Will I notice going from 36 to 32 spokes?

[Davey Two Shoes]

I'm going to ride my Sam Hillborne in the Vermont Overland this year and as such I feel compelled to convert from tubes to tubeless. My current wheelset is the 36 spoke deore/dyad setup so many of us know and love(?). I'm considering the following options; either replace the rim with a Velocity Quill and reuse my 36 spoke hubs or having a 32/32 or maybe 28/32 spoke wheelset built up with Velocity Quills. I plan to run 48mm Rene Herse tires. I'd like the bike to feel quicker and more inspiring with this wheelset, I've often thought that the "ploddy" feeling my Sam has is down to the uninspiring wheelset.

[Will Boericke]

I'd do a serious calculation of saved grams there.  It looks like you save roughly 75g for the rim swap, and let's say 7g per spoke.  In my book, very not worth it.  Put some lighter tires on there and roll (maybe 42s?).

Tubeless-wise, there are pros and cons.  In my experience, mtb usage is 100% tubeless worth it.  Skinny tires, 100% not worth it.  "Gravel" size is in the 50% range.  All of my gravel wheels are tubeless now, but those setups are also where I've had to do a lot of plugging and patching in the field.  This is a lot harder than replacing a tube.

As far as durability, I don't think anyone believes 36 spokes are necessary for wheel strength in the era of stiff rims.  MTB wheels are currently 28h, for the most part.

[Davey Two Shoes]

Thanks for the reply! The main reason for the switch is tubeless. The type of "gravel" I ride often has more in common with single track and so running a tire pressures high enough to prevent pinch flats has really been a bummer. I already run pretty light tires, Ultra Dynamico Cavas, but I want more volume still.

[Brent Eastman]

I have a 36H deore/atlas wheelset, and a 32h deore/dyad wheelset. I've used them interchangeably on both my rivs. They feel identical on all terrain. The only difference I've ever noticed is that i sent the 32h rear wheel out of true by beating on it. 

+1 on the tire switch recommendation. try that first! tubeless will also feel different/better/faster.

not sure how much you, or the bike, or your overland gear, weigh.

i believe keeping wheels complete is almost always more cost effective unless you get a crazy deal on wheel components. get a new complete wheelset, keep the old as a spare, or sell it to minimize your net spend.

[Patrick Moore]

It may be the very stout frame. I used to scoff at “planing” but then got a geometrical clone of a 2003 custom Riv Road built with narrower gauge, thinner wall tubing (I got the replacement frame because I wanted certain new features, not because of the tubing, but I asked for normal gauge, thinner wall 531 at the same time), and I immediately noticed that it felt “easier to pedal.” Now, no science at all, at all, at all went into my judgment, but I don’t feel that the newer frame is “fighting me” the way I felt over the years that the 2003 frame was slightly “resisting my pedaling.

It has been 15 years since I owned my first-gen Sam, and if that model had had clearances for true 50s and fenders I would have kept it for dirt road riding, but it did not feel “spritely” on pavement, to say the least.

OTOH, “they” have long said said that the biggest change you can make to the feel of your bike is to change the tires ….

On Wed, Mar 11, 2026 at 9:44 AM Davey Two Shoes <dgold...@gmail.com> wrote:

… I’d like the bike to feel quicker and more inspiring with this wheelset, I've often thought that the "ploddy" feeling my Sam has is down to the uninspiring wheelset.

[Miles Payton]

Tubeless is great with large volume tires on gravel IMO. That's a good upgrade. Spoke count, I don't think you'll notice that weight savings. You might notice a loss of durability depending on your weight and riding style. And the "ride feel" effect is cumulative. My Toyo Atlantis is still a tank even with a very light Hunt wheelset. That bike just hates going fast. The "ploddy" feel you describe may be due to the Hillborne frame which isn't too different than the Atlantis 2. I have a Fargo with a Velocity Blunt/XT wheelset and bigger tires, total weight is about the same, but due to more aggressive geometry it is not ploddy at all.

I have 32h Quills and can attest that they are great rims. Pretty much the best option for rim brake tubeless high-volume tires. I'm 200# and have thoroughly abused mine.

[Bill Lindsay]

Vermont Overland is marketed as a 55 mile gravel race.  Are you going to ride it as a race?  Or are you going to ride it as a ride?  

Let's see what the whole build looks like, and we can try to describe what you can do to curate your Hillborne for the event.  In its bones, the Hillborne is a country bike, not a race bike.  A thoughtful build can make a Hillborne lean somewhat more racey, if that's what you're after.  But it's still a country bike in its bones.  Country bikes can definitely feel ploddy in to those who want their bike to feel racey.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Brian Turner]

I can't recall the member's name, but there's a guy in this group who did PBP on his Sam a year or so ago. Perhaps if he's reading this he can chime in one how he equipped his Sam for that?

Brian

Lexington KY

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[Armand Kizirian]

Not worth it. Get the right tires (your choice of RH is good), and more importantly, find your ideal pressure for them, with an accurate means of measuring it. A difference of 5-10 psi will make more of a difference than your suggested changes in a wheelset. If you aren't currently using RH tires try them out first, they may make the difference you're looking for. 

That being said, if you want to sell your current wheelset and replace it, that might make more sense. Unless you weigh over 200lbs or carry touring loads, a velocity quill rim is plenty durable. I use them with 36 spokes in the back and 32h in the front, and carry some absurd grocery loads, and have yet to true my wheels 2 years in (hand built by peter white). I imagine I could go 32 in the rear and 28 front without issue. Your deore hubs are also fairly hefty, something to consider. 

If you're willing to burn the $$$, and if your expectations are set appropriately low, go for it. 

[Ted Durant]

On Wednesday, March 11, 2026 at 10:44:38 AM UTC-5 Davey Two Shoes wrote:

I'm going to ride my Sam Hillborne in the Vermont Overland this year and as such I feel compelled to convert from tubes to tubeless. My current wheelset is the 36 spoke deore/dyad setup so many of us know and love(?). I'm considering the following options; either replace the rim with a Velocity Quill and reuse my 36 spoke hubs or having a 32/32 or maybe 28/32 spoke wheelset built up with Velocity Quills. I plan to run 48mm Rene Herse tires. I'd like the bike to feel quicker and more inspiring with this wheelset, I've often thought that the "ploddy" feeling my Sam has is down to the uninspiring wheelset.

I was very surprised at how nimble my Sam Hillborne felt when I first rode it. It's nothing like my Chapman (built with old skinny 753 tubes), but it's not anywhere near as dead as some other bikes I've had. I'm light (used to be 125lb, but have gone up to 135lb in the last year), ride 48mm tires on 32 spoke wheels on all 3 of my Sams. I have used 3 different tire sets on them - Rene Herse Switchback Hill, Panaracer Gravel King Slick, and Ultra Dynamico Cava JFF. The tires make a noticeable difference, with the Cavas being noticeably more "ploddy" than the others. I would note that Rene Herse Juniper Ridge (48mm knobby) do not fit in my Hillbornes.

In my experience, I would expect you to notice more difference between the Dyad and Quill rims than from losing 4 spokes. The only way I'd expect to notice the effect of fewer spokes would be the wrong direction - an out of true or worse wheel.

Ted Durant

Milwaukee, WI USA

[Jonathan Carmack]

I do some pretty gnarly rides on various wheelsets with either butyl or tpu tubes.  Just carry two spare tubes and a frame pump and call it a day.

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[Davey Two Shoes]

OP Here,

First of all, Thank you all for chiming in. Lots of great advice! Which I appreciate. It seems like the decision to upgrade my tires is a definite at this point. I’d like to go with Oracle Ridge 48mm tires. Does anyone know if I’ll have clearance issues with my 2021 Sam (the first year of the lime olive) running Paul Mini Motos? If so I guess I'll find some cantis.

I don’t plan on  competing in the race, I’ll definitely be in the “participant” category, maybe even the “party” category. That being said, I want to make my bike as enjoyable as possible for this “race”. Hang with a group, do my part pulling and catching a draft when I’m tired.

I considered using my Tanglefoot Hardtack but that will be signing up for a solo ride with how I’ve got that setup. I could use my Some Grand Randonneur but the low trail geo might not be so fun on the chonk. Besides, that bike really has more in common with a fast road bike than a gravel bike.

 Ultimately my desire to switch up the wheels has more to do with lower tire pressures than lightening my bike. I’ve considered just running my dyads with tubes and sending it anyway, but I’ve ridden a lot of Vermont class 4 on my Hardtack and everything the Vermont Overland people say about them is true. I could certainly run tubes but here we are anyway.

On to how my bike is currently set up:

It’s a fairly standard build for a Sam.

Cockpit: Nitto Noodles 42, 100mm Nitto stem, Shimano aero levers, dia compe bar end shifters

Wheels: Deore to dyads wrapped in UD Cava JFF

Drivetrain: Sugino triple to a 9spd rear. I think the derailers are microshift. 

Sitting on a brooks and I'll be using SPD pedals that day. I just like them anytime I've got drop bars, feels right to me.

I was thinking of swapping to a zero setback post to account for the slack seat tube.  Get me in a slightly more aggressive position over the bottom bracket. I have short legs, so as it is my seat if fairly forward on the setback post that currently resides on the bike.

I don’t want to turn the Sam into something its not, nor am I under the impression that a seat post and wheels will do that. But I think there are things I can change about my build to have some more fun at the event.

 

Thanks again!