Who is using bike lights?

[Joel]

2 close calls in one day. My red blinking cateye is useless in daylight.  I a interested in front and back lights to help me be more visible, your thoughts and experiences are welcome.

Thanks 

Joel

[Julian Westerhout]

Joel, 

Glad they were only close calls!   :( 

I use a dynamo hub with headlight and taillight on at all times on the bikes i ride most -- plus a blinky in the back, and an orange safety triangle hanging from my commuter's saddle. Pretty dorky, but hopefully pretty visible. 

I like dynamos plus LED lights because then I always have lights without ever worrying about charging, etc. 

Julian Westerhout

Bloomington, IL 

[Joel Stern]

Thanks Julian.  Me too on the close calls.  People think either it is just a bike, I can beat it before it gets here or my favorite, they are just stupid.  Now this does not take into account those not paying attention.  

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[Erik Wright]

I use Bontrager Flare R (rear) and Ion 350 (front) when I’m out on the open road for longer day rides. I use a dynamo front and little blinky rear for city riding. The Bontrager lights are BRIGHT day-rated lights; too bright for city riding at night, in my opinion.

Erik

Philly

[Patrick Moore]

Joel: I'm glad you were not hit, 

Ads appear from time to time advertising the "brightest tail light" and while I've not seen any recently I think NiteRider and Cygolight make 2 of the bright ones. But I wonder if bright lights, any more than neon-yellow clothing, will make much difference in bright sunlight -- "studies showed" that clothing color didn't. 

What happened?

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Eric Norris]

Joel:

There are many lights out there that will make you more visible to vehicles, but I wouldn’t bet my life on any of them. I believe there’s more safety in being aware of what’s happening around you at all times, wearing brightly colored/contrasting clothing, and assuming that motorists don’t see you.

If you *do* use lights bright enough to be seen in daylight, I beg you to think twice about using them at night. The new super-bright taillights, when used at night, make it impossible for anyone to ride behind you safely. All the person behind you can see is a bright red glow. 

I’ve ranted about this before, so I won’t go on much longer here. But … please be considerate of anyone behind you—and people coming at you on the bike trail and end up getting blasted by your daylight-bright headlight.

I recommend a taillight like the PDW “Daybot,” which offers a bright daytime option and a less bright (but still bright enough) nighttime setting that also provides longer runtimes (because no taillight will work with dead batteries).

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com

Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy

YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 

[Eric Norris]

Amen, brother. Problem is that too many riders use “day-rated” lights in the dark.

Like anything else, with taillights there is a point at which you have too much of a good thing. No, you don’t need a taillight that’s visible from a mile away!

Regarding headlights, I always recommend a high-quality focused light like the Edelux, which has a cutoff beam (similar to modern car headlights) that limits the light that hits the eyes of oncoming cars and bicycles. Most American-made headlights have a conical beam (like a flashlight) that sends as much light up into ongoing eyes as it does down to the road. Peter White goes into this topic in extensive detail on his web site.

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com

Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy

YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 

[Deacon Patrick]

I too am glad you are safe and sound. I second Eric's wisdom, and add that the super bright flashing day headlights that are more common overload my bludgeoned brain, and end rides when I've been caught unawares ... not good for people with neurological issues, and some of them may be driving oncoming cars.

We are in a constantly escalating "safety" war where "science" studies show that more sound/light/flash/spin attracts attention so is "safer." Now we have regular business trucks and trash trucks flashing lights everywhere they go, cyclists, and even some sirens on non-emergency vehicles, all of which leads to greater distraction not greater safety. Also, everyone out and about has a LOT on their mind right now and is very stressed, complicating the assessment equation at every point of interaction.

With abandon,

Patrick

On Thursday, August 20, 2020 at 4:58:14 PM UTC-6, Eric Norris wrote:

Joel:

There are many lights out there that will make you more visible to vehicles, but I wouldn’t bet my life on any of them. I believe there’s more safety in being aware of what’s happening around you at all times, wearing brightly colored/contrasting clothing, and assuming that motorists don’t see you.

If you *do* use lights bright enough to be seen in daylight, I beg you to think twice about using them at night. The new super-bright taillights, when used at night, make it impossible for anyone to ride behind you safely. All the person behind you can see is a bright red glow. 

I’ve ranted about this before, so I won’t go on much longer here. But … please be considerate of anyone behind you—and people coming at you on the bike trail and end up getting blasted by your daylight-bright headlight.

I recommend a taillight like the PDW “Daybot,” which offers a bright daytime option and a less bright (but still bright enough) nighttime setting that also provides longer runtimes (because no taillight will work with dead batteries).

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com

Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy

YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 

On Aug 20, 2020, at 2:55 PM, Joel <jrst...@gmail.com> wrote:

2 close calls in one day. My red blinking cateye is useless in daylight.  I a interested in front and back lights to help me be more visible, your thoughts and experiences are welcome.

Thanks 

Joel

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[lambbo]

Hi from NYC; Dynamo lights and a loud bell or two. I use running lights day and night, not super bright, just normal DYNAMO lights, pointed not into people's eyes but at the ground. I re-adjust the light if it gets dark and no one is around, easily by reaching towards my bar mounted headlight and adjusting while riding. The B&M tail light has a little reserve and stays on at lights and whatnot, very useful for not getting run over while stopped and checking your phone or something.

I think it's really that simple...dynamo running lights that don't blind and are always on, and a loud bell that you ring every time you cross an intersection or see someone.

[Joel Stern]

Some lady coming out of a store parking light decided she could beat me (going straight on the road) less than 200 feet away.  Really pissed me off.  Then on my next turn a white BMW driven by a kid from another lot came up really fast trying to avoid stopping before turning.  I usually cut through a lot to a quiet area then get on the bike path to a road less travelled in the quiet suburbs where there are 

no shops.  Will be doing that again.  These drivers are just selfish.  I always look for cyclist to give them right if way,  

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[Joel Stern]

Thanks Eric.  I don’t ride at night, now that I am retired I get out early as I can especially in the heat.  

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[Joel Stern]

I read a study that pretty much said that 

https://www.roadbikerider.com/incisive-new-studies-on-cyclist-visibility-d3/

On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 6:55 PM Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Joel Stern]

Thanks everyone for your thoughtful replies.  I have great info and lights to now look at.  I never used lights during the day, that very well might change.  My old Cateye blinking red light is useless in daylight.  I’ve seen many riders using lights since returning to riding, not a a bad idea but I doubt it will protect me from testers, which was the cause of my 2010 car accident which kept me off the bike till recently.  

[Robert Tilley]

Lights aren't going to do anything to prevent things like that. I don't run daytime lights here and at night I primarily use dynamo lights with cutoff and non-blinking non-super bright rear lights. I have few issues with drivers but people here are used to bikes on the road. I do get an occasional driver who does something stupid but it's not the norm.

The biggest issue here is distracted driving. Lights won't help there either since you actually need to be looking at the road to be able to notice the lights.

Robert Tilley

San Diego, CA

Sent from my BlackBerry - the most secure mobile device

From: jrst...@gmail.com Sent: August 20, 2020 4:55 PM To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com Reply-to: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [RBW] Who is using bike lights?

Some lady coming out of a store parking light decided she could beat me (going straight on the road) less than 200 feet away.  Really pissed me off.  Then on my next turn a white BMW driven by a kid from another lot came up really fast trying to avoid stopping before turning.  I usually cut through a lot to a quiet area then get on the bike path to a road less travelled in the quiet suburbs where there are 

no shops.  Will be doing that again.  These drivers are just selfish.  I always look for cyclist to give them right if way,  

On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 6:55 PM Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

Joel: I'm glad you were not hit, 

Ads appear from time to time advertising the "brightest tail light" and while I've not seen any recently I think NiteRider and Cygolight make 2 of the bright ones. But I wonder if bright lights, any more than neon-yellow clothing, will make much difference in bright sunlight -- "studies showed" that clothing color didn't. 

What happened?

On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 3:55 PM Joel <jrst...@gmail.com> wrote:

2 close calls in one day. My red blinking cateye is useless in daylight.  I a interested in front and back lights to help me be more visible, your thoughts and experiences are welcome.

Thanks 

Joel

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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[Deacon Patrick]

Lights won't help these situations, only remaining calm and mindful and not entering into the rush that they are. Easier said than done sometimes.

With abandon,

Patrick

On Thursday, August 20, 2020 at 5:55:07 PM UTC-6, Joel wrote:

Some lady coming out of a store parking light decided she could beat me (going straight on the road) less than 200 feet away.  Really pissed me off.  Then on my next turn a white BMW driven by a kid from another lot came up really fast trying to avoid stopping before turning.  I usually cut through a lot to a quiet area then get on the bike path to a road less travelled in the quiet suburbs where there are 

no shops.  Will be doing that again.  These drivers are just selfish.  I always look for cyclist to give them right if way,  

On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 6:55 PM Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

Joel: I'm glad you were not hit, 

Ads appear from time to time advertising the "brightest tail light" and while I've not seen any recently I think NiteRider and Cygolight make 2 of the bright ones. But I wonder if bright lights, any more than neon-yellow clothing, will make much difference in bright sunlight -- "studies showed" that clothing color didn't. 

What happened?

On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 3:55 PM Joel <jrst...@gmail.com> wrote:

2 close calls in one day. My red blinking cateye is useless in daylight.  I a interested in front and back lights to help me be more visible, your thoughts and experiences are welcome.

Thanks 

Joel

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Patrick Moore

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[Patrick Moore]

Bright lights aren't going to help with these idiots, at least during daylight*. I've had the same thing happen to me; am pleased when I get close enough to whack the rear fender as the car goes by as I've managed to do once or twice; have so far refrained from throwing something hard and heavy.

Nothing but "watch out" helps with this sort of fool, though perhaps a rigid glare (not necessarily unfriendly; just rigid; I do this) right at the driver's eye might encourage a bit of self restraint, if you catch the driver's eye in time.

* At night, entirely unfocused glare, if bright enough (NiteRider arc light system, eg) in my experience, can make oncoming drivers very cautious; I've had them scraping the left curb as they went by on residential streets. But not good for oncoming cyclists, of course.

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[Patrick Moore]

I read just the opposite, but I've forgotten the source.

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[Patrick Moore]

After I actually read the thing ... Moving legs, not stationary torso -- big difference! Likewise, blinkies and not steady lights. I've read similar things elsewhere, for example about lights mounted on the legs, which apparently are more noticeable to drivers than lights mounted on the bike. 

I installed reflective "dots" on the cranks of my errand bike, and make reflective ankle bands a regular piece of night time kit.

During the day, I guess, from this study, the same principle holds.

On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 5:57 PM Joel Stern <jrst...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Nick Payne]

I have the Niterider Solas on several bikes. I use it in blinking mode, and it's easily visible from several hundred metres away in bright sunlight. It also has an optional seatstay mount that you can use, which is another plus in my book, as I use Carradice or similar saddlebags on most of my bikes, and the normal seatpost mount can't be used with a large saddlebag.

I don't bother with front lights for daytime riding.

Nick

[aeroperf]

Interesting subject all around.

Airplane studies, for both the Air Force and the FAA, indicate that 4 cycles per second is the optimum flash rate for getting a pilot’s attention.  I use a Planet Bike Beamer 80 for the front, and Planet Bike Grateful Red taillight, both on quick flash mode.  They let folk know I’m there, without blinding anybody.  But here in the US I try to stay on the bike trail and off the roads.

German bikes (at least 2002 - 2005 when I lived there) were required to come with a head and tail light, generally dynamo driven with those little snap-down-on-your-tire dynamos.  They were also required to have reflectors in the spokes and reflectors front and rear on the pedals.  You could always take these off, but that’s the way they were sold.  Apparently a study had been done and this was determined to be the most cost effective set of safety items, for both day and night.
For road touring, we’d add a light fluorescent green vest for daylight, and sometimes a pair of reflective ankle straps for night.  Dorky, sure, but you can see those vests pretty well on a moving bicyclist.

I would say that US drivers have an order of magnitude less consideration for bicyclists than their European counterparts.  If I do plan on going on the road here for any distance, I still take that dorky green vest.  

[Joel Stern]

Thanks.  You are right about US drivers, Unless they also are cyclists most are clueless 

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[Joel Stern]

Thanks Nick 

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[Brian Campbell]

In addition to using a generator powered headlight and taillight in "always on mode", I also use one of these:

https://www.rivbike.com/collections/odds-ends/products/miny-mini-mine-reflecto-triangle-minny

I have had more than one passing driver mention that they noticed it.

On Friday, August 21, 2020 at 5:11:08 PM UTC-4, Joel wrote:

Thanks.  You are right about US drivers, Unless they also are cyclists most are clueless 

On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 4:36 PM aeroperf <dore...@comcast.net> wrote:

Interesting subject all around.

Airplane studies, for both the Air Force and the FAA, indicate that 4 cycles per second is the optimum flash rate for getting a pilot’s attention.  I use a Planet Bike Beamer 80 for the front, and Planet Bike Grateful Red taillight, both on quick flash mode.  They let folk know I’m there, without blinding anybody.  But here in the US I try to stay on the bike trail and off the roads.

German bikes (at least 2002 - 2005 when I lived there) were required to come with a head and tail light, generally dynamo driven with those little snap-down-on-your-tire dynamos.  They were also required to have reflectors in the spokes and reflectors front and rear on the pedals.  You could always take these off, but that’s the way they were sold.  Apparently a study had been done and this was determined to be the most cost effective set of safety items, for both day and night.
For road touring, we’d add a light fluorescent green vest for daylight, and sometimes a pair of reflective ankle straps for night.  Dorky, sure, but you can see those vests pretty well on a moving bicyclist.

I would say that US drivers have an order of magnitude less consideration for bicyclists than their European counterparts.  If I do plan on going on the road here for any distance, I still take that dorky green vest.  

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[Toshi Takeuchi]

The study referenced below asked the viewers when they were confident they saw a cyclist.

The study did not ask when they saw a potential road hazard/something to watch out for.

Therefore they could see a bright shirt and think, well maybe it's a pedestrian or a construction worker, but not a cyclist. 

--However, practically speaking, it is important to note that they saw it and it is a potential hazard that they should not hit.  The driver doesn't have to know it's a cyclist to know that you don't want to run into it! 

--Don't get the impression that a black shirt is as good as a fluorescent shirt because it didn't help you get recognized as a cyclist any better.  That fluorescent shirt is going to tell the drivers don't run into me (whether it's a pedestrian, cyclist or construction worker!) much better than a black shirt, and this study didn't test for that.

Toshi

Toshi

 

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[Joel Stern]

Yeah, it had flaws for sure .  I’ve lost all of my words should say giving away all of my cycling jerseys and I’m gonna need to pick up some bright colored T-shirts and other things to be seen when I’m riding. I don’t ride at night so that’s not an issue but these people should be able to see me. And of course we all know that’s really not gonna help all that much because people can be looking at their phones and doing a variety of other things.

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[David Hays]

Joel,

Another thing I find critical to feeling safe and I’m not sure if anyone brought it up is a mirror.

It helps so much to be aware of things especially as one's flexibility isn’t what it once was.

David 

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[Patrick Moore]

Brian: Sincere question: Was this during the day that drivers noticed this so well?

[Joel Stern]

David, I always use a mirror, feel naked with out one. I have the kind that goes on a pair of glasses. For me this makes a real difference. I found a decent one made in the USA on amazon if you need a link let me know. I had one of the Chuck Harris ones that rivendell sold, still have one that fits on a bike helmet that I don't use. I lost that one for my glasses, I loved that mirror. 

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[Joel Stern]

Patrick, I think he is referring to the study I posted above. It is not on my computer but on my ipad or I would post it here. It is under one of my posts.  Here it is,

https://www.roadbikerider.com/incisive-new-studies-on-cyclist-visibility-d3/

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[Patrick Moore]

I'd like confirmation that the drivers who said they noticed him with that reflector noticed it during the day -- if that was the case. I use one of those triangles at night, but haven't been using it during our (very bright) daylight.

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[Deacon Patrick]

I came up with my daylight visibility strategy from observing redwing blackbirds, which I always see easily from afar, whether still or in flight, be they in shadow or sunlight or cloudy/dim light. Black body, with a surprisingly small patch of red, bordered on one side by yellow. That's it. So...

I wear red. But red fades, especially with summer cotton shirts. So I add a red bandana around my neck. My socks are red, and that's what my wife says she sees first from afar. A safety triangle on the saddle bag. No lights except solid front and rear on foggy/stormy days. Combined with "smile and wave" and "ride in the right tire track" on anything less than 4' shoulders, and the biggest danger is cars passing me in the other lane despite oncoming traffic because this strategy works so well.

I've no idea how this translates from the twisty backroads I ride (though we have every increasing traffic, especially now, still working a charm) to city cycling.

With abandon,

Patrick 

[Joel Stern]

That does it, I’m getting red socks, seriously. Also a good excuse for red T’s.  Thanks Deacon.  

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[masmojo]

I don't mind a blinking red rear in the day to help me get the attention of cars approaching from behind, BUT overall I like the Bright, Steady, Front and rear light. Often If my front light stops working for some reason, I discover it, because I notice people pulling out in front of me where normally they wouldn't. A dynamo is indispensable in my opinion; mine is on ALL the time, I never turn it off. Lights like the B&M, Supernova, Edelux, Etc. are great, but really a 40Lux light can be gotten for less than $40. and gives out just enough light to be able to see OK at night and ensure you are seen in the day.

Just my opinion, but I think blinking lights at night are drunk magnets; they are attracted to the pulsing light for some reason?

[Eric Floden]

For much of the 1970s I worked in motorcycle safety for a variety of employers*. And I got familiar with the work of Dr. Harry Hurt. (Ja, funny name for motorcycle safety researcher...)

I got to read his papers as they were issued, and my own takeaway is this: road users do not FAIL to see other users**

 - they rank them in a hierarchy, and then there is a continuum of how to use this hierarchy. Some drivers are responsible and follow the rules of the road, but many unconsciuosly defer only to those higher up the food chain. That may vary with fatigue, in attention, and so on. If you look like a menacing thug on a loud v-twin, you do get respect. If you look less dangerous, then you get less respect.

(I am happy to wear a black cycling jacket as I think there is an element of " menace " to it that increases my safety factor. I also do what I can to be visible with lights on at all times, so I am touching all the bases.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurt_Report

* I was so lucky to have worked for Stuart Munro. For those who have heard his name, he really was an amazing guy

https://canadianmotorcyclehalloffame.ca/inductees/2013/stuart-munro

** this was written before texting and such, so maybe no longer completely accurate

[Brian Campbell]

Patrick,

Yes. I think, for many, it reminds them of farm or construction equipment and they are pre-disposed to notice it. I have no proof of that but I have also found drivers giving me a bit more room, even in big pickup trucks. That did not always seem to be the case previously.

 Again, I have no proof of any of this, just an observation.

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks; good to know! I'm fortunate not to have to commute on traffic arteries during rush hour -- work at home -- but I did so for years, and while I was pretty well seasoned at traffic riding, any aid to visibility was and is still welcome. I use to keep a reflective triangle on the back of my saddlebags day as well as night, but had no real evidence that it worked during the day.

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[George Schick]

A couple of weeks ago I was riding down a shady stretch of an MUP when up ahead I saw a very bright light coming towards me.  Since this path is frequented by power line repair personnel as well as occasional police patrols, I assumed that it was one of their vehicles and was preparing to pull over to the side.  As it approached it became brighter and brighter until it got to the point where it was so blindingly bright that I couldn't stare in its direction  anymore.  Turned out that it was another cyclist coming toward me with an excessively bright headlight, aimed straight down the path.  Now, one would think that if someone who would have to ride a bike with that kind of forward-looking warning device (and I'm not even sure why) would at least have it pointed slightly toward the ground and not straight ahead, blinding on-coming people.  

[Tom Horton]

I would check out dinotte lights, made in u.s.a., expensive, but very bright and very durable. they make a couple amber front lights that are highly visible without being too obnoxious to oncoming traffic...one can even work as a headlight in full dark on the road.  I combine them with dynamo lights, for which peter white's website is a good resource. I own several dinottes and have used a couple for more than 6 years.  usb rechargeable for the most part.

[Peter White]

I think Dinotte is out of business. In the past few months I've had numerous telephone calls from people telling me they placed an order through the Dinotte website, paid for the order, and then got nothing. Sounds like the payment system is still working but nothing else. They can't contact anybody at the company.

PJW

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Peter White

[ascpgh]

"Day rated" lighting has been heavily abused into the dusk and dark by consumer grade cyclists, each flash burning a point of your retina out of service until adequate refractory time has allowed it to normalize. 

A drivers field of vision in the daytime is a vast image with lots of complexity that can be data overload. A point of light, flashing or solid, being noted, recognized and acknowledged by action in that setting is not the best bet. Presenting a larger area of contrast is the best tool for getting drivers to see you in that image. The nominal brain function they demonstrate at the wheel is on what they are driving (their lane) and what they do not (the lines, the grass, objects, etc.). You want to graduate to the latter by your choices. That driver's image processing of you in the roadway, recognizing something they do not want to drive on depends on their processing that image with either your nearly laser pointer tail light or a neon Hi-Viz vest. If it's daylight, I'm going with the vest.   

One situation not fully aided by high visibility or reflective "safety" vests is fog. I had a near miss event with a soldier directing traffic in full "safety" garb along a public roadway at a vehicle recovery scene. I came immediately to assess and as I pulled up I saw how the reflective vests on the soldiers were invisible, headlight output was so diffused by the fog and what little reached the reflective cloth was diffused with nothing defining returning to my eyes. I could only make out the vests in the growing ambience of dawn's light as the sun neared rising. After that,  if fog was present we added cyalume light sticks in an elastic band sewn like a bandolier for bullets around the vests. Light having to go one way was a more visible precaution and was seen from greater distance than the highest level reflective material, even if local buffoons drove past multiple vehicles with flashing four ways parked both to provide alert to oncoming vehicles and provide cover to the dismounted.

There is a waiting room in Hell with a bench reserved for cyclists who ride in the dusk or dark of night with daytime flashing lights, reservations made with the intently redeemable bad karma their harm did to other cyclists trying to follow them.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

On Thursday, August 20, 2020 at 6:58:14 PM UTC-4 campyo...@me.com wrote:

Joel:

There are many lights out there that will make you more visible to vehicles, but I wouldn’t bet my life on any of them. I believe there’s more safety in being aware of what’s happening around you at all times, wearing brightly colored/contrasting clothing, and assuming that motorists don’t see you.

If you *do* use lights bright enough to be seen in daylight, I beg you to think twice about using them at night. The new super-bright taillights, when used at night, make it impossible for anyone to ride behind you safely. All the person behind you can see is a bright red glow. 

I’ve ranted about this before, so I won’t go on much longer here. But … please be considerate of anyone behind you—and people coming at you on the bike trail and end up getting blasted by your daylight-bright headlight.

I recommend a taillight like the PDW “Daybot,” which offers a bright daytime option and a less bright (but still bright enough) nighttime setting that also provides longer runtimes (because no taillight will work with dead batteries).

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com

Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy

YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 

On Aug 20, 2020, at 2:55 PM, Joel <jrst...@gmail.com> wrote:

2 close calls in one day. My red blinking cateye is useless in daylight.  I a interested in front and back lights to help me be more visible, your thoughts and experiences are welcome.

Thanks 

Joel

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[ascpgh]

Autocorrect error: should have been "...instantly redeemable bad karma..." 

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Eric Norris]

Amen, brother.

Eric N
www.CampyOnly.com
CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com
Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy

[Tom Horton]

Oh crap  that s a real shame  no warning

Sent from my iPhone

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[Benz Ouyang, Sunnyvale, CA]

With respect to visibility and lighting, I read somewhere that overall visibility is correlated with the size of the light, rather than its intensity. This made sense to me because lights don't have infinite energy supplies, so your 1 watt of LED light energy can be concentrated into one small cone (beam?) of retina-searing capability, or diffused into a wide-angle slab that has a higher chance of being noticed by those who are not exactly in the cone of blindness. In fact, all motorized vehicles appear to have the diffused type of light, even if some can be diffused and bright.

The usual light marketing copies often remind me of way back, when computers were marketed solely on their clock speed instead of actual ability to function in a useful manner. We see lumen being bandied about all the time to sell lights, but that is a fairly useless metric because having a lot of light doesn't mean that light is being put to good use; what's useful is lux at a specific distance (let's say 10m), like with StVZO standards.

But all of these are passive devices. What we really need are more active mechanisms, like higher driver proficiency and awareness. I've read somewhere that the #1 safety factor for cyclists (as far as bicycle-car interaction) is drivers actually looking for cyclists. Andy Cheatham kind of eluded to this with the discussion of "vast image with lots of complexity that can be data overload". I often bring in the example where one will not register something that the brain is not primed to look for, even if one technically sees it. To address this will require more cyclist presence on the road to acclimate drivers, and that won't happen unless drivers are acclimated and thus present less of an apparent risk to cyclist. So Catch-22.

[Peter White]

I'm not so sure that having drivers more used to cyclists is all that helpful. I grew up in Boston and spent much of my adult life in the suburbs west of Boston; 1974 to 2002. Since then I've lived in a small town in south/central New Hampshire. It's very hilly around here so most of the natives have no interest in cycling. On a typical 30 mile ride on a weekend, I might see two or three other cyclists. But the drivers are wonderful here. On our narrow winding roads they happily wait until it's safe to pass and it's extremely rare for someone to pass within three feet of me.

Occasionally I go south to ride with friends west of Boston. There are cyclists everywhere. And the drivers barely notice us. They think nothing of passing with only a foot of clearance at 40mph!

So I think that there's some other factor involved.

PJW

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Peter White

[Lynn Haas]

Based on driver behavior, my most high-viz outfit is a black dress suit and heels.

I have a Cycliq 6 (and a 12 up front) and I could swear that daytime drivers behind me know that that thing is a camera. I don't turn on the light, just the camera, and it has a rotating indicator light. Impatient drivers wanting to turn right on red seemed to suddenly vanish from the road the day I got it. I also really enjoy being able to share interesting things I see on my rides without needing to whip out my smartphone and open the camera.

[George Schick]

What Peter says.  I'm reminded in particular of a discussion I had with some of my farmer cousins who live in rural SE Missouri, which has very hilly, winding back roads.  They were complaining about not being able to see cyclists when they came roaring over one of those hills or bends until they were right on top of them.  Never mind loose cattle, school buses, tractors, etc., it was those $%&*# cyclists who created the problem in their mind's eye.  And from what I've read on various blogs, anti-cyclist attitudes in that state are echoed all the way to their legislature.  At one point I saw an article posted where some antagonistic congressman wanted to pass a law requiring cyclists to have a 15 foot flag mounted on their bikes so it could be seen by the hundreds of back woods drivers who grew up learning to negotiate those hills and curves like moonshiners on the run from revenuers.  I even saw it escalate to the point where that same congressman wanted a law passed that allowed ATV vehicles to use the same paths as cyclists.  In that kind of environment it does not matter what kind of light(s) one is using, the "public" is simply against you and will drive with little respect for your presence on the roads.

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[Jason Fuller]

I like using these for being attention-grabbing in lower light conditions (in addition to standard headlight / taillight); in brighter light I would say the safety triangles / safety pizza is as good a line of defense as you can hope for. Other than just avoiding higher traffic streets at all costs. 

https://www.mec.ca/en/product/6005-033/SpokeLit-Rechargeable-Wheel-Light-Disc-O-Sele 

 

[Matthew Williams]

I'm using these Rindow bullet lights, front and rear. 

I also wear a fluorescent yellow reflective vest, helmet, and cuffs. Dorky, sure--but I've had too many close calls with distracted, careless, aggressive, or inconsiderate drivers. As others have noted, our safety depends on drivers giving us space--and to do that, they have to see us. 

Here's a shirt I designed to address this problem--if folks are interested, get at me and I'll set up an on-demand shirt printing shop.

[Josh Brown]

Thanks for the heads up, Peter! 

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[Joel]

A picture of these was posted, here is the link.

3feetplease.com

[masmojo]

On Monday, August 24, 2020 at 11:04:36 AM UTC-5, Benz Ouyang, Sunnyvale, CA wrote:

With respect to visibility and lighting, I read somewhere that overall visibility is correlated with the size of the light, rather than its intensity. This made sense to me because lights don't have infinite energy supplies, so your 1 watt of LED light energy can be concentrated into one small cone (beam?) of retina-searing capability, or diffused into a wide-angle slab that has a higher chance of being noticed by those who are not exactly in the cone of blindness. In fact, all motorized vehicles appear to have the diffused type of light, even if some can be diffused and bright.

The usual light marketing copies often remind me of way back, when computers were marketed solely on their clock speed instead of actual ability to function in a useful manner. We see lumen being bandied about all the time to sell lights, but that is a fairly useless metric because having a lot of light doesn't mean that light is being put to good use; what's useful is lux at a specific distance (let's say 10m), like with StVZO standards.

Yes, Lumens is not really relevant to overall visibility or the ability to see at night and is merely a measure of Brightness or Intensity, Overall visibility is represented by the LUX measurement which actually measures the area of usable illumination. Most German manufacturers use this rating system, but some manufacturers don't (to my knowledge) I have some SuperNova lights that I like quite a bit and their advertising would make it sound like they would scorch the surface of the earth, but they don't really seem any brighter that my 70LUX B&M's!!??  All the ratings that I see for them are in Lumens not Lux?

One thing I always say and apologizes if you've heard it before, " 4 things that should require an IQ test & don't: Getting a Drivers License, Voting, Jury Duty, and buying a gun." Maybe you could add getting a marriage certificate and/or having Kids? LOL

[Patrick Moore]

Speaking of blinding lights contrasted with useful illumination: Back about 2002 or so I bought NiteRider's then brand-new, state-of-art, truly dentist-level-price arc light system, headlamp and tail lamp (was the tail lamp an early LED? I forget). That thing was so bright that, when I rode down our residential street, oncoming cars more than once pulled waaaay over to the opposite curb; and one night, riding through the Fairgrounds on the way home, a cop yelled, "That is one bright light!" -- and we all know that cops are hard to impress.

But the beam was unfocused, and the nearfield brightness basically ruined distance vision. I got rid of it because the damned thing kept breaking, and went to the other side of the chart with 2 X 4-AA Vistalight or whatever it was $25 first-gen LED lights strapped to each fork leg; watts and lumens a fraction of what they replaces, but to my surprise and pleasure, providing as much useful illumination as the NR system costing 8X as much.

The 1,200 lumen (high; 600 low) K-Lite is much the same, not as bright of course, but I do welcome this indiscriminate blanket of light when riding through bosque thicket-tunnels at night.

Aside: philosophical musing; delete if you are of a purely practical mind. Speaking of "lumens" and even "lux" and "candlepower:" I was thinking about this recently; each of these metrics -- some more relevant to real night illumination than others -- are all indirect means (= "middle") of applying discrete quantity (this means "counting" because that is what you do with number) to something inherently non-quantitative by means of an intervening magnitude or continuous quantity; similar to describing "red" in terms of wavelength by means of a patch of red on the wall. "Illumination" in the sense of "how well does this let me see?" is non-quantitative and refers back to (resolves to) the primal experience of seeing at night; just as "red" inescapably means "this particular experience of seeing," and every subsequent definition ineluctably refers back to such primary experience, on pain of meaning nothing -- something often forgotten. So there. End musing.

On Sun, Sep 6, 2020 at 11:44 AM masmojo <mas...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

... Yes, Lumens is not really relevant to overall visibility or the ability to see at night and is merely a measure of Brightness or Intensity, Overall visibility is represented by the LUX measurement which actually measures the area of usable illumination. Most German manufacturers use this rating system, but some manufacturers don't (to my knowledge) I have some SuperNova lights that I like quite a bit and their advertising would make it sound like they would scorch the surface of the earth, but they don't really seem any brighter that my 70LUX B&M's!!??  All the ratings that I see for them are in Lumens not Lux?

One thing I always say and apologizes if you've heard it before, " 4 things that should require an IQ test & don't: Getting a Drivers License, Voting, Jury Duty, and buying a gun." Maybe you could add getting a marriage certificate and/or having Kids? LOL