A Tale of Two Clems

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

Hi Friends,

I inherited a first gen Clementine in a pretty aqua color this summer. I took to it like a duck to water, and after ironing out a few details (those awful Sunrace shifters, Kenda tires, and the old brake pads that were speckling my legs with black dots) I became completely devoted to it. I loved the fatter tires, the step-through frame, the luxurious long chainstays and being just a tad more upright. The Betty Foy is still a dear, but the Clementine is just a little more comfortable and a little more practical, even if she isn’t the rare beauty that a Betty is.

So, when a Clem L from Riv’s most recent batch came up for sale, I took note. I decided to call myself #theclemcollector and purchased it. It’s the blue color, and no photo has ever done this paint justice. It is the most alluring blue-green, shot through with glimmer like sunlight in ocean water. It has all the cream accents I’ve never had but always wanted and my all-time favorite heart seat lug. 

I mean REALLY. 

Anyway, I picked it up from the shop and put it on the Hollywood rack on the van. To my surprise, the trays (previously set up for the Clementine) were too close together, and the bar that presses on the top tube and secures the bike suddenly worked. My Clementine top tube was too low for that rack, and I had to do ridiculous hacks that would horrify all of you and that I won’t trouble you with here. Hmm. Well, that’s odd, I thought. I looked at the two bikes side by side. The new Clem L looked lithe and slender and a little sexy, and the Clementine looked like a big-boned milkmaid gal. Surely it was a trick of that magic new paint job and I was imagining it. It’s the same bike!

I rode the blue Clem to school with the boys the next day and I noticed I was not as upright, nor were those bars as close as I was used to. Same Bosco bars, same stem, same saddle and saddle position, totally different feel. 

I was shocked to realize - this is just not the same bike as the Clementine. I don’t really remember anyone else bringing this to light. I do know that there were small changes made to the Clem frames over time, like taking wider tires, and a small lengthening of chainstays, or so I heard. But I didn’t expect the bike to be this different. Oh, it’s wonderful alright, like Rivendells are, but it’s going to take some fiddling with to get it the way I’d like. I did some crude measuring and it appears there’s an inch more to the new Clem’s chainstays and maybe 2 inches longer from bars to saddle. Which explains why I feel I’m in a more aggressive position. And sure enough, those tubes ARE more slender on the new Clem L - I measured! 

I’m curious if anyone else feels the new and old Clems are different species and wants to weigh in. I wonder if I could have even sized down in the new bike; both bikes are 52s. I really am enjoying the bike; but if I’m being honest with you, I still stubbornly like how the Clementine fit me. The aesthetics of the blue Clem are superior - cream accents, blue paint job, prettier seat lug and thinner tubes...but the Clementine fit me a little better. And yet, I still will mostly likely sell it because...I have 4 Clems in my garage, though only one is extra, I promise.

Signed,

#theclemcollector

****Pictured, the monochromatic Clem L with its rider, matching it in varying shades of blue, a photo trying catch the magic quality of the paint, and the Betz and Clem L with their gorgeous heart seat lugs.*******

[Leah Peterson]

I don’t know why photos post sideways. I’ll try again and maybe add one new one while I’m at it.

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 8, 2019, at 4:26 PM, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Ian A]

A great story and congratulations on the newest acquisition. Once you get the blue Clem set up just right so it fits perfectly, it's bound to become your new favourite.

I once bought a used bike which felt all wrong when riding it home. After changing the bars and saddle, the bicycle felt like part of me, it fit so well. Complete luck on my part, as I had no experience with fitting a bicycle. Sometimes magic happens.

IanA Alberta Canada

[Garth]

  

Yes they are considerably different Leah in that they are as you found out, considerably longer in the front overall.  I noticed it in the first email photo of Grants new blue 59cm Clem-L(he formerly rode a 52) and called Will @ Riv to get the specs and that confirmed it. While I knew that would be great for someone tall like myself, and prefers a more leaning forward position, other people who have Clems may not like it without some re-adjustments.  

I can't tell what length/height stem you have, but obviously one that offers a shorter overall reach will help. The shortness can be done with various angle and lengths, meaning a 80mm stem that rises say 25 degrees(above flat level) like a Dirt Drop will have a shorter overall reach(flat level) than one that lowers by 17 degrees, like a Tallux, at the same bar height.  

[Leah Peterson]

Ian - thank you! I hope my experience mirrors yours. I’m working on it!

Garth, thank you for confirming the differences I suspected! I did order a new stem; I think it’s a Nitto Technomic 90 mm, and I’m really hoping that brings the bars sufficiently closer. I think the rest of the bike geometry will be fine, or at least I’ll make myself decide that it is. It’s a beautiful bike. 

I am very curious why Grant decided to change the geometry. I thought the Clementine was perfect, though maybe a bit stout. Maybe someone on here knows. I do think the old geometry was better for women, as we tend to be longer in the legs and shorter in the torso (definitely true of me). I miss seeing Clementine on the frame, too. 

Leah

Sent from my iPad

On Nov 9, 2019, at 2:48 AM, Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:



  

Yes they are considerably different Leah in that they are as you found out, considerably longer in the front overall.  I noticed it in the first email photo of Grants new blue 59cm Clem-L(he formerly rode a 52) and called Will @ Riv to get the specs and that confirmed it. While I knew that would be great for someone tall like myself, and prefers a more leaning forward position, other people who have Clems may not like it without some re-adjustments.  

I can't tell what length/height stem you have, but obviously one that offers a shorter overall reach will help. The shortness can be done with various angle and lengths, meaning a 80mm stem that rises say 25 degrees(above flat level) like a Dirt Drop will have a shorter overall reach(flat level) than one that lowers by 17 degrees, like a Tallux, at the same bar height.  

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[David Carner]

I don't claim to "know", but I suspect it has to do with the Clem now being considered part of the Hillibike stable.

My crude measurements on a new 52 compared to the numbers in the geometry chart on the frame page are:  Effective top tube has increased 3 cm. (61 to 64), front center by 7 cm. (65.3 to 72+), chain stay by 2.5 cm. (52 to 54.5). Garth, is that in the ballpark of what Will told you?

David

On Saturday, November 9, 2019 at 10:05:03 AM UTC-6, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

Ian - thank you! I hope my experience mirrors yours. I’m working on it!

Garth, thank you for confirming the differences I suspected! I did order a new stem; I think it’s a Nitto Technomic 90 mm, and I’m really hoping that brings the bars sufficiently closer. I think the rest of the bike geometry will be fine, or at least I’ll make myself decide that it is. It’s a beautiful bike. 

I am very curious why Grant decided to change the geometry. I thought the Clementine was perfect, though maybe a bit stout. Maybe someone on here knows. I do think the old geometry was better for women, as we tend to be longer in the legs and shorter in the torso (definitely true of me). I miss seeing Clementine on the frame, too. 

Leah

Sent from my iPad

On Nov 9, 2019, at 2:48 AM, Garth <gar...@gmail.com> wrote:



  

Yes they are considerably different Leah in that they are as you found out, considerably longer in the front overall.  I noticed it in the first email photo of Grants new blue 59cm Clem-L(he formerly rode a 52) and called Will @ Riv to get the specs and that confirmed it. While I knew that would be great for someone tall like myself, and prefers a more leaning forward position, other people who have Clems may not like it without some re-adjustments.  

I can't tell what length/height stem you have, but obviously one that offers a shorter overall reach will help. The shortness can be done with various angle and lengths, meaning a 80mm stem that rises say 25 degrees(above flat level) like a Dirt Drop will have a shorter overall reach(flat level) than one that lowers by 17 degrees, like a Tallux, at the same bar height.  

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[Joe Bernard]

The number I got from Leah for her newer Clem was 62cm, which is significantly stretched from her first edition. I think (hope) the stem swap will solve it 🤞

[Garth]

    Yes David thats in the ballpark.  I only inquired about the 59, which is now spec'd @ 69.5 degree heat tube angle, 68.5cm effective TT and a 75cm front-center. the seat tube angle is the same 71.5. Obviously the effective reach, measured horizontally from the vertical center BB up, to the center top of the head tube, has increased notably.

These dimensions are similar to the new Gus/Susie frames, though personally I prefer it's higher and elegant swoop-tube, plus they offer a higher head tube and more water bottle options besides the obvious larger tire options. 

[PaulS]

Shouldn’t be a big deal to “fix.” Just get a 20mm shorter stem, scootch the saddle forward a little bit. Good to go.

[Fullylugged]

"I am very curious why Grant decided to change the geometry. "

Leah, that is always how it goes with Riv. If you see something you really like, buy it, because the next shipment may be different. It may be "better" or you may prefer the former. Hard to know. Designs are always being tweaked, or revised due to supply chain availability. I have sent 2 friends to RBW for Clems. One has the early green Clementine and loves it, the other is getting the new Clem L in blue this coming week, and I will be assembling it. I suspect the new owner will love hers too. Prior to that, I sort of influenced another local to get an Yves Gomez that almost never gets ridden. I'm 1st in line to buy it if it ever comes up for sale as I prefer the earlier RBW layouts to the current ones. It is just a matter of personal preference, I don't think there is a "better" or "worse." They all ride like Rivendells.

Tailwinds

Bruce

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

Well, I’m hoping it’s an easy fix with my new stem. I tried the saddle trick and it felt all wrong, so I shoved it back on the rails again. There’s so much I love about the blue bike (which I’m calling a Clementine when I unload the real Clementine) so when I get it dialed in, it will really be something. I ordered the Nitto Basket Rack and am excited to see the blue bike with some new and original bling. I’m not in the habit of getting new bikes, but these Clems fell into my hands this year and their presence is really making me evaluate what it is I think I like in a bicycle. I used to think I could only like *one* bike - the Betty Foy I’ve been pedaling since 2012. I really like the Clems, and when the new Cheviot comes out, I do plan to purchase one of those, painted shimmery cranberry red, and then I’ll be done bike shopping for the rest of my days.

Unless there’s an anniversary mixte. Then all bets are off.

FullyLugged, yes, I suppose you are right. Buy what you like because it may be gone. I do want to hear how your friend likes her new True Blue Clem. Let us know!

[Joe Bernard]

I remember when I bought my first Riv in 2003, a brand new Romulus. It was the only bike I would ever need! 😂

[Melanie]

Once the needs are filled, the wants take over.

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

Joe - I can’t stop laughing. 😂

Melanie - you nailed it. YES. We should have tee shirts made. Put it on coffee mugs. It’s TRUE.

[masmojo]

Leah, I had to chuckle at the account of your new purchase.
When I got my Clementine I worried that subsequent interations, would retain the bits I liked & the parts I didn't like would be put straight.
Well, the long chain stays don't thrill me & I didn't think they would go away, but I didn't think for 1 second that they would be getting LONGER!!??

Guess, I should keep hold of my Clementine (not that I was planning to part with it), sounds like they could become much sought after in the future for their "short" chainstays.
😂

[Joe Bernard]

Leah may need to get her tape measure out again. I'm thinking the longer toptube and chainstays are the result of the seattube getting slacked back a bit..I'll bet the bike itself isn't actually longer.

[Leah Peterson]

Well, maybe. I think my mechanical lack of ability is well-documented here, but here are my crude measurements from last week...

Clementine. From crank to...whatever you call the part I stopped at.

[PaulS]

Better way to measure is the wheelbase. From front axle to rear axle. I’m guessing the new one is actually is longer.

[Garth]

  The new Clems are actually longer, as I wrote n an earlier response. It's not anyone's imagination, hardy har har !!!    The seat tube angle is the same 71,5, the head tube angle is now a slacker 69.5.  The effective top tubes are longer also, and that along with the shallower HTA make for much longer front-center, which is measured from the center BB to the center front axle. Very easy to measure with long ruler or tape measure.

For example,. here are 2 photos of a 59cm Clems, old black and the new blue. It's easy to spot the stretched out new Clem. Not only the distance from seatpost to stem center, but pedal to tire.

[Garth]

Right click on the images, click "view". This will open them full size.

[Joe Bernard]

You're right. Hopefully I haven't sent Leah on another wild goose chase of measuring with a tape of measure. Also, what IS a wild goose chase?? 🤔

[REC (Roberta)]

Leah,

I cannot believe how BEAUTIFUL that color is.  So rich and the Riv website does not do it justice.  I noticed that when I saw the Cheviot in person last week.  For those looking at the Chev, Rivendell told me that the Chev and this Clem are the same color in blue. 

I also like the svelteness of this bike, compared to the original Clem.  When I shopped originally for my first (and, I thought, "only" Riv), I had rejected the Clem because of the weight and heft.  However, this will be on my potential retirement bike and I'm looking forward to test riding it.  :)

Now that it's not in the triple digit temperature, you'll be able to ride nearly every day until summer.  ENJOY!!!!  You'll have to get another matching shirt for when it warms up!  :)

Roberta

[REC (Roberta)]

Garth,

What browser are you using?  I don't have a view option (IE in Windows 10, and, yes, I know it should be something else).

Roberta

On Monday, November 11, 2019 at 12:12:54 PM UTC-5, Garth wrote:

[Garth]

Hi Roberta, I'm using Firefox in Linux Mint.  I did some searching about IE and it seems it has no such option, which is rather archaic on their part !

Instead try these urls of the images I see in my browser, if they aren't live then copy and past in separate tabs.

https://13507435628737481763.googlegroups.com/attach/26ab610050226/Clem-l-59.jpg?part=0.2&view=1&vt=ANaJVrG558PPoIizu8t-8Pj2wtiTgkRn77z1X8Bp58CrfwZ9eQfqrANrpnHgPMAH8x45x2U6M275GLt5f18e8RrJ5XoylJmSEeDJKyjKnQpyK-U6VRk9-Jw

https://13507435628737481763.googlegroups.com/attach/26ab610050226/Clem-L-59_1600x.jpg?part=0.1&view=1&vt=ANaJVrH46PlB1zt_u2CbYbMA67p0-8ytQ1yGtTeJOTG8fowFwoeDl0MrTeu-a0qaL8Rn5VctZqxpOP7054k861p9rhzi11_LocIA59-qD_z-kU4YZKncHys

[Garth]

I just tested these after posting, and google gives me one of these silly red "deceptive site" warnings ..... which is hilarious as google is calling google groups a "deceptive site" !  Ahahaahahaha !

So if you see the red warning, choose to ignore it.

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

Yes, Garth! These photos were so helpful; I knew I wasn’t imagining this. I thought I noticed it in the photo the seller had on Craigslist - I remember thinking that bike looked looonnnggg.

I’m telling you, this Clem is a DIFFERENT BIKE. And you know what else? My sister had been riding (ok stealing) her husband’s 59 Clem L in grilver, and though it was too big, she got used to it. When her 52 Clem L came (in bronzy green Sept 2019) I figured she’d fall in love and declare it the best bike ever. But every time I asked she’d give me a non-enthusiastic answer and say she missed her husband’s bike. I wonder if the geometry changes to her new bike are why she’s been so lukewarm.

[REC (Roberta)]

Rivendell sold out of these bikes within a month of getting them.  Does anyone know if they are planning to get more completes?  More frames?  I'm not talking about a reinvented version, but the same version and same colors that they just need to order (I know it's not that simple) and keep in stock until that batch is sold out.  It is an extremely popular model and unlike any of their other offerings.

Roberta

On Monday, November 11, 2019 at 5:30:10 PM UTC-5, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

[Joe Bernard]

They need to just keep ordering them. Clems are so popular that people don't even sell them later, it's quite difficult to track any down on the used market. Because they're perfect!

[Abcyclehank]

Says the man (Joe) with two to the lady (Leah) with four. You each are among my favorite Riv Listers.

Sincerely,
Ryan “Clem less” Hankinson
West Michigan

[Joe Bernard]

You get a Clem and YOU get a Clem! It's like Oprah except there's only two people in the audience and they get all the Clems 😂

[Leah Peterson]

I have this same question, Roberta. Does anyone know when the next batch of Clementines come to Rivendell? They really are beloved and they do sell.

Ryan is poking fun at me for Clem hoarding but it’s much worse than he thinks. I started out with a Betty Foy and over time, I wore my family members down and we are overrun with Clems! Here’s the line up:
Husband: Clem H
Son: Clem H
Sister: Clem L
Brother in law: Clem L
Mother in law: Clementine (it’s mine, now)
Me: Clem L

*Also, my Mom has a 2019 Cheviot. Why not a Clem, you ask? Because it didn’t come in “sea foam.” But that Cheviot did.🙄

Sent from my iPad

> On Nov 11, 2019, at 3:29 PM, REC (Roberta) <rcha...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

[Bob Ehrenbeck]

Hey Roberta and Leah,

Vince mentioned to me at the Philly Bike Expo last week that the next batch of Clem Ls are expected by next April or May. 

Bob E

Cranford, NJ

[DHans]

I agree Joe. I bought and sold a Clem H and regret it. If a 52 L were in stock I would buy it now. Although I do prefer the first generation green. I’ve never owned a low step over bike but since I ride more for utility now than recreation and the L looks like it would be ideal.
Doug

[Keith Swanson]

When I spoke with them before I managed to get a frame, they were getting more in March. That was two months ago though. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 11, 2019, at 3:29 PM, REC (Roberta) <rcha...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[lconley]

Sounds like a good time to sell my 1st batch black Clementine 52. I am moving and need to reduce the 20+ bike fleet, especially if I want a Hillibike.

Laing

Cocoa, FL

[REC (Roberta)]

Keith and Bob,

That is great news.  If it's a good seller, that is good for Riv (and us).  I hope they bought enough to last them thru to the next reorder.

Bob,

I looked for you, and was disappointed I didn't see you and get to meet your wife.  Perhaps next year.

Roberta

[Joe Bernard]

Doug: I made the same mistake a couple summers ago and rectified it last week. And now I shall hijack Leah's Tale of Two Clems thread with pics of..my second Clem!

Only changes so far are a swap to 152mm triple cranks which aren't really a triple anymore. The stock double fd won't stretch to the big ring and I was planning to replace it, but turns out 32-22 rings are plenty for me and the 44 is shark-toothed anyway so it's a chainguard now. Easy!

Note Makeshifter pouch on the bars I just received from lister Shawn. It's a company - well, really one person named Becky - in Portland I wasn't aware of. Check out her site, she's very good.

PS. I'm not on internet-bob anymore, so you can go tell them for me on the Crank Length thread they're all wrong and shorty cranks are the way to go. They love it when I tell them their gear is wrong! 😂

[anniebikes]

On my, just catching up on Leah's unique versions of Clems...I had no idea the geometry was so different! (That'll teach me to only follow Instagram). I can't imagine an even longer bike. Love this group.

[Fullylugged]

The wheelbase of the new 59cm Clem I assembled yesterday is 130 cm. That's looong.

[Andrew Huston]

Going to gush a bit. I have owned a few Rivs over the years and bought the web special grilver 52 a few weeks back. Other than still having a love affair with that mustard color, I very much enjoy the way this bike rides. I’ve held out by thinking the Clem will be boring, wouldn’t be good at anything, etc etc etc. Maybe it’s not GOOD at anything but whatever. It seems practical and comfortable which is what I need in a bike. Since I’ve got it my $3K bike has sat idle. The time I have for rides now favors short fun jaunts, unassuming, and easy. A few alterations will likely make this my one bike. Never thought a Clem would be that bike.

[Joe Bernard]

I hear ya, Andrew. I've been riding my e-wheeled Clem L a while and it's perfect. I've just started riding my H and it's perfect. I have a custom on the way and it's going to be spectacular with all the lugs and pretty paint and built just for me and all that, but do I really NEED it? Nope. I want it and I'll love it, but a Clem would suit me just fine as my only bike if it ever came to that. They're not just good, there's a vibe about them that speaks to me. I can't explain it, it's just there.

[Joe Bernard]

Extrapolating on this a bit: The Clem/Clementine project was originally envisioned as a "budget Riv" with flat black paint you could rattlecan after it got scratched on light poles and bike racks. The lower cost remained but the dang things are gorgeous, and I never ever once notice that I might be riding a cheaper Riv. It's a Riv, and Rivendell makes spectacular bicycles. ALL of them.

[Leah Peterson]

Yes, I would agree with Andrew and Joe on the “Clem could be my only bike” sentiment. You all know I started out with a Betty Foy, which I still have, but the Clem’s step-through frame and the long chainstays make it the favorite. And what of the Betty Foy?

This is embarrassing. It’s...my date bike.

No, really, it is. My husband (not a bike person) only likes the Betty Foy “because that bike is you. That bike was an emotional purchase - you have history with that bike. How many miles have you ridden the Betty? It’s just FANCIER than the Clementine.” And he’s not wrong! So, regardless of how comfortable the Clem is, when we ride to Saturday coffee he takes his ugly e-bike and I take the Betty.

But really, a Clem is probably all I (we?) need.



Sent from my iPad

>> On Nov 12, 2019, at 6:18 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I hear ya, Andrew. I've been riding my e-wheeled Clem L a while and it's perfect. I've just started riding my H and it's perfect. I have a custom on the way and it's going to be spectacular with all the lugs and pretty paint and built just for me and all that, but do I really NEED it? Nope. I want it and I'll love it, but a Clem would suit me just fine as my only bike if it ever came to that. They're not just good, there's a vibe about them that speaks to me. I can't explain it, it's just there.
>
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[Joe Bernard]

Whelp, if I had a sedan and a Porsche and a date on Saturday I would take the Porsche. So this makes sense! 😁

[Garth]

    Short cranks ARE grand indeed !   I have long legs and big feet and I too ride 152mm and 150mm cranks. Whatever works , go with it !   

    The last set I bought were the Andel 110/74 triples from Bikesmith Design in Minnesota. I may try the Sram triple for the Susie Longbolts. The owner/operator shortens to order.  http://www.bikesmithdesign.com/Short_Cranks/

[A. Nostuh]

Garth interesting observation about the updated geometry on the Clem’s. My new 64cm still has the old 71.5 head angle which feels and rides great. My old cheviot with 70deg and extra offset is my reference point. If what you say is true then the 59 is actually longer front center than the 64 size. They should update the geometry chart. I’d like to know how the big Gus boots compares. Regardless they should keep selling them! I’m very happy with mine ;-)


Big Al in Saratoga

[Joe Bernard]

Garth, I can't believe you found a short cranks source! I've picked up a couple off used bikes I bought recently, which is how I discovered how great they are..I didn't know where to look for new ones. Thanks!

[Leah Peterson]

Here’s another visual for folks. I’m taking my bikes in for some swapping that is out of my expertise to carry out. The Clementine is closest to the van. You can see how long that new Clem is. Meanwhile, the Betty Foy is back on duty and saddled up. Isn’t she a sweet little pony?

[Joe Bernard]

Wow. It's two completely different size bikes!

[DHans]

I’ll be back on a Clem soon enough. I like the front pouch Joe. Looks like my Yeti coffee mug would fit in it.
Doug