Heterodoxy — reconciling RBW with the mainstream

[Jay Lonner]

My wife and I are spending a week in northern AZ, which included a day of mountain biking in Sedona. We rented fancy dual-suspension, carbon fiber wonderbikes which are about as anti-Riv as you can get — and it was a fantastic experience! I’ve never ridden such a beast before, and was amazed at the terrain it could handle in the hands of a newcomer to this style of riding. It’s the most fun I’ve had on a bike in years.

I had a Gus in my shopping cart when they were last on sale, but ultimately didn’t go through with the purchase because I want to be free to experiment with builds that depart from the Riv way of doing things, such as IGHs and disc brakes. And now I’m doubly glad I held off, because I am giving serious consideration to buying a fully modern mountain bike.

In retrospect I think I gave too much credence to the idea of underbiking. There’s no way I could have handled this sort of terrain on a Riv-style bike — I would have been walking it the entire time. And while that may be the lowest common gear, as a former commenter here liked to say, it wouldn’t have been nearly as fun.

So I guess this is part confession and part query — who else mixes and matches their Rivendells with the sort of modern ironmongery that would give Grant & Co. conniptions? 

Jay Lonner

Bellingham, WA (but temporarily in Sedona, AZ)

[Paul Clifton]

I have a reasonable range of bikes, including a full suspension mountain bike (and access to terrain that takes advantage of it). I think my experiment in full suspension is drawing to an end though, and I'll probably sell my Knolly Warden some time this year. It's just too much. I wanted to learn to jump and drop and all that wild stuff, and I do have a wild streak, but I don't have the mind and body of a 15 year old, and I never had any skills coaching, like a BMX kid would have, so it just doesn't seem to be happening. I keep hurting myself, and I blame that partially on the bike - it encourages me to take risks I wouldn't normally take because I know the machine can make up for a lot of my lack of skill. I'm actually a reasonably skilled rider, and as long as my wheels aren't leaving the ground, I can ride pretty much any terrain on any bike, so I'm very excited about my incoming Gus, and fully intend to put it through it's paces. I'll leave jumps and drops taller than my knee for folks have the skills to ride them.

The advantages I've found to full squish are rolling over stuff and traction. My Knolly with 27.5x2.5 tires rolls over everything about the same as my Jones with 29x3. There are some chunks the Jones handles better, but there are some gullys and roots that I like the Knolly on more, so it's pretty impressive what some good suspension will do. Traction, on the other hand, is the thing I feel like I'd be giving up, both downhill and up. The Knolly's linkage design is really good for rear wheel traction, especially climbing rooty mud or slick slabs. There are actually a lot of technical climbs that I can do on the Knolly that I can't do on any of my other fully rigid bikes (my other MTB is a Riv Rosco Med Mtn Mixte). I got to ride the Knolly at Angel Fire bike park for a couple days last summer, and it was a blast. I would not have enjoyed any of my other bikes there at all, but maybe a modern hard tail would have been sufficient. That's not the kind of riding I'm really super in to though.

So for me, it comes down to whether I want to spend the time, money, and mental energy maintaining the most complicated bike in my fleet, just so I can go climb a slick slab 3 or 4 times a year, and well, I think I've hit a point in my life where I don't really want to do that. I've barely had the mental energy to fiddle with the compression settings on the suspension TBH, and I'm sure I could dial it in a bit more. And the Gus isn't here yet, so I'm not making any decisions, and even if the Gus is exactly what I think it is, I may still just sell the Knolly to buy a 29er hardtail for my shred sled, because there really is so much fantastic, dedicated, bike-specific trail out here that it's hard to imagine not having a modern geo MTB built for crazy steep descents - suspension or not.

Paul in AR

[ascpgh]

I did the same much longer ago, pre-Rivendell. The bike complimented my time and trail acquired skills but also introduced more maintenance needs and unknown intervals of service and parts consumption. It showed me that technology is a fast moving train and anywhere you get on it won't be long before you are not so much obsolete but certainly not cutting edge. Bike companies were selling bike experiences, I was interested in riding experiences.

My "modern" bike wasn't an enduro design but enough to introduce the possibility of cycling not being rewarding when out on rides with folks on the latest new bikes and I started riding alone to avoid that. Technology supplanted skills. Someone on a wide tired full SUS bike could traverse terrain that a veteran rigid or hardtail rider with years of learned skills. The idea of expanding access to the sport and all the cup half full perspectives didn't account for terrain no longer being enough for many new bike riders so they increased speed on existing trails and began construction of ramps and park features to meet the capabilities of their hardware. When the bikes fell short and the riders didn't have the skills to ride it out, folks got hurt. Some bounced back, more just stopped riding and a few lawyered-up, looking for liability to attach and share their expenses. 

Time has reinforced that what I enjoy about riding isn't about what a more complicated bike will provide, it's the surroundings. The same has been true about the cars I've had along the way. I wouldn't know what to do with a Nissan GT-R (besides keep a bank account and service calendar for it) and I doubt it would have been as fun to me or go as many places as the Fiat with the limited slip differential in this picture.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Ben Mihovk]

I might be outing myself and will lose a lot of respect for this, but my OTHER big obsessive hobby is golf. I even work in a golf store during the summers. 

I only bring this up because this post makes me think about technology in golf. There are people who play golf equipment that's lacking in technology because they want to let their skill/technique/creativity be the focus of their experience instead of optimizing for performance. Then there are people who want every technological advancement and want to pay exorbitant amounts of money for components that they believe will help them unlock every ounce of potential in their swings. They want performance to be the experience.

Neither golfer is wrong to want what they want out of their experiences.

If mountain biking is more fun for you on a modern, fully-equipped bike, then that's what you should buy to mountain bike. If mountain biking is more fun when you really feel the challenges and struggles but want to push yourself, then I think a Riv is the bike for that situation.

Neither rider is wrong to want what they want out of their experiences.

Ben in Omaha, where there are no mountains. 

[Shoji Takahashi]

I borrowed my in-laws' hardtail to ride with them. I'd never ridden a "good" hardtail before, and it was fun. But, like Paul, I'm not interested in learning about suspension maintenance, tuning, etc. On the hardtail, it was easier to perform certain maneuvers that I could barely do on my Jones. (I think I need to learn to shift my weight more and do so faster. The front suspension helps provide a gauge of preload.)

Jones SWB fills my stable for general mountain bike use, and I can pretty much keep up with friends on the trails we ride. 

NB: I'm intrigued by ebikes as I get older and as my SO would like to try them out. Might have to learn about those different systems...

Shoji

Arlington MA

[George Schick]

This is an interesting subject and there have been some good replies.  Golf was mentioned.  I recall when clubs with fiberglass then later carbon fiber shafts were introduced.  They made a big difference in the game for someone with a slow, mild swing.  Later, oversized drivers came along.  They gave the skilled golfer a distinct advantage.  Sobeit 

In the mid-70's "standard" wooden tennis rackets were supplanted with oversized net surfaces and aluminum shanks.  That advancement clearly improved the game for many tennis buffs.

But over the years there have been attempts to push things a bit too far.  I remember when someone designed a tennis racket with soft, spaghetti-like material in the netting.   This allowed the player to put "english" on the ball that made return volleys nearly impossible and it was hastily outlawed by various amateur and professional tennis associations.

I used to do .22 rimfire silhouette shooting back in the 70's.  Then some yahoo came along and invented a rifle with an electronic trigger wired to a laser sight that wouldn't allow the shooter to pull the trigger unless the rifle was absolutely dead-on the target.  That device, too, was outlawed.  It took the fun out of the sport and took competition down the drain.

I could go on, but the point is...where does one cross the line between something that requires work and skill to develop an expertise versus just throwing money at an innovation that runs ragged over everyone else?  So... back to the subject of bikes, especially off-road MTB.  I've had people riding $7K CF fat tired 1x11 bikes blow past me on the trails like I was standing still.  They wanted to pay that much for the extra edge and it's their prerogative to do so.  But I'm afraid that I have to draw the line with these e-bikes.  Posters on some blogs insist on referring to them as "mopeds" and for all intents and purposes, that is exactly what they are.  Back when MTBing first became popular I remember reading lots of rants and complaints from hikers who felt endangered by riders barreling down a path at full tilt.  But gradually private, pay-as-you-go MTB courses were developed and that pretty much separated the fully competitive riders from the hikers.  Not so with e-bikes.  During the past several years I've noticed a steady increase in those mechanized two-wheeled contraptions on trails...and it's gradually becoming a dangerous threat to regular cyclists.

So, in the final analysis, advancement in technology is not necessarily a bad thing as long as it doesn't go to far, is kept in a proper environment, and doesn't interfere with others.

On Thursday, February 10, 2022 at 7:49:11 PM UTC-6 Jay Lonner wrote:

[Christopher Cote]

It's interesting when you reach that point where you have to say "hey, maybe everyone else isn't wrong, maybe I've been brainwashed?" Just kidding, it isn't that bad, but I do think that Grant unfairly criticizes mainstream MTB bikes and riding, though. I've ridden modern full suspension bikes and they're nice, but my chosen level of bike grouchery is a steel 29+ tire hardtail or rigid 26x4-5" fat bike. Low overhead, high (enough) performance for me.

Chris

On Thursday, February 10, 2022 at 8:49:11 PM UTC-5 Jay Lonner wrote:

[Brady Smith]

I regularly ride my Riv-styled BMC monster cross with a Rapha brevet jersey and Rivendell MUSA pants. I like the look, the jersey is great, and sometimes the pants are a welcome break from the usual lycra, especially in moderate temperatures. 

As for bikes, I too have been tempted by full-suspension mountain bikes, but in the end I decided that the BMC La Cabra was probably my best bet, and it's been great for the relatively mild singletrack available in the greater SLC area. Not having suspension forces me to ride more slowly and pick good lines, and the TRP Hylex disk brakes I have on it make speedy descents viable in a way they wouldn't be on a Gus. I have thought about adding a hardtail to the stable, but as I explained the idea to my wife, she said, "So you're proposing to spend $4k on a bike to avoid the 3 minutes you spend walking out of a 3 hour mountain bike ride?" It sounds kind of silly when you put it that way. 

[Bill Lindsay]

Jay Lonner used the subject line "Heterodoxy -- reconciling RBW with the mainstream"  He then explained he rented a wonderbike and did a ride suited for that wonderbike.  Jay Lonner explained the experience was a first, and now wants to do it more.

My question is: Do you really consider your one day wonderbike enabled ride to be a "mainstream" activity?  Have you been living an "extreme", "fringe" cyclist lifestyle, and only now are returning to "normal" cycling activity?  

I think you have it flipped.  I think the kind of cycling that a wonderbike enables is not mainstream.  It's extreme.  Pointing out that you would choose to walk a Rivendell on that terrain says a lot about the terrain, a little bit about you, and almost nothing about the Rivendell.  RBW does not need to be reconciled with fringe activities.  Normal cycling is the mainstream.  Extreme cycling is extreme.  Extreme activities make extreme equipment more desirable.  Go for it if that's what you want to do.  

The OP also went on with a question:   "who else mixes and matches their Rivendells with the sort of modern ironmongery that would give Grant & Co. conniptions?"  

I think the term "conniption" is ungenerous.  I can promise that Grant has never had a "fit of rage or hysterics" over other people's extreme mountain biking.  It's 90% not thinking about it, just like he doesn't spend much time thinking about base jumping or alligator wrestling.  He sometimes will type on a computer that he doesn't approve of modern mountain biking.  It's a fact that there are tons of trails in use today that would have been utterly unrideable 40 years ago.   For some of today's mountain bikers the tech has unleashed more opportunities for fun.  For Grant, the technology is a crutch for skill, and allows riders of limited skill to ride places that bicycles should never be.  He can come off as patronizing and grumpy, but it's not a conniption.  

To the question:  I do indeed mix and match my Rivendells with machines that Rivendell would never sell.  I have a 19-pound carbon hardtail XC-racing mountain bike.  It's becoming more retro by the minute because it's a hard tail, and because it's not Boost spacing.  It does have wireless electronic shifting and hydraulic brakes.  Grant has seen it and he thought it was slick.  When I ride with Grant, he has absolutely endless questions about the high school racing scene in which I coach.  Another bike in my stable is a modern gravel racer which has a carbon leafspring fork (Lauf Grit).  The folks at Rivendell loved that bike, and we all shared a laugh when I showed that the Lauf logo emblazoned on the carbon leafspring fork is: "Just Ride".  

I also have another racing bike that Rivendell would never sell:  a cyclocross racing bike.  It's a...oh wait...a Rivendell Legolas.  

In 2022 Rivendell Bicycle Works occupies what they believe should be "the mainstream".  If anybody agrees with that vision and wants to be in the RBW version of the mainstream, then RBW has bikes that will be right at home there.  If anybody wants to leave that mainstream and get shreddy with the shredders, some times or all the times, then there are other machines that allow one to let their shred flag fly.  Do what it is you want to do with your cycling dollars and your cycling hours.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Mike Davis]

My mountain bike is a Yokata El Capitan built in 1990/1991. It is steel, has a switchblade front fork and hard tail. It has ridden and works pretty well for alot of technical riding. It works well to commute to work. It can take racks, panniers, and fenders. It is 31/32 years old. 

I'm not seeing many carbon fibre bikes from that time that can take fenders, racks and panniers. I see quite a few on walls though. 

My point is that my riding time, such as it is, is not spent trying to make jumps or travel terrain far more suitable for walking than biking. That bike cost $600 in 1990. That's about $1200 today and it still works. Granted it has been maintained. Wheels, chains, cassettes and cranks have been replaced. But it keeps going like a timex. 

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[Jay Lonner]

So upon further reflection I’m starting to realize that the act of riding my bike can get so bound up with political and aesthetic considerations that I forget to have fun. Most of my biking is utilitarian commuting and grocery hauling, and sometimes that can get to be a drag. There are days when the weather is crummy or I have a late meeting or I slept a little too long and riding my bike seems more like a chore than anything else. What was eye-opening for me riding this technological wonder of a machine was that it was just pure fun, in a way that I haven’t experienced on a bike for a long time.

More than anything else I guess this is a wake-up call to myself that I can get a little too hung up on having a “pure” experience at the expense of my own enjoyment. I really have no interest in super technical off-road riding with huge drops or otherwise extreme terrain. It was just really nice to go on a ride in beautiful surroundings and let the bike soak up the bumps. I wish there was an easy way to demo other bikes that come at this problem in different ways (such as a Gus or the Jones and Black Mountain options mentioned upthread), but for now I’m going to remain open to the possibilities and try to remind myself that while I have a lot of respect for Riv/Grant there’s really no right or wrong way to have fun on a bike.

Jay Lonner

Bellingham, WA

Sent from my Atari 400

On Feb 11, 2022, at 9:04 AM, Brady Smith <bradys...@gmail.com> wrote:

I regularly ride my Riv-styled BMC monster cross with a Rapha brevet jersey and Rivendell MUSA pants. I like the look, the jersey is great, and sometimes the pants are a welcome break from the usual lycra, especially in moderate temperatures. 

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[Patrick Moore]

If the fundamental purpose of riding is to have fun, which it is for
me, then I'd say that one should modify your Rivs in any way that make
them more fun, and of course that is different for each rider. IMO,
there's no shame in proselytizing for one's personal technology or
equipment preferences, but to make these dogmatic is just silly.

Me: clipless pedals (tho' I like 1 bike with clips and straps -- but
no non-retention! Tried it and disliked it), close ratio gears, narrow
handlebars (I'm not small), lowish bars (tho at near-67 "low" is not
as low as it was 15 years ago), drop bars with little or no flare for
road riding or light dirt, disc brakes for dirt, and hub gears. There
is no absolute or universal justification for these choices, it's just
what I like.

Open to conversion on: super-long wheelbases and some of the narrower
Rivendell sweepback bars: I've not tried any since the Priest and
original Moustache bars.

One very big difference for one of my ideal bikes to what Riv offers
is fattish tires, not fatbike width but "plus" width in 700C size, for
our sand. Sorry, 50s are just skinny and hard when it comes to bosque
sand, and 70-pluses at 13 psi are wonderful.

[Patrick Moore]

Andy: That's an appealing photo. Do you drive the Fiat fast on empty dirt roads? Or is it slow, scenic drives?

While a jr and sr in college I worked as a watchman, mostly weekend nights, for the 20th Century Fox Ranch, now Malibu State Park, which was right across Las Virgines Road from our then-campus on the old Gillette estate. We had 8 miles of dirt road and rutted doubletrack to patrol to keep trespassers, vandals, and the local cattle off the sets -- Mash, Swiss Fam Rob, Tora Tora Tora, etc. They gave us beaters from the studio lot, and I fondly recall a 1964 Dodge Polara that I'd get up to 70 at 2 am on the wider short straights, and in which I got pretty damned good at driving sideways. A tour was supposed to take us 45 minutes; I got it down to just under 17, and this involved a lot of reversing out of dead ends. The super would complain but he was too lazy to get up at night to catch us. Cars usually lasted us a few months before we beat them into inoperability. But great fun, and I aced Math and Science with all the undistracted weekend study time.

On Fri, Feb 11, 2022 at 6:09 AM ascpgh <asc...@gmail.com> wrote:

... Time has reinforced that what I enjoy about riding isn't about what a more complicated bike will provide, it's the surroundings. The same has been true about the cars I've had along the way. I wouldn't know what to do with a Nissan GT-R (besides keep a bank account and service calendar for it) and I doubt it would have been as fun to me or go as many places as the Fiat with the limited slip differential in this pictur

[Patrick Moore]

Shoji: Would your Jones take 700C X 76mm/3" (true with) tires and with a ss drivetrain allow a sub 160 mm Q factor? I should investigate Jones as a replacement for the Monocog, on which there is only 2-3 mm of clearance between stays and knobs for tires measuring 72 mm (knob to knob).

Thanks.

[Patrick Moore]

Just read Chris's mention of his fatbike. That's what I'd choose to
replace the Monocog if I could get one with a Q lower than 161 mm, but
I don't think that's possible even with a ss drivetrain.

[aeroperf]

Rivendell bikes are boutique bikes, like Prada sells boutique purses.  You’re paying a premium for the name.  You’re also getting lugs, and a comfortable ride.

My forever bike is my 2015 55 Sam.  I’ve had people call it a “Classic”. It’s not.  It’s new.  I’ve had people call it “Retro”.  It’s not.  It’s not “going back to” anything.
It’s a design that hasn’t changed since the ’90s or before.  1” threaded headset, square taper bottom bracket, rim brakes, no suspension.

That doesn’t make it bad.  The Rivendell ride, which is justly famous, is due to Grant’s design of the steel frame.  He does what he does, and we love the bikes because of it.
But everything is a compromise, and in return, if you buy into the Riv philosophy, you give up state-of-the-art.

Rivs are fringe bikes.  The mainstream has moved on in so many ways.
“Normal cycling is the mainstream”, so count the Rivendells you see on a daily basis, compared to Trek or Giant or Specialized or Cannonade or…
Dang few.  “Normal cycling” is TIG welded and running Hollowtech II drive trains with disc brakes.

For touring I use a Soma Saga Disc.  Still steel, but with disc brakes for those long downhills with 40 pounds of gear.
I love my Sam, with the lugs and the ride.  But it is a boutique bike.  A very comfortable, very pretty boutique bike.  It’s not supposed to be mainstream.

[Ben Adrian]

Okay, I'll jump in.

We're all on a bike mailing list specializing in once specific brand and
type of bikes. Granted, they are more practical bikes than specialist
bikes, but we're all still bike nerds here. I have a carbon gravel/road
bike, a steel commuter and errand bike, and my Riv as my "zippy, do
whatever" bike.

Now, in general, most people who are bike nerds tend to specialize in
one or more specific types of riding; MTB, gravel, high performance
road, randonneuring, etc. With bike nerdery come riding nerdery, I
suppose. I can be extreme in both bike/component choice and riding
choice. And while this is extreme in performance, it's kind of the
mainstream for "people really into bikes."

Then, there are people who are kind of average, utilitarian riders.
They're generally not bike nerds. My wife has an ebike for commuting,
errands, and the occasional fun ride. It's like a Toyota Corolla... but
a bike. The brand and the specs don't really matter so long as it's
reliable and functional.

However, Riv bike owners/riders seems to appreciate both the
practicality and utilitarian nature of these bikes, AND the gear head,
bicycle craft, nice component nature of bikes. It's an uncommon
crossover, and it's something I find I have to describe to both by
extreme cycling friends AND my non-cycling friends who might just have
their "errand bike."

But it's fun! I love maintaining my Riv. I love the classic look of my
bike. I love being able to fix and maintain everything with a pretty
basic tool set. I love the fact that I can find really nice parts for
usually pretty cheap because they're not the latest modern standard. I
love the joy of riding my very nice bike in everyday situations.

For me, I kind of enjoy playing around with the Riv trends because they
usually work well. Here's how I've come to explain the Riv culture to
people who aren't familiar. Riv bikes tend to take the best parts of
practical bike design from the 70s, 80's and 90's and put them all
together on one classic looking bike.

Cheers!
Ben
P.S. L.A. folks, we should all try to do a meetup soon-ish!

[David Person]

I like your idea for a meetup Ben.  I tried to get a small group together last summer in Simi Valley, but it didn't happen.

David in Thousand Oaks

[John Phillips]

Jay,

    Your existential bicycle crisis seems to suggest not so much do whatever floats your boat, but that you need to go out and float your boat more often in the boat of your choice!  ;-)

    I found practical errand biking just added way too much drudgery & stress to my life. I'm not an adrenaline junkie and playing frogger on a bike just doesn't do it for me. Nor did I enjoy carrying a Hunqapillar & bags of groceries up two flights of stairs when the elevator was out of order.

Just ride (ing for fun)

John

On Thursday, February 10, 2022 at 5:49:11 PM UTC-8 Jay Lonner wrote:

[lconley]

They don't make carbon fiber bikes for 280 lb. people with long torsos and short legs.

People somehow managed to ride up and down mountains for decades before the existence of small diameter disc brakes.

But mostly,  life is too short to ride an ugly bike. 

My one semi-modern bike that I plan to keep is my Trek District - Aluminum frame with carbon fiber forks and belt drive - still has sidepulls.

Laing

[Patrick Moore]

The technical term is "anorak."

Patrick Moore, who gets a kick out of old fashioned Brit slang.

On Fri, Feb 11, 2022 at 11:12 AM Ben Adrian <bunny...@gmail.com> wrote:

... nerds ...

[ascpgh]

I drove that car on hundreds of miles of Forest Service double track and "roads" as my shuttle for rides in those Ozarks. It's not "drifting" if it's what you have to do to keep the windshield pointing where you want the car to go. "Plowing" was what my SAAB 99EMS before the Fiat did until I learned the Flying Finn, Rauno Aaltonen's left foot braking technique to correct understeering and introduce oversteer. Operational mastery of my string shitty little cars was fun greater than anything possible with any new model of any price. There's a bicycle analogy there.

Yeah, I'm experiential across the board. I don't feel drawn to do the same route again, let alone need to optimize it. I gave up all that competitive stuff when I ended my competitive shooting. I know what commitment and full life immersion feels and tastes like to be ready for competition at the highest level and it isn't as simple as a day job professional buying team kit and a $10k bike. 

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Joe Bernard]

I think what you described in your full-sus experience breaks down to "it didn't beat the crap outta me and that was more fun." The conventional wisdom from the "it's too much technology" crowd is it allows one to go too fast on trails, but I contend there's a strong argument for not going too fast but feeling safer and more comfortable. I used to to a lot of singletrack on rigid Bridgestones and getting knocked off the bike from a rock or root was not big fun for me. If I did it now I'd take the technology with me, then ride my Rivendell on pavement and smooth trails. 

Joe Bernard

[Doug H.]

It didn't take long for the attack on the OP and the defense of Grant. I doubt Grant feels the need to be defended though. 

Doug

[Richard Rose]

I concur! 

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 11, 2022, at 5:12 PM, Doug H. <dhansf...@gmail.com> wrote:

It didn't take long for the attack on the OP and the defense of Grant. I doubt Grant feels the need to be defended though. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/6a11c010-f7e3-426d-a310-04d90bdaf6e9n%40googlegroups.com.

[brendonoid]

Hans Rey, the legendary trials rider and lifetime GT salesman has a charity that donates bicycles to people in various poor areas. The sort of place where having a practical bicycle means you can hold down a stable job because you can commute 18kms now whereas you used to be unable to walk there.

His charity does not donate full squish e-bikes like he regularly rides on his youtube channel. He donates double top tube steel bikes with 1inch quill stems and bosco-esque bars. He gives people real bikes that do what they need a bike to do.

Losing sight of the difference between a fun toy and a useful bicycle is an easy thing to do. The Bicycle Industry has spent the last 30 years deliberately obfuscating the difference, so it is very understandable.

Have fun on your bike and ride how you want! Let others do the same.

Peace,

Brendon

[Peter Adler]

More specifically, "bloody bike anorak"; BBA for short.

Peter "the backdoor invasion of CR nomenclature" Adler

Berkeley, CA/USA

[Philip Barrett]

This is a great conversation and reminds me of a maxim in my industry; "some people buy equipment so they can make music, others make music so they can buy equipment." Neither are wrong, both achieve satisfaction from their chosen path but the approaches are polar opposites.

What does worry me is that bicycling is going the way of the HiFi industry where "anoraks" who insist that you can't have good sound without $500 cables have destroyed the middle ground for equipment and denied many the experience of quality home listening. You now have the high-end, high-$$ market & box systems from Costco with almost nothing between them.

If the bicycle industry continues to "innovate" to the point where the technology and price point drives away the more casual rider they will find themselves in the same position; selling expensive bikes to a stagnant market with the rest of the riding population buying from the big box stores.

[larson....@gmail.com]

I just finished building an Appaloosa-my first Riv and my first build. I took my time and really enjoyed the project. I have only ridden once, below zero windchills and icey roads now, but found it very rewarding to ride a bike I put together and understand how it works. I find the beauty in the aesthetic and the experience. All bikes are cool, but as I get older I am drawn to function and simplicity. Instead of carrying a large camera system, I now carry a Fuji and a couple of lenses. Instead of owning six fly rods and carrying 50+ different fly patterns, I have two trout rods and carry a handful of proven flies, some tippet and a leader or two. For me, simplifying my equipment deepens my experience in all areas. I do like the ideals and aesthetics of the Rough Stuff Fellowship, but I prefer to actually ride my bike and not break things or come home bleeding! I hope to contribute something to this forum now that I am actually a Riv owner; I have learned a lot through this forum.

[RichS]

And I always thought an "anorak" was a piece of clothing. The things one can learn here:-)))

Best,

Rich in ATL

[Patrick Moore]

It is; it's the British term for a windbreaker, especially the old fashioned type with only a half-zipper. The name is borrowed from that of an Inuit garment of similar design, I believe.

I think the extension of the meaning came about because fanatical steam train or steam waggon viewers (steam trucks were used in Britain until the 1960s or even 1970s and there are entertaining Youtube videos of steam waggon fairs and steam traction engines and lorries holding up traffic on narrow English roads) often wore these anoraks in England's wet, cold climate. 

[David Person]

Jay, I have a Sam Hillborne that I built up in 2015 (Tektro 559s with Yokozuna Salmon pads, Nitto Choco bars, RH double crankset, Shimano XT hub laced to Velocity Quill rims, RH Snowqualmie Pass tires).  And this past August I built up a new Surly Disc Trucker with many of the same components but with Yokozuna Ultimo hybrid disc calipers and threadless Thompson stem instead of the Nitto FacePlater quill stem on the Sam.  I have to say, I love the disc brakes on the Surly.  Much less brake lever force required to stop the bike (same Tektro FL 540 brake levers).  And the difference in the wet is even more pronounced.  Both bikes have a remarkably similar ride, if I were blindfolded I would have a hard time determining which bike I was riding until it came time to use the brakes.  The Surly would reveal itself immediately. 

[Philip Barrett]

On Saturday, February 12, 2022 at 12:12:40 PM UTC-6 Patrick Moore wrote:

It is; it's the British term for a windbreaker, especially the old fashioned type with only a half-zipper. The name is borrowed from that of an Inuit garment of similar design, I believe.

I think the extension of the meaning came about because fanatical steam train or steam waggon viewers (steam trucks were used in Britain until the 1960s or even 1970s and there are entertaining Youtube videos of steam waggon fairs and steam traction engines and lorries holding up traffic on narrow English roads) often wore these anoraks in England's wet, cold climate. 

Partially correct, it's from the groups of men (trainspotters) who would collect locomotive numbers and stand clustered at the ends of station platforms in the wind & rain.  The anorak is also referred to as a kagoule.

[Scott Calhoun]

This is a good discussion. Riding mostly steel bikes with steel forks, I often count myself among the anoraks here, but like the OP, I've tried some new bike technology that enhances my cycling experiences. Once you know, you know. Tubeless tires, brifters, and even carbon rims can be great for certain riders, rides, and conditions. 

Even bikes that many here would consider completely impractical, can be really fun to ride and offer an interesting counter-argument to the prevailing Rivendell wisdom. During the pandemic I started doing a lot of long solo rides. I did them on a variety of bikes and in a variety of clothing, including a bike with some aero equipment like low spoke count deep carbon wheels combined with a tight fitting jersey. I went on longer rides in less time and returned home feeling fresher. It was also fun. It got me thinking more about the latest generation of carbon fiber racing bicycles designed for aerodynamics and comfort. Someday I'd like to try a bike like the Look 795 Blade or Time Scylon (made with 3km! of carbon threads) just because I think they are beautifully engineered and kind of bonkers. Interestingly, even in 2022, both of those are available in rim brake models with mechanical shifting so in an odd way they also appeal to my inner retro-grouch.

[Joe Bernard]

I understand the Riv philosophy and generally agree with it, and it's what they do and sell. Rivendell has no reason to like everything and build everything so they don't, there's no business case for it. On the consumer end it's a free for all (if you have the money), we can buy and enjoy whatever-the-blazes we want. Everybody wins. 

[Scott Calhoun]

It is easy to do--there are so many different bike tribes and ways to signify which tribe you belong to. Maybe being a little transgressive and trying new things with different tribes is healthy for cycling people. Whatever kind of bike and cycling connects you to other people, nature, and places you like to go, do that. Dirt road shortcut, multi-use path, fast group ride, grocery run, kid train, charity century: yes.  

[John Hawrylak]

Jay

I just think the Rivendells were not meant for this type of riding.  I do not see a need to reconcile their outlook to the bikes you rented.

Glad you had a great time, you poised a good question, but I think this is the simple answer.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ   PS, I don't care for this type of riding or single type trails, my reflexes are not good enough and there is little margin of error

[Fullylugged]

I rode my '95 Rivendell Road today on the club group ride.  38mm Pari-motos, leather saddle, high handlebars. Platform pedals.  I kept up with the group easily, enjoyed a great morning on a superior and comfortable road bike. Nothing hurt after the ride. Some of my carbon company is starting to think that maybe unpadded pants and no numbness on hands might have value. Some others will stay true to current bike chic. I personally like the Rivs between '94 - '10 better than the rivs since 2010. For some, the clem or platy is just perfect and that's great. The orig RBW ideas about slack ST angle, low BB, and longer stays work really well for me. The recent slack HT and uber long (need 2 chains long) stays are overkill for me. I have 2 Rivs and I'll love them and ride them till I can't ride anymore, but Riv never was orthodox and never meant to be. It's always been the best that GP felt he could do at the time, given the materials and options (like brake reach) available. YMMV.

Tailwinds

Bruce in AL

[Scott Calhoun]

I've been *that* guy more times than I'd care to count. If you are keeping up with the group, someone always manages to say something like, "just think how fast you'd be on XXXX kind of bike." Still, sometimes is nice just to fit in and not have to explain yourself or answer the inevitable "hey is that a really old bike?" question. 

[John Hawrylak]

Bruce

I agree with your observations about pre-2010.   Personally, I do not care for the 6deg upsloped TT.   I think he did it to minimize the number of different sizes for each model (inventory control) vs some inherent superior design attribute.  The AHH went from what 8 or 9 frame sizes when it was MUSA to what 5 now (MIT)!!  I'm sure the Taiwaneses would be happy to copy the MUSA frame sizes & 2deg TT, just add the loooong stays

On the slack HT angles, I think GP had to do this to minimize or prevent TCO and to bring the bars further back to maintain overall reach to the bars.  A slack STA requires longer TTL.  I think all smaller Rivs pre 2010 had TCO

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[John Rinker]

'Subvert the dominant paradigm'... in whoever's paradigm you happen to be trapped.

[Craig Montgomery]

'Subvert the dominant paradigm'... in whoever's paradigm you happen to be trapped.

                                                                                                      John Rinker

Whatever floats your boat. I doubt if there's a "I'm a cool dude get outta my way scowl" on any of these people.  The guy on the cliff might just have a "Holey Moley what'd I get myself into" grimace though. Just got the Further Adventures in Rough Stuffing from Velo Orange. Wonderful photos. The minor point being that if a) you're outdoors and b) with good people, then any bike'll do. Just plain fun. 

Craig in Tucson

[Craig Montgomery]

Oh yea..the guy on the cliff. He wouldn't download. Maybe this one will. 

Craig in Tucson

[larson....@gmail.com]

Love this stuff and think it is a good reminder to us that we don’t need to obsess over gear (although it is OK to do that as well!). I bought the second Rough Stuff Fellowship book and am enjoying it very much. Reminds me of riding around the farm as a kid - old single speed bike that I would ride over the hill and through the woods on cow paths and field roads. Sometimes I rode, sometimes I pushed or carried, but it was always an adventure.