Sam sizing advice

[Will Horton]

I am 5'11" on a good day. My PBH is 82CM.

I really want a Sam but am not overly enthusiastic about running 650B wheels and tires. Would really prefer 700C. I have lots of parts on hand and all of it is 700C.

The challenge is that the 54cm Sam they sell these days requires minimum PBH of 83CM, if I go down to a 51cm Sam, they take 650B wheels.

Did Riv ever make a smaller Sam that is compatible with my 82PBH that was 700c?

Is there another model similar to the Sam that fits my requirements?

[J L]

Will,

I expect you are going to get many of the same responses so i’ll keep mine brief.

1) The PBH listings are guidelines. 82pbh should be fine on that bike.

2) Call Riv HQ and talk to them about your size concerns they are great to talk to.

3) We are all built different and yet 82cm PBH at 5’11” seems quite short in the legs. I suspect you have under measured. Measure again and keep pulling up as if you are going to lift yourself off the ground. I expect you will find another CM or two of PBH has been there all along. 

Cheers

Jason

SFCA

On Apr 23, 2021, at 5:42 PM, 'Will Horton' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



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[David Hays]

Will,

I second what Jason said.

I’m 5’ 71/2”. Maybe 5’8” on a good day with a tailwind.

I have a PBH of 83 and ride a 56cm Homer from the time they ran 650B.

I’m running Hetres and am quite comfortable with ‘space’ and fit.

Best.

David

Buffalo, NY 

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[Will Horton]

This is hilarious and you guys are awesome.

my PBH is indeed 83CM if I try to lift myself up off the ground. AAAAnd I just found out I am more like 5' 9 & a 1/4".

sounds like I would just qualify for the 54cm Sam which is perfect.

w

[aeroperf]

I’m 5’ 9” (used to be 5’ 10”) and measured my PBH at 83.  I measured it again to be sure I was doing it right, then again a couple of weeks later.
Every bicycle I had from 1975 on was 700c.  There was no way I was going to go 650b.  I ordered a Sam in 2015, and Will set me up with a 55 Cm frame even though I did not mention my aversion to 650b.  The SOH of that frame was listed at 83.3.

My Sam felt just a little “tall” for me.  Sliding off the seat forward at a stop took some getting used to.  I did adapt, however, and now the Sam feels like it is part of me when I ride.

Last year I got a 51 Cm Homer (650b), to see if a smaller frame would be better.  It is MUCH too small.  Don’t do that.

So I’m with J L.  Call Riv, and believe what they set you up with.  If they try to set you up with a frame that takes 650b, and you don’t want 650b, buy something else.

As for another model similar to a Sam, look for a Soma Saga.  A Platypus is also listed as “a country bike”, but it feels nothing like a Sam, while the Saga does.  I do think a good used Sam from the 2014 - 2017 era would be a good fit, and the 54 Cm probably would, too.  If you slide off the seat, be sure to land on your toes.  ;-)

[dougP]

Will:

Don't forget that tire size will impact stand over height.  For instance, 40 mm wide tires will be a bit smaller in diameter than 50 mm.  Don't know what the limit is for a Sam, but that is something to consider. 

dougP

[J S]

I’m now 5’5”, used to be 5’7”.  My 55 Bleriot is a tad larger (and tighter but not too tight) than my 51cm Sam.  My PBH is 80.6 (as close as I can get).  The 51 Sam is as big as I could go and I am using 48mm Rene Herse tires (Switchback Hill) with no issues. The Bleriot has 42mm tires on it.  Rivendell will always put you on the largest frame they believe will work for you.  I agree with this philosophy but you have to be careful and proactive.  With their reluctance to put standover heights in the specs  it makes things a bit more difficult for some.  

I really like the Sam and love 650b (27.5) wheel size.  I like being able to get a fatter tire on the bike and run them at 35psi.  

[Dominic Ryan]

Hi Will,

I was in exactly the same situation as you, 82PBH and I think they stated 83 as the minimum for the 55 Sam (I think the sizing has changed a bit now so not sure if it will make a difference). I ended up up going with the larger model (55 over 51), although it does feel a little taller than my other bikes, its totally rideable and enabled me to reuse a 700c wheel set I had around so win win! I do ride with set back bars so I guess it might be a different story with drops as it would be a fair reach.

I guess if you can try both of them it would be ideal....I know its not always that easy.

Dom

[Robert Blunt]

I am 5' 9" with a 79.5 pbh. I tried a 51 Sam with 650B wheels and it was way to small. I have a 54 Sam with 700c wheels and the fit is almost dialed in now with Ahearne map bars. The albatross bars had me too upright and I didn't feel comfortable on the saddle. I have a 56 Bleriot which is pretty dialed in with noodle bars. I mention it for the sake of comparison.

Robert Blunt

Pennington, NJ

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[Sean B.]

I'm 5'9" and have a PBH of 83cm. I spoke with Grant and Vince and they both suggested a 51 AHH for me. I do ride in a city, so a lot of stops at lights. The extra stand over does benefit the start and stop. YMMV.

[Joe Bernard]

As someone else mentioned, the reach is going to matter a lot. Hillborne is nominally a road bike that can work with dropbars so you're going to need the bigger frame anyway if you're using upright/reach-backers. 

[aeroperf]

And under the “if I knew then what I know now” department…
It is really tough to buy a boutique bike without having ridden it.  If you’re going to pay >$3000 for a fully tricked-out Rivendell, or ~$1500 for a frame+fork, you want to get it right.  So…

Do you have a bike you ride or have ridden that you think really fits you?  Try to find that bike on bikeinsights.com, then compare it to the Sams on the same site for stack and reach.  You can make an account that lets you modify the configuration - like bigger tires.
https://bikeinsights.com/compare?geometries=5b8578f548f3a30004789b21,5d250fb4ff3c94001746ed6e,

Take the minimum Sam that has 700c wheels (say a 54) and put out a request on this list to test ride one.  “Anybody near (your address) have a 54 Sam I can try?”  You’ll get more offers than you think.  Live near Atlanta?  Come and ride mine.

Find a Rivendell dealer, or ideally go to their store in Walnut Creek, and test ride everything you can.  You might find that a Sam isn’t quite what you want, but an AHH is.

And if you really want that 54 Sam, and your size is close, go get that 54 Sam and modify it until it is your perfect bike.  Seat height, stem length, grips, pedals, bars, tires.  You can change the whole feel of the bike in a lot of different ways.  This method is expensive, but it does result in a good set of tools.

[Jason Fuller]

Joe is quite right - and if you were a little shorter, I'd say whether to go 51 or 54 would depend on what handlebar setup you want to run, but at 5'11" even with your inseam I am very confident 54 is your size.  I'm 5'8.5" and 80 pbh and my 51 fits great with a short stem and drop bars, but I would need to max out the stem length to run even Albatross bars - and there is no way I could run L/T/Boscos, the bike would just be way too short for it.  Plus, I have lots of standover.  I would have gone 54 if I was planning to run upright bars, I think, although I'm the opposite on wheels - I wanted 650B, and am not interested in 700c.  

I am hoping that the Appaloosa gets a revamp to lengthen it akin to the Platys, so it can be a dedicated upright bar bike with more appropriate length. ie,  I think the 51 should have a ~610 ETT, while it currently has a 575.  Plus, that would separate it out from the Atlantis, which could still remain a drop bar-able touring bike.  I think I'm onto something here!  

[lconley]

Rivendells are sized on PBH. There is no direct constant correlation between overall height and PBH, if there were , there would be no reason to measure PBH, you could just go by your height. I am way out of the normal height to PBH ratio range - 6' tall with 83 PBH - short legs & long body - I actually need a custom frame - 54 seat tube, 63 effective top tube, not something you can find at a bike store or even in most standard Rivendells, the Mystery Bike and the Rosco Baby are the closest "production" Rivendells. For years I rode bikes that were too "big" (tall) for me, otherwise the handlebars were too close. I rode a double TT 56 Sam which was very, very tight standing over the top tube, but that is standing, not riding - for riding I needed the larger frame and still used a minimum 110 stem with drops.

Laing

Delray Beach FL

[Roberta]

Will,

I'm 5'7" with an 83cm pbh.  I've ridden Sams, but I own a 54.5 AHH and would be less happy on a smaller bike (I'm like Maia--hey, RivSister--bigger is better)  However, the top tube is close! 

Joel in this thread or another suggested getting someone to measure the stand over of Sam.   Like aeroperf, I rode a 51cm Sam and didn't feel it was quite right  for my PBH, which is both his and yours.  One time I was at Riv and threw my leg over an older 55 Sam and it was too tall for me.  Perhaps the new ones are slightly smaller, even with the bigger wheels.

Finally, someone here suggested a favor from the listers here for you to test ride their Sam.  I think that is a good idea.

Roberta

[J S]

The standover of my 51cm Sam with 48mm Switchback  Hill tires is about 30.75”. My PBH IS 80.6 so I have a bit of room.  Mt 55 cm Bleriot with 42mm tires is a bit over 31.25”  and is ok but tight.  The TT on the Bleriot is 1cm shorter than the Sam so I use a stem that is 1cm less.  

Hope this helps.  

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[J S]

So that means 78.1 cm vs. 79.4.  

[J S]

I should’ve mentioned the Bleriot  is the older Rivendell geometry so it’s more like what would be a 52 cm for the measurements today.  

[Will Horton]

Wow, overwhelming amount of responses. Much appreciated all!

I think that I will definitely need the 55 or 54 (buying used so will depend on what pops up) since I do plan to run upright bars of some kind.

Now just need to find one. This last weekend, there were at least 4x Sams that went up for sale across the country, all orange. Gives me hope I will find one soon.

[Howard Hatten]

https://bikeinsights.com/

This might be some help

Goin large on Rivendell bikes has always worked for me. 

Howard

Livonia Mi