Link to Recording - Energy Action Team Meeting – January 12th, 2022

[bbec...@aol.com]

Folks, please find the January 12th meeting recording link below.

Your humble servant,  BGB =;D

Energy Action Team Meeting – January 12^th, 2022

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Mc1wuaqD7Y

[LCS]

Hi,

does anyone have any recommendations for a residential hot water heater ( heat pump of course ).  

not for us, for a neighbor and, can you believe it, really, its always a sunday that they go, right?  

Thanks

Leonard Sciarra, AIA, LEED ap+, ASHRAE

leonard...@gmail.com

m 847.345.5619

[Nathan Kipnis]

Len,

We generally specify the A.O.Smith Voltex 80 gallon unit.  80 gallons is good even if you think you don’t need that much, as the electric hybrid models take a little longer to thermally recover.  There are several versions of the Voltex model to choose from.

Nate

Nathan Kipnis, FAIA
LEED AP BD+C

Kipnis Architecture + Planning
1642 Payne Street  |  Evanston, IL  60201  |   847 864-9650
1200 Pearl Street   |  Boulder, CO  80302  |  720 677-0243

nki...@kipnisarch.com
Kipnis Architecture + Planning

Voted #1 Chicago residential firm by Better Magazine in 2019 and 2022
Listed as one of Chicago’s Top Sustainability Leaders by Crain’s Business Magazine in 2022

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[Steve LeVon]

My water heater is down right now also. Could someone give a brief summary comparison between a tankless electric water heater and the heat pump type, please?

Steve LeVon 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/renewevanston/193AB79A-0ABE-4537-9969-3B6FD73EBF24%40kipnisarch.com.

[Sylvia Wooller]

We have a Bradford White Aerotherm 50 Gal. Family of 2 adults and 2 teenagers. Always set to HP only mode and have never run low on hot water nor needed to switch to the electric mode, even for a period over summer when 4 visiting relatives stayed with us for 10 days.

80 gal seems over-the-top unless you have a lot of fixtures that a plumber would ordinarily spec an 80 gal tank, regardless of HP or not.  Size for 99%, not the 1%.  They all have hybrid and elec-only modes should you really need to overuse its 50 gal capacity. 

 
Sylvia Wooller
Founder + Director
773-272-2217
1322 Main St, Evanston, IL 60202

Carbon neutral since 2010 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/renewevanston/193AB79A-0ABE-4537-9969-3B6FD73EBF24%40kipnisarch.com.

[Nathan Kipnis]

Sylvia,

Totally agree.  However a lot of our clients have a tub that pretty well knocks out the entire tank.  An 80 gallon tank really doesn’t deliver 80 gallons once the cold water starts filling it back up.

Nate

Nathan Kipnis, FAIA
LEED AP BD+C

Kipnis Architecture + Planning
1642 Payne Street  |  Evanston, IL  60201  |   847 864-9650
1200 Pearl Street   |  Boulder, CO  80302  |  720 677-0243

nki...@kipnisarch.com
Kipnis Architecture + Planning

Voted #1 Chicago residential firm by Better Magazine in 2019 and 2022
Listed as one of Chicago’s Top Sustainability Leaders by Crain’s Business Magazine in 2022

[Joel Freeman]

I'm contemplating a purchase of a Rheem hybrid heat pump water heater, either from the Performance Platinum or Proterra model lines. 

My access space into the basement is limited so the dimensions of a larger tank will constrain my storage sizing. 

Joel

---

From: 'Nathan Kipnis' via Energy Task Force - CGE <renewe...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2023 7:40 AM
To: Leonard Sciarra <leonard...@gmail.com>
Cc: Brian Becharas <bbec...@aol.com>; renewe...@googlegroups.com <renewe...@googlegroups.com>; theo_m...@hotmail.com <theo_m...@hotmail.com>; mcab...@hotmail.com <mcab...@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: do we have a recommendation for a heat pump hot water heaters/

 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/renewevanston/193AB79A-0ABE-4537-9969-3B6FD73EBF24%40kipnisarch.com.

[Joel Freeman]

Hi Steve,

My starting point is this: The heat transferred into the water is done more efficiently using a heat pump compared to using resistance heating (like your kitchen toaster does). A heat pump uses about 1/3 of the power that resistance heating uses. 

I assume we're talking about a central water heating system. The main energy advantage of the tankless type is the reduction in standby losses. No energy is used to maintain a standing tank of water overnight, for example. However, a well insulated tank will also have reduced standby heat losses. For convenience in special circumstances, an instantaneous water heater never "runs out" of hot water. Picking a tank sized to match usage requires some thought.

Because a heat pump water heater extracts heat from the air, there are space requirements for air flow and routine servicing. Other constructability factors can affect your choice. For a remote powder room, e.g., a point-of-use instantaneous heater needs one less water line from the central system. Again, fewer piping standby losses, but these can also be addressed with good pipe insulation. But it will also need a dedicated electrical circuit. Many of these choices depend on the existing conditions and available access for installation. 

Joel 

---

From: renewe...@googlegroups.com <renewe...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Steve LeVon <steve...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2023 9:03 AM
To: Nate Kipnis <nki...@kipnisarch.com>
Cc: Leonard Sciarra <leonard...@gmail.com>; Brian Becharas <bbec...@aol.com>; RETF RETF <renewe...@googlegroups.com>; theo_m...@hotmail.com <theo_m...@hotmail.com>; mcab...@hotmail.com <mcab...@hotmail.com>

Subject: Re: do we have a recommendation for a heat pump hot water heaters/

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/renewevanston/CACom6DCJY8EYSPtSBkM5c8251sSLMdvMoXvC6%2BJW5e2hNV6rUA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Nathan Kipnis]

We’re not big fans of tankless water heaters.  They are perfect for reducing standby losses, i.e. when you aren’t using the hot water for longer periods of time.  I think they are good for vacation homes, but I don’t think there is enough time for hot water sitting around in the tank without use in a ’normal’ home application.  

Nathan Kipnis, FAIA
LEED AP BD+C

Kipnis Architecture + Planning
1642 Payne Street  |  Evanston, IL  60201  |   847 864-9650
1200 Pearl Street   |  Boulder, CO  80302  |  720 677-0243

nki...@kipnisarch.com
Kipnis Architecture + Planning

Voted #1 Chicago residential firm by Better Magazine in 2019 and 2022
Listed as one of Chicago’s Top Sustainability Leaders by Crain’s Business Magazine in 2022

On Oct 31, 2023, at 10:47 AM, Marie Cabiya <mcab...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Wow! Thanks for this. This decision would be laden with Analysis Paralysis for me. Would the City or CAE consider offering some specific suggestions, list of contractors, or consulting service? Something like this might facilitate the transition. This seems daunting even for someone who's very motivated like myself. 

---

From: Joel Freeman <JFre...@grummanbutkus.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2023 10:14 AM
To: Nate Kipnis <nki...@kipnisarch.com>; steve...@gmail.com <steve...@gmail.com>

[bbec...@aol.com]

I hope this is helpful and a great time to drop the reminder to pre-wire if you can! =;D

The 7 Best Heat Pump Water Heater Units In 2023

https://www.ecosmartinc.com/best-heat-pump-water-heater/

=;D  BGB

[Steve LeVon]

Thank you all for the lively discussion. Much appreciated. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/renewevanston/751972772.1132279.1698772991659%40mail.yahoo.com.

[Leonard Sciarra]

Well, we all lost, because they went the quick and simple route of replacing the, yes, natural gas water heater in kind. 

Yup, not even going electric, because they would have had to run a circuit from the panel, and that would have taken "time".. 

This is a very typical decision...not that they are bad people, but what do you do when your water heater breaks, well call a plumber, not a plumber-electrician, so what do you get when you call a plumber, tbe quick plumbing solution. 

So sad. 

Leonard Sciarra, AIA, LEED f/ap+, ASHRAE, CPHC
(m) 847.345.5619

[Leonard Sciarra]

Yes, I am on the fence about tank/tankless.  We have tankless and love it ( but I have to admit it's nat gas ) it's interesting how outlooks change in 20 years, at the time reducing standby losses was the thing...

Anyways, yes, we need to shout out to pre wire....  if we make a web page, can we get it hosted on the CGE site? 

Leonard Sciarra, AIA, LEED f/ap+, ASHRAE, CPHC
(m) 847.345.5619

On Wed, Nov 1, 2023, 7:58 AM Theodore Manning <theo_m...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Yes, this is exactly what happens, all over America, thousands of times a day, I should think, exactly as we’ve discussed.

It’s precisely why Brian has suggested that we advise people to pre-wire.

T. Manning

847-553-6182

On Oct 31, 2023, at 5:42 PM, Leonard Sciarra <leonard...@gmail.com> wrote:



[Nathan Kipnis]

T.

That is not my point at all. 

The only advantage of an instantaneous water heater is reduces standby losses.  In other words, a normal hot water tank constantly cycles between its set points.  Let’s say you have the water set at 105ºF.  It might go up to 105 and then slowly cool down until it’s at 102 and then reheat the water in the tank back up to 105.  If you go on vacation, it keeps doing this while you are gone, so it’s wasting energy trying to keep the water at that temperature while you are gone. The key point of this is this doesn’t really ever happen in a home you live in.  

Having an instantaneous water heater makes the most sense, for example, in a vacation home that you are at only two weeks a year.  In that case, you are wasting energy for 50 weeks a year while the temperature in the a normal water heater tank bobs up and down.  In a normal house with normal use, that doesn’t really ever happen, so there is really not much of a point in having an instantaneous water heater.

Nate

Nathan Kipnis, FAIA
LEED AP BD+C

Kipnis Architecture + Planning
1642 Payne Street  |  Evanston, IL  60201  |   847 864-9650
1200 Pearl Street   |  Boulder, CO  80302  |  720 677-0243

nki...@kipnisarch.com
Kipnis Architecture + Planning

Voted #1 Chicago residential firm by Better Magazine in 2019 and 2022
Listed as one of Chicago’s Top Sustainability Leaders by Crain’s Business Magazine in 2022

On Nov 1, 2023, at 7:52 AM, Theodore Manning <theo_m...@hotmail.com> wrote:

I’ve had a tankless hot water heater since gut-rehabbing my family’s full-time residence 8 years ago. 

It’s true that it initially takes about a minute for the water heater to heat up the water when you first ask for it. That’s because there’s no tank full of hot water waiting to be used. But that’s only when the system has been unused for several hours, like overnight, for example.

Let’s say we wake up at 7:00. I take the first shower of the day. Yes, I wait for the system to warm up. Again, it takes about a minute of running the water for it to get hot. But then, at 7:30, my wife takes a shower. She doesn’t have to wait at all because the hot water heater and the hot water supply pipes are already warm. My kid takes a shower at 8:30. He might wait ten seconds.

You get used to how the system behaves and you adjust accordingly. It’s really not a big deal. 

In my opinion to focus on the minor inconvenience of it sort of unnecessarily creates a first-world problem. I’m afraid I have to respectfully disagree with Nate on this one.

T. Manning

847-553-6182

On Oct 31, 2023, at 1:28 PM, Steve LeVon <steve...@gmail.com> wrote:



[LCS]

Hi Steve,

one really in the weeds nuance, is since the heat pump hot water heater "takes" heat from the space, it will make the space colder, ergo you heating system will have to work "more", SO in the summer, its like free cooling, but in the winter, your space heating system will make up the shortfall, SO depending if you have AC or not and if your space heating is Natural Gas or Electric, you may by default heating your hot water in the winter with natural gas,

its still a win win, as the summer operations and as Joel said the efficiency is crazy ( its weird to think about just using energy to move energy around rather than "make" heat ).

good luck!

were you negotiating a nat gas instantaneous or electric instantaneous?

Leonard Sciarra, AIA, LEED ap+, ASHRAE

leonard...@gmail.com

m 847.345.5619

------ Original Message ------

From "Steve LeVon" <steve...@gmail.com>

To "Brian Becharas" <bbec...@aol.com>

Cc "Leonard Sciarra" <leonard...@gmail.com>; "Nate Kipnis" <nki...@kipnisarch.com>; "Joel Freeman" <JFre...@grummanbutkus.com>; "RETF RETF" <renewe...@googlegroups.com>; theo_m...@hotmail.com; mcab...@hotmail.com

Date 10/31/2023 1:27:58 PM

[Steve LeVon]

We have a gas water heater that started leaking on a Fri night, and we were leaving town Monday morning. The plumber could have replaced the gas water heater on Saturday, but I wanted to get away from natural gas. We would have needed a 240 volt outlet for an electric tankless heater, and no electrician was available Saturday, so it has to wait until we get home. 

I like the idea of a heat pump. I was looking around for a company around Dayton that could install a heat pump in case my ancient furnace failed. But even the group that is advocating for all electric homes could not offer any suggestions yet. 

Now that I know there are heat pump water heaters, I'm rethinking what to do. My furnace and water heater are side by side in the basement. Would it be possible that the basement would get so cold in the winter, that the two heat pumps could not function adequately?

Thank you all for weighing in on this. It's amazing to me that this discussion arose just when I needed it. 

[Jonathan Nieuwsma]

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 2, 2023, at 6:42 PM, Steve LeVon <steve...@gmail.com> wrote:



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/renewevanston/CACom6DDFq%2Bk8tjhFndV9bTjB1QDdZoUhb-jJOh5Dj5qN3aitnA%40mail.gmail.com.

[LCS]

steve,

in response to your basement with the two heat pumps getting colder and colder. no, because the whole house heat pump (the heat exchanger part) would be outside.  Only the water heater heat pump would be inside.  but yes, the logic is still true, that as the heat pump hot water "heats" the water it is "taking" heat from the air in the basement.

hope this helps

Leonard Sciarra, AIA, LEED ap+, ASHRAE

leonard...@gmail.com

m 847.345.5619

------ Original Message ------

From "Jonathan Nieuwsma" <jnie...@yahoo.com>

To steve...@gmail.com

Cc "LCS" <leonard...@gmail.com>; "Brian Becharas" <bbec...@aol.com>; "Nate Kipnis" <nki...@kipnisarch.com>; "Joel Freeman" <JFre...@grummanbutkus.com>; "RETF RETF" <renewe...@googlegroups.com>; theo_m...@hotmail.com; mcab...@hotmail.com

Date 11/2/2023 6:49:23 PM

[LCS]

Steve, 

ok so do you still need a reccomendation of an HVAC contractor that can install a heat pump whole house heater/air conditioner?  I am assuming Dayton, OH?  

LMK

Leonard Sciarra, AIA, LEED ap+, ASHRAE

leonard...@gmail.com

m 847.345.5619

------ Original Message ------

From "Steve LeVon" <steve...@gmail.com>

To "LCS" <leonard...@gmail.com>

Cc "Brian Becharas" <bbec...@aol.com>; "Nate Kipnis" <nki...@kipnisarch.com>; "Joel Freeman" <JFre...@grummanbutkus.com>; "RETF RETF" <renewe...@googlegroups.com>; theo_m...@hotmail.com; mcab...@hotmail.com

Date 11/2/2023 6:41:43 PM

Subject Re: Re[2]: do we have a recommendation for a heat pump hot water heaters/

[Steve LeVon]

I have a plumber coming this afternoon to give me an estimate. It sounded like this would be a new type of water heater for him. 

Sure, I would like to have any recommendations for whole house heat pump installers in Dayton. I'll keep the names until I can use them.

Thank you for the information and encouragement.

Steve

[Steve LeVon]

Yesterday our new hybrid (heat pump and electric) water heater was installed. So now we have hot water in an energy-saving way, AND some Dayton plumbers have a little more experience installing heat pump water heaters.

[Nathan Kipnis]

Steve,

Congratulations!  That is awesome.  Well done.

Nate

Nathan Kipnis, FAIA
LEED AP BD+C

Kipnis Architecture + Planning
1642 Payne Street  |  Evanston, IL  60201  |   847 864-9650
1200 Pearl Street   |  Boulder, CO  80302  |  720 677-0243

nki...@kipnisarch.com
Kipnis Architecture + Planning

Voted #1 Chicago residential firm by Better Magazine in 2019 and 2022
Listed as one of Chicago’s Top Sustainability Leaders by Crain’s Business Magazine in 2022

[Joel Freeman]

That's great Steve! 

Could you pass along the make and model you chose? If you have any unique details about your installation, those would be nice to know. Any future notes about routine care (like air filters) would give good intel on the ownership experience. 

Joel

---

From: 'Nathan Kipnis' via Energy Task Force - CGE <renewe...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2023 6:56 AM
To: Steve LeVon <steve...@gmail.com>
Cc: LCS <leonard...@gmail.com>; Brian Becharas <bbec...@aol.com>; Joel Freeman <JFre...@grummanbutkus.com>; RETF RETF <renewe...@googlegroups.com>; T. Manning <theo_m...@hotmail.com>; Marie Cabiya <mcab...@hotmail.com>

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/renewevanston/279A4CCC-2596-4E01-B9C0-11FAAE8E0FCA%40kipnisarch.com.

[Steve LeVon]

It's a 40-gallon AO Smith. They recommend cleaning or replacing the air filter periodically. I'll get you more specifics in a couple days.

[Steve LeVon]

Here are the details. AO Smith, simply called Heat Pump Water Heater (model HPTU-50N 130). It's 50 gallons, not what my previous email said.

There is a condensate drain line to carry away the condensing water (like the drips from a window A/C unit).

The air filter needs to be checked, removed and cleaned as needed.

There is a "Vacation" mode of operation. It will maintain a water temp of 60 F for as many days as you choose, then return to the previous settings.

A surprise caution in the user's guide: "Hydrogen gas builds up in a hot water system when it is not used for a long period (two weeks or more). Hydrogen gas is extremely flammable. If the hot water system has not been used for two weeks or more, open a hot water faucet for several minutes at the kitchen sink before using any electrical appliances connected to the hot water system. Do not smoke or have an open flame or other ignition source near the faucet while it is open." I never heard such a warning with a gas water heater. I guess the electricity splits some water into hydrogen gas and oxygen in an electric heater.

[Joel Freeman]

Thanks Steve!

I wonder if the hydrogen caution is only for heat pump water heaters because of the refrigerant? Or only for AO Smith products? Seems an odd byproduct. 

Although more of an issue in commercial buildings, especially healthcare, homeowners should be aware that long duration stagnant water in the right temperature range (77°F-113°F) can risk Legionella growth. More here: Legionella Growth and Spread: For Healthcare Facilities | CDC

An additional caution with a long vacation mode.

Joel

---

From: Steve LeVon <steve...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2023 11:23 AM
To: Joel Freeman <JFre...@grummanbutkus.com>
Cc: nki...@kipnisarch.com <nki...@kipnisarch.com>; LCS <leonard...@gmail.com>; Brian Becharas <bbec...@aol.com>; RETF RETF <renewe...@googlegroups.com>; T. Manning <theo_m...@hotmail.com>; Marie Cabiya <mcab...@hotmail.com>

[Nathan Kipnis]

Joel,

A good reason that an instantaneous water heater does make sense for vacation homes.

Nate

Nathan Kipnis, FAIA
LEED AP BD+C

Kipnis Architecture + Planning
1642 Payne Street  |  Evanston, IL  60201  |   847 864-9650
1200 Pearl Street   |  Boulder, CO  80302  |  720 677-0243

nki...@kipnisarch.com
Kipnis Architecture + Planning

Voted #1 Chicago residential firm by Better Magazine in 2019 and 2022
Listed as one of Chicago’s Top Sustainability Leaders by Crain’s Business Magazine in 2022

[bbec...@aol.com]

I couldn't find anything about hydrogen build-up in heat pumps while Googling... I did find lots of debunking about hydrogen gas as fuel for heating homes.

The Legionella thing is frightening!

Thanks to all inquiring minds... YIKES What a world we live in! =;D  BGB

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/renewevanston/CH0P221MB04576BCA58090AE994C7B9B4C8B4A%40CH0P221MB0457.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM.

[Joel Freeman]

Apparently, the hydrogen is a common byproduct if the sacrificial anode found in most water heaters. GE Appliances has the same warning in their user manual.

Water Heaters - Hydrogen Gas (geappliances.com)

What the heck are we talking about?

The sacrificial anode: what is it? When should you replace it? - HydroSolution

You can geek out about the chemistry here:
everyday chemistry - How does hydrogen gas build up in hot water lines? - Chemistry Stack Exchange

Joel

---

From: bbec...@aol.com <bbec...@aol.com>
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2023 4:22 PM
To: Steve LeVon <steve...@gmail.com>; Joel Freeman <JFre...@grummanbutkus.com>
Cc: nki...@kipnisarch.com <nki...@kipnisarch.com>; LCS <leonard...@gmail.com>; RETF RETF <renewe...@googlegroups.com>; T. Manning <theo_m...@hotmail.com>; Marie Cabiya <mcab...@hotmail.com>

[Steve LeVon]

I forgot to mention that this is a hybrid water heater. It has 4 modes of operation:

Efficiency (heat pump only)

Hybrid (heat pump supplemented by electricity)

Electric (electricity only)

Vacation (as noted above)

Would hydrogen be produced by the electric heating element as well as the sacrificial anode?

[Steve LeVon]

Never mind. At the end of the chemistry web page, it says the hydrogen has nothing to do with gas vs electric water heaters.