate underneath the deck to spread the load.   I'm not a rigger and am definitely interested in what others have to say.  

Rick 

Lickety Split #76

[Greg Miller]

Yes – Your correct – Its storied. The mast  (both the Sparcraft and ballanger never pumped as originally thought. Load up your backstay and leave it off all together.

 

Greg

 

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[Stephanie Campbell]

I'm a big proponent of the babystay.  I have an eyebolt tabbed into the hull, and eyebolts that sandwich the deck above it, and then wire rigging with an adjustable turnbuckle between the hull and the deck so that it's tight enough that you don't pull up on the deck.  There is a fast pin when you want the space to be open (for the below deck configuration).  I had a Sparcraft that snapped, and now I have a Ballenger, and mine definitely pumps in wind and waves and can invert without the babystay.

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_/)__Stephanie

[Jay]

Thank you all for the input.  

Stephanie, Andy?  We met at Brickyard Cove dry storage last year.  My SC27 is yellow, on a very rusty trailer.  Would you please share the approximate footprint size of the tabbed in eye bolt mount?  Should I be concerned with stress concentration on the inner fiberglass layer?  Is the hull cored on the center line where the eye is located?  My new baby stay is about 5/32" 1X19 wire.  Would you suggest the same size/type wire below deck?  

Thank you,

Jay

[Stephanie Campbell]

I can send pics later today or tomorrow, but yah, ask Andy! He’s the rigger 😁. And probably still in this group. I did just rebuild the deck around the foredeck hatch this winter and was happy to see that the baby stay area was still solid. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sc27nca/c8c0cdcf-7b18-4de8-b5fa-bb513132176cn%40googlegroups.com.

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_/)__Stephanie

[call...@gmail.com]

There is a plywood stringer about 3-4 inches wide and runs the centerline all the way to the tip of the bow (my boat does not have a bow hatch). This is high quality, possibly marine grade, plywood. The baby stay eye goes through this plywood. A G10 plate underneath is nice to have but mine has been okay without it. The load is transferred to the adjustable turnbuckle between the hull and deck. I used dyneema with two eye splices and a turnbuckle with a quick release pin. The dyneema is doesn't rust. My cable rusted out where it was attached to the hull after a few decades. Make sure to pre-stretch the dyneema before splicing. I think the rigger told me 1 inch per foot of stretch. 

James

86'd

[Greg Miller]

Hi All- I was intrigued by what Stephanie said about the mast inversion and pumping as I have never witnessed this condition. I called Buzz Ballenger to have a discussion about masts and the baby stay.

 

The bottom line is that if your mast is inverting or even close to inverting it’s because the mast is not set up correctly.

 

The early boats had spreaders that were a straight 90 degrees off the centerline of the boat and the front/back of the mast. (a straight line) The distal end of the spreaders were designed to be directly on top of the chain plates that attach to the internal bulkhead. Buzz mentioned that the original design 40 plus years ago allowed for little to no rake in the mast as per design of the boat (all knowing who that was). I believe that Bill L. implemented this baby stay option on almost all of the early designs. The load was delivered directly to the keelbar and not to the deck!

 

Over time most sailors have included some sort of rake which changes the formula to some degree.

 

Most recent masts, and certainly ones built by Ballenger have a 5% aft position of the spreaders off the centerline. Per his recommendation and as of years ago I set up Jersey Girl  to an 8% rake in the spreaders. Sounds like a small adjustment I know but fairly significant in terms of shaping the mast.

 

The other significant factor is the base of the mast. Simply throwing a good looking rake into the mast may work against the desired result. The goal is to select the rake that you feel is best for the boat and in a relaxed position… The forward part of the mast should accommodate a nickel of gap at the forward part of the mast to the step.

 

Upon sailing… When the mast is loaded properly and the back stay is on correctly and the spreaders are rotated properly aft the mast will take a perfect arch forwardly.  Thus eliminating both pumping and inversion.

 

Also worth noting… The bending moment, fore and aft for both the SparCraft and Ballenger mast is exactly the same. Not sure left to right!

 

The Ballenger spar in my view, is stiffer and lighter and of a different alloy of the spar craft. I loaded my Ballenger mast with 16 bags of 60 lb. sand bags (that’s over 900lbs) near the spreaders to create a controlled prebend. It did absolutely nothing!

 

All that being said all boats are different and to support Stephanie’s comments… there may be some value in a baby stay to minimize movement but it may be a bit more likely to see benefit in the shape of main sail while working to weather.

 

Thanks,

Greg

 

_/)__Stephanie

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[Stephanie Campbell]

Thank you for the detailed response. I am intrigued as well! I can say that my (far less scientific) experience is that my boat seems happier when I’m in wind and waves and I’m using the babystay. I’ll have to take a closer look at my rig set up to discover why that’s true. I took some pics when I was at the boat tonight if there’s any interest in a configuration that seems to work for me. The babystay is dyneema and I use the downhaul through the block on deck for tension. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sc27nca/020901d98859%24b75ecad0%24261c6070%24%40dynamicdemo.net.

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_/)__Stephanie

[Tim Daniel]

Interesting that the hatch is so far forward.  We put ours between the babystay fitting and the front window, within a couple of inches of the window.  Your babystay fitting appears to be angled to match the angle of the stay, I think - ours goes straight up to the deck from the panel glued to the hull.  The plywood stringer in the foredeck can take the shear load.  

We had to dig out all the plywood and replace it as it was rotten on our boat, as was the core beside the plywood.  The babystay eye fitting on the deck had leaked for a long time.  If you are putting a fitting in there, make sure you drill it oversize, fill it with epoxy and re-drill.

Our boat came with the fittings, but not the babystay itself.  Our PO's claimed they sailed Swiftsure in big waves and breeze and had no pumping issues.  We haven't had the boat out in those conditions yet, so have no way to confirm it.  If we run across pumping issues we'll rig the system up again.

Tim

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From: sc2...@googlegroups.com <sc2...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Stephanie Campbell <schwe...@gmail.com>
Sent: May 16, 2023 7:59 PM
To: sc2...@googlegroups.com <sc2...@googlegroups.com>

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