Rene Herse Fender Install for QB

[Deacon Patrick]

These are on the list to do in the near future. However, if I have to get into metal drilling or cutting, I'm going to need to make arrangements for someone to help/do the install.

What non-standard issues will I run into installing these:

https://www.renehersecycles.com/shop/components/fenders/rene-herse-smooth-fenders-700c-for-48-52-mm-tires-h80-700c/
on a 66cm silver (final run) QB?

With abandon,

Patrick

www.MindYourHeadCoop.org

www.DeaconPatrick.org

www.CatholicHalos.org

www.ShepherdsandHalos.org

[J L]

Patrick,

The fenders need to be drilled before mounting.

Jason

On Jun 9, 2020, at 3:26 PM, 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

These are on the list to do in the near future. However, if I have to get into metal drilling or cutting, I'm going to need to make arrangements for someone to help/do the install.

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[Joe Bernard]

You should have a kickstand plate to screw into at front/bottom so that's the first drilled hole. Then mount it at the brake bridge, does this model have a fender braze-on there? If so that's your next drilling spot, or slide a clip on. The only thing to worry about after that is to keep the fender stays long enough that the fender will kinda stick out in the back, to clear sliding the wheel out.

[Deacon Patrick]

Thank you, Jason and Joe. So, above my pay grade. I'll make other arrangements.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Joe Bernard]

Hehe, I hear ya Patrick. I technically know HOW to do it, but getting me to the goal is a whole 'nother kettle of monkeys or whatever the phrase is. My Frank Jones has new fenders still safely in the packaging 😬

[Clayton Scott]

Not sure if it matters, but you would not need a power drill. The aluminum fenders are fairly soft. A hammer and punch or even sharp nail and a hand reamer will be sufficient for the holes. 

Here the a similar reamer to the one I use: https://www.harborfreight.com/t-handle-reamer-66936.html?cid=paid_google|||66936&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=&utm_content=&gclid=CjwKCAjw5vz2BRAtEiwAbcVIL1GFqSHOzVIUOm0tyo2HBV8Hm29UvrBsIqHaIleP61p1Cb8943NAZxoCPhUQAvD_BwE

The installation process may look a bit daunting but it is a fairly straight forward operation. There is a BQ that has a tutorial in it. Would be happy to scan and send them to you.

Clayton Scott.

[Eric Norris]

I have fenders on my QB. For me, a clean fender line in the back was more important that the ease of installing the rear wheel. I need to let the air out to get the wheel out (not a problem if it’s flat already) and in. Once it’s in, I air it up.

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com

Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy

YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 

On Jun 9, 2020, at 4:15 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

You should have a kickstand plate to screw into at front/bottom so that's the first drilled hole. Then mount it at the brake bridge, does this model have a fender braze-on there? If so that's your next drilling spot, or slide a clip on. The only thing to worry about after that is to keep the fender stays long enough that the fender will kinda stick out in the back, to clear sliding the wheel out.

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[Steve Palincsar]

Don't forget the rat tail file.

The drilling is easy.  The measuring to get the holes in the right places, now that takes patience and repetition.  You can't measure it all at once.  You have to mount one point, measure the next, remove, drill, install, mark the next point, remove, drill, reinstall.  That's because the mounting changes the shape.

Also, you don't want to use the stays to pull the fender into the proper shape, like you would do with a plastic fender.  You've got to alter tthe profile of the fender by either spreading out the edges or squeezing them together. a little bit at a time all over the curve of the fender.

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[JohnS]

Installing fenders is a pain in the butt. My least favorite bike wrenching. I would not recommend it it's not within your comfort zone. Alignment, rubbing, the list goes on....

JohnS

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[somervillebikes]

Aside from any QB-specific issues, I wrote a generic 4-part series for installing metal fenders:

https://somervillebikes.wordpress.com/2020/03/01/how-to-install-metal-fenders-part-i-achieving-a-proper-arc-radius/

Anton

velolumino.com

[Michael / SF]

If you decide to DIY, this video really helped me out with my SimWorks x Honjo install: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WSq1DTvHOI

Highly recommend this fella's other videos if you want to watch beautiful rando bikes cruising around the San Francisco Bay Area.

Michael

SF / CA

On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 3:26:56 PM UTC-7, Deacon Patrick wrote:

[Deacon Patrick]

Fenders arrived today and a bike shop (one of two I'd be willing to trust to this, and that's with a lot of hope and prayer involved), said they could squeeze in the fender instal over the next few days, otherwise it'd be a month or more. They understood "fenderline" and "pinch or widen to adjust it" and "position and drill one hole at a time" ... so here's to it going well! Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Mat Grewe]

If you still have a rear rack on that bike, consider securing the fender to the rack instead of using stays.  When riding off trail, rack legs won't collapse if a stick gets caught in the spokes.  Here is a pretty awful picture, but you get the gist (I can borrow a real camera if a better picture would help).

Mat

Driftless Wisconsin

[Mat Grewe]

For future reference, if you do decide to drill & install your own fenders.  Aluminum drilling is super easy.  I just use regular drill bits, no need for lubrication, and put a piece of wood underneath to help minimize burrs on the back side.  A file can help to clean it up, but isn't strictly necessary—if you don't have one—when using wood on the back side when drilling.  I like to drill from the inside of the fender out, so any burrs that might happen are biting into the leather washer.

The most time consuming part is measuring thrice and drilling once.  And to reiterate Steve's point above, only drill one hole at a time, mount, then measure the next hole.

Unlike JohnS, I quite enjoy mounting fenders.  Very time consuming, even Weigle stated that in his BQ article.  But if you go into it planning for 15 hours of total work, which includes set up and clean up time (might not need it, but first time can take a while), you will be less likely to get frustrated during the process.  If I recall, you do some woodworking, and the real "skill" carries over from that, which is having experience working with your hands in a calm, slow, and deliberate manner.

A general rule of thumb when doing first time projects is to estimate how long you think that project will take, then multiply it by at least four (I often make facetious comments, but this one is no joke or exaggeration!).  Slowing down, not rushing, I am better able to find joy in tasks that otherwise aggravate me immensely...

Mat

Driftless Wisconsin

[Deacon Patrick]

Mat: "A general rule of thumb when doing first time projects is to estimate how long you think that project will take, then multiply it by at least four (I often make facetious comments, but this one is no joke or exaggeration!).  Slowing down, not rushing, I am better able to find joy in tasks that otherwise aggravate me immensely..."

Yes, Mat! I poorly strive to enter this disciplined contemplative action by remembering to work in Saint Joseph's workshop. He is stunningly good at transforming odd, raw material in to stunning works. I'm certainly raw material! Grin. I have learned much from the wisdom of learning how to listen to the inanimate, which are very good at letting me what they need though I am as yet a poor listener.

With abandon,

Patrick 

[Deacon Patrick]

Hmmmm. My wife just picked up my now fendered Quickbeam. It looks great, except they installed the front fender so it sticks out in the front about 5" too far forward. I have the additional stay to add myself. Will this be adiquate? Or do I need to rotate the fender back, to increase coverage lower in the back of the front wheel and minimize the jounce on the front?

With abandon,

Patrick

[J L]

Patrick,

First off, great to hear that they did a good job. I’m sure others will have suggestions here. Without seeing the bike it is hard to say. My intuition tells me it is in the right place to - 

A: ward off spray coming off the top of the wheel. There can still be significant material leaving the wheel between 12 and 2 oclock, as well as traveling up the inside of the fender. Add in forward momentum and both can and up hitting the rider. 

and 

B: prevent the fender from catching on curbs, rocks, roots, etc when the front wheel drops down past them. 

Your fender may, or may not need the additional stay in the front, or attachment to a rack if you use one. 

You might consider adding a long flexible mudflap onto the bottom of the fender if you desire more coverage there. A flexible flap would not undo the work of A or B.

Best of luck!

Jason

On Jul 8, 2020, at 12:31 PM, 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



Hmmmm. My wife just picked up my now fendered Quickbeam. It looks great, except they installed the front fender so it sticks out in the front about 5" too far forward. I have the additional stay to add myself. Will this be adiquate? Or do I need to rotate the fender back, to increase coverage lower in the back of the front wheel and minimize the jounce on the front?

With abandon,

Patrick

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[Deacon Patrick]

Ahhh! The clock is a better way to describe it. You are correct, Jason, the fender goes forward to 1:30, so a bit back from the 2:00 window you describe. It does need the stay on there, especially given the terrain I ride. Yes, I have a flap for the rear I'll be adding (they put the flap on the rear rather than the front as requested.) Thank you, Jason!

With abandon,

Patrick

On Wednesday, July 8, 2020 at 1:45:34 PM UTC-6, J L wrote:

Patrick,

First off, great to hear that they did a good job. I’m sure others will have suggestions here. Without seeing the bike it is hard to say. My intuition tells me it is in the right place to - 

A: ward off spray coming off the top of the wheel. There can still be significant material leaving the wheel between 12 and 2 oclock, as well as traveling up the inside of the fender. Add in forward momentum and both can and up hitting the rider. 

and 

B: prevent the fender from catching on curbs, rocks, roots, etc when the front wheel drops down past them. 

Your fender may, or may not need the additional stay in the front, or attachment to a rack if you use one. 

You might consider adding a long flexible mudflap onto the bottom of the fender if you desire more coverage there. A flexible flap would not undo the work of A or B.

Best of luck!

Jason

On Jul 8, 2020, at 12:31 PM, 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



Hmmmm. My wife just picked up my now fendered Quickbeam. It looks great, except they installed the front fender so it sticks out in the front about 5" too far forward. I have the additional stay to add myself. Will this be adiquate? Or do I need to rotate the fender back, to increase coverage lower in the back of the front wheel and minimize the jounce on the front?

With abandon,

Patrick

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[Steve Palincsar]

Patrick, observe the tip of the front fender as you're riding.  If it wobbles around you'll need that extra stay.  If it's stable you may not.   I definitely needed it here:

If you do have to add a 2nd stay and have but one eyelet, as I do here, be aware that this will be a complex jigsaw puzzle to fit together, with limited clearance all around - but, amazingly, it does fit.

On 7/8/20 4:17 PM, 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote:

Ahhh! The clock is a better way to describe it. You are correct, Jason, the fender goes forward to 1:30, so a bit back from the 2:00 window you describe. It does need the stay on there, especially given the terrain I ride. Yes, I have a flap for the rear I'll be adding (they put the flap on the rear rather than the front as requested.) Thank you, Jason!

If you never ride with anybody you don't need a flap in back.  That's to protect your friends who are drafting off you.

With abandon,

Patrick

On Wednesday, July 8, 2020 at 1:45:34 PM UTC-6, J L wrote:

Patrick,

First off, great to hear that they did a good job. I’m sure others will have suggestions here. Without seeing the bike it is hard to say. My intuition tells me it is in the right place to - 

A: ward off spray coming off the top of the wheel. There can still be significant material leaving the wheel between 12 and 2 oclock, as well as traveling up the inside of the fender. Add in forward momentum and both can and up hitting the rider. 

and 

B: prevent the fender from catching on curbs, rocks, roots, etc when the front wheel drops down past them. 

Your fender may, or may not need the additional stay in the front, or attachment to a rack if you use one. 

You might consider adding a long flexible mudflap onto the bottom of the fender if you desire more coverage there. A flexible flap would not undo the work of A or B.

Best of luck!

Jason

On Jul 8, 2020, at 12:31 PM, 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



Hmmmm. My wife just picked up my now fendered Quickbeam. It looks great, except they installed the front fender so it sticks out in the front about 5" too far forward. I have the additional stay to add myself. Will this be adiquate? Or do I need to rotate the fender back, to increase coverage lower in the back of the front wheel and minimize the jounce on the front?

With abandon,

Patrick

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[Steve Palincsar]

On 7/8/20 3:31 PM, 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote:
> Hmmmm. My wife just picked up my now fendered Quickbeam. It looks
> great, except they installed the front fender so it sticks out in the
> front about 5" too far forward.

How do you know it's too far forward?  Where does the 5" measurement
come from?

If you're comparing with a plastic SKS fender, the front may be much
longer than you're used to because those plastic fenders are generally
way too short both in front and in back.

> I have the additional stay to add myself. Will this be adiquate? Or do
> I need to rotate the fender back, to increase coverage lower in the
> back of the front wheel and minimize the jounce on the front?

This depends entirely on the length of the fender -- which, by the way,
there is no standard for.  I've been told every Honjo fender order is in
effect a custom order, where the buyer specifies how long they want the
fenders.  Some are much longer than others.  It's perfectly possible to
have a set that's so long the back would be dangerously low (as in,
you'd keep hitting things with it) unless the front is longer in front
than an eye educated by looking at plastic fenders would consider "proper."

Provided it's supported, and providing the back is long enough for
coverage, having a longer front of the fender can be a good thing.

[Paul Brodek]

100% inspired by Steve, if I don't have a front rack for direct fender mounting, I use a front strut. Too much movement and rattling without for me.

Paul Brodek
Hillsdale, NJ USA

[Deacon Patrick]

Here's how it looks:

Here's how it rides:

[Steve Palincsar]

I like what you've done with the front extra support strut.  I kind of wonder about the rear fender line -- that's a lot of space behind the wheel -- but you may need that to be able to remove the wheel, I don't know.  But those fenders sure do look nice on that silver QB.  Looking at the photo under magnification I can see you could cut the struts a lot shorter: there's a lot of extra material ahead of the R clips; they don't need to extend beyond the ends of the clips.

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[Deacon Patrick]

Thanks, Steve. I pilfered the front strut from something I saw on Jan's site. Used a theology book (they are all beefy) to bend it uniformly. Grin. I think Ye Ol' Shoppe left the rear fender out as far as the struts allow, also, it's in low gear, so wheel forward, which exaggerates the look vs. high gear. This gives good clearence for tire in out. I may play with bringing it in a bit. Good eye on the strut length of the front fender stays. I may cut them or leave them, but want to be able to adjust them as needed for a while.

With abandon,

Patrick  

On Saturday, July 11, 2020 at 3:57:42 PM UTC-6, Steve Palincsar wrote:

I like what you've done with the front extra support strut.  I kind of wonder about the rear fender line -- that's a lot of space behind the wheel -- but you may need that to be able to remove the wheel, I don't know.  But those fenders sure do look nice on that silver QB.  Looking at the photo under magnification I can see you could cut the struts a lot shorter: there's a lot of extra material ahead of the R clips; they don't need to extend beyond the ends of the clips.

On 7/11/20 5:09 PM, 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote:

Here's how it looks:

Here's how it rides:

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[Steve Palincsar]

Just be careful of one thing.  DO NOT attempt to adjust fender line by pulling on the fender struts.

Yes, that's how you do it with plastic fenders.  Doing it with aluminum fenders is the kiss of death. 

You adjust the fender line (i.e., the arc of the fender and how its curve matches up with the curve of the wheel) by spreading out or squeezing together the edges of the fender.  Pulling the edges out decreases the radius of the curve of the fender, while squeezing the edges together increases the radius.

I'm sure I'm belaboring what you've been told before, but there's a reason.   The right way with the plastic fenders most of us are most used to is the deadly wrong way with aluminum fenders.

As for "pilfering" ideas -- that's why they're put out there, so we can learn from them.   There's no :theft" here; not even "folk process."

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[Deacon Patrick]

Understood, Steve. Thank you for the reminder. I'd presumed I might need to also adjust the stays. When you say "deadly wrong way," are you talking fender failure, or something else?

With abandon,

Patrick

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[Steve Palincsar]

Fender failure from stress.

On 7/11/20 9:33 PM, 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote:

Understood, Steve. Thank you for the reminder. I'd presumed I might need to also adjust the stays. When you say "deadly wrong way," are you talking fender failure, or something else?

With abandon,

Patrick

On Saturday, July 11, 2020 at 4:46:28 PM UTC-6, Steve Palincsar wrote:

Just be careful of one thing.  DO NOT attempt to adjust fender line by pulling on the fender struts.

Yes, that's how you do it with plastic fenders.  Doing it with aluminum fenders is the kiss of death. 

You adjust the fender line (i.e., the arc of the fender and how its curve matches up with the curve of the wheel) by spreading out or squeezing together the edges of the fender.  Pulling the edges out decreases the radius of the curve of the fender, while squeezing the edges together increases the radius.

I'm sure I'm belaboring what you've been told before, but there's a reason.   The right way with the plastic fenders most of us are most used to is the deadly wrong way with aluminum fenders.

As for "pilfering" ideas -- that's why they're put out there, so we can learn from them.   There's no :theft" here; not even "folk process."

[Deacon Patrick]

Thank you, Steve.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Deacon Patrick]

I'm puzzling out how to eliminate rattle in the front fender. All fittings are tight. It occurs on jouncy bits, as well as when I take a hand off (to wave, usually). It seems to be lateral motion causing the rear portion of the fender to waggle, briefly rub the tire, and vibrate. Ideas?

The best I've come up with is to try bowing the rear stays, taking up some of the extra slack from the mount point if needed.

With abandon,

Patrick

(Stumping picture provided for your amusement)

[somervillebikes]

Deacon,

When you say 'try bowing out', I am not sure what you mean. Do you mean bending the stay so that it is parallel to the face of the dropout? This is essential for proper stay attachment, it reduces all sorts of stress along the stay and at the fender.

I did a four-part blog series on metal fender installation. It's a long read, but if you wanted to skip most of it you could just take a look at part IV, installing the stays.

https://somervillebikes.wordpress.com/2020/03/01/how-to-install-metal-fenders-part-i-achieving-a-proper-arc-radius/

Anton

velolumino.com

[Deacon Patrick]

"Parallel to the face of the dropout" -- Yes! A much clearly way to put it. Thank you, Anton!

With abandon,

Patrick

[Deacon Patrick]

Hmmmm. I need to slide the "sliding bracket" (like this one, but a Wald the shop used: https://www.renehersecycles.com/shop/components/fenders/honjo-sliding-bracket/) to increase clearance at the seat stay bridge. Anything I need to know? I plan on using a flat head screwdriver to loosen the clamps, adjust the fender, then re-clamp with pliers.

With abandon,

Patrick 

[Deacon Patrick]

After fiddling for quite a while I've learned the following from this experiment:

- metal fenders are a craftsman install. Poorly installed, they are nuts; well installed and...

- well installed metal fenders ride beautifully and quiet and solid on asphalt and dirt roads and smoother trails.

- metal fenders on a fixed gear bike with horizontal dropouts and changing gears and flex when climbing do not play well with all the climbing and jouncing.

I'm offering these Honjo fenders for up to 700 x 38 tires for free pick up if anyone is local (I'm near Colorado Springs, CO).

With abandon,

Patrick

[Dan Vee]

This is good Information. Thanks. I will be getting a custom 650b fixed gear soon and have been contemplating fenders... but between the rear wheel flipping for gear Changes and the general style of riding I do, I feel like the simplicity of the bike kinda gets lost somewhere. I think I’ll just get wet. :-). Thanks for posting your experience update.

[Clayton Scott]

Phil wood hubs are your friend if you use febders with horizontal dropouts. You can remove the bolt all the way and the wheel just drops out.

Clayton Scott
HBG, CA

[Benjamin L. Kelley]

Is this feature dependent on the model or do all Phil track hubs do this?

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[J L]

Ben,

As far as I know all phil wood bolt on hubs allow this. Any hub brand where the bolt provides the “shelf” that the dropout rests on will work the same. With the bolts removed all the way the hub is only as wide and the hub flange and it can drop out. 

Not CS but also a fan of this phil wood feature because I like fenders

On Aug 11, 2020, at 8:49 AM, Benjamin L. Kelley <benjami...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Benjamin L. Kelley]

Good to know.   I've only used Surly and crappier track hubs(from 2nd hand bikes so not my choice to start with), and all of them have the protruding shelf.

Maybe I'll add having the rear wheel of my QB rebuilt with a Phil Wood hub to the projects list.

It'll definitely make fender season easier.  

--ben

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[Patrick Moore]

FWIW, I've used fenders for fixed gear road bikes with long horizontals and up to 4-tooth cog differences without undue problem, and this on many different bikes and for years on end; and this also using quick releases and not the Phil bolts -- Surly also offers them -- that I agree are superior for this purpose. Install them with the axle more or less centered for your cruising gear (tho' if your flipside gear is more than 3 t bigger, you might want to have the axle slightly aft of center for the cruising gear) and make sure there is enough clearance all around for lateral movement; note that with horizontal dropouts as opposed to tack ends the wheel will move upward slightly as well when it moves backward. Flipping the wheel is not a big deal; less so that when carrying panniers on a rear rack.

One little adaptation to make things a bit -- not a lot -- easier is to cut the rear fender short to just aft of where it needs to be to keep wet-road spray off luggage and backside. But this is a small deal, not a big deal.

In the second photo, the rear fender is installed to allow considerable fore-and-aft movement for a tire fully 16 mm wider (and correspondingly taller) than that shown; ie, 45 instead of the shown 29 mm.

On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 8:48 AM Dan Vee <dane...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is good Information.  Thanks.  I will be getting a custom 650b fixed gear soon and have been contemplating fenders... but between the rear wheel flipping for gear Changes and the general style of riding I do, I feel like the simplicity of the bike kinda gets lost somewhere.  I think I’ll just get wet. :-).  Thanks for posting your experience update.

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Dan Vee]

Hey

Wow I’m using a Phil fixed/fixed track hub and didn’t even think of that until you said it! Totally forgot that that happens when you fully remove the bolts!

-Dan

New jers