Pulsar possibility

[Job Geheniau]

Hi all,

Just short question with my own answer :-)

What are the possibilities to receive a pulsar signal with an 1.9 meter dish which can track a radio source with its rotator.

My thoughts about it: none

Correct? If not, how to start, what frequency, what lna's so what hardware and what software

Job Geheniau

[Timothy Bateman]

If you can reach the Vela pulsar at dec -45 degrees it is definitely possible with a static 1.8m dish at 835 MHz and ~30 MHz. Lower frequency should be easier due to spectral index.

Small dishes have 15 degree beam widths at ~800 MHz so it gives an hour in the beam. Can't comment on the strong northern pulsars ....

--
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Society of Amateur Radio Astronomers" group.
To post to this group, send email to sara...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
sara-list-...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/sara-list?hl=en
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Society of Amateur Radio Astronomers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sara-list+...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sara-list/3894d0ab-3ae4-4390-a169-611a4c9af4edn%40googlegroups.com.

[Marcus D. Leech]

You may find this website useful:

https://sites.google.com/view/hawkrao/neutron-star-group/challenges-for-amateur-pulsar-detection

[Marcus D. Leech]

On 2021-10-11 10:43 a.m., Job Geheniau wrote:

The brightest Northern Hemisphere pulsar is B0329+54 (J0332+5434), which
produces roughly 1.5Jy at low UHF frequencies.

This website may be of some help:

https://sites.google.com/view/hawkrao/pulsar-observations

[eddiem...@gmail.com]

Hi Job,

I have no experience with detecting pulsars, but here is my two cents:

There is a list of amateur pulsar detections and some other interesting info on this subject on Steve Olney’s website (https://sites.google.com/view/hawkrao/neutron-star-group/amateur-pulsar-hunters). From this list it appears that 3 metres is about the minimum dish size for a successful detection at 1400 MHz. The pulsars are brighter at longer wavelengths, therefore many of the detections have been done at around 70 cm (408MHz). However, your 1.5 metre dish is probably very inefficient at 70 cm because the dish is quite small compared to the wavelength. So I do not think it is possible. 

Best regards,

Eduard 

Op 11 okt. 2021 om 16:43 heeft Job Geheniau <jobge...@gmail.com> het volgende geschreven:

Hi all,

--

[Lester Veenstra]

But a 409  MHz is possible to build a quad array of long Yagi without too much difficulty

 

http://www.bambi.net/sara/AntDesg.pdf

 

http://www.mtmscientific.com/yagi.pdf

 

 

Lester B Veenstra  K1YCM  MØYCM  W8YCM   6Y6Y

les...@veenstras.com

 

452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)

Keyser WV 26726

 

GPS: 39.336826 N  78.982287 W (Google)

GPS: 39.33682 N  78.9823741 W (GPSDO)

 

 

Telephones:

Home:                     +1-304-289-6057

US cell                    +1-304-790-9192

Jamaica cell:           +1-876-456-8898

 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sara-list/DEC40B8E-5E29-4999-8510-1D1E8995F7D1%40gmail.com.

[eddiem...@gmail.com]

True but Job’s question was whether he could detect a pulsar with his 1.9 metre dish

Op 13 okt. 2021 om 20:57 heeft 'Lester Veenstra' via Society of Amateur Radio Astronomers <sara...@googlegroups.com> het volgende geschreven:



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sara-list/02c101d7c064%2439de94f0%24ad9bbed0%24%40com.

[Job Geheniau]

Hi Eduard,

I have the same conclusions. 3 or 3.5 meter is minimum.

Job

Op 13 okt. 2021 om 20:59 heeft eddiem...@gmail.com het volgende geschreven:



You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "Society of Amateur Radio Astronomers" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/sara-list/AZW1thwFz40/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to sara-list+...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sara-list/FBDA8C41-5362-4C91-8A37-6AC6C6AD6C76%40gmail.com.

[Mario I0NAA]

The program Murmur, available from my web site http://i0naa.altervista.org/ , is designed to help in understanding if a receiving system is potentially able to detect Pulsar. 

Murmur, that comes with an embedded visual-manual, performs many other functions that allow tune up of all receiving system.

You can download for free from the download section.

Mario, I0NAA

Inviato da iPhone

Il giorno 13 ott 2021, alle ore 20:59, eddiem...@gmail.com ha scritto:



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sara-list/FBDA8C41-5362-4C91-8A37-6AC6C6AD6C76%40gmail.com.

[Job Geheniau]

I know murmur, but too many variables

Op 13 okt. 2021 om 21:17 heeft Mario I0NAA <mario...@gmail.com> het volgende geschreven:

The program Murmur, available from my web site http://i0naa.altervista.org/ , is designed to help in understanding if a receiving system is potentially able to detect Pulsar. 

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "Society of Amateur Radio Astronomers" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/sara-list/AZW1thwFz40/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to sara-list+...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sara-list/90B1554D-ACD1-40FB-ACD1-7ABDFAB1BCFC%40gmail.com.

[Anthony]

This may be a dumb question, but why can't amateur radio astronomers, just do what the professionals do, link up those with radio astronomy antennas & receiver systems to form a large VLA?

Is it the math, lack of experience, the needed coordination and time among SARA members?

My question isn't just targeted at you, Job, this is to all in SARA, who are reading this email thread and are very experienced in RAS.

Looking for a reason as to why not?

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sara-list/4100CC34-06CD-4169-B5E9-A23C98A96E20%40gmail.com.

[Marcus D. Leech]

On 2021-10-13 7:15 p.m., Anthony wrote:

This may be a dumb question, but why can't amateur radio astronomers, just do what the professionals do, link up those with radio astronomy antennas & receiver systems to form a large VLA?

Is it the math, lack of experience, the needed coordination and time among SARA members?

My question isn't just targeted at you, Job, this is to all in SARA, who are reading this email thread and are very experienced in RAS.

Looking for a reason as to why not?

Quite apart from the non-trivial *technical* issues, there are the social issues of coordinating a bunch of folks who are largely "doing their own thing".

VLBI is non-trivial to make work from a technical perspective--this translates into $$ and lots of time making things work.

[Anthony]

Ah, Marcus!

I knew you would answer, thank you!

:-D 

So, why don't we all think about it, no need to say yes or no right now, and perhaps maybe meet to plan out a solution (innovative), not requiring so much technical debt and economic resources maybe? 

But, of course, over some time to gather RA business, technical and security requirements, because we are all very busy. 

We could attempt this as a SARA member project. Wouldn't such an attempt catch RAS media attention, possibly intrigue some professionals to help, or be amused at such an attempt? Not to mention, it could motivate not just SARA members but others (donors or investors and new SARA members) who have a real fascination with Amateur Radio Astronomy. Especially since this hobby for the inexperienced as myself, is challenging (technical skills-wise) and for the citizen scientist, monetary-wise. 

Remember when we were children or younger, we would try things without even giving much thought to the challenges, and not even paying much mind to those who would say, "Hey, you can't do that or no it can't be done". 

But as time goes on, the word NO has become ingrained in so many of us, our thoughts, subconscious, everyday thinking, and it's very easy for us to talk ourselves out of what could be! 

That's my experience in life! I remember a quote, I saw, "When someone tells me no, it doesn't mean I can't do it, it simply means I can't do it with them"

Karen E. Quinones Miller

https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/107837.Karen_E_Quinones_Miller

Give it some thoughts, what Job Geheniau is doing,  I find very intriguing and will do so, very soon, despite any math or technical challenges! 

  I've said too much as usual. 

:-D  

--
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Society of Amateur Radio Astronomers" group.
To post to this group, send email to sara...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
sara-list-...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/sara-list?hl=en
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Society of Amateur Radio Astronomers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sara-list+...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sara-list/db342729-b71c-3365-f9db-dc03c2a1e9b7%40gmail.com.

[Marcus D. Leech]

On 2021-10-13 7:56 p.m., Anthony wrote:

Ah, Marcus!

I knew you would answer, thank you!

:-D 

So, why don't we all think about it, no need to say yes or no right now, and perhaps maybe meet to plan out a solution (innovative), not requiring so much technical debt and economic resources maybe? 

But, of course, over some time to gather RA business, technical and security requirements, because we are all very busy. 

We could attempt this as a SARA member project. Wouldn't such an attempt catch RAS media attention, possibly intrigue some professionals to help, or be amused at such an attempt? Not to mention, it could motivate not just SARA members but others (donors or investors and new SARA members) who have a real fascination with Amateur Radio Astronomy. Especially since this hobby for the inexperienced as myself, is challenging (technical skills-wise) and for the citizen scientist, monetary-wise. 

Remember when we were children or younger, we would try things without even giving much thought to the challenges, and not even paying much mind to those who would say, "Hey, you can't do that or no it can't be done". 

But as time goes on, the word NO has become ingrained in so many of us, our thoughts, subconscious, everyday thinking, and it's very easy for us to talk ourselves out of what could be! 

That's my experience in life! I remember a quote, I saw, "When someone tells me no, it doesn't mean I can't do it, it simply means I can't do it with them"

Karen E. Quinones Miller

https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/107837.Karen_E_Quinones_Miller

Give it some thoughts, what Job Geheniau is doing,  I find very intriguing and will do so, very soon, despite any math or technical challenges! 

  I've said too much as usual. 

:-D  

There ARE projects that are less technically demanding and require only "loose" coordination.  I wrote about one I proposed a couple of years ago:

http://www.ccera.ca/files/memos/ccera-memo-0009.pdf

Got very little traction.

It distinguishes itself in a few  important ways:

   (1) The end result could produce results that are scientifically interesting and potentially novel
   (2) Because everyone is pointing at the NCP, large numbers of stations could be looking at the same piece of sky 24/7 -- no tracking
         required.
   (3) No real-time data-sharing requirement.
   (4) Antenna requirements are modest, and not everyone needs exactly the same antenna

[fasleitung3]

I remember having read this at the time when you published it. Sounds interesting to me, but the social aspect you mentioned is probably the biggest hurdle.

Wolfgang

[Anthony]

On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 9:34 PM Marcus D. Leech <patchv...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 2021-10-13 7:56 p.m., Anthony wrote:

 

I read read about your proposal, partially on your Canadian Centre for Experimental Radio Astronomy, website last week. My very reasons for inquiring about your surplus 5.5 M dish antenna. Because of reading about the Deuterium survey project and your "Unfortunate confluence of both corporate and municipal politics at Smith Falls".   

 

Did a little research on several Deuterium experiements and it looked like the issues were with the location of the antennas & receivers, they needed to be in locations with very, very  low RFI. operating at 327 MHz to obtain 92 cm D1 detection.

 

The common issue seemed to be around RFI at 327 MHz and tediously identifying all of the interference noise sources. Some of the articles I read, touched on search locations at the Galactic center, along with the Galactic anti-center, but the background temps of  ~500K dominated the receiver temperature. 

 

 This meant, multiple beams (some experiments using eight antennas) and maybe longer integration time is required in order to obtain a significant detection of D1 at 92 cm, deuterium spin-flip transition. No wonder you stated 24x7, for two years!   Some of these articles are dated 2004, 2005, and 2008. Not sure if there are any other experiments that were conducted and it didn't look like these experiments back then were100% sure of the detection D1, I may be wrong?
 Guess any members interested, would require a location with very little RFI, bandpass filters in the range of 327 -600 MHz, centered on 327 MHz, a good amount of antennas (between at least 6 - 10 SARA members), and lots of our antenna time dedicated to conduct the IDEA experiment.

  

I wish other members were interested, this looks like a significant project that could yeild rewards! 
But we all have our own interest in this hobby, and the social problem as you and Wolfgang brought out, I guess.

   

   Some of my research sources. 

   http://www.ccera.ca/papers/memo-9-the-idea-experiment-amateurs-looking-for-d1/ (Marcus)

   https://www.haystack.mit.edu/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/memo_deuterium_068.pdf 

   https://www.haystack.mit.edu/haystack-memo-series/deuterium-array-memos/

   https://www.seti.org/sites/default/files/ATA-memo-series/memo63.pdf

   https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1086/466524

   https://web.williams.edu/Astronomy/research/deuterium/PDFs/PasachoffFowler.pdf

There ARE projects that are less technically demanding and require only "loose" coordination.  I wrote about one I proposed a couple of years ago:

http://www.ccera.ca/files/memos/ccera-memo-0009.pdf

Got very little traction.

It distinguishes itself in a few  important ways:

   (1) The end result could produce results that are scientifically interesting and potentially novel
   (2) Because everyone is pointing at the NCP, large numbers of stations could be looking at the same piece of sky 24/7 -- no tracking
         required.
   (3) No real-time data-sharing requirement.
   (4) Antenna requirements are modest, and not everyone needs exactly the same antenna

--
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Society of Amateur Radio Astronomers" group.
To post to this group, send email to sara...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
sara-list-...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/sara-list?hl=en
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Society of Amateur Radio Astronomers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sara-list+...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sara-list/16f1baea-5f80-5f5a-355e-d20d90bbbdef%40gmail.com.

[Marcus D. Leech]

On 2021-10-16 3:06 p.m., Anthony wrote:

On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 9:34 PM Marcus D. Leech <patchv...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 2021-10-13 7:56 p.m., Anthony wrote:

 

I read read about your proposal, partially on your Canadian Centre for Experimental Radio Astronomy, website last week. My very reasons for inquiring about your surplus 5.5 M dish antenna. Because of reading about the Deuterium survey project and your "Unfortunate confluence of both corporate and municipal politics at Smith Falls".   

 

Did a little research on several Deuterium experiements and it looked like the issues were with the location of the antennas & receivers, they needed to be in locations with very, very  low RFI. operating at 327 MHz to obtain 92 cm D1 detection.

I'm hoping that we'll have that situation at the Rideau Ferry site, and I'm consing up a smaller version for placement in the wilds of Maberly, Ontario.

 

The common issue seemed to be around RFI at 327 MHz and tediously identifying all of the interference noise sources. Some of the articles I read, touched on search locations at the Galactic center, along with the Galactic anti-center, but the background temps of  ~500K dominated the receiver temperature.

The NCP pointing has the desirable property that the sky simply rotates centered on your FOV--so no active pointing required.   It's a bit quieter there as well,
  so D1, if it's there, should "stand out" more from the background goop.

 

 This meant, multiple beams (some experiments using eight antennas) and maybe longer integration time is required in order to obtain a significant detection of D1 at 92 cm, deuterium spin-flip transition. No wonder you stated 24x7, for two years!   Some of these articles are dated 2004, 2005, and 2008. Not sure if there are any other experiments that were conducted and it didn't look like these experiments back then were100% sure of the detection D1, I may be wrong?
 Guess any members interested, would require a location with very little RFI, bandpass filters in the range of 327 -600 MHz, centered on 327 MHz, a good amount of antennas (between at least 6 - 10 SARA members), and lots of our antenna time dedicated to conduct the IDEA experiment.

Haystack did a lot of work on this a few years back, which is partially what motivated the IDEA proposal.  They had multiple antennas, but those antennas were not
  mutually-coherent with one another, so they were simply relying on the same kind of statistical SNR improvement approach that is proposed in IDEA.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sara-list/CAKU65TzQYODjU5GgPCw2d5GnkO_WM9%2BXRgUMQekCV8QbKjxoNw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Anthony]

That is good, I like to help in any way I can, if or when you start back with the IDEA project. I can dedicate my antennas for observations. But I do have some RFI, even though my house is on a higher elevation (hill) than the surrounding houses. I look down the valley. :-D

The Haystack project in my opinion was painstaking! Asking MIT residence to turn down the noise, replacing parts in electronics, and tediously isolating RFI, that's determination & dedication!  

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sara-list/6d782e67-5acf-ff7e-171f-0bea81c30454%40gmail.com.