Rear derailleur to shift 10-speed close-ratio cassette with Bar Cons

[Patrick Moore]

What do you recommend for a rear derailleur for the following preferences, listed in order of importance:

1. Shifts nicely with Bar Cons (yes, the Suntour ones) over 10 properly spaced 10-speed-specific cogs (using 11 speed chain, if that makes a difference). The rings are 42/28, and I let the chain sag in the small/smaller cogs because I don't use those combinations.

2. Shifts nicely over a close-ratio cassette: 13-25 (....20-22-25).

3. Is reasonably durable and reliable.

4. Is silver of, if black, then not horribly ugly.

I've been shifting a 8-speed-era Dura Ace rd over the cassette, and it works very well except that I belatedly discovered that the inner cage plate rubs the spokes in the small ring/big cog combo. I want to use that combination.

The Bar Cons pull the DA 7410 (I think) rd over the 10 cogs with about 90* of movement, and there is perhaps more lever travel available.

I had a very nice Miche road rd about 5 years ago that might have worked, but an errant stick broke it. I don't know if Miche road rds are still the same.

Ideas?

Or perhaps someone has a nice condition, silver, 8-speed XT rd to sell?

Thanks.

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[lconley]

Check the derailleur hanger alignment. The inner plate should not rub the spokes if the derailleur hanger alignment is correct.

Laing

[Ted Durant]

On Thursday, September 10, 2020 at 9:52:10 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:

What do you recommend for a rear derailleur for the following preferences, listed in order of importance:

1. Shifts nicely with Bar Cons (yes, the Suntour ones) over 10 properly spaced 10-speed-specific cogs (using 11 speed chain, if that makes a difference). The rings are 42/28, and I let the chain sag in the small/smaller cogs because I don't use those combinations.

2. Shifts nicely over a close-ratio cassette: 13-25 (....20-22-25).

3. Is reasonably durable and reliable.

4. Is silver of, if black, then not horribly ugly.

 

Shimano rear derailleurs are pretty good for use with BarCons, as they have a fairly high actuation ratio, meaning more derailleur movement for a given amount of cable pull. The only thing better would be a SunTour. Forget about Campy or SRAM. Modern derailleur philosophy is moving toward lower actuation ratios because of the need for more tolerance with indexing on very closely spaced cogs. My problem with using BarCons (or Riv Silver) on narrow cassettes is that the ratchet clicks act a bit like indexing clicks, but they're almost never in the right place so my hand-brain connection gets flustered and I spend a lot of time trying to get the derailleur centered on a cog. With a SunTour rear derailleur, it's almost exactly 2 clicks of a BarCon per cog on a Shimano/SRAM 10-speed road cassette.

I have a SunTour XC Pro MD on my Riv MTB. It has almost enough wrap to work with a 46-36-26 front and 11-28 rear (39 teeth). It shifts brilliantly with Shimano 9-speed bar ends and a Shimano-SRAM 8-speed cassette. It's a nice combination of polished silver and black, and is solidly built (and pretty heavy, as a result). There are shorter and longer cage versions floating around out there.

Ted Durant

Milwaukee, WI, USA

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, Laing. The shop did find that it was bent, but said (but only in a brief phone message) that simply fixing that would not fix the rub; must go over and ask for clarification.

I do hope it's merely a matter of replacing the hangar (it's a bolt on).

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[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, Ted; good to know that I should focus on Shimano.

But question for clarification: will even modern Shimano road derailleurs have sufficiently high actuation ratios for a bar con that has at most 120* of lever travel (not as much as Silvers, but I prefer the bar cons)?

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[Ted Durant]

On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 11:06:23 AM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:

But question for clarification: will even modern Shimano road derailleurs have sufficiently high actuation ratios for a bar con that has at most 120* of lever travel (not as much as Silvers, but I prefer the bar cons)?

According to my calcs, the BarCon pulls 25mm of cable in 25 clicks (1mm per click). A Shimano 6-10 sp rear derailleur needs 20.7mm of cable pull to cover a 10-speed cassette, so the BarCon should work. 

Ted Durant

Milwaukee, WI USA 

[Patrick Moore]

This is good to know; thanks. So basically, anything up to 10 speed but forget 11 or 12. 

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[Ted Durant]

On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 11:26:50 AM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:

This is good to know; thanks. So basically, anything up to 10 speed but forget 11 or 12. 

I show 21.5 and 22.7mm of cable travel for Shimano 11-speed road and mountain, respectively, so it should still work. I don't have a number for 12-speed. Based on a quick online search, it appears the 12-speed Shimano is the same total derailleur movement as 11-speed mountain, so that should work, too. But that's probably going to make full use of the BarCon travel. In theory. And you know what they say about theory and practice ...

[Dave Grossman]

I recently had chain failure on my Hunq in a 9 speed triple setup. I have Silver barcons, always fricrion (FRICTION4LYFE).  I decided to rebuild with garage bin parts and put on a Race Face NW 38T on the Sugino XD, an 11-32 Sram 1070 cassette, and Sram 1050 chain.  The results have been perfect.  I find the new 10s setup to be smooth, and for my Northern Illinois riding the gearing is perfect.  I also just got used to a worn noisy chain, and the stealthy drivetrain makes me happy.

[Dave Grossman]

I left out the important part.  I did not make a single adjustment to my 9 speed Deore RD M952.  It is the stock silver one from Riv.  Shifts perfectly in friction with 10 speeds.

[Patrick Moore]

Dave: What is the derailleur?

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[Patrick Moore]

Answered ...

[Patrick Moore]

More good news, then; thanks.

I'm going to look for a medium cage rd to replace the old Dura Ace, which I chose for "style" -- tho' it used to work well. But I really should have a bit more chain takeup for the 42/28 chainset.

Just talked to LBS who say that they straightened the hangar and the rd still rubs, but it looks as if the rd itself is bent. We'll see.

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[Bill Schairer]

Patrick,

I was running a 9sp 12-25 cassette with a Suntour Superbe Pro short cage and a 46/38/28 with down tube shifters and the derailleur is well named.  To my amazement I could run the entire cassette on each chainring with only the slightest sag small/small though in practice I don’t do that.  This appears to be way outside spec.

I then swapped wheels and crank and am now running a 14-28 7 sp freewheel with a 50/45/26 crank.  It does not like the 26/28 combo and doesn’t wrap enough chain in general on the 26t ring but is rideable. I will probably swap out the 26 for a 28 or a 30.

I am super pleased with the Superbe.  Though I haven’t ridden it with 10sp or barcons I have no reason to believe it wouldn’t be wonderful with both.  Since mounting it only recently I read on Disraeli Gears that some consider this derailleur to be the best shifting friction derailleur of all time.  I don’t have nearly enough experience to make such a claim myself but can well imagine it might be true.

Bill S