New Sam Hillborne sizing advice

[David B]

Hey all, first time posting here. I'm planning on grabbing a Sam Hillborne frameset when they go on sale this month. It'll be my first Rivendell. I decided on the Hillborne as a replacement for my 56cm Cross Check, which has never been comfortable for me. The short headtube puts the bars too far below my saddle.

I have a pair of Billie bars I'd like to put on the Hillborne for daily commuting, grocery getting, and some light off road riding. I'd also like to have the option to use drop bars at some point down the line.

I went to the Rivendell shop a few weeks ago to test ride a few bikes and get sized. I'm 6' with a 92 PBH (long legs, short torso), and based on the Sam geo chart, my PBH puts me firmly in the size 60 Sam range. They didn't have a 60 Hillborne around, so I instead rode a 57 Sam and a couple of 61.5 Homers with different cockpit setups. 

• The 57 Sam was set up with wide, swept back bars (Ron's Ortho bars) and was comfortable. We did have to raise the seatpost up pretty high to get the saddle in a good position.
• The first 61.5 Homer was set up with Billie bars and was also comfortable. The saddle was pretty close to the top tube, however - there was maybe a little less than a fistful of seatpost showing.
• The second 61.5 Homer with drops made me feel a little stretched out. The saddle was raised up higher than ideal for my height, but the bike belonged to a staff member who wasn't around that day, and so we didn't adjust the saddle position. Part of me thinks it might have worked with a lower saddle, shorter stem, and higher bars, but I'm not totally sure.

I left feeling like a 60 Sam would work for me, but I'm now second guessing whether it makes more sense to go down to the 57 for a shorter top tube length. However, the size 57 Sam has a suggested PBH range of 86-89, which is 3cm lower than my PBH of 92. 

Could anyone share if you've had a similar experience being in-between sizes for a Sam Hillborne, and how the size you chose worked out? Or better yet, is there anyone near Berkeley who has a 57cm or 60cm Hillborne you'd let me test ride to nail down my size? I'd be happy to buy you a beer or some other beverage as a thank you!

David

Berkeley, CA

[Tim Bantham]

My recommendation is to go with the 60 Sam.  You said you want to ride with swept back bars and use it for mostly commuting and general riding. Based on your described use case I'd say go with the 60 all day long. If someday you want to ride the Sam with drops you could still do so with a short stem.

My PBH is 93.5. I ride a 62 Sam and a 58 MIT Homer. The only reason I sized down was because my focus for the Homer was going to be a drop bar road bike for sporty riding. The 61.5 Homer would have been too much reach for my situation.

[Stephen]

For your reference I’m about 6’1 with a 92 pbh and i ride a 60 appaloosa w/swept backs, and would not want to go smaller. However i have no interest in putting drops on that bike, I’m guessing sam might have a slightly shorter top tube than Joe. hesitant to tell you what you should do, hopefully someone has something you can test ride. 

[Johnny Alien]

I find Rivendells sizing based on PBH to oversimplify getting a good bike fit. They are very smart but they also have their preferences and I think most of the time their suggestions lean on that preference more than it should. The smaller size will be way easier to fit with drops if you really think that will be something you want to do. I agree that you "could" make a larger one work too but IMO its easier to get a sweptback setup to work on a smaller frame than it is to get a dropdown setup to work on a frame thats a touch big. If it were me and I rode a 57 and was comfortable on it with sweptback bars then I would go for that one. BUT the best situation is to find a 60 and give it a ride.

[Bones]

I’m 6’1 with a 91 PBH. My 60 Appaloosa fits perfectly with swept back bars. I had a 61.5 Homer (newer one, for which the top tube is really long) and it was way too much reach for drops for me (long legs, short torso, not particularly flexible). I replaced the 61.5 Homer with a 58 and the fit is perfect with 48cm noodles and a 7cm Tallux. I also have a 61 Roadini which fits well, but there is almost too much stack, as there is not much stem showing. I guess to summarize, it’s not always easy to find a bike in Rivs’s lineup that can accommodate both swept back bars and drops interchangeably. If you’re cool with drops on a stubby stem and less standover, size up. If you’re cool with swept backs on a long stem and more seatpost showing, size down. 

Bones

[awen...@gmail.com]

Hi David,

Bike Insights can compare these two sizes side-by-side for you: https://bikeinsights.com/compare?geometries=638a1581423463001c996235,638a1581423463001c996236,

The 60cm Sam is 30mm taller in stack than the 57, but only 5mm longer in reach. If you had to raise the saddle and bars by a lot on the 57, then maybe the 60 would work better for you.

Hope this helps,

Andrew

On Monday, May 6, 2024 at 2:06:45 AM UTC-4 David B wrote:

[David B]

Thank you for the responses, everyone. I'm leaning towards getting a size 60 based on all of the feedback. I do envision running the Hillborne mostly with flat or swept bars, and so it makes sense to prioritize that with the sizing.

Andrew, your observation comparing the stack and reach of the two sizes is really helpful. I'm thinking the added reach/effective top tube length is small enough that I could compensate for it with a shorter stem length.

Really appreciate all of your help. Would still love to test ride a 57 or 60 if anyone in the East Bay has one.

David

Berkeley, CA

[Ryan Bolesta]

Hi David,

I am 6'1 with a 91cm PBH and ride a 60cm Sam from the most recent batch from 2022.

Overall I'm pretty happy with the size, but can't help but think about how I'd feel in the 57cm. I've never felt "uncomfortable" on the bike, it's definitely the comfiest bike I've ever owned, but it does feel a little bit too big at times.

The two handlebar configurations I've had:

Albatross with a 100mm stem: This felt really good with my hands on the grips, but I always felt way too stretched out when using the hooks on the front of the bar. I probably could have swapped to a shorter stem if I was still using this configuration.

Nitto M137 (Drop Bar) with a 60mm stem: This is my current setup, and while it isn't bad, it isn't the most ideal either. I switched to drops as I started doing more off-road descents in the area and wanted more hand positions with access to the brake levers. I find it uncomfortable when having my hands in the drops or hoods for any extended period of time. I'm typically resting my hands right before the hoods (the "ramps" or "corners" is maybe what this means in drop-bar speak) or on the tops next to the stem.  I've also done a little bit of finagling to shift the hoods closer to my hands at the expense of having the brake levers a bit further away from my hands when in the drops.

I don't think either setup was bad, just not ideal. The drop bar setup I currently have has been used on several loaded bikepacking trips, and countless 20-60 mile gravel rides in Colorado with huge elevation changes, and I've never once felt like I was in significant pain from the bike (other than my Brooks B17, which I feel hopeless in breaking it in), which makes me think that I can fix some of these issues with minor adjustments or a different drop bar. 

I can't offer any perspectives on the 57cm Sam, since I've never ridden one. Also, the two bars I've ran are not as swept back as other Riv offerings. I think there are plenty of bar/stem combos I've yet to try which would be perfect for my frame size. Overall I love the bike, and love the versatility. I originally built the bike to be my commuter and all-rounder, and have since transitioned it into a more-than-capable gravel bike (that I tend to underbike into some chunkier singletrack by accident at times) with a simple bar swap and adding wider knobbier tires. 

When you rode the 61.5 Homer with the Billie bars, did you try other hand positions than the grips?

Hope this helps!

Ryan

Boulder, CO

[Collin A]

David,

You are in Berkeley, you should BART over to RIv World HQ and test one out on the local loop up in shell ridge (its dry and perfect riding conditions right now!). Last I remember there is a 57 demo with billie/alba, but might be worth calling them first before making the appointment.

Collin, also in Berkeley, but with an 81cm PBH.

[Grady Wright]

Please report back when you get your new sam or the chance to ride the different sizes. I am wanting to get a sam for a dedicated drop bar rando bike. I am  6'1" PBH 90 and my 60cm Appaloosa fits just how I like with a wavy style handlebar. I'm thinking about buying a 60cm SH from my local shop but a little concerned about it being big for me using drops. Would love to hear about your experience.

[David B]

I did end up going back to the Riv shop last week to test ride a few more bikes and nail down my size. Everyone I've talked to at the shop is in consensus that the 60 Hillborne is the best fit for me, and I'd say I definitely agree with them. I test rode a 57 Hillborne and 64 Homer, both set up with swept bars.

Here is what the 57 Hillborne looked like with a saddle height of 82cm. It felt a lot smaller than I remembered. 

Here is what the 64 Homer looked like with the same saddle height. I was really comfortable in this setup, but I had zero standover clearance and I don't think drop bars would have worked as well.

I can't say for sure whether the 60 Hillborne will be a perfect fit, but out of the sizes available, it definitely seems like the best option for my PBH and height. I ended up ordering a size 60 frameset and will report back with an update when I finish building it up.

[Grady Wright]

Thank you for the pictures and stating the saddle hight! Super helpful. With my saddle hight being 79 or 80 that's more post than I want. Feeling good about buying the 60cm as well. 

[Tom]

I'm 6' tall with a 89.5 PBH.  Someone here posted that, if on the fence size-wise, they usually size down for a drop bar setup and size up for a swept-back bar setup.  That is also my experience.  

For those close to my height and PBH, the following list of Rivs, sizes, and bar setups has worked for me.  I'll happy to answer any questions you may have about them:

- 58 Sam: drop (Noodle -- best) & swept (Albatross -- a little cramped)

- 59 Clem H: swept (Albatross, Jones, Bullmoose, Losco)

- 61 Roadini: drop (stretching it, 5cm stem) & swept (Albatross (regular & inverted), Jitensha, Ahearne+Map, Wavie)

- 61.5 Homer: swept (Albatross, Jitensha, Wavie, Ahearne+Map)

- 62 Saluki: swept (Wavie, Albatross?, Ahearne+Map)

- 62 SimpleOne: swept (Albatross (regular & inverted))

- 62 Sam: swept (Albatross, Jitensha)

- 64 Atlantis - Toyo:  swept (Ahearne+Map, Albatross)

Currently I only own the 62 Sam and the 59 Clem H (and an unbuilt 58 Hunq) in swept bar config's.  Because I wanted something that would comfortably accommodate a drop bar (Noodle or a B135 Grand Raundoneur), and knowing I could play with stem length and dial it in, I put my name on one of the new 57 Sam's...which has a similar-enough geo to the previous 58 Sam with a Noodle bar I used to own.

[J S]

If I listened to rivendell on what size stem to use it would quite a bit longer. I opted fot a shorter stem and that works for me. Maybe you should call Rivendell to see that the stem length was on the bike you ride, then go down a smidge on a 60 to bring the bars closer. I think I use an 8cm stem on my Hillborne, the folks at Riv suggested at least am 11. I know my body. Good luck. 

On Monday, May 20, 2024 at 10:55:25 PM UTC-4 gre...@gmail.com wrote:

[Tom]

Make that 90.5 PBH.  

[Brent Eastman]

I'm 6'1 with longer arms and I LOVE my 57 sam, fit's like a glove. I have Billie bars on there now. 

My good friends are also both 6'1 and ride 57 sams. The most recent one was a 2024 and Riv staff suggested 60cm, he went with the 57 with albatross bars, he's thrilled. 

On Sunday, May 5, 2024 at 11:06:45 PM UTC-7 David B wrote:

[Brent Eastman]

Mine is 2017 orange. Ryan’s 2018 blue. Jake’s 2024 bronzey. 

Another note I forgot to mention is size matters depending where you’re gonna ride it. I ride mine on trails and single track bordering on MTB territory. Sometimes that leads to hopping off saddle. If you’re at all worried about your crotch meeting the top tube, go 57. I also like running bigger tires, the 57 lets me run 47mm tires (easily) and that raises the standover height. Even my Roadini is a 57, personally I would not even consider a 60. 

On Sunday, May 5, 2024 at 11:06:45 PM UTC-7 David B wrote: