Getting in over my head

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

I just want to talk bikes. I don’t have anything to post FS or WTB…I just want to tell Riv people this dumb story that happened this morning. You can laugh or you can roll your eyes, or you can chime in with your own dumb story of getting in over your own dumb heads.

This is my second season of club riding. I was new to it last year, and now that our weather is finally cooperating, I’m back.

Last week, our bike club started a new ride. It would be on Monday mornings and only 5 miles from my house. The pace was to be “conversational” which I took to mean ‘riding at a pace you can still have a conversation at.’ (I now know that could not be what it meant.) The route would be new. The details were fuzzy - word was, the ride leader would make decisions about pace and miles once people arrived. Now, I know Platypuses are not going to fare well in the 18-21 mph crowd, but I knew that two women upwards of 70 did this ride last week. I figured I’d be fine.

I was the second to arrive; the first being the president of our bike club. He was pulling his gravel bike out of his truck. He’s a roadie and he leads the 17-18 mph groups. Hmmm.  We’re friendly; I’m glad to know one person on the ride, but if he is here, how fast are we going? Two more people arrive; both men, roadies, and they pull jet-black, lethal-looking, feather-light carbon bikes from their vehicles. They are strangers to me.

Ok, well, it’s going to be fine. Who cares if you’re the only woman. So what if you’re wearing your pink pants. Clutching the wide, sweepy bars of your sparkly pink Platypus. Their eyes are hidden behind their Oakleys, and I imagine what they are thinking - “She cannot be serious.” 

Behind my Oakleys, I am thinking, “I cannot be serious.” 

The three of them begin to discuss the route and the pace. The ride leader says, “The route is hilly. Let’s keep a 17 mph pace in the flats.” As soon as I hear that the route is hilly, I want OUT. I have always kept up in my club rides, but hills are the one thing that the Platypus does not do well. Oh, a Platypus can climb, but don’t ask it to do it at high speeds. I use momentum to get me uphill. To compensate, I always shoot ahead of the group, but I slow on the incline and those carbon bikes are gaining on me near the top. About the time they catch me, I’m back up to speed and am innocent of causing anyone to slow down, but that extra effort is the price I pay. The game is: Never Make Them Slow Down For You Even If You Have A Heart Attack. 

My mind is searching for a way out. I don’t have a good feeling about this. It’s early in the season. Maybe if I was in tip top, but today? But then came introductions. J, the president says, “This is Leah. She’s fine. She can keep up with us.” Liar, I think.

And with that, we are off.

We hit a hill right out the gate. I’m toward the back because I don’t know the route. They are calmly approaching that hill, not changing speed. I’m confused. They’re slowing me up; it’s too late for me to get around them. I will not have the burst of speed I need to start that hill. And worse, I’m in too high of a gear. I have friction shifting - and now I’m committed. I am desperate not to look like a fool. I am standing on my pedals, wishing for the first time in my life that I am 10 pounds heavier. All my weight on the left pedal. All my weight on the right pedal. Tossing the bike side to side. Panting. Heart wildly beating. Wishing I was somewhere else. I don’t know if I can do this, and we have just begun. And the two guys in front are now sailing uphill and creating a wide chasm between us. This is the worst first impression. But looking behind me, one of them is having a harder time with that hill than me. So, at least I’m not LAST. 

The leaders soft pedal and we regroup. New strategy. Way lower gears on the uphill. Pedal like a rabid animal on the downhill. Announce I’m going around them to get enough speed/momentum.

This works better. “Hey, Leah’s getting a better workout than us!” they joke. “She’s pedaling downhill AND uphill!” Yes, she is, and she’s exhausted. I push something on my Apple Watch and screw up the metrics. I look to J - how many miles have we gone, I ask. 

“11.” 

This is a 25 mile ride. I’m going to die, right here on my Platypus. 

The flats have them screaming down the road. They want to go fast, so do I. It’s just that it costs me a little extra. I have to push, but this I can do. The man behind me is loving it. I am giving him the loveliest draft, he says. I look behind me and am shocked that he is right on my wheel. That is new to me. I hope he’s good at it.

I’m always the fastest on the downhill in the women’s ride. But these men tuck in, get low, and even just coasting they sail downhill, passing me. I wonder how fast they are going. I am wildly pedaling in my hardest gear and barely feel resistance.

I love the stop signs. Just a small break to fully inflate my lungs and slow my pulse is heavenly. I learn to shift to lower gears as we approach the stop sign so that I can start at a faster pace. 

J asks me how I like this ride. I tell him it’s a gorgeous route that I don’t know if I’m ever doing again. “But think how strong you would be!” he says. I am not tempted.

The last few miles are flat and fast. We eat up the miles quickly.  I am relieved to get back to the parking lot. Elated that I made it. Humbled by how much I am still learning. The guys are complimentary; last week was a slower ride and they are happy they got to go at their pace this week.

I am in my vehicle, thinking lots of thoughts. I mostly believed my Platypus could do anything…because I love it. In the other rides I’ve attended, it did what I asked. But it is not as efficient or fast as the bikes these men have. And it is not a speed climber. It cannot be everything, but it is still the only bike I want to ride. It has tons of advantages; I accept its minor limitations. I’ll ride it joyfully. This is the bike I want to make the memories with. 

I discover I don’t like suffering. I do like a push. I want a challenge. Give me some hard! But when hard becomes panic, the fun drains out. 

I don’t know if I’ll be back to that ride. But I’m glad I went.

Have you ever gotten in over your head?

Leah

[Julian Westerhout]

Leah, 

Perhaps a Roadeo is in your future....   ;)    

Julian Westerhout

Bloomington, IL 

[Leah Peterson]

Grant would have to make a mixte version! I have wondered about it, Julian. How much faster would a Roadeo be, I wonder? And what makes it so?

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On May 15, 2023, at 9:30 PM, Julian Westerhout <weste...@gmail.com> wrote:

Leah, 

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[Julian Westerhout]

Leah, 

In answer to your question, yes, indeed.  The most similar was about 16 years ago -- new to town, showed up to a club "ice cream" ride -- to me that meant casual ride with a stop for ice cream -- but at the time that particular ride was a fast paced 15 miles out to eat ice cream, then 15 miles back as fast as you could go. I did not know the roads, and had not ridden much that year (move, new job, new-to-us fixer-upper house, etc.) -- it was a disaster. Luckily a very nice guy stayed back and rode with me -- and told me about the "mellow rides"   the club also did, which were grand social rides of the type I was looking for that year. 

Still ride with the club -- I'm a bit faster,  and there are no real pseudo-racers left in the club -- that type of rider no longer rides with the club, but on go-fast rides sponsored by a local shop. 

It's all good -- fun to persevere as best you can (which in your case sounds pretty darn well) and tell the stories....

Julian Westerhout

[Julian Westerhout]

Leah, 

Riding position and bike weight (and wheel weight) are a big part of it -- a lot less of a sail at speed compared to your Platypus.  Lots of relatively cheap "classic"  vintage 1980s-1990s steel bikes with performance like the Roadeo out there -- perhaps look for one near you to try with minimal $$ -- or put the word out in the club -- likely a few hanging in garages of your carbon-riding compatriots... 

Julian 

[Richard Rose]

Leah, the short answer is a resounding YES! If you are going to do group rides you (and everyone else) will get in over your head. It’s very easy to exert too much & you are done, especially if it is not a “no drop” ride. It’s worth mentioning that crashes are not infrequent on these speedier group rides. Much depends on the skill & experience of each rider. After several decades of doing these sort of rides and having great fun doing so - I just don’t anymore. I have found joy in other forms of cycling. 

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On May 15, 2023, at 9:14 PM, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:

I just want to talk bikes. I don’t have anything to post FS or WTB…I just want to tell Riv people this dumb story that happened this morning. You can laugh or you can roll your eyes, or you can chime in with your own dumb story of getting in over your own dumb heads.

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<IMG_1951.jpeg>

[lconley]

The answer is yes, but not recently. The upcoming North Carolina Riv Ride will be a challenge - no hills to practice on in south Florida.

Note that you can still do an aero tuck even on a flat bar Platypus - its is kind of awkward, your hands are sort of beside your shoulders, or you can put your hands near the stem under your chest, but it beats pedaling downhill. You might have to put your water bottle in a frame mounted cage though.

You don't need a Roadini - a naked drop bar platypus would work just fine. Although a sparkly raspberry Rodeo.......

You can never have too many Rivendells.

Laing

[DavidP]

Leah, I'm impressed by how you have found ways to make the Platypus work on fast group rides - even if it is a bit more work. Your observation about momentum is apt and the way you've adjusted to maintain it is great.

Julian's point about the riding position is valid and your Billie bars allow for a range of back angles by gripping the bar at different points so you don't need to be an upright sail.  If you are not currently using multiple hand positions on your bars that's a good place to start.  As you've seen, there's a point on downhills where staying upright and pedaling is slower than tucking in and coasting. 

I have roadish bikes with Albatross bars and find griping the bar ahead of the brake lever to be similar to riding on the hoods of a drop bar, while gripping further into the bends/hooks and bending my elbows a bit more gets me to a position similar to riding in the drops. Like Laing said you can also try narrowing your grip even more toward the stem and bending even lower for an actual aero tuck. You'll need to be cautious about how close you are to other riders as your hands will be away from the brakes, but this is no different from an aero tuck on a drop bar (where the hands are moved in close to the stem).

It's also very easy to adjust your stem height to try a slightly lower bar position, but I would suggest becoming comfortable using the full range of your handlebar positions to be worthwhile in any case.

As to the difference between the Platypus and a lighter road bike - with riding position accounted for above, it's mostly in acceleration. You wouldn't need to worry as much about momentum because it'd be easier to get back up to speed; but in any case momentum is a good thing and saves you work.

-Dave

[Howard Ramsay]

It's always worth the effort to try something new.

[Piaw Na]

I once rode the Cheviot with the bike club when my wife and kids refused to keep riding after the lunch stop. I was surprised that I was fast enough to keep up with the fast riders. If you want to go fast, there are a few things that the Cheviot does that makes it harder: 

1. If you're not using drop bars, the air resistance on the flats makes it quite a bit more effort at anything about 13mph. You can tuck but the position isn't as comfortable.
2. The Cheviot/Platypus aren't great for standing up on climbs. The bike really wants you to sit and spin. That means you have to have gears suitable for doing so. 
3. Clipless pedals make a big difference for sitting and spinning on climbs.
4. The Cheviot was heavier than other bikes, but those extra pounds mattered surprisingly little.

Having said all that I definitely still prefer the Roadini with drop bars for going fast and hard. Being able tuck definitely lets you go fast downhill without pedaling!

[Patrick Moore]

And climbing, at least the steeper hills. At least, I find a very noticeable difference in ease of climbing on my lightest bike (18 lb, 76” gear) and my heaviest with road tires — tires that roll as well as those on the lightest bike (32 lb, derailleur gears).

But with good tires and an aero tuck, with the weight of the Platypus you should outcoast many others downhill.

Patrick Moore

> On May 16, 2023, at 7:48 AM, DavidP <dphi...@gmail.com> wrote: … As to the difference between the Platypus and a lighter road bike - with riding position accounted for above, it's mostly in acceleration.

[Brian Forsee]

Sounds like you crushed it Leah! Way to get out of your comfort zone.

Brian

[Joe Bernard]

"Sounds like you crushed it Leah! Way to get out of your comfort zone." 

Haha, from what I've seen over the years getting out of the comfort zone is Leah's comfort zone 💪😁

Joe Bernard 

[Patrick Moore]

I'd love to see a video of Leah suffering on the Platypus with handlbar streamers and white straw basket to keep up with the fast boys on carbon fiber. But good job, says someone whose fast days are long gone. 

But Leah ought to be winner on the downhills. Long ago, as a spritely early 50-something, I rode with Gary "It was a bad year; only 9,000 miles" Blakely up the long Tramway climb. Downhill I continually pulled ahead because at 170 I weighed about 35 lb more than he. Bikes about the same (me #1 Riv custom, he refurbished -- by Mark Bulgier, IIRC -- Trek)

4 years ago I did  several rides with a group of engineers from Sandia labs, thanks to a friend who was then working there (he retired a couple of years ago). The others were all younger than I -- I would guess most in 3-0s and 40s with leader in early-mid 50s; I 64, friend 60 or 61 -- and rode derailleur bikes, mostly cf; I was on my '99 fixie gofast with 76" gear. 20, 30, and ??37? -- I bailed; see below -- rides. I bailed on the last one after facing a ~5 mile gradual uphill into Bernalillo with a headwind and gradually falling behind the group, tho' another rider very kindly shepherded me to the Bernalillo rest stop.

But man, with the open road, tail wind, and downhill I was spinning out the 76" gear much of the way home.

[Doug H.]

I was on a group ride with a fast rider years ago and tried to keep up but could not. As I'm on his rear wheel and giving my last bit of effort not to drop off the rider behind me screams "don't let him drop you!". My heart and lungs just didn't have another gear so he did drop me. On another day, on a steep incline a racer friend of mine told me not to get below 10 mph on the hill (seemed arbitrary to me...) but I could not manage to keep that speed. He actually PUSHED me with one hand to keep me up to speed when I slowed and to this day I am amazed he was pedaling his weight and some of mine!!

I am faster and find hills easier to climb on my 20 pound Wabi Thunder than on my Clem. The Clem is more comfortable and would be the bike I would keep if I could only have one.

Doug

[Leah Peterson]

I would also like to see a video of my suffering. And handlebar streamers and white basket will be forthcoming. 

I wondered why I wasn’t faster in the downhill, too. I’m thinking it’s because though my bike is heavier, my bodyweight is less than theirs. I’m hard for the women to keep up with on the downhills…

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On May 16, 2023, at 11:43 AM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Piaw Na(藍俊彪)]

Weight is secondary to aerodynamics. At 15mph, more than half the energy goes into overcoming air resistance, and that goes up with the cube of the speed from there.

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[Patrick Moore]

What about a Platypus with aero bars? Worked for Greg LeMond. In a color to match that lovely -- mauve purple? I'm slightly color blind in the red spectrum (but I still insist that it's lovely).

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Leah Peterson]

Doug, I laughed out loud. The guy pushing you! 😂 It’s so humbling, right? We need to organize a Clem ride, which is where we’d be right at home. We’d call it a Clems With Nothing To Prove Ride. 

The terror of trying and failing to keep up at high speeds would be but a distant memory.

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On May 16, 2023, at 3:37 PM, Doug H. <dhansf...@gmail.com> wrote:

I was on a group ride with a fast rider years ago and tried to keep up but could not. As I'm on his rear wheel and giving my last bit of effort not to drop off the rider behind me screams "don't let him drop you!". My heart and lungs just didn't have another gear so he did drop me. On another day, on a steep incline a racer friend of mine told me not to get below 10 mph on the hill (seemed arbitrary to me...) but I could not manage to keep that speed. He actually PUSHED me with one hand to keep me up to speed when I slowed and to this day I am amazed he was pedaling his weight and some of mine!!

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[Piaw Na(藍俊彪)]

When Grant Petersen was visiting the south bay, we went on a ride with him organized by the Bicycle Outfitter. My girlfriend and I was on a tandem, and of course we weren't keeping up. So he rode up to us and started pushing us with his hand on my girlfriend's back. Then Mark rode up and started helping by pushing on Grant's back. They're amazing bike handlers (as well as very strong).

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[Leah Peterson]

Thanks, Brian and Joe! Everything I do scares me now. It’s my new thing. Keeps me humble and makes for some funny chitchat here.

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On May 16, 2023, at 4:45 PM, Piaw Na <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Leah Peterson]

Piaw, no way! This is so amusing. I would have LOVED a photo. 

Do you ever ride your Cheviot on club rides or just that once?

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On May 16, 2023, at 4:45 PM, Piaw Na <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Piaw Na(藍俊彪)]

The Cheviot's my wife's bike, so it was just that once. I ride the triplet or my custom touring bike for club rides.

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[Doug H.]

Leah,

I would LOVE to do a Clem ride. I wish geography wasn't a barrier but if we can get a few Clem riders in the same location that would be a blast! For the record, I was even riding a carbon road bike while being pushed up hill. Yes, it was humbling. lol

Doug

[Ted Durant]

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 8:13:53 PM UTC-5 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

Have you ever gotten in over your head?

Well, Leah, if you'd really been in over your head you'd have drowned :-)  Sounds to me like, even though it was a harder effort you are used to, you performed quite well. That's a good testament to the fitness you've developed over the last few years.

As for the "would a different bike help" part of the thread ... as others have said, it's a lot more about position than it is about the bike, per se. Of course, the bike dictates, to some extent, the position. Position does a few things ... one, as mentioned, is aerodynamics, reducing coefficient of drag, which becomes exponentially important as speed increases, but much less so if you're tucked into a group (until you're at the front!); another is that a forward-lean recruits more/different muscle groups to keep the pedals spinning at higher effort; and a third is that climbing out of the saddle requires enough distance to the handlebars to get over the pedals when the bike is on a steep upslope.  That said, my experience has been that my Cheviot was hands-down the slowest bike I've owned, regardless of position. I have no idea why. Also, there is one part of the bike where you can buy speed, and that's the tires. Though, it looks like your Platy is on Ultradynamicos, so you might be good there. I guarantee you a few pounds of bike weight won't make any difference.  

My recommendation, fwiw, if you are thinking about a "road bike" would be to not go straight to something like a Roadeo or Roadini, as that would be a big change and take quite a bit of time to adjust. I have a Riv Road custom with a Campy group on it, but I would not hesitate to ride my Sam Hillborne on a fast group ride. The position on it is half way between your current Platy and a "road bike", and I think would be an easier transition.

One more thing ... riding in a group requires specific skills, awareness, and communication. From your previous posts it sounds like you've developed those pretty well. But the stakes get higher as the speeds get higher and, as you noticed, the tolerances get tighter. Fast rides mean staying a few inches off the wheel in front of you and that means very little reaction time when stuff happens. I like your approach of getting to the front as hills approach, and the fact that you can ride off the front like that speaks volumes about how strong you are. However, it can be really disruptive for a group to have a gap open and then close. So, my suggestion is to not worry about getting any distance on the group, but definitely try to get to the front at the start of a climb. In a good group, there's always a nice, smooth rotation, one line moving up, one line moving back, so it's easy to get to the front at the start of a climb and slowly drop back as you go up. Just be aware that, for a lot of fast group rides, LOTS of people are going to be jockeying for that position cuz they are badass and need to show it. In the ride you described, it sounds like a small group and that wasn't the case. It would have been totally appropriate to talk to the others about how you like to rotate on the hills. It's really important for the group to agree on which side is moving up and which side is dropping back. In general, going up hills (in places where we ride on the right hand side of the road) the slower people should be on the right and the faster on the left. 

Oh, and yeah, I've gone over my head. My last boss before I retired was a serious triathlete and I rode with him a fair amount. One of our last rides he said he wanted to do 5 hours at an easy pace. I brought food and drink, accordingly. He was averaging 20+ and I was near my aerobic threshold most of the time. Definitely did not have the right food for that sort of ride, and I paid for it dearly.

Ted Durant

Milwaukee, WI USA

[Piaw Na]

I just realized that I forgot to mention the easiest way to keep up: I converted my wife's Cheviot into an ebike. https://blog.piaw.net/2020/12/installation-review-swytch-e-bike.html

[Toshi Takeuchi]

First, congratulations for completing a very tough ride!  Second, it's possible that what's nearly impossible today can be normal tomorrow once you adapt with the strategies (as you did for gearing/pacing etc.) and mental knowledge that you have done it and are doing it better the next time around. (I remember your first club rides were hard, and maybe they are routine now?)

For hard rides, if you are like me, then the first day after the ride, it's, "That was dumb, why did I ever agree to do the ride?".  A few days later it's,  "Wow, I can't believe I made it."  A week to a month later (depending on how quickly amnesia sets in), it's "I'm doing that again and will be stronger!"

My "initiation" into road riding was taking my heavy steel mountain bike and putting slicks (slick tires) on it and going with my road riding buddy who took me on a ~30 mile? slugfest from Milpitas up Calaveras up and down Welch Creek Rd., which is known as one of the steepest challenges in the area, and then back up Calaveras and down to Milpitas.  My longest ride previous to this one was no more than 10-15 miles (doing mountain biking).  Of course I was slow (and the Western Wheeler ride leaders waited for us--thank you for your patience!), but somehow I finished and wasn't turned off from road riding forever.

Of course, the most important thing is what you think is fun and what you want to set your goals upon. I like training for a tough (i.e. stupid) bike ride as a way to challenge myself to become fit.  Outside of training for the stupid stuff, I haven't done too much riding other than commuting to work (which is good training too), due to spending lots more time playing music (violin/viola).  However,  I envision a day when I can give up the stupid stuff and do solely enjoyable rides and touring!

Toshi

P.S. As a fun side note, my friend, who took me on my "initiation" road ride showed me a picture of a Riv Saluki and told me that I need to get that bike.  I thought he was crazy at the time, but it turned out that my first new Riv was the A Homer Hilsen, which is the direct descendant of the Saluki, so he was prescient.

[Joe Bernard]

Hehe, this is my secret plan for if I'm ever on a Leah group ride: a hidden motor in the downtube 🙃

[Jay LePree]

Leah - It is Jersey Jay.  Platypus owner via Analogue.  It seems that while the ride was unpleasant, you did keep up, which is quite impressive.  I am approach my 56th trip around the sun in Dec, and about 15 years ago, much attibutable to what you experienced, I stopped my group rides.  It is true that a group ride will make one a stronger rider, but at some point, I realized that I did not need to be a stronger rider and struck out on my own.  I noticed another poster mentioned that crashes due occur on some of these group rides, particularly that fast ones.  Yes, I have observed them.  The pros can ride inches away from the wheels of those in front of and behind them.  We are not pros and I saw crashes happen because of it.  I  think this is exacerbated by the growth of Swift, etc.  Riders have increasingly big engines, but not the riding skills to harness them safely in a group ride.  

IF (a big IF) I do go back to group rides (we have a northern NJ touring group where I live), it will be with the C and C+ group rides.  You get to meet new people, and they have been traditionally respectful of agreed upon pace.  (Athough there, I have seen speed creep up into the B to B+ pace.)

Enjoy the ride,

Jay 

Demarest, NJ

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 9:13:53 PM UTC-4 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

I just want to talk bikes. I don’t have anything to post FS or WTB…I just want to tell Riv people this dumb story that happened this morning. You can laugh or you can roll your eyes, or you can chime in with your own dumb story of getting in over your own dumb heads.

This is my second season of club riding. I was new to it last year, and now that our weather is finally cooperating, I’m back.

Last week, our bike club started a new ride. It would be on Monday mornings and only 5 miles from my house. The pace was to be “conversational” which I took to mean ‘riding at a pace you can still have a conversation at.’ (I now know that could not be what it meant.) The route would be new. The details were fuzzy - word was, the ride leader would make decisions about pace and miles once people arrived. Now, I know Platypuses are not going to fare well in the 18-21 mph crowd, but I knew that two women upwards of 70 did this ride last week. I figured I’d be fine.

I was the second to arrive; the first being the president of our bike club. He was pulling his gravel bike out of his truck. He’s a roadie and he leads the 17-18 mph groups. Hmmm.  We’re friendly; I’m glad to know one person on the ride, but if he is here, how fast are we going? Two more people arrive; both men, roadies, and they pull jet-black, lethal-looking, feather-light carbon bikes from their vehicles. They are strangers to me.

Ok, well, it’s going to be fine. Who cares if you’re the only woman. So what if you’re wearing your pink pants. Clutching the wide, sweepy bars of your sparkly pink Platypus. Their eyes are hidden behind their Oakleys, and I imagine what they are thinking - “She cannot be serious.” 

Behind my Oakleys, I am thinking, “I cannot be serious.” 

The three of them begin to discuss the route and the pace. The ride leader says, “The route is hilly. Let’s keep a 17 mph pace in the flats.” As soon as I hear that the route is hilly, I want OUT. I have always kept up in my club rides, but hills are the one thing that the Platypus does not do well. Oh, a Platypus can climb, but don’t ask it to do it at high speeds. I use momentum to get me uphill. To compensate, I always shoot ahead of the group, but I slow on the incline and those carbon bikes are gaining on me near the top. About the time they catch me, I’m back up to speed and am innocent of causing anyone to slow down, but that extra effort is the price I pay. The game is: Never Make Them Slow Down For You Even If You Have A Heart Attack. 

My mind is searching for a way out. I don’t have a good feeling about this. It’s early in the season. Maybe if I was in tip top, but today? But then came introductions. J, the president says, “This is Leah. She’s fine. She can keep up with us.” Liar, I think.

And with that, we are off.

We hit a hill right out the gate. I’m toward the back because I don’t know the route. They are calmly approaching that hill, not changing speed. I’m confused. They’re slowing me up; it’s too late for me to get around them. I will not have the burst of speed I need to start that hill. And worse, I’m in too high of a gear. I have friction shifting - and now I’m committed. I am desperate not to look like a fool. I am standing on my pedals, wishing for the first time in my life that I am 10 pounds heavier. All my weight on the left pedal. All my weight on the right pedal. Tossing the bike side to side. Panting. Heart wildly beating. Wishing I was somewhere else. I don’t know if I can do this, and we have just begun. And the two guys in front are now sailing uphill and creating a wide chasm between us. This is the worst first impression. But looking behind me, one of them is having a harder time with that hill than me. So, at least I’m not LAST. 

The leaders soft pedal and we regroup. New strategy. Way lower gears on the uphill. Pedal like a rabid animal on the downhill. Announce I’m going around them to get enough speed/momentum.

This works better. “Hey, Leah’s getting a better workout than us!” they joke. “She’s pedaling downhill AND uphill!” Yes, she is, and she’s exhausted. I push something on my Apple Watch and screw up the metrics. I look to J - how many miles have we gone, I ask. 

“11.” 

This is a 25 mile ride. I’m going to die, right here on my Platypus. 

The flats have them screaming down the road. They want to go fast, so do I. It’s just that it costs me a little extra. I have to push, but this I can do. The man behind me is loving it. I am giving him the loveliest draft, he says. I look behind me and am shocked that he is right on my wheel. That is new to me. I hope he’s good at it.

I’m always the fastest on the downhill in the women’s ride. But these men tuck in, get low, and even just coasting they sail downhill, passing me. I wonder how fast they are going. I am wildly pedaling in my hardest gear and barely feel resistance.

I love the stop signs. Just a small break to fully inflate my lungs and slow my pulse is heavenly. I learn to shift to lower gears as we approach the stop sign so that I can start at a faster pace. 

J asks me how I like this ride. I tell him it’s a gorgeous route that I don’t know if I’m ever doing again. “But think how strong you would be!” he says. I am not tempted.

The last few miles are flat and fast. We eat up the miles quickly.  I am relieved to get back to the parking lot. Elated that I made it. Humbled by how much I am still learning. The guys are complimentary; last week was a slower ride and they are happy they got to go at their pace this week.

I am in my vehicle, thinking lots of thoughts. I mostly believed my Platypus could do anything…because I love it. In the other rides I’ve attended, it did what I asked. But it is not as efficient or fast as the bikes these men have. And it is not a speed climber. It cannot be everything, but it is still the only bike I want to ride. It has tons of advantages; I accept its minor limitations. I’ll ride it joyfully. This is the bike I want to make the memories with. 

I discover I don’t like suffering. I do like a push. I want a challenge. Give me some hard! But when hard becomes panic, the fun drains out. 

I don’t know if I’ll be back to that ride. But I’m glad I went.

Have you ever gotten in over your head?

Leah

[ascpgh]

Leah's true sufferfest may have been reduced tolerance to the over necessity of all the "go-fast" gear, the seeming standard issue of the average bicyclist, while under the duress of her 10/10ths performance. The interesting part is that she did more on that ride than the rest. All their stiffer, lighter and aero stuff just being cheat codes for the work at hand. If part of her bicycling has to do with exercise and enjoying the ride, Leah got more than them.

We all find our sweet spot in bicycling, what we like, what rewards us, what becomes our focus. On that path we evolve towards perfecting that and it's jarring when contrast is implied (or obtusely verbalized). It is very much a tangent to enjoy the process, its duration and the surroundings.

Most advances have been shortcuts for reducing work or doing it in less time so we could get back to the cave to paint another bison or the couch for TV.  What cyclists do with the saved time and reduced effort is interesting, if they are even aware of accruing it.  

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Bill Schairer]

In addition to all that has been said, I find gearing can make a huge difference.  I've geared each of my bikes for a different style of riding.  My Atlantis is geared for loaded touring and currently has 50mm tires for off pavement capability.  It has lower gears and bigger steps between gears than the bike I prefer for an unloaded ride on pavement.  I think I am slower on the Atlantis because I have more trouble hitting the perfect cadence/effort for the particular conditions.  I also feel it is easier to pace with others with tighter gearing steps.  Having another rear wheel with a different cassette, your "club ride" wheel, might extend the capabilities of your Platy?

Bill S

San Diego

[Ted Durant]

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 5:36:22 AM UTC-5 Jay LePree wrote:

 I  think this is exacerbated by the growth of Swift, etc.  Riders have increasingly big engines, but not the riding skills to harness them safely in a group ride.  

That's been a subject of conversation at the pro level, where people are being picked up out of Zwift Academy and getting pro contracts.  Even before then, I saw lots of people with plenty of power but no group riding skills create chaos in the pack. 

What keeps me away from group rides these days, aside from becoming an old fart, is the rampant blowing off of traffic signals and "itching for a fight" attitude cyclists take toward car drivers. Also, as Paul Fournel says in _Need For The Bike_, "Hell is the rhythm of others." 

The guy I do most my riding with smiles and waves at everyone, regardless of how polite or impolite the encounter. And, he and I share the same rhythm 99.9% of the time. 

[Bill Lindsay]

My comical "getting in over my head" story is not a cycling story, but I think it still has familiar emotions

My wife is an avid flamenco afficionado.  She takes classes multiple times per week, attends shows almost every weekend, and savors the Spanish, Gypsy and North African cultural streams that all mix together.  The SF Bay Area has a small but vibrant flamenco community, so usually if you go to a medium sized show with 100 people in the audience, you're going to see familiar faces.  At small shows, you might know everybody.  Performers from the last show will be in the audience of this show, etc.  One of the traditional parts of flamenco is a percussion element.  It's a wooden snare drum in the shape of a box.  The Cajon.  The drummer sits on the Cajon and plays on the front face of the instrument, making a surprising array of sounds.  

I'm recognized in this small community because I go to a lot of shows, but I don't dance, sing, or play an instrument.  My wife had the idea that we could learn cajon together.  Several years back, a visitor from Spain was holding a workshop in San Francisco, and she signed us up.  The description said "all levels welcome".  I asked "will they have a cajon for each of us to borrow?"  She said "they must!  All levels!"  

We got there and every student was a professional percussionist.  There were 8 students in total.  Every student had their own cajon, and the class was entirely in Spanish.  There were no familiar faces.  My wife and I had to play on the tops of our thighs.  My wife was familiar with all the rhythms, since she had many years of dancing experience, and was used to doing palmas, which is the clapping accompaniment that is done at flamenco shows. So she did fine.  Then there's me, desperately wanting to dig a hole in the ground to crawl into and never be heard from again.  I had Literally.  No.  Clue.  The only saving grace is that by being almost completely silent I was easy to ignore, so i didn't disrupt anybody else's experience.  Also, the experience was sufficiently humiliating to be humorous.  Something completely absurd at least gave me the solace "Well, this is going to make a good story".  

There is definitely "pushing the limits" of one's comfort zone, and then there is "you do not belong here".  That first cajon experience was definitely the latter.  There's pushing oneself up a level, and there's imposter syndrome, pretending to belong when you probably don't (or thinking you don't belong when you actually do belong).  Finally there is being a complete stowaway.  

Since then, we found a cajon player who had taught classes before COVID but had stopped.  We got a small group of friends together to do a beginner class.  We host it in our livingroom.  Now we're several months in, and we did our first recital on-stage during intermission of a small show.  Our teacher, Marlon, is now one of our very close friends.  The cajon my wife bought me for Christmas 2015 is more than a coffee table now.  So it's all worked out.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[RichS]

Dear Leah, 

Kudos to you for participating and then hanging with a group of gofasters; something I don't have a desire to do. I have begun taking  part in no drop 20-30 mile group rides averaging 10-12 mph with a social gathering at the end. The riders respect and watch out for one another. All in all very enjoyable. This from one who has forever done solo rides or occasionally with a partner. 

Your post made me think of this image from the Cheviot brochure when it was introduced. Having your cake and eating it too perhaps?

Best,

Rich in ATL

[Patrick Moore]

That's a funny story. Long ago my then-wife/now ex-wife decided to try out the Spinning (tm) class at the nearby gym. Her only cycling experience was about 25 miles total on our 2 tandems (on the first of which -- wholly inappropriate lightweight 531C Orbit racing tandem that wagged like a dog under 2 neophytes -- our inaugural and sole ride ended up with the steerer breaking and sending both of us over the bar).

Anyway, she went to the gym and found it full of die-hard Spinning aficionados with an aggressive coach. The first kefuffle was that she wore regular athletic shoes, but they got her more or less sorted, and she embarked on such a purgatorial ride that about 1/2 way through she came close to fainting and falling off the machine, stopping the class so others could resuscitate her and ask her if she needed a doctor (she is a doctor). That was her last Spinning class. She took up guns and whisky and cigars -- tough little 5'2" 2nd-gen Taiwan Chinese.

[John Dewey]

I've been engaged with the pros / cons of group rides for many years. And, despite my best efforts to see it clearly, I still waffle to and fro.

These days, I'm always the only guy riding fly-by-wire steel and have little in common with the folks on plastic bikes. There is no idle talk about equipment (most drop their bikes off to have tires mounted). But I like a well-organized paceline because it makes me stronger and builds fitness. I have no lofty goals other than being able to ride 50 miles with ease. In this regard, riding with a strong group is a means to an end. I also feed on the euphoria of living the moment. It's exhilarating—the speed, the awareness, the 'aliveness'...maybe even the danger. 

There is no past, no future, only now.

But I enjoy—equally—long rides out into the countryside all by myself. I never feel alone; I'm not concerned for my safety. I love the silence and amuse myself as I get lost in my head. Though we are lured by the comfort as miles pass by, we must always be sharp, vigilant, and prepared, because each turn leads to the unknown regardless of how many times we've pedaled down the road.

I am quite a bit older than all my riding mates...that reality is hard to ignore. I don't think about it much—as I feel youthful and prepared for adventure. But some numbers cannot be ignored. The paceline distorts this reality...and brushes it aside if only temporarily. 

At this point in my life, that's reward enough.

Jock Dewey 

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[Jason Fuller]

Late to the conversation - great story-telling as always, and highly relatable Leah!  I have certainly been there, although maybe not entirely by surprise in my case. I ride with friends who have very fast, lightweight bikes and I'm never totally sure how much to blame my bike vs. my legs, but for sure they both play a role.  

I've been consistently amazed by how effortlessly you've been able to hang onto group rides with folks on more typical road bikes, because as much as I love an upright Riv, it definitely takes more effort to go the same speed.  On flat ground, you lose a bit due to aerodynamics but as you say, it's the hills where the difference really becomes significant and I think it's largely to do with body position - on our slack seat tube, upright bar bikes we're rotated too far back once the road points upwards!  Getting forward on the bars helps.  A lot of it is the angle between your legs and torso, and also having your torso rotated forward enough to effectively counter-balance the forces from your pedal strokes. 

I have enjoyed just gearing down and enjoying the scenery but this breaks down if you need to keep up with a fast group 

[George Schick]

I'm old, old, and old enough to have used Eugene Sloane's "Complete Book of Bicycling" as my guide into serious cycling back in the early '70's.  In his book he goes through great pains, including photos, to explain the five or so hand positions available to a cyclist riding with standard drop road bars.  Jock as done us a favor by posting an autobiographical photo of him riding with his hands on the brake lever hoods.  In addition, hands may be positioned on the bend of the bars with just the first part of the index finger digit on the brake lever hoods, they may be positioned on the downward bend of the bars, and they may grip the flats on the top of the bars, and, of course, all the way down on the drops.  All of these positions may be used to the advantage of the rider as conditions vary through climbing, fatigue (especially in the lower back, but also in the hands), and when riding into a strong headwind.  If a rider is approaching a steep incline he/she has the option of either gripping hands around the brake lever hoods and standing (muscling) up the slope or staying seated and gripping hands around the flats, spinning at high cadence all the way up (what used to be called "honking").  If a rider is in a paceline he/she has the option of either gripping the brake lever hoods and crouching down or going hands all the way down on the drops in order to gain best advantage of the draft behind the cyclist ahead.  Sloane recommended using a bike set up this way for touring as well and never recommended (to the best of my recollection) the use of bikes set up differently except for casual riding (unless you're Freddy Hoffman).

Upon viewing photos of these long wheel based, step-through framed bikes with upright bars, I see none of the same advantages that drop bars offer.  Can one still ride competitively in fast, paceline oriented, club rides on bikes like these?  Sure, but you're going to pay a penalty in unnecessary exertion and, as time goes along, the physiology of the extra stress and strain on joints, ligaments, and muscles is likely to take a toll on one's body.  The choice is one's own, but as others have advised here, there are practical alternatives.

[Patrick Moore]

I generally agree with George's information, only "honking" means standing and pushing hard on the pedals, usually uphill. I think it's an old British term. Also, I don't think that you use the hooks for drafting, tho' I confess that my knowledge here is gained from reading, since I have never ridden except in the most temporary and casual of pace lines.

But I do agree (same caveat) that Platypuses and such are not optimized for fast paceline riding, while the fast boys' CF racing bikes are..

Back to regular programming.

Patrick Moore, who "got into" cycling at age 14, the year before the book came out.

[George Schick]

Patrick - as far as I know, "honking" may have been used for either seated or standing positions, but the way I recall Sloane describing it, it consisted of placing one's hands on the flat bar tops.  It's difficult to imagine hands in that position when standing on the pedals.

Also, in pacelines that I have ridden in the distant past, I have found that the hands down on the hooks with the fingers "just reachable" to the brake levers is the optimal position.  That way you can gain maximum aerodynamic advantage while "feathering" the brakes as necessary to keep and appropriate distance from the rider ahead of you.  In fact, when Campagnolo was occasionally criticized by some during the 70's that their Record series brakes lacked adequate stopping power, they responded by saying that their brakes were designed to "modulate speed," not just to stop the bike.

[Patrick Moore]

Perhaps American usage is different. In any event, it's of little importance since the important thing is the way of pedaling. And you may be right about riding the hooks in pacelines.

http://www.perfectcondition.ltd.uk/Articles/honking/Honking.htm

https://www.sportsdefinitions.com/cycling/honk/

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[Leah Peterson]

Ok, George, very good, but the question remains: Have you ever gotten in over your head? 

Or did you read all the books…

Leah

Sent from my iPhone

On May 17, 2023, at 3:25 PM, George Schick <bhi...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm old, old, and old enough to have used Eugene Sloane's "Complete Book of Bicycling" as my guide into serious cycling back in the early '70's.  In his book he goes through great pains, including photos, to explain the five or so hand positions available to a cyclist riding with standard drop road bars.  Jock as done us a favor by posting an autobiographical photo of him riding with his hands on the brake lever hoods.  In addition, hands may be positioned on the bend of the bars with just the first part of the index finger digit on the brake lever hoods, they may be positioned on the downward bend of the bars, and they may grip the flats on the top of the bars, and, of course, all the way down on the drops.  All of these positions may be used to the advantage of the rider as conditions vary through climbing, fatigue (especially in the lower back, but also in the hands), and when riding into a strong headwind.  If a rider is approaching a steep incline he/she has the option of either gripping hands around the brake lever hoods and standing (muscling) up the slope or staying seated and gripping hands around the flats, spinning at high cadence all the way up (what used to be called "honking").  If a rider is in a paceline he/she has the option of either gripping the brake lever hoods and crouching down or going hands all the way down on the drops in order to gain best advantage of the draft behind the cyclist ahead.  Sloane recommended using a bike set up this way for touring as well and never recommended (to the best of my recollection) the use of bikes set up differently except for casual riding (unless you're Freddy Hoffman).

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[George Schick]

Worthy question, but it all depends upon what one means by "getting in over your head."  My honest answer to that would be "yes" during the mid-70's when I attempted to compete in what was then known back then as "Cat. 4" amateur racing.  This was when I was in my mid-20's and I attempted to compete in a criterium and in a time trial.  I fell way, way behind in both events and gave up on amateur racing since I discovered that I possessed neither the right "build" nor the proper stamina to compete in events like that.

I did, though, participate in semi-weekly "training" rides where most of us would continually get dropped by the club captain and Cat. 3 racer (they only had 4 categories back then before pro).  I eventually fell away from any participation in any of these goings-on due to family circumstances and requirements (new born child, etc.) and saw no interest in picking them up again after that, though I continued to ride several times a week with a co-worker over a 25 mile course and was content with that.

So, yes, over my head, but I retreated to what I found to be my "comfort zone" instead of trying to continually push the envelope, as it were.  And I've enjoyed cycling ever since, though not in group rides after the early 80's, but on my own or, as you put it, as a "lone wolf" with an occasional tag-along, as the situation presented itself.

As captain Briggs used to always say in Clint Eastwood's "Dirty Harry" sequel, "Magnum Force," "...good man always knows his limitations..."
 

[lconley]

The most recent time that I got in over my head was my 4th attempt at the Cross-Florida Ride. I had completed the previous three attempts - 170 miles in 1 day in 1982, 175 miles in 1 day in 1983, 170 miles in two days in 2016 (on my Bombadil). I tried again in 2017 on my Sam, but was very out of shape and it was very, very hot - in the 90s in April. This was during the time when I was basically living in Everett, WA. I got to about the 145 mile point on the second day and just could not make myself ride any further. I was completely cooked, so I took the SAG to the end. I do have a picture from the 1st day (note the misspelling of "CITRUS" on the monument). The top tubes and chain stays look so short to me now.

Laing

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 8:37:20 AM UTC-4 lconley wrote:

The answer is yes, but not recently. The upcoming North Carolina Riv Ride will be a challenge - no hills to practice on in south Florida.

Note that you can still do an aero tuck even on a flat bar Platypus - its is kind of awkward, your hands are sort of beside your shoulders, or you can put your hands near the stem under your chest, but it beats pedaling downhill. You might have to put your water bottle in a frame mounted cage though.

You don't need a Roadini - a naked drop bar platypus would work just fine. Although a sparkly raspberry Rodeo.......

You can never have too many Rivendells.

Laing

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 9:13:53 PM UTC-4 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

I just want to talk bikes. I don’t have anything to post FS or WTB…I just want to tell Riv people this dumb story that happened this morning. You can laugh or you can roll your eyes, or you can chime in with your own dumb story of getting in over your own dumb heads.

This is my second season of club riding. I was new to it last year, and now that our weather is finally cooperating, I’m back.

Last week, our bike club started a new ride. It would be on Monday mornings and only 5 miles from my house. The pace was to be “conversational” which I took to mean ‘riding at a pace you can still have a conversation at.’ (I now know that could not be what it meant.) The route would be new. The details were fuzzy - word was, the ride leader would make decisions about pace and miles once people arrived. Now, I know Platypuses are not going to fare well in the 18-21 mph crowd, but I knew that two women upwards of 70 did this ride last week. I figured I’d be fine.

I was the second to arrive; the first being the president of our bike club. He was pulling his gravel bike out of his truck. He’s a roadie and he leads the 17-18 mph groups. Hmmm.  We’re friendly; I’m glad to know one person on the ride, but if he is here, how fast are we going? Two more people arrive; both men, roadies, and they pull jet-black, lethal-looking, feather-light carbon bikes from their vehicles. They are strangers to me.

Ok, well, it’s going to be fine. Who cares if you’re the only woman. So what if you’re wearing your pink pants. Clutching the wide, sweepy bars of your sparkly pink Platypus. Their eyes are hidden behind their Oakleys, and I imagine what they are thinking - “She cannot be serious.” 

Behind my Oakleys, I am thinking, “I cannot be serious.” 

The three of them begin to discuss the route and the pace. The ride leader says, “The route is hilly. Let’s keep a 17 mph pace in the flats.” As soon as I hear that the route is hilly, I want OUT. I have always kept up in my club rides, but hills are the one thing that the Platypus does not do well. Oh, a Platypus can climb, but don’t ask it to do it at high speeds. I use momentum to get me uphill. To compensate, I always shoot ahead of the group, but I slow on the incline and those carbon bikes are gaining on me near the top. About the time they catch me, I’m back up to speed and am innocent of causing anyone to slow down, but that extra effort is the price I pay. The game is: Never Make Them Slow Down For You Even If You Have A Heart Attack. 

My mind is searching for a way out. I don’t have a good feeling about this. It’s early in the season. Maybe if I was in tip top, but today? But then came introductions. J, the president says, “This is Leah. She’s fine. She can keep up with us.” Liar, I think.

And with that, we are off.

We hit a hill right out the gate. I’m toward the back because I don’t know the route. They are calmly approaching that hill, not changing speed. I’m confused. They’re slowing me up; it’s too late for me to get around them. I will not have the burst of speed I need to start that hill. And worse, I’m in too high of a gear. I have friction shifting - and now I’m committed. I am desperate not to look like a fool. I am standing on my pedals, wishing for the first time in my life that I am 10 pounds heavier. All my weight on the left pedal. All my weight on the right pedal. Tossing the bike side to side. Panting. Heart wildly beating. Wishing I was somewhere else. I don’t know if I can do this, and we have just begun. And the two guys in front are now sailing uphill and creating a wide chasm between us. This is the worst first impression. But looking behind me, one of them is having a harder time with that hill than me. So, at least I’m not LAST. 

The leaders soft pedal and we regroup. New strategy. Way lower gears on the uphill. Pedal like a rabid animal on the downhill. Announce I’m going around them to get enough speed/momentum.

This works better. “Hey, Leah’s getting a better workout than us!” they joke. “She’s pedaling downhill AND uphill!” Yes, she is, and she’s exhausted. I push something on my Apple Watch and screw up the metrics. I look to J - how many miles have we gone, I ask. 

“11.” 

This is a 25 mile ride. I’m going to die, right here on my Platypus. 

The flats have them screaming down the road. They want to go fast, so do I. It’s just that it costs me a little extra. I have to push, but this I can do. The man behind me is loving it. I am giving him the loveliest draft, he says. I look behind me and am shocked that he is right on my wheel. That is new to me. I hope he’s good at it.

I’m always the fastest on the downhill in the women’s ride. But these men tuck in, get low, and even just coasting they sail downhill, passing me. I wonder how fast they are going. I am wildly pedaling in my hardest gear and barely feel resistance.

I love the stop signs. Just a small break to fully inflate my lungs and slow my pulse is heavenly. I learn to shift to lower gears as we approach the stop sign so that I can start at a faster pace. 

J asks me how I like this ride. I tell him it’s a gorgeous route that I don’t know if I’m ever doing again. “But think how strong you would be!” he says. I am not tempted.

The last few miles are flat and fast. We eat up the miles quickly.  I am relieved to get back to the parking lot. Elated that I made it. Humbled by how much I am still learning. The guys are complimentary; last week was a slower ride and they are happy they got to go at their pace this week.

I am in my vehicle, thinking lots of thoughts. I mostly believed my Platypus could do anything…because I love it. In the other rides I’ve attended, it did what I asked. But it is not as efficient or fast as the bikes these men have. And it is not a speed climber. It cannot be everything, but it is still the only bike I want to ride. It has tons of advantages; I accept its minor limitations. I’ll ride it joyfully. This is the bike I want to make the memories with. 

I discover I don’t like suffering. I do like a push. I want a challenge. Give me some hard! But when hard becomes panic, the fun drains out. 

I don’t know if I’ll be back to that ride. But I’m glad I went.

Have you ever gotten in over your head?

Leah

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

Toshi, I so agree! I like to ride tough rides to challenge myself and increase fitness. I don’t have to win; I just want to be stronger than I was….well, and not to slow the group down. I double agree with you that I will finish a hard ride and vow never to do it again and then do it again. Good on you for being slow on the fast ride and not giving up. If my first club ride had gone horribly, I’d have quit. I know it.

L

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

Ted, You’re lucky to have found a riding partner that matches your rhythm. Hang on to that friendship!

Our club is pretty strict about obeying traffic rules and being polite. We had one guy complain about a group of us on a ride saying that the group was 3 wide. It went right to the club president - it’s a small enough city that citizens know who to call - who told every ride leader to address the problem, which they did. I’d never ride with a contentious group. Too many angry people with hair-trigger tempers driving cars these days. I want to get home alive and in working order.
L

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 9:58:20 AM UTC-4 Ted Durant wrote:

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

Rich, ha! This pretty much sums it up, doesn’t it?! Thanks for finding this.

L

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

You look fantastic, Jock. Just plain fit.  Kudos and bravo and all that stuff. I love your description of happy country rides, lost in your thoughts. I am going to try to squeeze one of those in tomorrow. But guess what I’m doing after that? I got talked into brining my Platypus to an intro to gravel biking ride. Ha!

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

Aw, thanks, Jason! 

Everything you say is true about the challenges of riding an upright bike. I have thought about drop bars but I’ve never used them and I don’t think I want to, even if they help. I see the other riders shaking the numbness out of their hands and I just don’t think I could get used to it. 

In sum, to address what many people said earlier in the thread:

 I know that the Platypus isn’t the ideal club ride bike; Grant himself has told me this. But I just *like* my Platypus. It’s pretty and comfortable and special and I’m attached. There will come a time when its limits will either make me decide I don’t want to expend the effort OR I just flat won’t be able to keep up. But until then, I am not planning on a “real” road bike. 

Just a Racing Platypus.

Leah

[Pam Bikes]

Do your ride -  your own way -  on your bike.  You know I only ride my Betty.  I ride w/plenty of carbon fiber, Ti bikes.  I don't like to go that fast so I usually don't do group road rides.  I don't want to be going fast w/people who I'm not familiar with or a route I'm not familiar with.  I've led lots of rides and I'm used to posting the route in advance, signaling turns in advance, etc.  But I plan the route to be socialable which means flatish and hills at the beginning instead of the end of the ride.  But I do all social rides.  The road bikes may go faster but I can go farther since the Riv is so comfortable.

[Garth]

I remember when I was pickup w/a shell camping traveling out West from Ohio and spent a few days to rest and ride in Utah with my sister and her husband I'll call JE who own/runs a local bike shop and a quite strong rider, or so I read and heard. It's not like I had ever ridden with him before, let alone spent any time with him. So the first day I arrive I go out riding with his teenage son I'll call AN and I'm not feeling so great and have a hard time keeping up the 20 some miles we ride. So it goes ... The next day JE plans a ride of unknown duration with a buddy of his I'll call CA, AN and yours truly. The city rests in a valley which is surrounded on three sides by mountains. We head to one of more "gentle" uphill roads out of town up a pass, a state highway and it's relatively even grade. The first 10 miles are in the valley and to the top of the pass is another 6 miles. Everything is peachy until we hit the pass. I'm used to steep hills in Ohio, but not mile are after mile of steady mountain grades, so I feel like a boat anchor to the other three and lag behind, and they wait for at the top of the pass. At the top I learn they're just getting started and plan on riding another 45 miles or something. That's not anything I was used to, and I'm not feeling great at the time so I decided it to return to the valley and ride some extra miles on my own.  Dirty Harry would agree that was the right move for the moment.

A few days later JE plans another that includes a less steep 16 mile valley canyon for about 47 miles total. He figures that'll be "easier" on me.... he tells me later. So we hum along and get to the valley entrance where a lone rider is spotted ahead. JE knows him and tells me he doesn't want him riding with us.... and rather than tell him to get lost, it turns into a surreal game of "let's drop him". So JE and CA begin to hammer. Oh ..... now I see how JE really is a "pretty strong rider" and we're flying along in big rings and after the initial "what have I gotten myself into, again ?" I mean, we're flat out racing ..... I don't know what the thing was between JE and tag-along guy, but whatever it was enough of an excuse for JE to engage in the game, and it's either play along or be the one dropped... heeheehee !  Well not today, not here, not now. Dirty Harry agrees. Tag-a-long guy isn't dropped either. The turnaround is a little awkward, to say the lest.... no fun being involved in dramas you have no part in. The ride back down wasn't as hard for the obvious reason, it being downhill and tag-a-long guy wasn't going to go away until we returned to the Valley where he turned off. 

I was used to racing and group rides and all but I didn't expect one to break out there !  In all my group rides that I did no one ever crashed or really had anything go awry. In racing I crashed "over my head" for real once when some riders crashed right in front of me in a criterium and I had nowhere to else to go but in/over them. That was surreal, to say the least. There's many times in racing where I was wondering I belonged, getting dropped up steep hills and catching up on the down. Racing/group riding is wild though in that I found myself riding harder than I ever did on my own. Mostly though I prefer to ride on my own as I have nothing to prove or attain. I just love to ride my bike, that's it, period. Now I love riding fast when I feel like it, and I've returned to riding like I used to in the 80's, nice and stretched out with a long reach, and  a relatively flat back. While this certainly does make riding into the wind easier, that's not why I do it. I do it because it feels most natural of all, even uphill. I tried the more upright thing for years and it always felt like a struggle, like I'm trying to ride in a position that doesn't suit me at all. I still have the Albatross bars on my two bikes, but they're near level with my saddle and very stretched out. They also have bar end brake levers and they're taped with padded tape over the curve. Here I'm able to use the full extension of the bar. I could do without the rear 3 inches, but I'm not chopping them as it's not in the way, my reach is quite long. I have some Albastache and drop bars to try out, but it's not about the bar shape necessarily, it's about the proper reach and position of my hands and arms and my posture, for which the bars serve as the means by which my hands lightly rest and use to steer. With the other bars my hands would be in about the same place anyways. When I'm in the mood I'll do it. Once you have all that, and the core strength to ride low and stretched out with ease, you can use a bunch of various bars as you're not using the bars alone to support yourself. 

[Johnny Alien]

It's interesting that you see them having numbness problems. I have all upright bars now because they work for me but I have found that none of them really give the number of hand positions that a really nice drop bar (or albastache) has. I know that the concept of hand positions are there but with the long stems needed for many of them and just general design I find most of the alternate hand positions are not really useful for anything but brief stints of time.

[Piaw Na(藍俊彪)]

On Thu, May 18, 2023 at 6:57 AM Johnny Alien <johnny....@gmail.com> wrote:

It's interesting that you see them having numbness problems. I have all upright bars now because they work for me but I have found that none of them really give the number of hand positions that a really nice drop bar (or albastache) has. I know that the concept of hand positions are there but with the long stems needed for many of them and just general design I find most of the alternate hand positions are not really useful for anything but brief stints of time.

Lots of people who are used to flat bars  don't have the habit of changing hand positions and so develop numbness. After all, if you're used to a MTB straight bar there are no positions to change to! It also takes effort and time to adjust drop bar positions properly so you can spend lots of time in the drops --- though once you've overcome that learning curve the increase in speed (1-2 mph) is significant --- once I got my brother adjusted to a drop bar he was surprised by how much faster the bike was --- at no increase in discomfort! 

[Mary Franzek]

Leah,

Yes for sure, more than once.  I think most group riders who are woman have done that at some time. I have met very nice riders who stayed back with me, and I had no problem staying back with others. I am very impressed with your strength and preservence.  I could not do that on my Platypus, you obviously have put a good deal of time on it.  

I am sad to sell mine, but I must.  I am hoping you might be able to find a friend who wants it, and then you can ride with her.

Mary,

Buffalo NY

[Leah Peterson]

Hi All,

After Thursday and Friday’s rides, I have more thoughts to add here.

First, I’ve really not ridden gravel as an adult. But I got asked to attend the Intro To Gravel ride last night (“Leah, you have the perfect bike”) for Kalamazoo Bike Week. I guess this is the week I’m trying all the things, so I went, and there were only 3 of us. 

I was squirrely but the Platypus was not. I remember being sucked down by gravel as a kid, so it took some faith to believe I that I could ride on top of it as an adult and not wreck. “The key is to keep pedaling,” said the leader. I said fine, but if I have to get surgery this is your fault. 

I kept pedaling. I did not have to get surgery. 

Our pace was slow because the other woman is new to riding and working on her fitness. We did just 15 miles. I do not know what it is like to ride fast on gravel - is that a thing people like to do? I don’t think that seems safe.

I like that I got to see different parts of the county (counties, actually) and that we only encountered maybe 2 cars. We got chased by 3 dogs, and some of them chased us a second time on the way back. I took off in terror but the leader held his pace and said, “Good dog, good dog”; he hasn’t been bitten yet. I do NOT like that my bike was filthy at the end. I gave it a good cleaning this morning and I don’t want to get in the habit of THAT. I clean enough stuff around here. 

Today was the women’s ride. These girls are fast and I love to ride with them. 

At the pre-ride huddle the leader said it would be a hilly route and I groaned inside. I employed my usual tactic of using momentum to get uphill but there were problems with that strategy today. 1. It meant I had to be the leader, and with a nasty crosswind this got tiring. I led for probably 15 of 26 miles. 2. I was not always able to lead when we encountered a hill. I might be stuck in the middle somewhere, unable to get to the front and having to go the pace of the group.

Fine, I thought, I guess I’ll actually use the granny gear - you know the small cog in the front? I have only ever used that in Vegas on Killer Hill. I’d never dreamed of using it on a club ride for fear that the chain would drop or that it would make me spin like crazy. Well, boy have I been missing out. Using the Granny got me into perfect position to keep a steady pace and not have to be out in front! These things probably do not take most of you a whole year of riding to figure out. 🙄 

I am jubilant and now I believe that the Platypus has NO limitations I don’t care what you and your books say! If you want a fast and comfortable club riding bike, get you a Racing Platypus!

Leah

On May 18, 2023, at 2:20 PM, Mary Franzek <mary.f...@gmail.com> wrote:

Leah,

Yes for sure, more than once.  I think most group riders who are woman have done that at some time. I have met very nice riders who stayed back with me, and I had no problem staying back with others. I am very impressed with your strength and preservence.  I could not do that on my Platypus, you obviously have put a good deal of time on it.  

I am sad to sell mine, but I must.  I am hoping you might be able to find a friend who wants it, and then you can ride with her.

Mary,

Buffalo NY

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[Ted Durant]

On Friday, May 19, 2023 at 3:16:38 PM UTC-5 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

Fine, I thought, I guess I’ll actually use the granny gear - you know the small cog in the front? I have only ever used that in Vegas on Killer Hill. I’d never dreamed of using it on a club ride for fear that the chain would drop or that it would make me spin like crazy. Well, boy have I been missing out. Using the Granny got me into perfect position to keep a steady pace and not have to be out in front! These things probably do not take most of you a whole year of riding to figure out. 🙄 

Actually, it took me a full year to get the front derailer on one of my bikes to shift without drama, and I've been wrenching personally and professionally for 50 years. On a lovely gravel road in Maine, I had just just passed a couple of young women on horses and started up a hill. Flipped the lever and dropped the chain into the chainstay. So much for that new paint, and so much for looking like the cool guy who had thoughtfully announced his presence and rolled quietly and slowly by them. You realize why 1x drivetrains are so popular when that happens. If you're not 100% confident that when you move the lever nothing bad is going to happen, you just don't move the lever. And you miss out on all those wonderful spinny gears. (Turns out I just needed to rotate the inner chainring 1/5 of a circle, shifts immediately and confidently, now.)

And you can stop calling it a granny gear. Well, I'm a Pops, so I guess you can still call it that, if you want.

Oh, and Leah, what are those nice blue pedals on your Platy??

[Piaw Na(藍俊彪)]

Actually, it took me a full year to get the front derailer on one of my bikes to shift without drama, and I've been wrenching personally and professionally for 50 years. On a lovely gravel road in Maine, I had just just passed a couple of young women on horses and started up a hill. Flipped the lever and dropped the chain into the chainstay. So much for that new paint, and so much for looking like the cool guy who had thoughtfully announced his presence and rolled quietly and slowly by them. You realize why 1x drivetrains are so popular when that happens. If you're not 100% confident that when you move the lever nothing bad is going to happen, you just don't move the lever. And you miss out on all those wonderful spinny gears. (Turns out I just needed to rotate the inner chainring 1/5 of a circle, shifts immediately and confidently, now.)

I'm not a professional mechanic, and I ran 3x drivetrains for many years, frequently running them out of spec (24t small chainring, 39 tooth middle ring) The number of times I've dropped the chain has been innumerable. Last year I flipped everything to a 1x drivetrain, and now I don't know why I didn't do so earlier. I don't race, and around here when the terrain changes you don't  need a 1t adjustment, you need at least 2-3 teeth so the bigger jumps don't bother me at all.

[Leah Peterson]

I’ve got 1x on my other Platypus! It’s really nice to have both types of gearing. I don’t know that I really drop my red bike’s chain but I have done it many times on my Clem. I wish that thing was 1x…

It’s good to hear that people like their 1x - Grant talked about it in his blog and he didn’t have the praise for it I was expecting.

On May 19, 2023, at 5:23 PM, Piaw Na <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:



Actually, it took me a full year to get the front derailer on one of my bikes to shift without drama, and I've been wrenching personally and professionally for 50 years. On a lovely gravel road in Maine, I had just just passed a couple of young women on horses and started up a hill. Flipped the lever and dropped the chain into the chainstay. So much for that new paint, and so much for looking like the cool guy who had thoughtfully announced his presence and rolled quietly and slowly by them. You realize why 1x drivetrains are so popular when that happens. If you're not 100% confident that when you move the lever nothing bad is going to happen, you just don't move the lever. And you miss out on all those wonderful spinny gears. (Turns out I just needed to rotate the inner chainring 1/5 of a circle, shifts immediately and confidently, now.)

I'm not a professional mechanic, and I ran 3x drivetrains for many years, frequently running them out of spec (24t small chainring, 39 tooth middle ring) The number of times I've dropped the chain has been innumerable. Last year I flipped everything to a 1x drivetrain, and now I don't know why I didn't do so earlier. I don't race, and around here when the terrain changes you don't  need a 1t adjustment, you need at least 2-3 teeth so the bigger jumps don't bother me at all.

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[Doug Hansford]

I just changed my Clem to 1x and it’s been great. I could never adjust the FD and finally had enough.  

Doug

Sent from my iPhone

On May 19, 2023, at 5:31 PM, Leah Peterson <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[lconley]

Are modern FDs really that bad / hard to adjust? i learned to ride a 2x5 drivetrain (Schwinn Suburban) in 1969. That bike weighed 38 lbs, but it always shifted just fine. I rode 2x and 3x with only Campagnolo Nuovo Record FDs from 1972 to 2002, never a problem (maybe a Suntour Cyclone in there somewhere for a year or two). In common with the Schwinn FD (Huret?) was that they had smooth cages. Still have 3 bikes with Campy NR FDs. i think that many modern derailleurs are built to match a certain crank / chainring combo, and when asked to do something different, do not work as well. I did go with a friction shifted mostly smooth caged Dura-Ace FD-7800 (2003) on my Custom.

Laing

[Doug Hansford]

They probably aren’t that hard to adjust. I just couldn’t get the hang of it. I actually like 2x9 gearing and may try it again at some point.

Doug

Sent from my iPhone

On May 19, 2023, at 6:01 PM, lconley <lco...@brph.com> wrote:

Are modern FDs really that bad / hard to adjust? i learned to ride a 2x5 drivetrain (Schwinn Suburban) in 1969. That bike weighed 38 lbs, but it always shifted just fine. I rode 2x and 3x with only Campagnolo Nuovo Record FDs from 1972 to 2002, never a problem (maybe a Suntour Cyclone in there somewhere for a year or two). In common with the Schwinn FD (Huret?) was that they had smooth cages. Still have 3 bikes with Campy NR FDs. i think that many modern derailleurs are built to match a certain crank / chainring combo, and when asked to do something different, do not work as well. I did go with a friction shifted mostly smooth caged Dura-Ace FD-7800 (2003) on my Custom.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/7aa53ea3-d1ee-44e4-91ca-23f3bf36d8e9n%40googlegroups.com.

[Piaw Na(藍俊彪)]

Are modern FDs really that bad / hard to adjust? i learned to ride a 2x5 drivetrain (Schwinn Suburban) in 1969. That bike weighed 38 lbs, but it always shifted just fine. I rode 2x and 3x with only Campagnolo Nuovo Record FDs from 1972 to 2002, never a problem (maybe a Suntour Cyclone in there somewhere for a year or two). In common with the Schwinn FD (Huret?) was that they had smooth cages. Still have 3 bikes with Campy NR FDs. i think that many modern derailleurs are built to match a certain crank / chainring combo, and when asked to do something different, do not work as well. I did go with a friction shifted mostly smooth caged Dura-Ace FD-7800 (2003) on my Custom.

They're not hard if you stick to the default gearing that Shimano/SRAM/Campy in their infinite wisdom chose for us. Unfortunately that gearing is suitable only for people who live in flatland or are 25 year old strong cyclists.  A 30t small chainwheel is worthless to me. Those of us looking for a low gear of around 19" or less ended up picking much smaller chainrings and discovering that the FD becomes unreliable as a result. I remember it took my bike shop a long time to find a front deraileur that would shift a 24/38/48 combination. And even then I tore that derailleur off by shifting while riding over railroad tracks. One time I shift my tandem (24/39/52) at the wrong time on a climb, and not only tore off the derailleur and broke the chain, but also tore off teeth on the chainrings and sheared off one chainring bolt. The bike shop had to drill out that chainring bolt to put in new chainrings. Yes, two people pedaling hard on a climb can do that to a crank!

It's possible to do bad things to 1x drivetrains too, but fortunately, many ebikes come with one and Shimano/SRAM have had to adjust to the increased torque that ebikes can produce and so those drivetrains are actually hardy when someone like me abuses them.

Piaw

[Patrick Moore]

Maybe I simply don't shift aggressively, but like Laing I never had problems with wide-range 2X compact front setups and even triples back in the 7-speed days seemed to shift fine in and out of the granny with a little care; at any rate, that's what you did if you wanted to get up a steep hill, and dropped chains were not a frequent problem.

Could ever wider cassettes contribute to throwing chains off chainrings?

Now trying a "granny-granny" Mt. Tamer Quad in a 4-ring setup: that didn't work smoothly, but apparently they worked for some people because they stayed on the market for decades.

[Piaw Na(藍俊彪)]

Could ever wider cassettes contribute to throwing chains off chainrings?

The transition to 1x includes a narrow wide chainring and a rear derailleur clutch so chains don't come off chainring. It works. And yes, 2X are much more reliable than 1x. But the default Shimano/SRAM gearing doesn't include a small enough chainring on 2x either!

[Piaw Na(藍俊彪)]

Oops. I meant to write that 2x is much more reliable than 3x. My 2x drivetrain almost never gets into trouble.

[Johnny Alien]

I am not a hardcore 1x advocate but both of my bikes are setup that way and for me personally it just works well. I get the gearing that works for me in a super simple package. 

[Patrick Moore]

24/38/48 was default gearing for triples back in the 7 and 8 speed days; well, perhaps 24/36/46 was more typical but I used the former with no problem.

My question was: Do wide (11-12-13 cog) cassettes with the wider chain angles tend to throw chains off of the grannies in triple ring setups? But how common can those be? No one in his right mind would need 3 rings with 13 cogs -- I think.

On Fri, May 19, 2023 at 4:15 PM Piaw Na(藍俊彪) <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Could ever wider cassettes contribute to throwing chains off chainrings?

The transition to 1x includes a narrow wide chainring and a rear derailleur clutch so chains don't come off chainring. It works. And yes, 2X are much more reliable than 1x. But the default Shimano/SRAM gearing doesn't include a small enough chainring on 2x either!

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[Piaw Na(藍俊彪)]

24/38/48 was default gearing for triples back in the 7 and 8 speed days; well, perhaps 24/36/46 was more typical but I used the former with no problem.

My question was: Do wide (11-12-13 cog) cassettes with the wider chain angles tend to throw chains off of the grannies in triple ring setups? But how common can those be? No one in his right mind would need 3 rings with 13 cogs -- I think.

I have yet to see a triple ring setup with a 11s cassette.  But the problem that most people are trying to solve is not enough low gears. Even though they've added speeds on the back, the moment you switch from a 1x drivetrain the maximum size of the large sprocket drops dramatically (no more 51t sprocket). I don't think you can use the 10-52 or 11-51 sprockets with 2x drivetrains --- neither Shimano nor SRAM will support it. The default drivetrain from Shimano is a 30/46 crank with a 11-36t cassette. That's still a higher low gear than a 40t chainring with an 11-51 cassette and nothing stops the 1x drivetrain user from switching to a 36t front chainring and getting even lower gears.

[Patrick Moore]

No, my remarks bear only on the question whether setting up fds to shift well and actually shifting them is inherently difficult, particularly with small granny rings. The thrust of the discussion was: "I ditched my fd and found life much easier." And this with regard to granny rings in particular. The numbers and sizes of the cogs are secondary issues, and I only brought up 11+ cog cassettes as a speculative cause why nowadays people don't like fds, particularly with triple drivetrains. Piaw pointed out that you just don't use triples with 11+ cogs, so that's probably a red herring.

Open parenthesis. I do not blame anyone for ditching his or her 2X or 3X because he or she found shifting the fd troublesome. If I found mine troublesome I'd do so too. Close parenthesis.

My point was that there seems to be no inherent design flaw or at least major performance liability with fds as such, and that even shifting triple chainrings seemed at least at the time as just "life as usual." But some people like 1Xs because they don't like adjusting and shifting front derailleurs, and that's perfectly fine. Me, find it less complicated to shift the subcompact 2X (42/28 or 26) 10 speed on my Matthews than the 44/36/24 7 speed that was on my Fargo, and I suppose some people carry that one step further and prefer a 1X over a 2X.

[Piaw Na(藍俊彪)]

If you go way back to the 5-6 speed freewheel cassette days, the typical bike was a 10 speed (really 8 speed since you can't go big/big or small/small). It stands to reason once cassettes got to 11s, you didn't really need the front derailleur/shifter any more as long as your low gears/high gears were of sufficient range. Many people also point out that a lot of the gears on the typical 2x drivetrain are duplicates, so you don't really have 22 different gears anyway.

[Piaw Na]

It’s good to hear that people like their 1x - Grant talked about it in his blog and he didn’t have the praise for it I was expecting.

He's never tried 1x with an 11s friction shifter. :-) 

[Leah Peterson]

Lol, Ted, I’m sorry! I’m sure it was the walk of shame for you after that chain dropped. And the paint!!! 

Those pedals are Spank Oozy pedals, anodized in a teal color. I dearly love them, and they have weathered well.

On May 19, 2023, at 4:44 PM, Ted Durant <tedd...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Patrick Moore]

It was frustration with duplicate gears that drove me to riding fixed drivetrains.

Seriously, I used to spend a great deal of time calculating gear charts (good way to while away boring staff meetings). Even with close-ratio crossover triples there were always annoying (conceptually annoying if not so horrible in practice) gaps, in the middle or at either end, together with duplication; you can see why people liked half steps. In fact, half stepping provided more useful gears out of a 5, 6, even 7 speed cassette than crossovers did; the downside was the need of a triple/granny for very low gears. Funny how front derailleurs go from devil to flee to angel to love between crossovers and half-steps.

I used a hybrid 2X crossover/half stepped 7 sp (half-stepped the middle 5, 13 outer with 48/92" for downhills, 32 inner with 45/35" for climbing) for a while that worked very well (Kelly Take-Offs were the perfect shifter), but there was a big jump to the 35" low gear. Riv content: 1995 Riv custom downgraded to daily commuting duty.

[Piaw Na]

I used a hybrid 2X crossover/half stepped 7 sp (half-stepped the middle 5, 13 outer with 48/92" for downhills, 32 inner with 45/35" for climbing) for a while that worked very well (Kelly Take-Offs were the perfect shifter), but there was a big jump to the 35" low gear. Riv content: 1995 Riv custom downgraded to daily commuting duty.

I wrote an early article for the Rivendell Reader about half-step and granny. I works great with 7 speed freewheels where you can pick the sprockets. But after cassettes were introduced you couldn't pick individual sprockets any more so it became impractical. At that point I switched over to crossover + granny, especially when 11-34 cassettes were introduced. Despite Grant's assertions, the new 11s cassettes and chains seem to be quite reliable --- the 11s chain definitely lasts longer than the 9s chain (about 30% longer), and the 11s cassettes on a friction shifter actually shift better --- there's less chance that you'll get stuck in between sprockets when you shift and have to trim. 

[Patrick Moore]

I've been home-building cassettes for 20 years at least after I got sufficiently frustrated with stock combinations; in friction (and even indexed) they have shifted fine. I agree about 11 sp chains; at least, I'm using an 11 on my (custom, built with Miche cogs) 10 sp cassette and I've never had better shifting. Have read many places that 10 sp chains ar longer lasting than 9, 11 than 10. Perhaps will try making an 11 sp cassette with my 10 sp Miche cogs by substituting 11 sp spacers for the 10 sp ones and will try a 12 sp chain.

It's really wonderful how well Barcons (and 8 sp era rd) work with 10 sp cogs and an 11 sp chain; every time I ride the bike in question I'm delighted. Much better, IMO, than friction 7 and 9 speed even with fully stock cassettes and chains.

Do you have a link to or PDF of your halfstep article? Or -- since there are RR archives -- a publication # or date? I'm tempted to set up a half step drivetrain on a bike with disk brakes just because ... (already have another bike with non-aero levers and disk brakes).

On Sat, May 20, 2023 at 8:29 AM Piaw Na <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:

I wrote an early article for the Rivendell Reader about half-step and granny. I works great with 7 speed freewheels where you can pick the sprockets. But after cassettes were introduced you couldn't pick individual sprockets any more so it became impractical. At that point I switched over to crossover + granny, especially when 11-34 cassettes were introduced. Despite Grant's assertions, the new 11s cassettes and chains seem to be quite reliable --- the 11s chain definitely lasts longer than the 9s chain (about 30% longer), and the 11s cassettes on a friction shifter actually shift better --- there's less chance that you'll get stuck in between sprockets when you shift and have to trim. 

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[Piaw Na]

According to 
Rivendell Reader Index - The smell of cold http://notfine.com/rivreader/RR-index.pdf it was rivendell reader #11

[George Schick]

Now that we've pretty thoroughly hijacked this blog thread:  Patrick, if you've been building your own cassettes for 20 years, where have you been able to purchase individual cogs (and spacers) in order to assemble your own desired combination?  Everything I've noticed when removing cassettes from their splined "body" for cleaning or substituting a different combo's was that several of the central cogs are riveted together (which is what I think Piaw was getting at when he said "...after cassettes were introduced you couldn't pick individual sprockets any more...")?

[Corwin Zechar]

Late to the party here - but I think getting in over your head is one of the most exciting things about life.

I find myself getting in over my head at nearly every opportunity.

I've been on club rides where guys twenty years older than me rode away from me going uphill, and downhill!

I've ridden a tandem up places like Mt Tam with a half-blind stoker and gotten caught in the dark.

I've studied and taught martial arts where a critical part of moving up in rank is defending yourself in a "freestyle", where progressively more - first time, one; next time, two, etc. until you get to five attackers - run at you trying to beat the stuffing out of you. The freestyle was always my favorite part of training.

I've been diving at depths of more than 100 feet in places like Lake Tahoe, the Pacific and Caribbean Ocean.

I've singlehanded a 50' sailboat in the Caribbean with only my disabled wife aboard.

I've been rafting on rivers where others lose their lives.

In order to maintain health insurance, I recently took a job that regularly requires me to climb a belt loader (a conveyor belt mounted on wheels) up an incline of about 45 degrees to a height of 20 feet and climb into an aircraft and unload and/or load bags. The most difficult part is closing things up. The veterans like to lower the belt loader to make it easier to close the aircraft door. When you're standing on an incline, 20 feet off the ground focused on securing the door, the first time someone lowers the belt loader, it is truly terrifying.

One of the earliest instances of getting in over my head was during my first teaching job, at a high school in the San Fernando Valley. I had made it through an undergraduate degree in mathematics without actually understanding logarithms. In calculus (and other subjects), various topics require manipulating logarithmic expressions. I learned the mechanics of these manipulations - but without ever understanding the essence of logarithms.

Imagine my heightened excitement on the day we encountered logarithms teaching my Algebra II class. As was my custom, I never prepared lesson plans (still don't). I merely explained all the tenets of the topic of interest, expounded at length on the subtleties, applications, etc. and then did several problems.

On that fateful day, I opened the book and discovered we were to discuss logarithms. My eyes widened and my pulse raced as I scanned the discussion in the book. Miraculously, the essence of the relationships between base, exponent and logarithm flashed before my eyes instantaneously providing me with a complete understanding of the topic. I proceeded with my usual demonstration and discussion of the topic, did several problems, answered questions and assigned homework.

It's been more than forty years since that day. I've taught many classes in math, physics, computer science, and martial arts. I have never had such a revelation since.

I try to get in over my head at every opportunity. I think it offers the best chance of learning something.

Regards,

Corwin

[Patrick Moore]

Now this is an interesting collection of "over my heads." 

Speaking of being ridden away from by people 20 years older than you, a friend who just did his 3rd Santa Fe Century (he is 63 or 64 and very fit) told me that women in the 70s do the entire 107 mile route in less time than he, and nope, not on electric-assist bikes.

That reminds me of 2020, riding the then-new Matthews 2:1 with AM hub wheel shod with, at that point, I think, the ultra-fast 28 mm Elk Pass tires: 76", 66", 57". I came up behind a 2-man paceline: little butterball of an oldster in full lycra racing kit on an apparently top-end carbon fiber bike with extremely loud freewheel (the usual fewspoke design and IIRC radial at least on the NDS; does anyone know what brand this might have been?) being paced by a 20-something youngster on some sort of utterly indefinable generic aluminum road bike. I was in good shape, for me, having done some group rides of 30 to 40 miles in the previous months, but I could not overtake and could barely keep up with this team. I talked to the old guy who said he was 74; I was 64 at the time.

Patrick Moore, now 68 and even slower than in 2020. [OTOH, earlier this year was overhauled by another, much less-buttery 73 year old whom I'd known 15 years earlier; he had been a notable in the ABQ racing scene and even retired was in fully lycra kit with Orbea or somesuch. His first remark -- I was again riding the Matt 2:1, now with Naches Passes, 75/65/56 -- was, "you've got a good spin," which was surprising since IIRC I was torquing up an incline in the 75" gear.]