On transparency, community, and drama

[Najey Rifai]

In light of recent events, I want to give my two pennies. I've been waiting for the right time to say this, but I've realised that the longer I wait the less value this will contribute to the conversation. So here goes.

I think this is all very childish; coming from me, that means a lot! This community workshop, at least since I joined in 2018, is a place for crafters to come together, support each other, and create amazing things. I think it's only right that people know: there's been a secret coup between senior members of the workshop. Isn't that mental? What do you think this is? Reality TV?

The fact it's been happening behind the backs of the very same people it effects is just upsetting. The fact that everyone is so touchy about keeping their grievances private has only worsened the situation. If the initiators of this situation had manned the fuck up and actually put their concerns to the members I don't think it would have gone this far.

From an outsider perspective there are no bad people in this. Petty, partisan, pathetic maybe, but everyone thinks they're doing the right thing. AFAIK I'm friendly with all parties involved, but if this continues to spiral I'll leave, and so will others.

I know I'm going to get a lot of shit for posting this but I've had enough. Fuck this madness. To those benefiting from this directly (my honestly loving advice): the truth will out, and the people will react; I hope you will humble yourselves before they humble you. 

[Mr.G]

 I have no idea what this is about?

Is there a clickable digest?

Do I need worry? 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "rLab / Reading's Hackspace" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to reading-hacksp...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/reading-hackspace/CAOUYU-_R%3DGnDAbg9rkmYzFXakd9ZEbYn0sqKLP%2BOU-KYt3e%2BDg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Vance Briggs]

Najey, All,

I appreciate you for trying to vocalize what I believe to be "common sense", but very few people know what has happened (including myself) and therefore cannot put your comments in context. 

I presume given the proximity to Mark's resignation that these are related. I am concerned that  Mark felt the need to resign as I consider him to be the most level headed director. 

I don't want this to turn into a sh*t slinging contest, but I would appreciate an unemotional statement from the remaining directors. 

Vance

On Sat, 11 Mar 2023, 04:10 Najey Rifai, <najey...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

[Tom Bayley]

What seems really sad is that the inconsiderate and selfish ruin it for the others.

But I guess that is the world we live in the narcissistic people take/ destroy and feel nothing.

Going to be sad if the hack space disappears 

Tom Bayley  

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/reading-hackspace/CAFLXuqtJ2PfNw_9iyp38h6mn4Rm%2BW3AvKbxaNrRw0Vrxc_h9%2BQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Tom Allen]

I am not really sure how your insults and complaints add to this situation in any meaningful way, but I hear you are upset.

I agree that far too many things have been happening in secret. For example:

How many members know that over £60,000 of THEIR money is sitting in a savings account while they try to make things in the space with broken heating and broken tools?

How many members have been witness to a director making horrible comments about members behind their backs?

How many members were consulted about large purchase decisions bought with THEIR money before they happened?

How many members voted in the current directors?

How many other important things have been kept secret from the members because some of the current directors believe they have the right to operate without the consent or even informing the members?

All of these things are directly against the principles of a community members organisation.

In the past ALL matters, other than misconduct, were disclosed and discussed and agreed upon as a community, that is a hackspace.

Tom Allen

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "rLab / Reading's Hackspace" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to reading-hacksp...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/reading-hackspace/CAOUYU-_R%3DGnDAbg9rkmYzFXakd9ZEbYn0sqKLP%2BOU-KYt3e%2BDg%40mail.gmail.com.

--

Tom Allen
+44 7939 025 131

[najey...@gmail.com]

This is exactly what I wanted, thank you! I wanted transparency. I didn't know any of what you just said. Now in your defence, my language is a bit biased by what I've seen. In my defence, what I've seen is what I've been able to see. My money and time goes into the upkeep of the workshop, as does that of a couple hundred others; in return we get to enjoy the experience of attending said workshop! That experience is intrinsically and directly affected by the behaviour of the directors (and let's be honest, landlord). I have a right to know and all of you have a right to circumvent the directors and tell everyone if nothing is being done. I've been intentionally vague because this isn't an attempt to out any bad behaviour directly, it's an attempt to warn people of the consequences of keeping secrets in a hope that they will not!

[Andrew]

On the subject of Rlab funds: it's been known to Rlab directors and anyone that's asked us that the current location of Rlab is in an area that reading council plan to redevelop in the next 5 to ten years, the development plan they released is available online and I'm sure you've noticed the flats going up around us, as such some years ago it was considered prudent to build up some level of savings to ensure the continued existence of Rlab in the event that we need to move. Though by the company charter written when RLab was founded (available from the companies house website if you're interested) directors cannot legally divulge financial details of RLab, even to members.

On the subject of broken equipment: Members of Rlab that have previously been involved in maintaining the heating system have been taking action on this, but as you have pointed out, as a Hackspace everything that happens does so only when members are able to volunteer their time and experience to the task, and when those members are unavailable then the project stalls until others are able to take up the project. An example of this is the compressor, when it first broke there was discussion about how to replace it and no clear consensus was reached, eventually two members took it upon themselves to plan and source a replacement. Unfortunately they have not had the availability to complete this project and it has since stalled.

On the subject of horrible comments: please see our inclusivity policy on the wiki for more details but I'll summarise here too: If you hear anything said at Rlab whether to yourself or otherwise that you find offensive then please let a director know. If it is a director saying it then Definitely let another director know. It will be investigated.

On the subject of large purchases could you please be more specific. Which purchases do you think should not have been made and why?

On the matter of voting: As it says on the wiki and in the induction the Rlab is a 'do-occracy'. Important decisions about what happens at Rlab are and always have been the decision of those members who volunteer their time and effort to get things done. While this is often one or more directors we would be very happy if more members would offer not just their opinion but their time. The mandate of the directors of Rlab is to sign the paperwork that needs signing for Rlab to exist as a legal entity, everything else we do is done as a member of Rlab with the time and will to volunteer.

On the subject of secrets: I have always answered any question that doesn't relate to an investigation of misconduct to the best of my ability to anyone that has expressed an interest and I'm sure all current and previous directors have too. This forum and the discord group we are trialling are both excellent ways to reach out and talk.

TL;DR:

If you have questions, ask.

If you have options, volunteer.

Andrew,

On behalf of the directors.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/reading-hackspace/834325d2-3399-4c06-8f49-af3498d43d61n%40googlegroups.com.

[Vance Briggs]

Tom, All,

(Andrew has somewhat beaten me to it, but as I have drafted this I'll post it anyway)

Having been a director of the hackspace I agree with your idealistic view of a "Community Members Organization", but the reality is that very few of our members actually get involved in that community and put effort in.  There are of course the exceptions and I applaud them, but the majority come in, use the space, and go home.  Some don't even bother to clean up their workspaces, let alone volunteer to maintain pieces of equipment or put effort in that benefits the community as a whole.

Your comments implying that the directors are somehow working against the community are generally unfounded.  I feel that  if anything their failing is not having encouraged more participation/contribution from the members (and I include myself in this failing).  I also think that maybe there is a weariness amongst the directors in feeling that they have to do everything themselves (Chicken and Egg).

Whilst I agree with you that there should be more transparency around finances, I feel that your comments about money in a savings account is "sensationalism" aimed at stirring up the community. I am sure that you are aware that that money is being accumulated to try and ensure that the hackspace has some longevity beyond its current location.  Flats are going up all around us and it is likely only a matter of time before the industrial area on which we live is sold off.  If we don't make provision for a deposit for alternative accommodation then the hackspace dies with the building.

I don't believe that the lack of spending on equipment is because anything has been turned down.  It is just the ambivalence of the community to organize, cost, poll members and generally co-ordinate the approval/purchase/installation for new kit.  It would appear to fall to the directors to manage this and as I said above I feel a weariness from them for lack of support/assistance.

If you want new tools then do the donkeywork, poll the members, cost up a proposal, identify how the kit will be installed, identify who does the Health and Safety assessment, who maintains the machine, etc.  Then present that business case to the directors and ask for funding.  If you are just seeking funding and the business case is solid then I can't see a reason why it would not be granted.  If all you do is moan about not having machine X then it is no surprise that it doesn't magically appear in the hackspace.

Vance

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/reading-hackspace/CACEZB%2BGZVfwe0fV7EdTdypkEu%3DGefL2GxJLOhCnaFpXC4kPmmA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Gavin]

some thoughts from me on this:

1/ Najey is right - there is something afoot [fwiw I didn't detect any insults in your post Najey, just forceful expression of your frustration], and I am in broad agreement with what Najey says, including being friendly with all people involved and being concerned that this could spiral out of control and cost us the hackspace and community that goes with it. @Everybody - this is a time for cool heads, and careful, considerate communication, not unfounded allegations and insults.

2/ I think it is right that RMS Ltd maintains a reserve of cash to guard against having to secure and move into a new property at short notice. Being unable to do this is a common cause of hackspaces failing. I haven't run the numbers to figure how much is enough, £60k is likely too high, but there are other factors in why they have accrued so much money.

3/ Before anyone starts projecting false motives on to RMS Ltd for having all of this money, my understanding is that the Articles of Association guard against the Directors extracting this money in the form of wages, dividends or otherwise to their own benefit (see point 5 below)

4/ There are other reasons why money does not get spent at the hackspace, including lack of capacity to spend it, concerns about value for money, and doubts about whether an item has sufficient appeal to a broad base of the membership. Btw, anyone waiting for a new compressor, might want to put some effort into forging agreement about what type/model of compressor to buy - as I understand it, it is lack of consensus that is delaying that purchase.

5/ I think everyone needs to remember that the Directors are not paid. Everything they do, including sign-ups, inductions, purchases, resolving differences and investigating complaints, is done for free. Ask yourselves - what do they get out of it?

Gavin

[Tony Summers]

"Though by the company charter written when RLab was founded (available from the companies house website if you're interested) directors cannot legally divulge financial details of RLab, even to members."

Not true. The articles say members have no automatic right to inspect the financial records but nothing stops the directors choosing to share them in whole or part or summary. (section 3.1.1)

Sent with Proton Mail secure email.

------- Original Message -------

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/reading-hackspace/CANfu%2Bi2D%2Br7erxeSTjb1FfmawmsWPODptBmjXV%3DHrWELgXu7dA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Frank in Woodcote]

Am I partly responsible for all this? Or at least all those who know me...? Not being a fully paid up card holder, but aquainted, on and off over the years, but only more formally recently. 

I've been making suggestions of how we can actually get even more money in the kitty, which I why I came up with the idea about a collab with the bike kitchen across the way, just as one example. 

In an ideal world, the entire enterprise would be self funding, where monthly fees could drop to only a few pounds a month (under £5), which would open it up to many more people. I was even thinking about a gov't scheme where tuition or guided help to job seekers and people willing to re-skill would raise a fair bit more money still (like over 20k). The gov is trying to help everyone become more skilled in the exact area that rLab is so good at. 

Tools and machines wear out and break. Accidents (breaking stuff) happen. It's all part of the plan and has been budgeted for as I see it.

We are a group of people varying between absolute newbs and seriously skilled individuals. And 'generally' are great at working together. I mean come on, look at some of the stuff we've all accomplished. There's not much we can't do if we work together and help each other out. We're ever so good at it! Be proud. 

Ultimately, i don't need rLab, but I do enjoy helping people expanding their knowledge, just like you do Najey 👍🏻

Who else is going to the next repair cafe (next weekend)? Stuart's doing a fab job coordinating everything.

[Nigel Worsley]

On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 at 14:05, Andrew <andrew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Though by the company charter written when RLab was founded (available from the companies house website if you're interested) directors cannot legally divulge financial details of RLab, even to members.

I assume you are referring to article 50 of the Certificate of
Incorporation, and it doesn't say that. What it DOES say is:
"Except as provided by law or authorised by the directors or an
ordinary resolution of the Company, no person is entitled to inspect
any of the Company's accounting or other records or documents merely
by virtue of being a member."

This removes the normal automatic right of members of a company to
inspect the accounts, it in no way restricts the directors' ability to
publish any figures as they see fit. Hiding behind this clause seems
to be exactly the lack of transparency that is being complained about.

Nigel Worsley

[Tom Allen]

I feel any policy that significant to the membership should only be taken with awareness and agreement of the membership. 

Members who were in hardship paid their dues believing that was essential to the spaces survival unaware the directors were counting the savings go above £50k in private. Above the 20k they originally agreed as a reasonable war chest. Does that sound right to you? 

I find if you treat and induct new people as customers , they will act like one. If you induct them as members of a community they own they are much more inclined to participate. This community is already 13 years old and it has rejected autocracy the whole time.

Tom

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "rLab / Reading's Hackspace" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to reading-hacksp...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/reading-hackspace/CAEq1Cr7a9QfyetCixrG50uXC_LSG9%3D6DLfz20rKWVxzedjaL1A%40mail.gmail.com.

[Tom Allen]

For full transparency. I as landlord, have called for a members election of new directors on the basis the current directors are not operating a hackspace with integrity as a members organisation. I did offer them a number of opportunities to engage with me about this over the last month and also met with a number of you to gain information. If anyone would like to speak to me about their views on this matter please do call me on 07939 025131 or msg me etc

Tom 

[Tom Allen]

By which I mean I will not rent the building to any organisation other than a hackspace of integrity operating as a members organisation. Those who have known me since the start know that is all I have ever cared about.

And giant friggin lasers! 

Imagine what even 10k could have done to reignite the space post shut down..... And that was not the only problem by far. 

[Vance Briggs]

Tom,

Just for clarity, what are you proposing to do with "our money"?

Vance

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/reading-hackspace/CACEZB%2BGzfH-GdNsqiLkbmPH_qdUVQ_LOcSC%3D-D7DFt0cRby%2BUA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Gavin]

Tom, my friend - for the sake of the Hackspace, I think you need to step back from this. 

I understand you are concerned, but do not think this is the way to deal with it. I think that by taking this action you are imperilling the thing that you are seeking to protect. You are creating an environment where, no matter what directors, structures and processes are put in place, the Hackspace operates in fear of the judgement of one member - you. This is effectively an autocracy in itself. As fellow members, we will always be grateful for the way that you have stepped in and provided premises - an arrangement that has provided the stable conditions for growth over a ten year period. But having the landlord reach in and use their position of power to call the shots is extremely unhealthy and irregular. For good or bad, you need to let the Hackspace govern itself.

1/ if there are unaddressed issues of conduct they need to be reported to the directors, not to you, and the directors should be given the opportunity to resolve them. If they concern one of the directors, then they should be reported to one of the other directors.

2/ if there are issues with the directors as a group, then perhaps they should be heard by a panel of the members who could consider and, if appropriate, recommend a remedy. I would not be willing to serve on such a panel, but would trust the collective judgement of the people who did. I don’t think you should sit on the panel (for the reason set out above), and think that you should agree to trust them too. However, for the sake of justice, any complaints need to be considered within the frame of the rules and norms of the Hackspace at the time, as judged by that panel, not how you think they should have been or should be going forward.

3/ if you think there is need for reform of how the Hackspace is run, make a case as a peer member to the rest of the membership. Make clear that you are doing so as a fellow member, and take care not to bring your power as landlord to the discussion. Take the threat out of the situation so we can have a genuinely open and even-handed discussion about how the Hackspace should operate.

4/ if at the end of all this you do not feel that the resultant organisation is one you can support, then make plans for an orderly exit from your position as landlord in a way that at least allows the community to plan and find new premises and preserve the good that has resulted from your involvement. As I said, we would be forever indebted to you for your contribution.

Gavin

[Tom Bayley]

Getting the correct view can change the narrative.

I think a full and structured face to face discussion would be more healthy 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "rLab / Reading's Hackspace" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to reading-hacksp...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/reading-hackspace/C61688CA-9FF9-4593-A903-F63A4D578616%40gmail.com.

[Tony Summers]

That's always been the case and to pretend otherwise is silly. Tom can pretend to be just another member all day long but the reality is he knows and we know that the hackspace needs his approval to operate.

[Alex P]

I agree a members meeting is probably a good idea, happy to have a look for a local hall to hire for a couple of hours if people agree?

Tom, apart from the money, what other issues have you got, please could you let us know what your grievances are?

[Gavin]

Maybe, but the extent to which this is an issue depends on how Tom chooses to act as a landlord - either respecting the governance of the Hackspace or imposing his will autocratically. I believe that this issue can be best managed if Tom separates his benevolent contribution as our landlord from his contributions to the community as a member. 

Gavin

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 at 09:09, 'Tony Summers' via rLab / Reading's Hackspace <reading-...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

That's always been the case and to pretend otherwise is silly. Tom can pretend to be just another member all day long but the reality is he knows and we know that the hackspace needs his approval to operate.

I understand you are concerned, but do not think this is the way to deal with it. I think that by taking this action you are imperilling the thing that you are seeking to protect. You are creating an environment where, no matter what directors, structures and processes are put in place, the Hackspace operates in fear of the judgement of one member - you. This is effectively an autocracy in itself.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "rLab / Reading's Hackspace" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to reading-hacksp...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/reading-hackspace/Cy9GxxYzHGa0-kfR9IRuesAZQZT1YGQMubAGl10gZF10Ju6dlvGTISqU-YHoBerjd_0SewAURWUFntBpjVmZI2UOeQpZ5X3WtGQ38Kblxp4%3D%40proton.me.

[Mark Morris]

A few things from me.

I have been looking to step down for a while, my job takes up more of my time and headspace, but also I don't like the constant gossip and rumour spreading. Every time I come into the space someone trots up to me to say who has done what. It's tiresome.

Being a director is hard, not hard hard, but it is draining.

I have not resigned because Tom is trying to force us all to resign, or because I accept the charges made, but because I've just had enough. It's ludicrous that is has got to this stage.

We were in the process of bringing in some new directors and I was going to make sure we had a code of conduct in place, which would apply to all members but which the directors would be expected to embody. I'm not sure any of those people will still want to be directors. Why would they?

If Tom wants to suggest a framework for voting on directors then I am all ears, but it's naive to think that will make things any better. 

The finances are not secret, it is well known we run a surplus each month and have a fund for when we need to move. We publish quarterly stats to give a flavour of this. I'd like to think most members have trust in this. Perhaps we can be more open here, but which members have raised this and to who?

Any member can suggest new/replacement items. It is not up to the directors to do this. We have generally been more than happy to get stuff.

We would buy a new compressor tomorrow if there was agreement on what to get. Andrew was in the process of trying once more to get consensus.

So are we accused of hoarding money or spending too much without consultation, it can't be both.

The hackspace is a brilliant place, every time a new person comes into the space they say how amazing it is. I think we forget that at times.

Last Thursday evening was how it should be, people had brought in their projects to discuss, there was a great atmosphere, I saw new members getting involved and I caught up with some friends I hadn't seen in a while. And there was cake. Really good cake.

Unfortunately now it is a shitshow.

Behind the scenes I've had many discussions with Tom and it sounds like others have too, but seemingly to no avail. I know he is doing this with the very best intentions but is going to kill off the very thing he thinks he is saving. Those members advising him, bringing him gossip and half truths and pushing him to this should be ashamed of themselves.

Mark

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/reading-hackspace/CANjezMfAaOsU6SCLkFQyJN6HM09EFz5mtfEBs1PUP2ug80J3_A%40mail.gmail.com.

[Tony Summers]

Bringing in new directors? So where was the public call for nominations? or were you just planning to co-opt someone who agrees with you?

Finances not secret? Last time someone tried talking about it here all you said was their figures were wrong and that denial is seems misleading given the current numbers.

Sent with Proton Mail secure email.

------- Original Message -------

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/reading-hackspace/CAHmQW2qyZYCc6azMwV2t7TOjyvCZmy-vj5%2BwrpWxc3CT_L5KEQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Andrew]

So, I've been looking at RLab's memorandum of association (available on the wiki) and companies act 2006 and it looks like a vote at a general meeting would require at least 51% attendance of the membership. I am not a lawyer and this interpretation may be flawed so speak up if you think so, but I think based on engagement with this thread that we wouldn't see 100 people at such a meeting.

As such and since the primary disagreement here seems to be who holds positions as directors I'm going to seek some measure of consensus here before we resort to that.

Here is my proposal:

That any individual that believes themselves to have the time and will to participate in the role of director should nominate themselves such on this Google group with 7 days. (Before 19th March)

That any individual that objects to a director candidate (or current) shall email those objections to myself within a further 7 days. (Before 26th March)

I will collate and make anonymous any and all objections and present them privately to the individual they concern within a further 7 days (before 2nd April). That if it is called for I will ask for volunteers to form a committee of not less than 5 and not more than 9 members, to whom I will as a director delegate the role of receiving, collating, anonomising and delivering such objections. This committee will be named in this Google group before they engage their duties and will be subject to any and all appropriate GDPR requirements. The formation of this committee and their action will extend all subsequent deadlines by 14 days.

To which said candidate may choose to make a response on this Google group or withdraw their candidacy no later than 7 days from the previous deadline. (9th April unless committee is formed) If the candidate is a current director they may choose to withdraw their candidacy with the understanding that they shall resign once new directors are satisfied with the completion of the handover process.

My hope is that this will produce not less than 3 candidates for which the majority of the membership can feel confident in, who will then become directors. In the event that any current director is not among those candidates then that director shall resign after all candidates for which the membership is confident in have been made directors and are satisfied with the completion of the handover process.

In the event that there is strong objection on this Google group by not less than 10 members (approx 5% of membership) to any individual candidate at the end of this process they may withdraw or arrange 5% of the membership (10 members including themselves) to call for a general meeting, during which whether they should be a director will be voted upon in the process described in the memorandum of association.

In the event that there is a surplus of candidates such that there would be more than 9 directors I will propose a method of voting on this Google group to include all candidate and current directors, and if there is no strong objection we will implement that. If there is strong objection to the method of voting I would propose then I will call a general meeting and we can proceed with the appointment of each individual per the format described in the memorandum of association.

Please let me know what you think of this proposed process. It is my hope that this will lead to a fair and democratic decision and that all members will feel that their concerns have been heard and acted upon.

If you feel that your concerns about the transparency of decision making or financial transparency of the directors would not be satisfied by the appointment of new directors you are invited to make yourself a candidate and directly implement the changes you want made. After all, the guiding principles of a Hackspace are to make it yourself.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/reading-hackspace/CAHmQW2qyZYCc6azMwV2t7TOjyvCZmy-vj5%2BwrpWxc3CT_L5KEQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Jeremy Poulter]

Hi,

I think you may need to clarify what a member in that context is.

It is my understanding that Reading Maker Space Ltd and rLab/Reading Hackspace are legally not the same thing. As far as I understand it the directors are the only 'members' of the Reading Maker Space Ltd from a legal perspective (but I am not a lawyer and this is just based on conversations with the people who setup the company rather than any detailed research).

Cheers,

Jeremy 

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/reading-hackspace/CANfu%2Bi3eMbPTy45c-7empU967fia0uMHGyF_vHgucAjdfHsPMQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Andrew]

So, approximately 10 years ago the people involved in the makerspace created a company to exist for legal purposes, signing insurance and paying bills, that sort of thing.

During the induction process that has been used since then new members are asked to tick a checkbox to acknowledge that as a member or RMS ltd they are liable if the company defaults to a limit of £1. Anyone that hasn't checked that box in the 10 years that rmsl has existed is not a member of rmsl and cannot be a director and cannot vote in general or extraordinary meetings. This is a paraphrasing, you're invited to read the relevant documents if you want more information.

If you are a member of the Hackspace but are not sure if you are a member of RMSL let me know, I'll check in the database and if not we can arrange a meeting at rlab where you can tick the box and get things squared away.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/reading-hackspace/CANy6aFRKUS7td4NdjDS9TsTyAAVtH--cZCyfUVrh06MfUPea1g%40mail.gmail.com.

[Richard Ibbotson]

Hi Jeremy,

This is not my understanding.

I have been assured by the directors a number of times that they keep a list of current paid members of rLab and that this also constitutes the members of Reading Makerspace Ltd.

To be a director it is required to be a member

Irrespective of the legal position it has always been the spirit in our community that it is member led. This means that the directors whenever possible dynamically respond to the requirements of members without recourse to officialdom. There is plenty of opportunity for them to do this without invoking the legal thresholds. 

Richard

Sent via Richard's Phone

On 12 Mar 2023, at 13:15, Jeremy Poulter <jer...@bigjungle.net> wrote:



To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/reading-hackspace/CANy6aFRKUS7td4NdjDS9TsTyAAVtH--cZCyfUVrh06MfUPea1g%40mail.gmail.com.

[Richard Ibbotson]

Might I request that we move this topic to a private members only forum?

Some of our members have a life outside rLab where their social media is scrutinised which makes posting on topics like this a risk, and some are reticent to make their positions public given some of the other postings.

The new Discord does appear to be an opportunity for this, but I am not clear if it is members only. Otherwise maybe resurrect the cardholders group?

Vance could you advise?

Thanks,

Richard

Sent via Richard's Phone

On 12 Mar 2023, at 13:34, 'Richard Ibbotson' via rLab / Reading's Hackspace <reading-...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Hi Jeremy,

[Andrew]

So, the discord link is a public invite in that anyone with the link can access it, however so far it has only been distributed to members. If anyone would like to discuss this there I'll be in that chat too but I would not suggest it be thought of as a private forum.

If anyone has concerns that they would like to raise but would like to do so anonymously please contact me directly and I will relay them here as a proxy.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/reading-hackspace/9613628B-0E88-400F-813E-5E4F00BA62A8%40btinternet.com.

[Vance Briggs]

I agree that moving these discussions away from the google group which is both public and has a lot of people who are not members of the Hackspace is sensible.  I am looking into how best to achieve this.  I will post on the current Discord server shortly.

An email was sent out to all paying members on 7 Mar at 14:29 containing an invite link to the discord.  If you wish to partake in these discussions please follow the link and join the discord server.

Vance

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/reading-hackspace/9613628B-0E88-400F-813E-5E4F00BA62A8%40btinternet.com.

[Richard Ibbotson]

My proposal to move forward is to have an open election for the members of rLab/Reading Makerspace to appoint 4 additional directors.

We have done this before and it has worked well. It is entirely within the remit of the director(s) to poll the members on the scope of such an election and commit to implement the result.

We are in a better state now having a proper members register than in previous elections.

If people have concerns then an independent returning officer might be appointed.

I am negative on having a meeting at this stage as I fear it will drive division rather that convergence. Maybe when an election is confirmed then hustings might be appropriate.

Richard

Sent via Richard's Phone

On 12 Mar 2023, at 13:46, Andrew <andrew...@gmail.com> wrote:



To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/reading-hackspace/CANfu%2Bi0PgDiL4SuhgRB2gx8U5pXG8%3DSJGJi7cQgueWEuc7%2Ba0g%40mail.gmail.com.

[Andrew]

Richard, while I'm in favour of an open election, saying it should happen doesn't make it happen. That's why the proposal I posted had self-nomination as step one. We can't vote on anyone without anyone to vote for.

At the same time the MoA doesn't specify an upper limit on the number of directors, though from a practical perspective a directors meeting is difficult to arrange with too many, hence my suggestion of each candidate being considered on their own merits and a voting process to down select only if there is an abundance (at this point mor than 6 candidates)

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/reading-hackspace/EE9B33D9-E5A4-4116-AD9E-447F72FF8BDA%40btinternet.com.

[Stuart Ward]

Gavin

I respectfully disagree, the current problem has arisen from the closed nature of the running of the space. The hacker culture is one of complete openness, all the business should be openly discussed, with a few exceptions.

That we have not had any statement of accounts for several years is a major problem. And Tom was right to bring our attention to this issue.

Stuart

On 12/03/2023 07:21, Gavin wrote:

Tom, my friend - for the sake of the Hackspace, I think you need to step back from this. 

-- 
--
Stuart Ward
M +44 7782325143
T @xplora1a

[Stuart Ward]

I would suggest RISC

On 12/03/2023 09:10, 'Alex P' via rLab / Reading's Hackspace wrote:
> I agree a members meeting is probably a good idea, happy to have a
> look for a local hall to hire for a couple of hours if people agree?
>

[Gavin]

And Tom is entitled as a member to do so. I am suggesting that he ought to be careful to separate his role as landlord from his contribution as a member, else he risks creating an environment where “everything that Tom says goes” for fear of him withdrawing his property. Such a situation renders any governance - whatever your position on aims, governance structures, degree of transparency, funding strategy etc - meaningless

Gavin

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "rLab / Reading's Hackspace" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to reading-hacksp...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/reading-hackspace/735b2a69-0c8c-7fd7-82b4-9c4accb6f5a5%40bcs.org.

[Andrew]

If a member of the Hackspace had asked the directors to release a statement of accounts a few months ago it would have been relatively easy, because one director could go through the transaction history while the other directors continued business as usual.

Now however there is one director doing the work that was previously done by three. In addition to encouraging others to volunteer, while also attempting to address Tom's concerns to everyone's satisfaction.

So, while I would like to release a statement of accounts, and will once I have time to volunteer for the task, I would much rather someone volunteer to the position of director at least long enough to do it themselves.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/reading-hackspace/D92E6CC3-7C7B-41D5-A310-7CCE0FC9DE9A%40gmail.com.

[Mark Morris]

Our accounts were filed very recently and can be freely viewed online by anybody here.

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/07628386/filing-history

There has been no material change since they were published.

Of course this information is quite high level, but to say that there hasnt been transparency is disengenuous at best.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/reading-hackspace/CANfu%2Bi30s2PNL5uAa8nng7hFwzEAAceDkr_CVteWYKA5oazGVA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Stuart Ward]

Mark

Those are micro company accounts, and only contain the minimum required by companies house. I would expect the members to be given a short summary of the financial position of the company on an annual basis. Things like revenue form members subscriptions, other income, spending on capital items, and costs. Not looking for a lot of detail here, but just what would be presented by the treasurer of any community on an annual basis.

Stuart

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/reading-hackspace/CAHmQW2rKCDNBjLLiNC893sHjAQcq15u%3D-O%2BC%3D__TZ2X_s9Os0g%40mail.gmail.com.

[Richard Ibbotson]

Stuart.

I was fully aware of the state of the company accounts from the official filings. 

In December '22 I verbally gave my support to Tony to maintain the reserves at the £50k plus level for the following reasons.

1) The development plans in the Reading Foundry area suggest a move of premises within the next few years are of high probability.

2) While we have some assets insured it is of doubt whether the insurance would pay out. So to some extent we are self insured.

3) We were entering a time of uncertainty with rising energy costs and maybe the need to support some members who need to reduce their subscriptions but still use the space.

4) Uncertainty of growth and space requirements post pandemic.

Tony was not able to disclose more detail due to limits to sharing information with a single member. I did ask him to signal to members generally if we were starting to eat into the reserve. I also advised careful consideration and gaining member support for purchase of items such as an expensive compressor for reasons of maintenance of reserve and avoid a spending splurge. Tony delivered on this.

Subsequent to this Mark has submitted the latest accounts and we are still looking at a good reserve.

Considering that we are now working with a less trusted landlord then I think this level of reserve should be maintained and disagree with Tom that the figure is excessive. To secure new premises, deposit, fixtures and fittings, and moving costs will take a big chunk of this reserve and maybe more.

Thus, I consider the directors have acted properly and in the best interests of the members on this subject.

I would be alarmed if Tom or any other member or a  supplier has access to information not shared to

all members or that which is in the public domain.

Richard

Sent via Richard's Phone

On 12 Mar 2023, at 17:43, Mark Morris <aspidis...@gmail.com> wrote:



To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/reading-hackspace/CAHmQW2rKCDNBjLLiNC893sHjAQcq15u%3D-O%2BC%3D__TZ2X_s9Os0g%40mail.gmail.com.

[Tom Allen]

I currently give the hackspace a ~50% reduction in rent costs compared to the market rate. That is on certain conditions which were agreed when rlab was first opened and confirmed at a couple of the all members meetings/AGMs, although that was a long time ago now! I think that agreement should be better documented and republished and I will work on that asap. Basically it was that the tenant was a not for profit members organisation of integrity operating as a hackspace. It was never put into the actual contract, maybe that was a mistake?

My decision to suggest removing my support (which has totaled around £100k in rent discount now) was not taken lightly, and it did involve a number of issues which are not publicly visible, not just the ones listed in this thread. I consider some of them gross misconduct not just failing to be a hackspace. That is why i took action at the level I did. 

It is also worth noting that I confirmed with the council years ago (who are the actual superior owner of the site), that they would have to offer a buy out price above market rate OR supply a suitable new unit nearby AND pay any costs incurred related to moving (including fit out of a next space, lost income etc) due the type of lease I have on the unit. The cost and complexity of doing that for a site of lots of small units is a lot more than the surrounding single owner sites which we see being developed now.

I told the directors at the time about this and that I was relieved we didn't have to worry about it! I also committed to them that if the council did approach me to sell, I would ensure that rlab wouldn't have to pay a penny or ever be homeless. So I have zero idea how they have tried to use that issue to justify a massive reserve, or the made up 'legal' excuse not to disclose accounts, whilst at the same time admitting they did disclose the details to some members..... 

If there is to be a reserve, the members should decide how and why, not the directors in secret. It is their money. They should decide what size reserve, what percentage of surplus each month will go in it, what else they might want to spend it on etc. Anything else is not a members organisation.

Tom

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/reading-hackspace/D92E6CC3-7C7B-41D5-A310-7CCE0FC9DE9A%40gmail.com.

--

Tom Allen
+44 7939 025 131

[Vance Briggs]

Tom,

A large number of hackspace members (70+) have now joined the discord server and we will have another push to encourage more to join

The hope was that we could discuss these issues in a slightly less public forum. 

I sent you a link to join yesterday. Any chance you would migrate your conversation to that medium?

Vance

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/reading-hackspace/CACEZB%2BHmj5LqJRtNVnk-_Wz%2BJYdn6Y2Uz%3DJhg1MRB4pVpkFWyQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Tony Summers]

So, does a potential director have to undergo an anonymous back-biting for anyone with an ax to grind while having to respond publicly and then be tried by a committee chosen by the current directors who are being complained about? It doesn't sound a very appealing role

and should not the call for directors and the need to verify that box to vote be in a message to all members instead of only here?

Sent with Proton Mail secure email.

------- Original Message -------

[Andrew]

As there already appears to be some public ax grinding as you called it my proposal was designed to ensure that no party could claim that they have not had the opportunity to express their opinions after the election of new directors. Given the current theme of transparency.

If you reread my proposal the part of the committee explicitly stated that I would ask for volunteers and that the makeup of that committee would be public.

The distribution of official correspondence from the directors is one of the processes that is currently in a handover process, when that is advanced to a sufficient state I will send out a further call for directors. Though I would hope that any member interested would see the communication of a resignation to be encouragement to put themselves forward 

If you have any further concerns about transparency you are welcome to participate directly in the process, though you would first need to become a member of the Hackspace Mr Summers, in addition to RMSL.

BR,

Andrew 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "rLab / Reading's Hackspace" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to reading-hacksp...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/reading-hackspace/KI_mT7nbgmG3J4CRCqUzM1nbng8KKD7ctAWhrYyPsH5lUbkUYJnpdrIZ845YppPnAcMBkvacFRzmCeAiuMocZIWjIJe3v_9TieL9wRHtz5U%3D%40proton.me.

[Stuart Ward]

Richard

OK so I have not being paying enough attention in this area. I withdraw my objection.

Stuart

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/reading-hackspace/51588C81-93F0-4B2A-8A4D-EC2E935DC390%40btinternet.com.

[Andrew]

Tom has in a separate channel requested a public retraction of a statement I previously made in error, so here it is:

In a previous statement by myself as a director I said that the directors were not legally permitted to disclose financial information about RMSL to members, this statement was made on information provided by another and it was my mistake to not review the memorandum of association personally to verify that statement in advance. For that I am sorry. Since this mistake has come to light I have been approached by a member willing to volunteer their time to go through our accounts and assemble a statement of accounts, which I will release to the membership of the Hackspace when it is provided to me.

To address Tom's other recently expressed concern about how much RMSL has in savings: I do not consider this a matter of how the directors are saving money, but in how the membership is spending it, or rather, not spending it.

I try to make it clear during sign-up, but I suppose it is appropriate at this juncture to remind members, you are the ones that decide how the makerspace spends it's money. If you want the makerspace to fund something please assemble a proposal to include: what you are proposing, how it would benefit the makerspace, the sources of any purchase and all other parts and how much this will cost, and finally who will make this happen and where any parts of it will go.

This is not an unreasonable bar to clear, as someone will have to put the effort in to do all of this over the course of any project.

For as long as I have been a director the policy on proposals has been that any director could individually approve a proposal or single expense up to £200, that any larger expense would require a majority of directors to approve. To my knowledge the most recent single expense in excess of £200 was the new planar-thicknesser, and the most recent proposal in excess of £200 was the electronics benches. If anyone remembers other projects please share.

As an example of such a proposal, Peter Jackson discussed with me a new anvil stand, researched designs for such a stand, sources the parts and estimated a total cost. When he brought that proposal to me I offered my opinion on the design, and as a member volunteered my time to receive delivery of parts and assist with assembly.

In my time as a director I have never denied a reasonable proposal, nor received an unreasonable on that has progressed so far as to have a source and cost estimate. Though I recall during sign-up one new member threatened to propose selling half the content of the workshop and spending all our savings on a single extra large machine. If I do receive a proposal of that nature I'll probably reject it. And such a member could always bring it to the rest of the membership at any time to ask for endorsement among the other members.

To summarize my stance: it is not the directors money to spend, it belongs to the membership. And the level of approval required to spend it should be proportional to the amount. If someone spends a few quid replacing consumables, I wouldn't blink. If someone wants to spend £100 to have new filament in stock for the 3d printers I'll ask them to post on the group first asking other members what they want in stock. If someone wants to spend £2000 on a new compressor I would have asked the other directors to weigh in on it, and until there are other directors there's always the discord server to solicit opinions from. And if someone thinks we have £40,000 to much in savings then I suppose it's up to the membership as a whole to decide how it is spent.

Tl;Dr: it gets spent when the membership decides to spend it. And if the membership doesn't decide then it's just going to sit there.

[Keir Hague]

Andrew,

I’ve been watching the emails backwards & forwards over the last few days with some confusion, bemusement & not a little sadness. We all seem to want the same things- a space to make things that we can occasionally be proud of. Can I say thank-you to all of the people past & present who have made that possible.

I have no idea of what is going on in the background, I just know that i want the space as-is to continue.  

How do we move forward from where we are at the moment? Do we need some new directors? Do we need a meeting of members? Whatever is needed, let’s get it sorted so that we can get on with creating a lot of scrap and the occasional gem.

Thank you,

Keir.

Sent from my iPhone

On 13 Mar 2023, at 09:35, Andrew <andrew...@gmail.com> wrote:



To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/reading-hackspace/CANfu%2Bi3jcNGBQjcZ6y5rMebxiJnd%2BGPVY6f6espDuuAwj0QF3Q%40mail.gmail.com.

[mikethebee]

Tony and Mark,

I was sorry to hear of the resignations of the Directors. As a founder member, I would like to express my appreciation for the tremendous work they put in during their time as Directors. I understand that the space faced significant challenges during COVID lockdown closures and that they also had to deal with the stresses on their health and work, yet they showed incredible dedication to the space and its members. Their contributions were significant, particularly inspiring and supporting a broadening of the range of activities undertaken and increasing diversity of membership and activities.

I was surprised and sorry to hear that the decision to resign was influenced by the actions of a few outspoken members. As a fellow member, I want to assure you that your contributions were greatly appreciated, it should never be acceptable for any individual or group to push someone out of their position. I hope that we can take steps to address this issue and ensure that all members feel welcome and respected, and can raise any problems ahead of such escalation.

As the lab transitions to new directors, or closure if it comes to that, I know that your experience and knowledge of the space would be invaluable during this process. I hope you will provide your assistance in guiding the space through this change. I understand that your resignation may have created some uncertainty, and I hope that your help would ensure that the transition is as orderly and smooth as possible.

Once again, thank you for all your dedication and contributions to rLab, and I wish you all the best in your future endeavors, and I hope you will continue to contribute as a member. 

Mike

[Andrew]

Keir,

Thank you for your concern and support, at this point I think the most important thing for the continued function of the Hackspace we all care for is for any and all members with the time and will to contribute to nominate themselves for the position of director, and once volunteers have made themselves known we as a community can move forward.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "rLab / Reading's Hackspace" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to reading-hacksp...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/reading-hackspace/a7faece4-b59f-476b-b0bc-b55656950c6bn%40googlegroups.com.

[Richard Francis]

For what it's worth - as a 'low touch' member - I haven't forgotten (or likely to forget) R-Lab is a great little resource. Broadly, as a low toucher, here are my thoughts:

• We've all had our lives (to a greater or lesser degree) turned upside down since the start of the decade with Covid, the economy et al. This has caused each and every one of us to reflect on our lives and hence (almost invariably) caused turbulence.
• In view of this - and without even attempting to step into micro-politics around R-Lab specifically - people's wants, needs and predispositions have more than likely altered a little since before Covid.
• We have to recognise that the above (alone), will have put a greater than usual strain on the directors (one of whom I recall correctly  was sadly claimed by Covid) and hence made their responsibilities harder to cope with. Add in soaring energy costs, economic climate problems, a surge in 'compliance-related' legislation, Reading council breathing down people's necks for land to develop - I don't think it's been easy at all. Broadly - we owe a debt of gratitude to anyone (past or present) who have stepped up to keep things going. Once or twice I might have had my nose put out of joint if my comments or modus-operandi didn't sit well, but we're all human. I'm thankfully not a grudge bearer, so best just assume someone's had a shit day (as we all do) and move on..
• Fiscally - it's tough managing group money. I don't think directors are acting untoward, perhaps one or two might have swayed the pitch over 'what to put money into and when' more than I have - but hey - they're been around R-Lab more than me.
• I think a lot of people don't understand the ongoing charter well enough. All of this might well be on the web, or in a document - and it's all explained when you join - but over time - I think many develop habits. E.g: 'Oh - I've only used that machine to cut one bit of wood - so I'm not cleaning it' etc. If you work at home - in the shed, or cook a meal in the kitchen - part of the job (time/energy) is clearing up. Or, I come down here more than others - I therefore would like an X, Y or Z in the workspace. Fine, you may well come down more - but out of the hundreds of members - if the machine you want is going to be used by 3 people - it's better you buy it amongst the three of you and keep it offsite than use resources shared by the rest of us to buy it.
• People. In all the years I've been on this planet - people are always your greatest asset and your greatest liability. That'll never change. Any successful anything only flies if people put that entity before themselves. You need not be there all the time to make a difference. If you use it, clean it. If you use it as a paying consumable - chuck some coins (or notes) in the boxes. Don't leave stuff lying around restricting others access. Put notes on stuff saying when you'll be back. If it's out of stock - shout up if it needs replacing. 

As a low touch - I think it would be a shame for it to collapse. If you need help - say so. I do get stacked out a bit - and yes - I tend to come in - use - clean up and go - guilty as charged. However, if I knew you needed help for a couple of hours clearing, re-painting, lifting and shifting - I'm happy to donate some time around keeping infrastructure going. In summary - I feel (and have always felt 80% of people are alright). Those 80% sometimes need a reminder, a nudge, a kind word etc - but they always pull through. The remaining 20% will always make waves, take the piss, put their ego on a pedestal, criticise others everything and make others feel like they have no right to be there. 

I'm hopeful we can weather this. Compared to a lot of other stuff going on out there in the big, bad world at large - it's relatively fixable.

Best - Richard

[Frans Wilbrink]

Nicely worded Richard, couldn't have said it better :)

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/reading-hackspace/a0083ed0-3876-4937-83c7-189316d99c1cn%40googlegroups.com.