Touring Front, Neo-Retro Back?

[Matthew Williams]

In this build, the brakes appear to be Paul touring cantis up front, and neo retros in the rear. 

I've seen this setup elsewhere, and I'm curious: what is the reason for this setup? What are its advantages and disadvantages? Is the setup easier to maintain, does it have better braking power, or is it just a personal preference?

https://www.rivbike.com/blogs/news/braxtons-riv-custom-pre-fenders-and-lights

[Steven Sweedler]

I thought it was so the rear brakes would not scratch your  legs,  Steve

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/722EEA34-B67E-4B9A-A878-B9C504E97971%40gmail.com.

--

Steven Sweedler
Plymouth, New Hampshire

[Artaud]

I have that set up on my Romanceur.

I find that the Neo Retros have better stopping power, but my heels would hit them if they were set up in the rear. The Tourings work well enough, though, if you prefer your front and rear sets to match.

Denis, in NC

[Victor Hanson]

Sir, 

The neo-retro is a very powerful brake.   You  can use is the rear, but it will over power very thin seat stays, thus you need a brake booster.  

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/497194fa-c600-4b0e-b172-7e6c5e5cf854n%40googlegroups.com.

--

VIctor R. Hanson

Gen Mgr

Schmier Industrial Properties

o:  510-652-0800

c:  510-207-8593

[lconley]

I have the same arrangement on my Bombadil. It was for pannier clearance as much as heel/leg clearance - my Bombadil is a later, longer chainstay version with less heel/leg clearance issues. I had originally bought the brakes for the Hubbuhubbuh, but changed it to Paul V-brakes and moved the Paul Cantis to the Bombadil.

Laing

[iamkeith]

I have that setup on a bike.   Like others have said, heel clearance was the original consideration.  But the wide profile neo retro has more modulation/subtlety to it, which is good for a front wheel.  The low profile touring is more on/off binary, which is ok for a rear wheel.  But, as others have said, the neo retro is quite strong and I HAVE done an over-the-bars endo on that bike as a result.

[sam.per...@gmail.com]

A local mechanic reasoned that the touring canti has the same mechanical advantage as the neo retros that were modeled after vintage canti’s , the implication is they are equal. Something about the neo’s being more sensitive to brake ware.   Can anyone verify  this?

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 17, 2021, at 9:43 AM, iamkeith <keith...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have that setup on a bike.   Like others have said, heel clearance was the original consideration.  But the wide profile neo retro has more modulation/subtlety to it, which is good for a front wheel.  The low profile touring is more on/off binary, which is ok for a rear wheel.  But, as others have said, the neo retro is quite strong and I HAVE done an over-the-bars endo on that bike as a result.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/23ec8c62-24a9-4278-869c-172c230dc42fn%40googlegroups.com.

[James / Analog Cycles]

Neo Retros are not as powerful as Touring cantis, because you can not get the straddle wire close to 90 degrees in relation to the brake arm.  That angle is the key to high mechanical advantage.  See: V brakes.  The idea that they're stronger is simply based on lever feel.  They feel firmer, which is an indicator of lower mechanical advantage.  If you have ever set up Cantis with V brake levers, you have felt this.  It feels great in the stand, barely works out of the stand.  

Neo retros exist currently for two reasons:  Classic cross racing bikes, where mud clearance is critical.  High profile canti pads sit further from the rim, better for mud to pass by.  And because people like the look.  Not because it's a better brake.  

From Sheldon Brown: 

"Feel" vs. Function

With automobile brakes, a nice "hard" pedal feel is a sign that the brakes are in good condition. A soft, "spongy" feel at the brake pedal is a sign of trouble, perhaps air in the hydraulic lines. This is not the case with bicycle brakes. A hard, crisp feel to the brakes on a bicycle may be a sign that the brakes don't have much mechanical advantage. You squeeze them until the brake shoes hit the rim, then they stop. Brakes with a high mechanical advantage will feel "spongy" by comparison, because the large amount of force they deliver to the brake shoes will squash the shoes against the rim, deforming them temporarily under pressure. You can feel this deformation in your fingers. The brakes with the rock-hard feel may seem nice on the work stand or the showroom floor, but when it comes to making the bike actually stop, the spongy set-up will do the job better, with less finger pressure and greater margin for safety in wet conditions.

Definitions

For purposes of this article, I have defined 1 distance, 2 arms, and 3 angles as shown in the illustration. Pivot-Cable distance (PC)The shortest distance from the center of the pivot to the line of the transverse cable.In the case of low-profile brakes, this is the shortest distance from the pivot to the imaginary line extending from the transverse cable.

 

 

Types of Cantilevers

Conventional cantilevers fall into three types, defined by their cantilever angle:

• Wide-profile cantilevers have a cantilever angle much greater than 90 degrees. The best example of this type is the old Mafac cantilevers, in which the anchor arm actually sloped downward from the boss in some installations. This design is now pretty much obsolete. Wide-profile cantilevers have rather low mechanical advantage, and work well only with levers with a high mechanical advantage.
• Medium-profile cantilevers have a cantilever angle of around 90 degrees. Most late-1980's cantilevers belong to this family. Medium-profile cantilevers are very forgiving and give excellent all-around performance with a wide range of set-ups.

He also talks about low profile cantis, but those are super rare these days.  Paul used to make one, the best low profile canti I have used, called the stop lite.  

When in doubt, consult Sheldon.  

Best, James 

Analog Cycles / Tanglefoot Cycles / Discord Components / Fifth Season Canvas

[Frank Brose]

Those are neo retro up front and touring in the rear. I have the same set up on three different bikes. Here's a link to Pauls and you can see the difference.

https://www.paulcomp.com/product-category/components/brakes/cantilever-brakes/

[Davey Struthers]

Yep, thigh, calf and heel clearance. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/CALimyf%2B-wdkjSGrwbV6sLNU%2Bh28LtBY2y-TRMua_BH1rU3QitQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Matthew Williams]

Hi everyone, based on the brake arrangement, I have a question.

But first, some background: I’m making some changes/upgrades so my bike will be better equipped for day rides, multi-day trips, and light touring.

Here are some of the considerations:

1. Bike is a Joe Appaloosa
2. Wheels will be Atlas 700c with Panaracer Gravel Kings.
3. My rides are almost all on asphalt or concrete with a few dirt trails or fire roads.
4. Bike currently has V-brakes.
5. I am planning to add a rear rack with panniers, no front rack.
6. I weigh about 165. 
7. I’ll be carrying some gear but I won’t be overloading the bike.

Question: Should I switch to cantilevers, or keep the existing V-brakes?

[Collin A]

Personally, one of the few/only reasons I would change from v to canti would be to use short pull drop bar levers that fit my tiny hands better....that and visuals, canti brakes just look nicer to my eye.

But given your circumstances, it doesn't seem worth it to go canti unless you specifically want to do it because you want to.

Collin, purposefully on purpose, sometimes, in Sacramento

[Philip Williamson]

You should keep the v brakes.

They already are on the bike, they’re quite powerful, they are more out of the way of panniers, and aren’t affected by rack-top stuff pushing on a cable. 

Philip

Sonoma County, Calif

On Saturday, October 29, 2022 at 4:09:17 PM UTC-7 Matthew Williams wrote:

[Garth]

I've used cantilevers since the early 80's and while there are distinctions among brake models, how it is set up, the frame mounts themselves, brake cable and housing setup, and finally the riders own sensibilities, all play their part in the experience of braking. In other words, there's no putting a specific brake in a "box", saying it is this or that, and that's all there is too it. There's just too many variables to consider to distill it down into a box of words. 

That said, I love me some low profile Suntour XC Pro canti's. For that matter, I love any canti that uses full post pads, the original type. I bought some low profile Dia Compe DC 988's a while ago and while they are quite similar to the Sun Tour, they're not quite as easily adjusted for the toe in as the XC Pro. Both come stock with road sized centered-in-the post pads, by far my favorite, and both brakes readily clear the stays. I don't why Riv laments there aren't any cantilevers that open fully anymore as these Dia Compe 988's are right in there catalog and readily available. They're popular with BMX riders too. Even with wonky offset post Koolstop pads they can be shortened easily to more road size. 

So while I've never used any Paul brake, regardless of the type it still comes down to how the rider installs and applies it. That's the beauty of cantilevers, they allow for the lightest of touches to feather the brake as desired. It's not just on or off, one way only,.....so saying one is more/less powerful the other is irrelevant when applied with some intelligence. 

[RichS]

Hi Matthew,

I agree with Phillip and Collin; why switch to cantis when your existing V brakes appear to work fine? If it's the desire to experiment or just make a change, well, we've all been down that road — and I'm often on it!  A friend of mine has a canti braked Appaloosa (very nice bike!). However, I can see V brakes looking and working just fine on it. Good luck with your decision.

Best,

Rich in ATL

[Esteban]

Back when cyclocross race bikes had rim brakes, the mullet retro-front/touring-back was a preferred set-up so that the retros would't stab the rider when they had the bike on their shoulder. I've always just copied this stylistically when setting a bike up this way - just to try to be cool. 

[Greg J]

None of your 7 considerations calls for switching your brakes.  If you're satisfied with the v-brakes you currently have, don't change them.  

To switch them out, depending on what you currently have, you may need new levers, new cables/housing, new cantis, front cable stop, lots of fiddling around to dial them in, and at the end of the day likely won't have any better-functioning brakes.  The only real benefit that some canti brakes could have over v-brakes is better modulation, but that depends on so much---the specific parts, set up, and your sensitivity to such things.  Don't forget that v-brakes were considered an improvement over cantis because they're easier to set up and are generally more powerful.

Of course, if you have the time/parts/money, go for it!  

Greg

On Saturday, October 29, 2022 at 4:09:17 PM UTC-7 Matthew Williams wrote: