ॠ

[Shreyas Munshi]

Respected scholars in the group,

About ऋ, the seventh vowel in Sanskrit VarNamala. Longuists define it as a retroflex approximant, a consonant. What is  then the justification in still including it the list of vowels when we are not able to produce this sound as a vowel like we are able to produce the vowel sounds अ आ इ उ etc.

Is definition of vowel different in Sanskrit?

[ken p]

Here are some links.

https://hi.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%8B

https://bharatdiscovery.org/india/%E0%A4%8B

https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/hindi-%E0%A4%8B-not-pronunced-as-%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%BF.2362285/

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Sanskrit_Grammar_(Whitney)/Chapter_II

https://blog.practicalsanskrit.com/2010/03/meet-alphabet-letters-and-vowels-ri-and.html

[ken p]

 Pronunciation of obscure vowels ऋ, ॠ, ऌ and ॡ.

https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/sanskrit-pronunciation-of-obscure-vowels-%E0%A4%8B-%E0%A5%A0-%E0%A4%8C-and-%E0%A5%A1.2878583/

https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/9783111653211.64/html

[FOR DUST THOU ART]

It's a rough thing to explain in modern terms, Shreyas, because there is a different conditioning around what constitutes a "sound", that is to say, a "vowel".  As you probably already know, the order of the vowels in Sanskrit has long ago been defined by the order from the back of the vocal apparatus (i.e., the back of the throat) towards the front.  Try sounding out the long "u", the " ऋ " as a trill formed with the lips partly open, and then the "e" - you'll find that the "e" is formed just by opening the lips a little bit more.  What this all means is that ऋ is a trill, which was obviously considered a sound - a vowel - by itself at the time that Sanskrit was first recorded in writing.  Once again, reciters of Sanskrit of a more recent day (centuries, maybe? --- who knows how long the tendency has been around?) have difficulty with pronouncing a trill as a sound by itself, and developed the tendency to pronounce some short sound after it: there are different schools of thought about this India itself.  Some say that it is ऋ + a short "i", some that it is ऋ  + a short "u" - the fact is that, if a trill is followed by any sound, it is represented by a different character in the script (the character for consonantal "ra").  So when you ask, is the definition of vowel different in Sanskrit, I'd answer that, perhaps it is more accurate to say that the original Sanskrit speakers, etc. had/used vowels other than the ones we recognize in most of today's languages, and that "ऋ" is one of them.

 

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[sudar...@gmail.com]

महोदय श्रेयन्,

It becomes clear if the principles behind that is understood. 

स्वयं राजते स्वराः, इति उच्यते खलु। Now, what does it exactly mean?

• स्वराः can be pronounced for as long as possible and a listener can identify the swara even if it is heard partially.
  
• Ex, If I pronounce the swara ईऽऽ continuously, if you start hearing from 3rd second, not from the start, even then you can recognise that I am pronouncing the ई sound.
  
• व्यञ्जनानि cannot exist on their own but need स्वराः ।
• Ex, if I pronounce कीऽऽ continuously, and you hear from the 3rd second, you will only hear me say ई. That is because the ककारः has its existence only during the initial short period.
• So the व्यञ्जनानि do not have a life of their own. They are sometimes referred to as Dirac Delta Functions.

Can we then say व्यञ्जनानि स्वयं न राजन्ते ?

• No.
• Though the above is true for most consonants, there are two व्यञ्जने who can very well have life of their own. They are not necessarily Dirac Delta Functions.
  
• They are रकारः & लकारः
• To test that, pronounce र्ऽऽ continoiusly without adding any अ, इ, उ ए or ओ. You will see that it is indeed possible.
• Unlike the rest of the व्यञ्जनानि, the र्-कारः & ल्-कारः can indeed exist in continuous time domain without the above vowels. 
• They behave like vowels. 

तस्मात्, 

रकार-लकारयोः कालायामरूपे स्वरौ उच्येते । रकारस्य कालयामरूपं ऋकारः इति, लकारस्य कालयामरूपं ऌकारः इति च उच्यते।

If those two are स्वरौ, can they be added to other व्यञ्जनानि?

• Yes, that is what is "कृ" & "कॢ"
• Like with other vowels, we can have ह्रस्वरूपं, दीर्घरूपं or the longer प्लुतरूपम् 

इति सदरम्,

- सुदर्शनः

ಮಂಗಳವಾರ, ಫೆಬ್ರವರಿ 23, 2021 ರಂದು 12:00:37 ಅಪರಾಹ್ನ UTC+5:30 ಗಂಟೆಗೆ, shreyasmunshi ಅವರು ಹೀಗೆ ಬರೆದಿದ್ದಾರೆ:

[Bandaru Viswanath]

Sudarshan Mahodaya,

• स्वराः can be pronounced for as long as possible and a listener can identify the swara even if it is heard partially.
  
• Ex, If I pronounce the swara ईऽऽ continuously, if you start hearing from 3rd second, not from the start, even then you can recognise that I am pronouncing the ई sound.

This can't be true, since the time of pronunciation is driven/determined by the hrasva, dIrgha and pluta samjnas.

स्वयं राजते स्वराः,

I believe this only means that the svara are independent, but doesn't mean they can be pronounced as long as possible.

Thanks

Viswanath

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Sanskrit has ऋ in the positions of vowel , for example, as a word beginner followed by a consonant 

ऋतुः , ऋषिः , ऋणम्‌ etc. 

If this is the same as र्‌ , 

we must have  र् + consonant in the beginning of a word. 

But we do not have such a phonemic distribution in Sanskrit words.

The ऋ in the beginning of Sanskrit words behaves like a vowel in Guna sandhi and Vriddhi changes. 

महा+ ऋषिः = महर्षिः

ऋषिः > आर्षम्‌ 

This is not how र् behaves. 

Finally , 

a consonant clustered with a following ऋ, like a consonant followed by a vowel , does not create weight on the preceding syllable in Chandas /prosody. 

प्रकृतिः is UII 

like

प्रकितिः, प्रकुतिः 

unlike 

प्रक्रुतिः  

which is UUI

Thus prodically/metrically also ऋ is behaving like vowels, not like consonants. 

On Thu, Feb 25, 2021 at 10:54 AM sudar...@gmail.com <sudar...@gmail.com> wrote:

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre , Indic Academy

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.

Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru

BoS Rashtram School of Public Leadership

Editor-in-Chief, International Journal of Studies in Public Leadership

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education, 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

 

 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Please read the following words with visarga at the end of each omitted

प्रकृतिः is UII 

like

प्रकितिः, प्रकुतिः 

unlike 

प्रक्रुतिः  

which is UUI

[q885]

नमस्ते महोदय,

ञ्, म्, ङ्, ण, न, श, ष् and स् are also technically capable of being pronounced continuously.  Their equivalents do occur in English, i.e "hmm", "psst".  I don't know whether these sounds can ever occur when one is speaking संस्कृत.

धन्यवादः,

मात्युः

[Shreyas Munshi]

Sudarshan Sir,

I tried but could not produce र् continuously like अ.....इ.....  For र् to be continuous i had to say  र् र् र् र्....a trill. 

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