forthcoming Hillibike "combo" predictions?

[Brian Turner]

Does anyone know anything specific about this new Hillibike iteration scheduled for October? Care to make any speculations or predictions? According to the latest Riv IG post, it only says "lugged, green and dark gold".

My main questions are:

Will it have a straight top tube like the Platy / Roscoe Bubbe, or the nice graceful swoopy one like Gus / Susie / Charlie?

1" threaded or 1-1/8" threadless (like Gus)?

Heavier tubing (like Gus), or lighter duty (like Susie)?

[Joe Bernard]

My guess is swooptube. My hope is it leans towards the Gus side of the equation with 1-1/8" threadless and heavier duty tubes, I feel that the Susie/Wolbis side was already adequately covered by like 7 different Rivbikes. I've just started trail riding again (after many years) and may pop for this new frame if it specs out to my preferences. 

Joe Bernard 

[Johnny Alien]

I agree with Joe. There isn't. a huge need for a Susie variant when the Clem L already kind of covers that. 

[Mackenzy Albright]

My no evidence fantasy guess is if it's a lugged hillibike variation it'll be something more akin the Hunqapillar but with some updated "riv" quality of life improvements. Maybe gus like room for rubber and longer wheelbase. As much as I like swoopy tubes - diamond frames and frame bag capacity is a nice feature for "adventure" bikes. 

[Garth]

Well a hardy har har ..... ! I don't see the Susie and Clem-L as being anywhere near interchangeable. The Clem-L still looks like a girls bike to me, the Susie/Gus with the swooptube looks cool. The Gus/Susie also a whole lot more steering trail than all the other models, and it's unmistakable the difference in handling. Maybe the Clem-L is "California cool", but in Heartland America away from the big cities, it just doesn't relate. To each their own ! Nor do I see the Susie as a bike covered by any other model. If any model is a doppelganger, it's the Appaloosa for an Atlantis, minus the weird second TT on the larger sizes and paint.

While the swooptube to me is a whole lot more elegant than a straight one, however the latest Hillibike appears it will be accepted just peachy.

At the end of the day though, everyone rides a bike, regardless of appearances .So "disagreements" are like ripples of the Ocean. A wave here, a wave there, waves every-where..... no two are ever alike. Yet each and every wave is but the Ocean Itself. Surfs up baby, lets go for a ride ! ! !

[Richard Rose]

My guess - and it’s only a guess. Same geo as the “older” bikes. Tubing that splits the difference between the Gus/Susie. Since they are only making one model my money would be on a threaded steer tube - just seems more “Riv”, though I like my threadless bike.

Sent from my iPhone

On May 15, 2023, at 12:35 PM, Brian Turner <brok...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Johnny Alien]

I get not liking the design as much but I thought we were WAY past the point of calling step through bikes "girl bikes". 

[lconley]

"Lugged" in my mind points to the Susie end of the Gus/Susie spectrum - no 1-1/8" Rivendell headtube lugs nor fork crowns that I have ever seen, just "napkin rings" for the headtube. The 1-1/8" Gus and the Hubbuhubbuh did not have lugged headtubes nor lugged forks. Lugs are prettier than TIG.

Laing

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 4:05:14 PM UTC-4 rmro...@gmail.com wrote:

[Joe Bernard]

Well a hardy har-har Clem Ls aren't "girls bikes" any more than Appaloosas are "boys bikes", the location of the toptube-to-seattube intersection is part of a frame. Frames don't have gender, they have different stepover heights. 

[Brian Forsee]

I agree Laing... I also remember seeing some Riv documentation somewhere mentioning a 'Lugged Susie' in the works. I'm interested to see the final details of this model. I'd personally like to fall further towards the Gus/dedicated mountain bike/off road touring end of the spectrum but the evidence is pointing the other direction. 

Brian

[Andrew Letton]

The one feature that I see the Gus/Susie just begging for is a set of triple bottle bosses on the rear side of the seat tube. With those long chainstays, it seems the perfect place for another big (1 - 2 liter) waterbottle for those of us in hot, dry locations.

cheers,

Andrew in Sydney

[Brian Turner]

Gus / Susie are fillet brazed frames. They’ve mentioned several times how that was a big factor in these frames being so pricey and difficult to produce, which is why they are moving to a different method of joining the tubes with this new iteration.

On May 15, 2023, at 6:31 PM, Zac Terrones <zac.te...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm thinking this as well. Didn't they say something about the swooptube being hard to do with lugs? They've only done tig frames with swooptubes right? Charlie, gus/susie etc. 

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 12:06:42 PM UTC-7 Mackenzy Albright wrote:

My no evidence fantasy guess is if it's a lugged hillibike variation it'll be something more akin the Hunqapillar but with some updated "riv" quality of life improvements. Maybe gus like room for rubber and longer wheelbase. As much as I like swoopy tubes - diamond frames and frame bag capacity is a nice feature for "adventure" bikes. 

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 10:50:12 AM UTC-7 Johnny Alien wrote:

I agree with Joe. There isn't. a huge need for a Susie variant when the Clem L already kind of covers that. 

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 1:20:35 PM UTC-4 Joe Bernard wrote:

My guess is swooptube. My hope is it leans towards the Gus side of the equation with 1-1/8" threadless and heavier duty tubes, I feel that the Susie/Wolbis side was already adequately covered by like 7 different Rivbikes. I've just started trail riding again (after many years) and may pop for this new frame if it specs out to my preferences. 

Joe Bernard 

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 9:35:53 AM UTC-7 brok...@gmail.com wrote:

Does anyone know anything specific about this new Hillibike iteration scheduled for October? Care to make any speculations or predictions? According to the latest Riv IG post, it only says "lugged, green and dark gold".

My main questions are:

Will it have a straight top tube like the Platy / Roscoe Bubbe, or the nice graceful swoopy one like Gus / Susie / Charlie?

1" threaded or 1-1/8" threadless (like Gus)?

Heavier tubing (like Gus), or lighter duty (like Susie)?

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[iamkeith]

Owning both a Susie and a Clem, I do agree with Garth that they are almost nothing alike.  On the other hand, I guess I don't see as much distinction between the Susie and the Gus as some do, and think of them as interchangeable.  Just slightly clunkier and stiffer tubing on one.  Assuming it will still have the not-quite-step-through swoopy top tube and that lugs could be shared with Charlie, it would be hard  to Imagine Rivendell having a new set made for 1 1/8" threadless headtubes and larger diameter downtubes, but who knows.  It sounds like the scare of losing a lug supplier has receded for now, too.

[Joe Bernard]

I don't think anyone said Susie and Clem are alike, we said Clem L covers the same territory. Gus is more specifically its own thing, there's no other Riv in the category. 

[ssimarsawhney]

My guess would have been 1in threaded with thicker tubing, which feels like a clem. 

Can someone speak a bit more about the differences between the two? 

[Richard Rose]

Garth - WTH? “Girls bike”?! “California cool”? (Sounds like a good thing to me.) “Does not relate” in the heartland? Does not get more heartland than Indianapolis, Lexington, Kalamazoo or Toledo - to name a few of the places where cool people ride Clem L bicycles. You might benefit from reading the Clem issue of Calling in Sick magazine. Although, it is most definitely California Cool. My Clem L convinced me I needed a Gus or Susie. You are correct about them being quite different though “familiar”. Love my Gus but miss the true step through nature of my Clem every time I ride it.

Sent from my iPhone

On May 15, 2023, at 3:34 PM, Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:



Well a hardy har har ..... ! I don't see the Susie and Clem-L as being anywhere near interchangeable. The Clem-L still looks like a girls bike to me, the Susie/Gus with the swooptube looks cool. The Gus/Susie also a whole lot more steering trail than all the other models, and it's unmistakable the difference in handling. Maybe the Clem-L is "California cool", but in Heartland America away from the big cities, it just doesn't relate. To each their own ! Nor do I see the Susie as a bike covered by any other model. If any model is a doppelganger, it's the Appaloosa for an Atlantis, minus the weird second TT on the larger sizes and paint.

While the swooptube to me is a whole lot more elegant than a straight one, however the latest Hillibike appears it will be accepted just peachy.

At the end of the day though, everyone rides a bike, regardless of appearances .So "disagreements" are like ripples of the Ocean. A wave here, a wave there, waves every-where..... no two are ever alike. Yet each and every wave is but the Ocean Itself. Surfs up baby, lets go for a ride ! ! !

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[Joe Bernard]

I've owned several Clem Ls and one Susie. The starkest differences I could find is the Susie has a higher "clear them rocks" BB shell and takes wider tires for that way cush ride. If there's a difference in steering it wasn't pronounced enough for me to notice but all Rivs steer great, I don't really think about it. Of course Susie has a special look with the swooptube and fillet brazing, if you love it and can find one in your size right now..buy it! 

[Richard Rose]

Two biggest differences (in my opinion) between a Clem L and either a Gus or Susie; the latter are not step through frames & they both have a significantly higher bottom bracket than the Clem. I think the Clem is accurately described as a “Hillibike”. Gus & Susie are legit mountain bikes. Love them both!

Sent from my iPhone

On May 15, 2023, at 8:10 PM, ssimarsawhney <ssimar....@gmail.com> wrote:

My guess would have been 1in threaded with thicker tubing, which feels like a clem. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/6f387ba3-fbf9-4d8b-ac4e-9ea2dad3e26cn%40googlegroups.com.

[Chris L]

RBW have stated at least once that the Hunqapillar will come back, but in a different form.  I hope that's what is coming in October.  

If they didn't make major changes to the Hunqapillar, a newer version would just be an Appaloosa.  Other than longer chainstays and probably heavier tubes, the Appaloosa is very, very similar to the old Hunqapillar, at least in the mid-sizes (ie, 54 Hunq, 55 Appaloosa).   I would love to ride my 54 Hunqapillar and the closest to the same size Appaloosa, back to back, to see how much difference the longer chainstays make.  

[Brian Turner]

Clem actually predates the Hillibike moniker. From my understanding, the term originated with Gus / Susie because they were most akin to the original mountain bikes that inspired them, but Rivendell didn’t want them perceived as something meant for big jumps and drops and the kind of stuff people typically do these days on a “mountain bike”. Since then, other models like Clem and to some extent Joe have fallen into that category.

On May 15, 2023, at 8:27 PM, Richard Rose <rmro...@gmail.com> wrote:

Two biggest differences (in my opinion) between a Clem L and either a Gus or Susie; the latter are not step through frames & they both have a significantly higher bottom bracket than the Clem. I think the Clem is accurately described as a “Hillibike”. Gus & Susie are legit mountain bikes. Love them both!

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/A30594EA-930D-4AE2-8445-2ED1D56EE5AA%40gmail.com.

[Joe Bernard]

Old rigid mountain bikes were the original impetus for Clem H and L, too. All those '80s/'90s MTBs we were finding cheap on Craigslist quickly became frightfully expensive when we (definitely me) started replacing worn parts and adding ridable bars and stems, the new/cheaper TIG'd Rivendell was the "why don't you just buy a new bike with all the right parts" answer. 

[Michael Baquerizo]

If they didn't make major changes to the Hunqapillar, a newer version would just be an Appaloosa.

this is what i tell myself all the time. always wanted a hunq, but ended up with an appa. i used to hate the long chain stays and i still prefer the hunq, but I i really like my appaloosa.

[Bones]

I am curious. It was mentioned in an email back in January, right before the last Susie/Gus shipment:

Tomorrow is the last chance to get a fillet brazed Gus or Susie. They're discontinued, not because we don't love 'em but because the fillet brazing is super time consuming for our frame manufacturer and because a lot of people find the two iterations of what's almost the same bike confusing. Hillibikes will return, but not in these forms.

I also took this screenshot around the same time. Maybe they were just using the name Susie as a placeholder. Maybe not. Of course someone could just give our friends a call to find out...

Bones

[lconley]

So "Susie Lugged" in June" has become "Susie/Wolbis/Gus combo Hillibike. Lugged." in October. OK, not likely to impact me, I have my Gus. But I do love lugged frames.....

As far as the Appaloosa vs. Hunqapillar comparison - the Hunqapillar has the best head badge by far - love those Trilobites, kinda wish my Bombadil had a Hunqapillar head badge.

Laing

[Brian Turner]

A few thoughts from the OP:

My guess is that it will be closer to Susie than Gus. This might just be my skewed perception, but I've gotten the feeling that of the two models, the Susie was the one that was more desirable, especially to those more steeped in the classic tradition of Riv bikes. Probably due mostly to the classic look of a 1" threaded steerer and the notion that it might be a less stiff, more forgiving ride than the Gus. Maybe it will have stouter tubing? As for the lugs, this is why I'm not so sure it will have a swoopy top tube... unless I'm mistaken, Rivendell has never joined a curvy tube and a straight tube with a lug. They seem to be always TIG welded or fillet brazed in those cases. So, maybe it will have more lugs on other parts of the frame, but if it has a swoopy top tube, I doubt there will be any lugs on it. Also, I can't see Riv spec'ing any special lugs for a threadless headtube, so I say it'll be 1" threaded.

I won't even address the "girls bike" comments.

Oddly enough, for as long as I have admired and lusted after the classic look of Rivendell's traditional lugged diamond frames, it was the first photo I saw of Grant's mustard-y Clem L (years ago now) that really made me want to make my first Rivendell purchase. Something about the look of that bike really sparked something in me. When the Hillibikes were introduced, I was heavily into bikepacking and the Gus seemed like it was the one Rivendell that would be perfect for me and the type of riding I enjoy most. It took a while, but I finally scored one just in time for them to be discontinued. I love the way it rides. I love the way it handles loaded. I love that it still seems to be the most "black sheep" of all the Rivendells ever produced. It's like a rebel within an already rebellious niche of bikes made by a company that has always bucked trends. It's such a cool, weird-ass bike and I love it.

-Brian

[Chris L]

The Hunqapillar does have a certain forbidden fruit mystique.  I don't think I've heard any other Riv model mentioned as often in the context of wishing it would come back.   

For me, the ultimate Riv would have been a 54 or 55 cm, 650b, single top-tube Bombadil.  I remember the 52 would have been my size, and too small, and the next largest size was way too big, and probably 700c, to boot.  I still may 650b my 54 Hunqapillar some day.  I'm guessing it wouldn't be hard to mostly hide disk brake tabs in elephant gray paint.

[Jason Fuller]

I really, really want it to be a mountain mixte.  That would give it the torsional stiffness that IMO a hillibike needs while still keeping vertical compliance, and the low standover Grant (and others!) prefer for an off-roader.  A mixte frame with 2.6" knobby tires and a nicely slacked out front end would be a beauty. 

[Jason Fuller]

(and yes, I picture the Crumbworks Chonk as I describe it!) 

[Brian Turner]

That Crumbworks Chonk looks amazing! I’ve been thinking about it ever since first seeing the photos. It’s like a mix between a Gus, a Platy, and a Jones Spaceframe. So cool and lovely curves!

On May 17, 2023, at 1:49 PM, Jason Fuller <jtf.f...@gmail.com> wrote:

(and yes, I picture the Crumbworks Chonk as I describe it!) 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/ec097ce2-a38f-4ef9-b862-c19607ca2fben%40googlegroups.com.

[Bill Lindsay]

Are you and Jason both misspelling it "CHONK" ?  I've read about the CHUNK?  Or is there another model actually called the CHONK?  

Assuming it's the CHUNK, I agree it's a cool looking bike.  It's like a step through, upright bars, version of Patrick Moore's "RBFD" (Road Bike For Dirt).  It's definitely not a mountain bike, though.  It's got road bike through axle spacing, and takes road bike disc brakes and rotors.  It's even got a 1" threaded steerer.  It's a disc brake Platypus, but it takes fatter tires.  The closest thing to a Rivendell is that it's a disc brake Susie Longbolts.  A svelte rider who knows how to ride light could do lots of dirt bombing on a disc brake Susie Longbolts.  It's definitely less stout than a Gus, in my opinion.  It's a very cool bike, and there's nothing quite like it.  Anybody who wanted a Susie but wished the Susie had disc brakes should be PUMPED, pending geo-charts of course.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA 

[Jason Fuller]

Right you are, Bill - I knew I was taking a guess as I couldn't recall which it was.  But figured folks would know what I meant :)   The only thing I don't like about it is the bottle bosses on the curved top tube - just doesn't jive with the otherwise highly elegant appearance - two on the top of the DT and one on the bottom of the DT seem like plenty, especially with the fork mounts too.  It's 100/142 axle?  Kind of surprising with the 2.8" clearance. 

I too would want threadless and more modern MTB axle standards for my dedicated off-road bike. I really, really want a Stooge mk6. 

[Doug H.]

I ride a Clem in the heart of the American South and it's macho enough for me, not that I need a macho bicycle. I chatted with a biker (motorcycle biker) at a gas station and he complimented the Clem and said it was cool. If you need a "man's bike" that says more about you than the bike I think. Shed those stereotypes and Just Ride.

Doug

[greenteadrinkers]

The Crumbworks Chunk looks thrilling! Has the gorgeous lines of a Susie and the DNA of a 0mm drop-bar'd dropper posted Tanglefoot Hardtack.

[Joe Bernard]

Indeed, I think a Riv mixte/step-thru looks like a Harley cruiser to the Harley folks. You start at the high pullback bars, then it slopes down and back to under the saddle, then back up to the saddle for the second peak and back down to the rear of the bike. And it's a stretched frame. Observe!

My 

I live in biker country and get a lot of nods from the Harley riders, they seem to instinctively react to the familiar form. 

[Joe Bernard]

Yes I found another thread to post a pic of my Rivendell on. Learn it, know it, live it 😜

[iamkeith]

The Chunk looks interesting, but I'm kind of not quite getting it.  It sort of looks like a Jones Spaceframe, but with too many seat stays, which would prevent it from having the wonderful vertical flex that the rear end of the spaceframe has.   It'a not unattractive -  I just tend to look for lineage of ideas and the original rationalle behind them.  Maybe it's enough just to be different and pretty.  

Here's where my mind goes though.  Not intended to be comprehensive or authoritative - just thinking about the "swoop-tube" and hoping the lugged susie keeps it (comparison pics for illustration and for fun):

- If fatback bent tubes on its fatbikes to get the necessary standover when your feet sink into deep snow, then Ritchey built on that idea in a more attractive way.... 

- If Rivendell took the functionality and their love of step-throughs, and raised the top tube a bit for rigidity and more versatile sizing, then Velo orange seized on the idea as an aesthetic.  

- Tanglefoot seemed to take the best of both ideas.  

 I'm sure there's many historical examples of all these, since no idea is new.  Or almost... 'caue then there's Jones.    He started out trying to get a non-suspension frame that flexed just enough to take the edge off of things,  and the low top tube came about as a sort of happy accident. 

[greenteadrinkers]

Keith - super cool summation of swoop tubes! That evolution brings me back to a bike design I learned about in a thread from another article about ATB on bikepacking.com about Geoff Apps and his short and high Cleland Aventura off-road design. No idea how many got produced, but looks like a super fun bike, would love to spend a day on one of these. Here's a YT video of the design in action. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbWuIHESe5M

[Garth]

The photos are nicely scaled Keith !

The Chunk curly tip tube thing looks like they decided to add "something" to distinguish it from a Susie/Gus. I won't say it really matches the angles though. It also doesn't have the front-center and reach that the S/G has, nor do any of the others. The Ritchey frame looks a little "too" short of front-center not to have your feet hit the tires, depending on how big your feet are and where you place them. My perspective though leans on the side of requiring very long top TT/F-C. I definitely prefer the sleek tubed simplicity and elegance of the Susie/Gus to any of the others. Myself I'll never get used to how disc brakes look. They may function great, but I find there's something lost in style when they're present. I love watching old pro racing videos with all the narrow tubed racing frames, with thin skinny tubular rims and tires. They're just so elegant, suspended in air but these seemingly tiny tubes and wheels.

On second thought, yeah, a Hillibike must have a swoop mid- tube or else it can't be called a Susie, however it's attached.

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 3:28:57 PM UTC-4 iamkeith wrote:

[Brian Turner]

Mackenzie, you had mentioned swoopy tubed bikes and lack of frame bag capacity… here’s a couple of good examples of using those spaces well. The Gus is mine; the Susie is not:

On May 18, 2023, at 4:53 PM, Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:



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